Dropout Dilemma

I have more fun out of school and get into school. I can't remember any of my teachers that additive did it to great there was room because our the way you would always have the same proportion. We know that there is a 50 percent dropout rate from ninth grade to 12th grade. All right. Good evening everyone. I'm Dave Duryea on most of the programs in this save our students series we'll be looking at problems and concerns within the education system. But for this program we're switching the focus a little bit to concentrate on young people who are no longer in the system. They are the dropouts. A high school diploma has never been more important than it is today. It's tough enough to get a good paying job with a diploma nowadays and virtually impossible without one. And yet the high school dropout rate is increasing about

22 percent of Maryland's class of 86 left school between the 9th and 12th grades. And while that's actually a little better than the national average it's also a little worse than the Maryland figures of just a year ago. In Baltimore City the dropout rate for the class of 86 was an astounding 46 percent. And that's also worse than the figures of the previous year. What happens to all those dropouts it affects us all in this hour we'll talk with some dropouts who share some of their personal experiences. We'll look at efforts to get dropouts to drop back in. And we're looking into something fairly new programs designed to identify those students who are at risk of dropping out and to keep them in school. Our guests are Richard Steinke acting assistant state superintendent of schools in the division of special education and support services. James Carnegie supervisor of character and citizenship education in the Baltimore City school system grittily business occupations teacher at Kroon vocational high school a public alternative high school in Prince

George's County. Stanley select senior associate of the national committee of citizens and education and Kathy Lalli Baltimore Sun staff correspondent in education. We welcome all of you. Before the six of us begin talking we're going to do some listening though along with you. So listening to the stories of some young people who have dropped out here is Bernard Allan's report. Oh it's great with I now the great pass to the 12th grade. And I never went back to school because of Fame problems. And I wanted a job where my friends would go up. To Parties during the day instead of attending school then I'd get home a lot of my parents and I went to school at these high school dropouts every turn to school to get an education and career training. Some will tell you it was a mistake to drop out. Well others have no regrets. Michael a Baltimore City dropout. His problems began in junior high. I just would see right by was hey you know the halls of town Zach a few classes.

And I got away with it. The teachers see light you know they did. They didn't care if I cut classes that much and I thought I'd get in trouble. I stopped the class to get core classes. When Michael taught classes he was involved in fighting using drugs and other illegal activities. But he still managed to pass his grade level and reach high school in high school. I was like war like a war like a pop person because they do this by this by though they have stuff like that. But what I've got to watch is more people coming from different sections of town and everything. So I would start it all over again to be bad again. Cannot go to school. So what I did was. I started hate on the halls again. I caver the video by teachers that it had to create that war room because of the way. But. Something happened. What happened. Well I started.

Trying to get high and get whatever I wanted it I had. A nervous breakdown. And I stick to. It. That really got me back on track. I stayed in hospital for about six months. When he returned to school he worked part time at Pimlico Racetrack but would in a great hour with duty no free pass to the 12:3. I never looked back and I'd rather work with the horses at I was kind of small just for that to be a jock. So when Michael began working full time at the racetrack trying to live up to an image shared by many of his peers the girls see you looking good every day. The guy co-creator What would you say they would if they were to get with you today. Would it be with you they wouldn't be with the other crap they see driving a brand new BMW with Sadie's. They would wouldn't be with you. They did the drugs. You got that image. You know your school your what school because of your size.

Michael outgrew any hopes of becoming a jockey. So he quit the track tried other jobs unsuccessfully. Eventually he went to the learning center for help. What I'm trying to do is get my GED get into a career. I would like to do you know what the skies over here the audio visual technician first of all school because of Fame problems. And I want to a job. What were the family problems. And my parents not getting along. Stress. And things like that. I have two children and I had my first child when I was an eighth grade. I finished eighth in the ninth. I went to high school. And I got the 10th grade when I had my second child. It wasn't on account of me having her. It was just that I didn't want to put all this strain on my mother and she was the only one who was my babysitter. She was fighting for me. And stayed home a few times. To take on why

she she didn't. Want to time she didn't she stay sick sometimes and I just stayed home and then I just got to the point I was missing so many days. So I just dropped out and started I'm just kicking me out. When Chantelle dropped out of school. She looked at a number of jobs that were too physical for her. She quit and enrolled at the Learning Center where she is studying to obtain her GED and received training as a clerk typist. Wow. To really get to. The position in a. Financial position that I want to take me. It may take a while because I still need to brush up on my typing because I have stopped typing for at least a year or so. I can still type Shantelle understands the importance of taking a GED. Some dropouts will disagree. I think that. That piece of paper is important. I think that if you're going to listen and learn. That you should be OK for any type of job. But you know there's people with a

