In Person; James W. Rouse

A. Young person is brought all Marylanders through general support grants made possible by Waverley press incorporated that Williams and Wilkins company gasoline stations and the members of the Maryland Center for Public Broadcasting. This beautiful country is part of Maryland's Eastern Shore. A few years ago a young man named Jim Rouse left his boyhood home here and moved away. He's back now. At least a large portion of the time and the shore is still something special

to him. Eighteen years ago he was planning to build an entire city from nothing. And 15 years ago that city was born. It's time for a 15th birthday for the famous Columbia Maryland and perhaps time for some reflection in person. Mortgage banker shopping mall entrepreneur civic leader and developer of Columbia Maryland Mr. James Rouse. It was one of six children in Easton Maryland. He studied at the University of Hawaii and the University of Virginia and his law degree is from the University of Maryland. His first job was with the Federal Housing Authority. And from that to the

development of his own mortgage banking company. After that the building of shopping centers across the country the formulation of some cogent philosophies about the importance of American cities old and new and the remarkable realization of some huge dream. And of course that great achievement. Time magazine cover story. General long the way years ago 50 years ago did you ever have a moment when you said development of Columbia Maryland just isn't worth all this trouble. I'm going to let it go. Well I don't know if I ever had such a moment as a as a developer you can't honor those moments if they occur you you can't. You have to look upon that whatever it is that would cause that to be a hurdle to be overcome rather than a roadblock to be honored. So that I can't recollect any said moment must have been some huge hurdles now. Well there were some huge

hurdles there was the time I remember when we've been working on. We had done the planning we were working on the zoning we were carefully with the county government and we had a whole new kind of zoning resolution Newtown district zoning and to go in and at five o'clock one afternoon we received a call from the Howard County Times saying a county council has the council to the county commissioners has just come in and said that your entire zoning proposal is unconstitutional and unlawful and must be set aside. And that was after we had several million dollars invested in it so that I can remember going to our group with that message and. Discouragement and then saying that well this is this is maybe the opportunity we've needed because we've been the big dog and now we are we're the people that are underneath and we'll find out whether there's any

real support for this idea and support for what we're trying to prove. What was the original purpose of taking this incredible amount of rural and farm land and just turning it into a wonderful city. We had worked in financing all kinds of development doing development ourselves. Seeing all of the pieces of development cost a two constituted this lamentable sprawl by which we were growing the American city. Here a church that highway here we just it was aimless mindless process and we began asking ourselves this this doesn't make sense isn't our way of planning for the growth of the city and rational turns to account for what's going to happen all of its pieces where people are going to live go to school go to church work and

put it together and. And they are rational plan and. As we look to Baltimore-Washington we said is it's reasonably predictable that this area's going to add a million people over the next 20 years. It shouldn't be too big a task to take 100000 of that growth and organize it sensibly instead of aimlessly. So once we asked that question then we set about seeing if it could be done. Where. Would you do things differently if you knew then what you know now. Not much differently. I think we've had some disappointments transportation system didn't work as we as all of our engineering study said it would. We had the classic disappointment in transportation. I don't know what we would do but it's there. There is a transportation system in most outlying communities don't have a transportation system. I would like to think that we might have somehow been able to have someone to the

Capitol to do a really useful modern inventive system of public transportation. And I'm not sure they would have the money to do that. If I were doing on a Columbia today with where we learned about our issues in America I would want to see a lot more money going into experimentation with things like solid waste disposal solar energy. But these were these were not of those times back in the middle 60s. I would have wished that we could have provided better for lower income housing. But we did provide for it back then by the systems available to us we had a goal of 10 percent of our housing to be subsidized. And were achieving it and then all of the credit subsidies in the ways of doing that were withdrawn.

I feel very good about the results. I feel very good about the planning we work like the dickens on the planning and we produced but I think it was an authentic planned. And the underlying authenticity of it is what has generated what is there today. Back then you planned for 100000 people by yourself and were up to something a little over 60000. Now is that is that a disappointment or a completely understandable. Well it's both a disappointment and understandable but it's a big disappointment. We we were we were doing fine. We were up to that pace until the huge recession of 74 76 which just knocked the whole homebuilding business flat. And as we began to recover in 1977 and then we moved on and then we run into the current recession and the home building business again knocked flat.

Those those experiences have have caused that pace to get off the track. But but it will become a hundred thousand little it'll be the nineteen nineties instead of the 1980s it'll be probably 10 years behind. Well there are some real problems I guess they can be called in Colombia and it did come about when when the large numbers of people live anywhere I guess. And those that complain that it's not a perfect city. Are talking generally about the mass transit which you've mentioned. Crime. Schools closing. Apartments going to condominium. Are these the areas that will require attention in the next 15 years primarily. Sure. Most of the people who claim it's not a perfect city are generally people outside of Columbia who don't understand that it never was intended to be a perfect city. We had a back in the planning days we used to strain over one

aspect of the plan and development program in another and we would say to ourselves look we're not trying to plan a perfect city we're trying to plan a better city. So we never kid ourselves that it was possible to account for the human condition. So I'd ideally that there would be no problems. Many of the problems that we have in the country exist everywhere. Crime drugs alcohol. These these come out of a condition in our civilization that we we are managing very well and they exist in Colombia. In general however I think that the sense of family the sense of community is very strong and to build that. Well that was a very conscious goal. Our goal was to have a real city. To respect the law and and to create an environment that would

support the life and growth of the individual in the family. And we worked at that in the pre planning stages we had. Fourteen people came together with us drawn from the behavioral sciences and from education health and religion. And met with us every two weeks for two days a night for four months to explore one of the conditions that make for for community for success a victory for tolerance for openness and one of the conditions that that are de visite and create loneliness and a sense of Malays. What are these conditions and how can we deal with them. And and that we came out of that I think with an awareness that scale. Physical scale was crucial to create a place that had a center at the smallest possible numbers and where people would come together in a natural way. And no one knew that the basic system

of neighborhoods has an elementary school in every neighborhood. This is twelve hundred families roughly. And where that school is there's a park and a playground and swimming pool in the meeting room. And a pass system that leads to that. People come to know one another. People live in cul de sacs. We have gang mailboxes so that people go to the mailbox. It's like the well where people meet one another at the mailbox. Three of those neighborhoods make a village of about 12000 people where they're there. Not in all cases where the plan calls for a high school in a middle school. Small shops and meeting rooms and recreation and churches. And that's like a small town and eight of those small towns make the city and that whole physical planning is organized too to facilitate a relationship among people which causes them to know one another work with one another live with hope and trust and ambition

rather than fear and intolerance and out of it has worked and that that's the greatest success of Glenn and I expressed in a lot of ways one is in the racial openness of it's really not important whether you're black and white black or white. And that and this is that's a strong statement. But it's it's really almost true. And that in turn has made Columbia a place where Orientals are calm. We have I found recently we have over 100 Chinese families and enough families to have elementary school teaching Mandarin Chinese and English. And this comes out of a community that communities of people where they're organized and working together to achieve a better life not to win a battle not to oppose something. I think that Columbia has released the energy and creativity of people to undertake new things create new institutions Colombia for women of Colombia for the volunteer post office because they wanted a post

office. Started their own telephone directory created a family life center need after another as it has arisen. People feel they can do it. Editor of the newspaper said to me one day that she felt that the most important characteristic of Columbia was that people feel they can do something about whatever it is that they can do something. And. Maybe the very thing that's missing from our stablished is what has traditionally been missing in the last number of years. And you turned your attention at scenes from the suburban shopping malls to the development of a new city and then to the refurbishing of older cities. What was it that drew your attention to the cities. Well we know we know that. It seems that way but I guess tension really started in the older city I can remember back in one thousand forty nine. Being chairman of a thing called the pilot program in Baltimore to take a slum area

29 acre block area over near Johns Hopkins and determine what could be done to create a community to improve the life of the people in a area that was very deteriorated. And we've given a lot of time to the to the inner city. We've tried to achieve major projects in the in the inner city that have been frustrated by one condition or another. And. When we did find a home market place and Boston back in 76 it looked like we'd all of a sudden turned around but. That wasn't a change in spirit for us nor was Harbor Place. But I think that there are forces working today with respect to the older city that weren't working 15 20 years ago that. Tremendous. Tremendous forces working that are favorable to life in the inner cities that weren't working 20 years ago.