college degree that don't have jobs. Teresa is a student at the side occupational training center in Essex. She receives training in modern office technology. But first must improve her reading and writing skills. Something she didn't do in high school. I had more fun out of school than I did in school. Me and my friends would get up go to parties during the day instead of attending school. Then I'd go home to my parents I went to school and I just chose the party life instead of the good life the party life consisted of drugs and alcohol. It was people that I hung around with. I chose to goof off. What do you mean by goofing off and what kind of people did you. I had my own mind I wanted to do what I wanted to do. And what was that. Just. Have fun not pay attention I didn't listen to nobody or anything. I actually left school at 11th grade and what school was this what high school. And when you left the 11th grade What was your parents reaction.

They didn't like it at all. And what did they tell you. They didn't tell me nothing because I left town. 11th grade. Laughter. Yes. And what did she do. I went with my boyfriend. Teresa eventually married her boyfriend had a child but the marriage didn't last. My husband split up. I started seeing someone else. I lived with him. I have a 5 year old daughter at the time and. The person I was with was a truck driver who was never home I had my own apartment with my 5 year old. I got into drugs really bad. I took upon myself to go into a rehab. I come out of rehab a week later I relapsed. And. Then I met someone else who I'm with now and I. My life has changed ever since. Her boyfriend encouraged her to stop using drugs and enrolled in school to receive career training.

I'm working on my reading and my math to bring that up so I can get to my core area. The person the person has the change. That's the person. The person you want to party live that's what you want to lead. If you want to education then. Go for it it's like the people school. So I couldn't get this Paula is going back to school to earn her GED and receive career training. She works at a Popeye's restaurant in Easton Maryland. Talbot County ranks seventh among other counties for a high school dropouts in compatibility with other students is the reason Paula dropped out of school. Because. They went back to my talk. They want. To fight every day not to. Laugh. There's no one answer. How does your family feel about you dropping at the time dropping out. Wasn't easy was very low. What did she tell you. If I dropped the loser all my life I had that I was going to stop. I want to make this

happen. Holos worked as a clerk typist in Keystone Pennsylvania then later transferred to Potomac Maryland. She didn't like living with nearly 100 girls so she returned home and enrolled at Chesapeake college to earn her GED and focus on a career. And Data Processing county any regrets about your life so far in terms of leaving school and having to come back and finish out the school. Is. It's. Taking longer over my life. While many students drop out because of incompatibilities with the school students from other countries learn that living in a new country and learning in a new classroom can be much more complex. Well I'm from the suburbs. And how long have you lived here. Well I've been here for three years. Pedro is part of the growing Hispanic community of Montgomery County. When he and his family came to America he was 15. He entered the 10th grade at Blair High School but like many foreign students economic constraints and language barriers forced

Pedro to drop out of school. I quit school I see that's where. That's why I didn't graduate. Why did you quit. Because I had thought it was very hard for me to work and come to school. Why did you ask to work. Full time and leave school. Why. Because I needed the money. Your mother. Yeah I have. Finances provenance. So you quit work. Where did you work. It's a hotel. Sheraton Hotel. That's right. And what did you do at the Sheraton. Well I worked as a. Busboy. OK. And how long did you work there. For almost one year almost one year. Now you're back in school and you're out of money. Are you got to stay in school and finish or you're going to drop out again. I'm going to stay at home and school and. Pedro feels guilty that he is not working full time to help support his family. His dream is to graduate from high school and return to El Salvador to attend the military

university. I want to study if you want to study for the Ateneo general to. Military school university college dropouts the quiet killer of the American dream the students we've seen are fighting for they are part of that dream. But there are many who do not drop back in. It is estimated that they cost taxpayers more than $75 billion a year. I Bertrade Allen reporting. Well you have seen and heard five stories five dropouts in these cases most of whom have gotten somewhat back on track. But ladies and gentlemen from your various vantage points in the education system are these typical stories. Are these reasons that you've heard the reasons why kids are dropping out today in in record proportions. Well you certainly can listening to Michael the first story there was a pattern there that certainly we've seen over time and that's a pattern of academic difficulties followed by some degree of disruption followed by a series of

perhaps truancy suspension involvement and in some instance with drugs. Now this is not the pattern for all youngsters but it is typical enough that that these are indicators of a growing problem with many kids. Yes. And what seems typical to me is that they never make a real decision at least many of the dropouts that I've talked to it's not as if they sit down one day and say these are the pros and cons. I have a job waiting for me. It will get me farther than what I'm doing in school. Instead it's the they just the girl who got into the party life. The young woman who got into the party life. It's succumbing to immediate temptation and not thinking ahead not being able to link today's actions with. Tomorrow's result. Do they kind of drift maybe maybe even accidentally into. The world of the dropout. Yes. I don't think it's it's an accident. I think many of these decisions are really made much earlier but there I think as

Susan says they're really non-decision But the research that I've seen shows that some of the school difficulty begins as early as the fourth grade. When when when school becomes much more difficult for some kids and then by middle school you've already begun to segment themselves away from their classmates and by high school being being a dropout is really conceited. I want to go back to that early identification of kids at risk in a moment but is there a way to put put your finger on on maybe one or two major culprits that are making kids drop out in pro-poor in unheard of proportion. It drugs. Is it boredom. Is it. Is it the need for money. We heard all kinds of excuses from those five kids this is the main culprit. I could say that it probably is a combination of those things. But one of the factors that seems to constantly cause kids to end up at Risk is poor reading skills. And many of the students now particularly at Kroon we have students who are pre primary readers. We of course have students who read at the 12th grade level but our average is about a fourth grade level.

And one's reading skills are not in place you find that all these other things come along. And actually it's a combination of all those things that leads this kid to become anatomists do so by and large we can say number one that most kids who drop out are poor students who weren't really doing well in school in the first place and I can see no reason to stay that. But I'd also want to say that the academics the poor academics can sometimes come because of these other situations the other situations can cause them to not attend school and therefore they're academics and law and then they fall into almost like a pit that they can't climb out of. And. I don't think you can really point the blame at what you want to look for blame first thing the kid himself. Who really does has not developed any means of solving problems. So when Cathy talked earlier about decision making he doesn't have or she doesn't have a technique to Dessau decide what to do. It's spur of the moment what feels good. Then you also take a look at the environment from which the child is coming. And if the parent does not value education. If the parent

says well I need a babysitter to stay home today those kinds of things all add up and put a child at risk. Kathy your your amazing series in the Sunday papers recently about dropouts in South Baltimore the kids we heard here a couple of minutes ago are all back on track in some way of getting back into education. You by and large talked with a lot of kids in South Baltimore who have no plans to get back on track. Did you hear from them in South Baltimore the same kinds of things you heard from those kids in that videotape. No I don't think they had reached the point where they thought there was no alternative but to go back to school. I think those people we heard in the program earlier had all come to the point where they realize that. There was no other choice for them if they wanted to have any kind of life at all. But to go back to school and I think it may take a lot of young people a long

time to reach that situation. It seems it takes desperate circumstances to repel some kids. What happens what clicks in a kid's mind to make him or her say I've got to get back on track here. What what does it. I think one of one of the elements is a contact with the job market what's out there. You know drop outs have been a continuing problem with our schools over a long period of time. The difference is a 20 or 30 years ago you could drop out of school and get an industrial job in Baltimore or Cleveland or any of our big cities that didn't require a high school education where you could pick up skills and you had job advancement. Today those jobs are decreasing. They don't exist in the same way. And you see kids getting service jobs jobs in fast food industries. Well there really isn't that same kind of advancement. And it's tough tough work. And that's reality. And when these kids hit that then they begin to think maybe they've wasted some of their time.

So it doesn't make any sense that nowadays when you really can't get anywhere without a high school diploma whereas maybe you could 20 30 years ago it doesn't make any sense that the dropout rate is actually going up. It's just it's it's at cross it's it's doesn't make any sense. That's very true. And insofar as Stan is pointing out is as right as we project the job market over the next 10 years with the increase in jobs the information is that we're going to have maybe a 5 percent increase in manufacturing jobs in the vast majority of the jobs coming online will be in the technology areas the information areas and the service areas and they are going to require even more risk from our high school graduates. So it is almost an inverse relationship here that is of great cost to us in Maryland and I think the nation as a whole where we're talking about losing markets in the in the global economy we're talking about maintaining our own internal markets so it is something that we as a state and as a nation are beginning to look at very very