Well one is lifestyle young people of 20 years ago the American Dream was a half acre lot the picket fence and the station wagon and a set of golf clubs. And the. American Dream today for millions and millions of young Americans as to rehabilitate a house in the inner city. A pair of skis instead of a set of golf clubs and folks wagon instead of a station wagon. And this is true because the demographics have changed. Sixty five percent of the American households today have two people working. 50 percent have no children. The life of those people is better worked in the environment of the inner city than it is in the suburbs which they find sterile. Also the whole racial situation is important that we pack the black people in the center of the city and build a wall around it. And segregation was a dreadful thing in this country. And now as we're

opening that up and black people can live wherever they want. Not quite yet but they will be able to do that. Moving so fast this in turn. Creates vacancies in the inner city and it allows white people to come in and young people are not concerned about coming into a black neighborhood and living life on black people as white people as indeed they are. And black people moving into the suburbs we're beginning to really. Mix our society in the way that that it should be so that this makes the inner city more inviting place and opportunity. They are the urban problems around the country. Basically the same city from city to city. I don't think they're very different because I don't think I don't think the urban problem is essentially an urban problem. I think it would take a wiser and more knowledgeable

philosopher than I could post a bit to understand exactly what has happened but. The increase in alcohol and drugs isn't limited to people who are unemployed isn't it. There's a good deal of evidence that is just as high in the suburban areas per capita as it is in the center of city. Just more people in Center City. But the breakdown in family life increase in the rate of divorce. We have a we have a condition in a society that we have faced up to that we're dealing with and how to how to work with them. What about. It's it's it's the problem of. The years immediately ahead. We've got to get a better handle on how to provide more hope. Or more determination or and a more inspired set of values among millions of people in this

country. Do you think your projects in Boston and Philadelphia and and Baltimore and New York helped in that direction. Yes I do. I think it would be a mistake to overstate it but I think that one going to harbor place can see and whole inner harbor of Baltimore can see an important condition. In which all kinds of people are together at the heart of the city. Black white rich poor old young and enjoying it and that that mingling that sense of community that is there is wasn't that. And then the vacuum was was damaging. And the presence of that sense of community is created. I think someone said to me the other day Walter Sondheim said to me he said you know I see a remarkable thing there's a there's a return of an old sense of civility. Around the Inner Harbor I find people in Harbor place

holding open the door for other people. Well it's a very small thing but it's an expression of value and I think the fallout from that is to strengthen other conditions in the inner city more jobs. More places to go more life in the heart of the city. I think that what's happened in the Inner Harbor has has only lighted the wick of. A much larger and more important explosion of life in the inner city. That whole Ann Arbor thing say nothing of Faneuil Hall gallery East etc. and Philadelphia must be a source of. Personal joy to you and let me ask you a personal question on that a lot of attention has been paid to Jim Rouse and there's every reason for you just struck about quite proudly. You don't I can add this I think somebody said to you recently it's amazing you're such a regular person. Tell me

about the. Reaction of people to the. Face of Jim Ross on the cover of TIME magazine. Well that's more an embarrassing experience than than a beauty one. Obviously it's pleasant to be recognized but that that kind of a thing cause such overstatement such overrating of the work or the importance of any individual that that. It's astonishing. How that. How important it is to people that my discipline is I don't know. It's amazing I've had hundreds of letters I've had letters from people many people collect covers of Time and get autographs I've had people write me