carefully. That's getting to a crisis situation. And the sad thing I think is that a lot of employers don't want a returned drop out. They don't value. I think in many cases the student with the GED as much as they do the student with a high school diploma because the high school diploma tells them that here is a person who is able to go with the program stick it out. That. And reach that goal the high school diploma and those are the kinds of employees they want you know in response to that too. It seems that a vocation though diploma or a vocational program does carry with it as seemingly a stigma. And even though the student that graduates from the vocational program is sometimes better equipped than the student with the diploma because they at least have a marketable skill that doesn't always get out there to the kids or to the employers so that they know what they're getting when they hire this particular young person that doesn't make any sense either when you stop to think about it.

Here's an employee is it a generational thing. Maybe the employer excuse me who may maybe a little older says I stuck with it in high school I went until I was 18. Here's a kid who dropped out and forget that this kid may have gotten his head on straight and gotten back into a program like yours. He didn't stick with it in the first place. Is it a generational thing. Maybe no. I don't know the answer to that particularly but I do think that students who graduate through a vocational program are much more mature just like the students that we saw in the video. They're very mature. They come to grips with their future and what has happened in the past and now they're ready to go on. I think that that would depend on the quality of the vocational program because there are some evidence that some vocational programs really have little to do with the real world. The equipment may be outdated that the what they're teaching is the business world 10 or 20 years ago. So that that child that person coming out of that program isn't prepared and it may be that the the person who is the hiring says well if I get a person who's come from an academic program he's shown a certain degree of

mental competency and probably he may be brighter. So there are all kinds of. You're right there is a stigma attached. But he's he's a he's putting a value on the academic training as opposed to that training for vocational skills which may be or may not be satisfactory at it's a level of concern. Very simple question. The dropout rate we have heard for kids entering ninth grade this year in Baltimore City is is an astounding 46 to 50 percent out of all the ninth graders this fall in school by the time it's graduation time for them. Half of them won't be there. Why is the dropout rate in Baltimore City so high and so much above the national average. Why. Well looking at it from a national perspective the general accounting office just did a very comprehensive study in which they look at 400 97 programs around the nation and in the urban centers we're finding much higher dropout rates than national average there is about 67 percent as compared to rural areas which may be

14 percent. And we find the same mixture of dropout rates in the state of Maryland. If you take a look at some of the factors that we talked about earlier where a youngster would be coming from a family where there may be a tradition in a sense or a history of people dropping out where there may be a higher incidence of poverty or children living at the poverty level. There are certain values that would help retain the youngster are not as ingrained in the environment. Plus the the mix so the larger schools oftentimes we're hearing more and more about larger schools having an effect on youngsters being lost. We heard some of these youngsters here he went to one of the middle schools and then began to get lost in the crowd. These are all factors that you might find more in an urban environment than you would let's say you know in a rural environment I think some of the things stand with saying we look where we were 20 years ago in an industrial society. You could get along. This is not the case when you when you take a look at some of our urban settings now and it seems very sad to me too that the kids I talked to in South

Baltimore one young man in particular stands out my mind. He had two older brothers who had dropped out of high school. His parents were dropouts and they all told him you have to stay in school to succeed. Now it's fine to say that but when you're day to day life experience is that people do drop out of school. That's we always say actions speak louder than words. And there are the. That's what a young person. Learns from. You know Paula a young lady in the first part of the program said my mom told me that if you drop out of high school you're going to be a loser the rest of your life. Is that necessarily the case. Is that what happens to most most dropouts 10 and 20 years down the road. Are they by and large losers the rest of their lives. Or has anybody even studied this. Well there's certainly a loss in life income kids who drop out of school we're less over 23 20 to 30 year period the kids who graduate from high school that it's also true that many kids who drop out do

find their way back and into the education system as these kids have had. So they do they do pick up after awhile and there are efforts in the state of Maryland to to really get these kids to re-enter schools. We're just talking in Baltimore City where there are a couple of excellent programs growing up to try and get reengaged these youngsters in the learning process. There are some fine programs out of the Department of Employment and Training that are also geared at literacy and returning these kids to an education arena tied into work experience. So there are things to as a failsafe mechanism for some of these youngsters of course. Somebody mentioned the GED program earlier. A very important program for getting kids those high school will move into some of those remedies in a moment. But simple question number two before we move on should the law make it mandatory to stay in school till you're 18 the law in Maryland now is 16 right. Is it just passing a law that you've got to stay there until you're 18 you going to do any good at all to the kids you know people have their hands full already trying to keep track of of those under

16. The City for example doesn't have the money to pay truant officers or home visitors anymore. It's largely a matter of sending form letters home with threats. And that doesn't have a very long lasting effect. You know I I don't know so much that it's time on task as it is quality of task and there are students who stay in school until they're 18 and they haven't achieved much there physically but they drop out mentally a long time ago. And I would be more concerned with the quality of time that they spend in school than so much that they're there and to the right. I think we would however improve the dropout rate better of course and then suffer would be a falling attendance rate because they would be in school but not really in school. And we have a lot of kids who are in there in the classroom because they have to not because they want to What have you gained I guess onto brighter things. We have set the stage and it sounds pretty gloomy I guess but but not all kids who drop out

stay out of school. That's because the school districts and some concern private citizens are doing something about the dropout dilemma. It's almost as easy to drop back in as it is to drop out in the first place. There is of course the old standby the GED program whether you're 18 or 80 you end up with the equivalent of a high school diploma. There are a host of other alternatives around the state. School districts have come up with learning centers that offer remedial courses to get students back onto the graduation track or in the case of schools that offer training and trades onto the job track. And the need to get dropouts to drop back in has not escaped the governor's notice either. Governor Schaefer has appointed a commission to study the state school district dropout problem. That 12 member governors commission headed by Walter Sundheim will evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of the state school systems as well as individual schools and the students that look into everything from testing to truancy drug use to pregnancy dropouts suspension and expulsion

policies. The Commission's interim report is due May 30th of 1988. One approach to the dropout problem that is likely to get high marks from that governor's commission is to put it simply prevention. The idea is to recognize which kids are most at risk of dropping out and doing something before they do drop out. Here is John Vidal's report. It is often difficult to target which students might eventually become dropouts but there is one common characteristic those who display a chronic pattern of skipping school for years. Some schools have attempted to personally contact the homes of students who fail to show up but at a large school. That task can often be overwhelming and that's why today many of those same schools have now let computers do the dirty work. What it does is it. Calls the parents home indicates to the parents that the child was not in school today and no states you know we don't know why the child wasn't in school. Would you please let us know.

You know the reason for the absence and that effort is apparently paying off. That's helped immensely. We're getting you know a number of. Referrals of students. Who attend is now is picked up because we're doing this and the parents have been very appreciative of it. But not every school can boast of such a program. In fact there are still many parents who don't discover their kids are skipping school until well after the fact. Deborah Hickman is a parent of a student who attends a Baltimore high school. And it was not until I you know when I take time off to go to the school to find out that I was the one that he in fact couldn't come in class and my immediate response to that was why didn't you notify me why did I have to come to school. Three weeks after the fact to find out that my child had not been in school and so Mr. Hickman took it upon herself to make sure her son was where he should be during the day. And when I did in fact was to make sure that he was there by putting him on a daily report meaning that he has to carry a slip to its class to get signed.

So that I may see that he was in school and that's another alternative for many kids it still may be a long way off till graduation day. But these Baltimore City students have already taken a big step toward achieving a high school diploma. They have completed the first phase of a special four year program known as futures. The ultimate goal is to ensure that each single in our program succeeds in its high school career. That each one has the opportunity to read. And after graduation to go on to a job or be provided with a college. Career. Students who have scored two or three grades behind achievement tests are eligible for the federally funded program. And it begins even before the start of the ninth grade. They come here in the summertime for six weeks for mediation as well as to get some experience and work on the recreational component is also started in the summertime. And this is when they decide exactly what they would like to do.

Vanessa hold is one of several hundred students enrolled in the four year program. She's receiving instruction by computer on a variety of subjects. A. Good. Education not only being paid from the media but academics is only one part of the agenda. What makes the futures program so attractive to students is that they get a chance to actually earn money during the summer by working in a variety of jobs. I don't think so because I want to have a job and I want to learn more because my average was down and had to pull my grades up this year it might help me in high school. And others agreed to futures program is giving them an extra incentive to stay in school. Gave you something to do to some instead of just being in the street because at first I couldn't get a blue chip job right. So for me to get a job