who first when I God said he had eight hundred. Copies and then I got one and I had twelve hundred Finally when I had 2000. Covers of Time autograph every week. But somehow and maybe it's like this is this is a popular thing to do but I don't. I feel blessed that I've had the opportunity to work with the people I have and the company that I have and the company's been able to accomplish the things that it has and you would not know one other kind of company now. Jim Rouse companies are rolling along and from what I read you're devoting some attention to the Enterprise Foundation and dace and a commercial subsidiary. What is the direction there. As you know I retired as chief executive officer of the company three years ago

and that's in very good hands of people who in whose hands it's been for some time actually and and I believe it was the president's chief executive officer. And I have no more. Worker responsibility and the running of the company. For many years I had wanted to work at what seemed to me to be a crucially important than neglected condition in America which is the housing of the very poor and have worked on the side for the last eight or nine years and the effort in Washington called Jubilee housing which works with the poor where they are to help them reveal their miserable slum housing in the fifth level housing money. Using the best money it can raise to do it using a lot of volunteer help begging for money. But working out from that with the health care and finding jobs and working with young mothers and trying to create small businesses taking on the whole

life of the poor in the inner city. I believe that what they have done that is replicable and city after city across the country and we have created a group of us have created a foundation called the Enterprise Foundation which is for which we're trying to raise 15 million dollars as a working capital fund the income from which will go to support the other efforts in other cities across the country like Jubilee House. And the foundation is the owner of a. Real estate development company that's a profit motivated tax paying real estate development company nothing to do with housing it's jobs to make money office buildings retail centers. Smaller than the Ross Company not competitive with a Ross Company. But as that development company makes money all of its earnings flow to the foundation and from the foundation to housing for the poor. Over the next five 10

15 years we can build up the success of that development company so it's pouring more and more money into the foundation and the foundation is out of supporting more and more Jubilee housings around the country. Maybe we can make a dent in the condition of the poor in the inner cities. A good 25 years ago or more I think you coauthored a book called slums in 10 years. And those ten years came and went perhaps it was an attention grabbing title more than anything else. But what could we have done to eliminate slums in 10 years and what can we do now. Well that was 10 years wasn't really a book it was a report that many not Keith and for the District of Columbia. On there was a requirement of the Housing Act of 54 that every city had developed a workable program for urban renewal. And we were retained to layout for the District of Columbia a workable program for renewing the city. And we took that on as a whole task what it would take to eliminate all the slums in the District of Columbia

and produce a city fit to live in for all the people and it would have worked. I'm convinced it would work but I think the conditions were could have been accomplished. We called it no slums in 10 years not as a forecast but that as a as a statement of what could be if if the program was carried out. Of course it wasn't. And maybe we're slums in Washington now than there were in 1055 when that report was in there. But many cities are making remarkable progress. I think there's great hope for what's happening in the inner city. I think that I think we're not doing nearly enough. I think we really haven't faced up on the whole in America either to the problems of the city or to the problems of growth of the city. We continue with sprawl and we continue with slums and each is unnecessary. We'll have to have

sprawl. We don't have to have cluttered highways and we don't have to have measurable center cities. We have it within our management capability and within the resources of this country to make our cities work. And I think the hope is that we will face up to it. And you're optimistic. Yes I'm optimistic because I think that the only practical way of life is an optimistic one. You need to look at what needs to be done I think we need major changes I think we've got debt. Face up to the most crucial problem we face in America and in the world which is this armaments race. I'm delighted to see that people becoming exercised about the new nuclear war because what we really need to be actually sized about is this outrageous defense budget. This is Jim Rouse who is develop not only an international worrier but he worries about you and me and rich people and poor people and a sense of

community. And it's the 15th birthday of Columbia Maryland which was born thanks to the efforts of this remarkable Maryland citizen who grew up right here on the eastern shore to be with us next week in person. In person is brought to Marylanders through general support grants made possible by Waverley press incorporated. The Williams and Wilkins company merit gasoline stations and the members of the Maryland Center for Public Broadcasting.