I got in the program and it gave me something to do to bring my grades up. And besides making money by going to school there may be more and more local school systems are looking for extra help from the private sector in efforts to deal with the dropout problem. One such endeavor involves the awarding of a 430 $5000 grant from the Prudential foundation to Harlem Park Middle School here in Baltimore City. One hundred seventy five sixth graders have been targeted for this program and for the next three years they'll be involved in a closely monitored study. The National Committee for citizens and education a nonprofit organization based in Columbia Maryland is supervising the effort. But senior associate William review says this program is unlike most others. Our focus is to concentrate exclusively on the parents. All the important people at home well maybe the Guardians. To make them stronger

more knowledgeable about school and much more involved in what goes on with the child in school. Do you think the role of parents has largely been overlooked and the whole education process. That's our position and I'm not talking simply about Harlem our middle school or Baltimore. And our 15 years working with parents and parents groups. We've concluded. That the role of parents or the Z attitude which school people oftentimes have about parents is very limited. They're in the building for during American Education Week or they come by for a parent teacher conference. But that's really not parent involvement. The way we talk about it because many parents of these kids may not have been good students themselves. They may be uncomfortable with the school environment and may be unaware of how to properly monitor their child's schoolwork. The whole business about what they do in school today is really tough. You have to go beyond that. What is it you're expected to do in English. I know that a paper

is coming up in history. Are you doing the background library work on it. There's a whole back and forth between. Parents and children. That should take place that we suspect is oftentimes not taking place. There is a feeling that if with greater parental supervision these students work hard through middle school and successfully advance to the ninth grade that their chances of dropping out will greatly diminish. Maryland's business community is also growing more concerned about the dropout problem and its long term effects on society. That's why it's launching its own publicity campaign. She was. In high school. To tell them to graduate. From looking to me for a job. And it's not because I need people who know French and biology. What I need are people who won't quit on me when the going gets rough. But you start putting in high school. And it gets to be a habit. You bring in that high school diploma. And. Maybe. This public service announcement is only one part of a campaign sponsored by the Greater Baltimore committee

a private coalition of business leaders. We know that there's a 50 percent drop out rate from 9th grade to 12th grade. And the message we're trying to get through is just stay in school don't be a quitter. And there is also hope that such ads will create a new form of peer pressure among students. I think this is also geared for what you see there is no quitter is a peer. Erika. Steamrolling effect where one person says one child says in person says look I'm going to stay in school. Don't you think you to stay in school. And hopefully it'll steamroll and get the ball rolling in effect that way. Private sector funding of educational programs has progressed to the point where in Cleveland public schools needy students there will soon be earning money for good grades. The money will be placed into escrow and made available later for either college or job training. But there is a catch. A student would only receive that money if he or she actually graduates.

I was under Hughes the superintendent of Baltimore City Schools reacts to such a concept. Well if I look at it in terms of just paying them to get subjects I have mixed feelings when I look at it for a method of providing a scholarship for young people to have funds to go to further their education and graduation from my school. I think it's an excellent idea and is certainly one that is being explored here at present time and learn of business. Members of the business community. But despite the many programs aimed at reducing the number of dropouts there is hope that the message will not be ignored by the parents because ultimately it is our responsibility to make sure that our children are in school. It is not the school systems problem to worry about where the children are. It is our ultimate responsibility. Mr. Silver let me let me start this part of the conversation ask you about your colleagues comments there about parents who show up on parents night and really don't know what's what's going on with their kids at school. If the parents have abdicated the responsibility it's got to make the

governments. And that is the school system's job just about impossible. How do you get around that. Well it definitely has made schools much more difficult to organize and run. I think that the way to address it is as my colleague Bill Rieu said I think we have to go back directly to parents and parents organizations and neighborhood organizations and stress the importance of parent involvement. Involve them and then bring them back into the schools. And we have to work with the schools to recognize that parents are an enormous underutilized resource and if we don't use parents then I think we're not really going to solve the drop. But suppose for instance you've got you've got parents who simply cannot be motivated to get back or who were dropouts themselves. And at least by example if not by telling your kids are good at giving them the message that you really don't need school then what do you do. Well I think we have to turn to other adults within the community for that kind of reinforcement that we ordinarily expect from parents. But it has to come from somewhere and that somewhere

really can't be within the schools. I think we asked the schools to do too much if we ask them to become the parents of our kids and your group is involved with the project in Harlem Park Middle School and my right in which you are turning to the neighborhood. In practical terms what does that mean is that turning to the neighbor who happens to have a pretty good job and a pretty good education and. Him or her becoming a role model for a kid who's at risk is it as simple as that. Well in some cases that that that is occurring. But I would estimate that certainly at least 30 percent of the parents with whom we're working with in that neighborhood have less than a high school education. And we feel that with the proper backing and training that those parents can be effective monitors and supervisors of their kids work. And that in turn will result in a lower dropout rate farther up the line. It's not the whole answer but we think it's really got to be part of the answer. You know I think there are really three there needs to be a three pronged approach to the problem. What we were seeing in the last bit of film was

really in my estimation not dropout prevention but well I would equate that to treatment. These were kids who if you can if you consider drop out a disease they had the disease and we were trying to treat them in order to prevent them from taking the final plunge. Prevention really needs to start much and a much younger rate age for a child in the elementary school and that's where we use our character and citizenship program which really does some of the things that parents traditionally did. But it also returns to the school what was in fact one of the basic reasons for the establishment of schools in this country back in the colonial days to teach children to reproduce society and also find a way of changing society to give kids in order to their life to develop within them some character traits like responsibility honesty the willingness to work with a fellow worker the ability to take directions all of those things which if we can improve a child's concept of himself or herself that

they see themselves as value then that little cartoon you may have seen I'm somebody because God don't make no junk really starts meaning something. And that's what we need to do with the young child. Can you tell a child as young as middle middle years of elementary school if that child is one of those is going to be at risk of dropping out sometime. What do you look for. What are the symptoms that you look for the child who is academically behind. That's the first thing you look for a child who's repeated you look for a child who may have a problem as far as the home environment where lack of parent interest or parents who are not present those kinds of things. Unfortunately there are too typical in an urban situation. I think there's another element though beyond the character education. And that is that many of the kids that I've talked to who are dropouts are in danger of dropping out seem very isolated. They may have parents who care about them and would like to help them. But the parents are isolated too. They are not part of the

mainstream and they don't know how to let their kids. They don't know how to tell their kids to make the connection between what they're doing and what they should prepare themselves to do. So they're very isolated. They may live in the city but they live in a very small part of it and they don't experience too much beyond that. And as a result I think that. They very much need some kind of a personal interest which I think programs like the futures program the Harlem Park program have the potential of providing somebody who will take an interest in them and say look I care about you. How do you combat the feeling of a kid who says well I know a friend of mine who quit school in the ninth or 10th grade and he's making you know a thousand dollars a week doing something you know semi legal or illegal or legal. Maybe he's got a friend or she's got a friend who really got lucky and and despite the lack of a high school diploma has

found a pretty good niche in life and is making a pretty good living. How do you combat that. Where a kid says that's what I'm going to do I don't need high school I really don't need it. That's a tough one. That is a tough one and we were talking earlier about the reality and for some of these youngsters bumping into that those hard facts of reality that first job that we saw the fellow in the promotion from Baltimore said when you've got your diploma come and talk with me. We talked about the jobs that are coming online there just simply aren't those many jobs available anymore where you can make that kind of money especially if you look into the future. We talked earlier about some of the things that that are outside the school and certainly those are forces in a kid's life. I want to just shift for a second. There are certainly things that we can do within the school and those are a number of activities in which we take a look at the climate of a school and we begin to work with teachers to have them sensitive to those climates and give them some skills in terms of making alternatives and some flexible arrangements within a school to engage those youngsters in into kind of a

community within the school. Certainly the forces outside the school we talk about abuse within the family are part of potentially a drug problem and within the family there are other agencies that we have to learn in education to engage actively try to help us. We certainly can't do it ourselves certainly business has a role to play. But networking are our community and that includes the Department of Social Services and mental hygiene administration some instances to work with kids. Both the youngster who is having problems to immediately move in on that problem but also the prevention. We talked about engaging parents when the youngsters are very young. We've got the extended elementary programs in the state of Maryland which are targeting on some of these very very serious areas. And I think if we can get the youngsters even earlier at least we may have broken the cycle for the future and I think we've got a cycle going here. Everything I'm hearing is that we've got to cycle among families a cycle among kids or perhaps a cycle within a community and to interdict that to somehow change and direct that is going to be a broad based approach and one that I think

that Maryland is getting very very serious about. And last week the committee on economic development came out with a report where they estimated that the major approach should be at the zero to 5 population. The youngsters beneath the age of five and perhaps starting with with with teenagers and pregnant mothers who are teenagers and and dealing with the with a huge national problem of the large number of babies who were born underweight and malnourished. And clearly those are the leading causes of of of the academic deficiencies later on in school. That's going to cost money and that's one thing we haven't talked about. Their estimate was that that cost is going to be 11 billion dollars to deal with that population in need. And they didn't advocate that all that money should come from the federal government. What's going to come from the state and in Baltimore what's going to come from the city. And I think we're going to have to deal with the fact that we've neglected urban

school systems and we've neglected the social service structure that could have supported some of these out of school non-school problems over these past few years. Well let's get into that one on one aspect of society that has all the money and that's business. The Cleveland example the Cleveland Roundtable a comparable I guess to the greater Baltimore Committee raised $5 billion you know quicker than any government could ever do and puts it in escrow and says if you finish high school and get some A's you've got if you got straight A's for six years you'd probably have fourteen or fifteen hundred dollars left under their system to pay for tuition or to pay for a trade school. What's wrong with that. Nothing at all. It's the same thing. Either to work. Would you be here next week if there wasn't a check. Well we've got to get kids to recognize that school is their job. It's a long term payoff. And I think the Cleveland situation is an excellent example of business coming in there and helping teach kids this is in fact the the work world. Would you like it if it were government money.

I mean we're spending a lot of government money and a lot of taxpayer money to get to the solution of this dropout problem. How about channeling some of it into the carrot approach instead of the other approaches we've been talking about. I would rather see the business community get community get involved primarily because they're going to be the future employers the government of course could be. But with business involved in it they will have an interest in that student's graduation and they bring along the personal involvement. Yeah. And really the it's not all an altruistic purpose because they're in fact going to be the employer and they're going to need to have employees whatever the quality happens to be. And if they don't put the money in now they're going to put it into training programs and many companies are now doing. But the federal government does have a role. Twenty five years ago the federal government started programs like up or down. And a federal loan and scholarship program and those counties have been significantly cut back over the last few years resulting in much lower numbers of minority youngsters and low income youngsters going on to college. And these youngsters

are now in high school. See that opportunity structures shrink and of course that's going to be less of an incentive to graduate from high school because there's no place beyond for them. But I'd point out that if if you go back to that period there was much less involvement on the part of business talk that we heard about in the city the dry up of money for summer jobs. And what happened. Well the mayor and the business community blue chip been program after program was developed because there hasn't been federal money. I think we've too long worked for Uncle Sam to take care of everybody and give us that paternalistic society which we may be of one of the root causes of our whole situation we're in now. Let me get to another specific example of a solution that you are involved in the Croom vocational school in Prince George's County. Tell me how that set up. Who pays for it. Who goes there and your success rate. OK well Crome vocational high school operates on an old Nike missile site and our students are chosen by our

staff and our principal and they come to us primarily by referrals. And we're very proud that many of our referrals come from our students who go there which is quite a testimonial because they obviously believe that they're getting a good education and they bring in relatives and friends and all these dropouts initially before they get to your school. A third of our students are dropouts. They have dropped out completely. Another third on the verge of dropping out. So students can leave my system. Our Prince George's County Public School system and still get back into Crome as long as they're under the age of 22. So our students range from the age of 16 to 22 and they come to our setting and they can either receive a high school certificate or a GED or a diploma now to receive a diploma of course they come with a reasonable amount of credits and they make up those credits because they're only with us for two years. Now our program is set up to be vocational experience for them so it and one of the previous pieces of it in

fact all of the previous information about the young students is obvious that they're not responding in the way we would want them to to a traditional traditional high school setting. They just don't work well and that kind of environment. They need hands on experiences and that's what we do at Crome we give them a vocational experience so this is a public school. This is a part of the Prince George's County Public School System and every school district in the country do this. Why aren't every Why aren't all the district doing this now. It would be great if they all did because we certainly are having successful experimental program. No no Croom has been around for 20 years and I think we're just now receiving some national attention after those 20 years. Well Mr. Shaw why. Why isn't every district doing it. Well there are programs springing up but too often they happen to be. At the. Without a real pattern and without a real good deal of planning. So you have a systemized approach. We have those in Baltimore City we have the Fairmont Hills School which really has a waiting list for kids to get into it. We have the the

educational center at the Hartford Institute which has a number of different kinds of program. So the programs are there. They tend to be. Small and not organized well enough to be reproducible in all jurisdictions throughout the state. They're also expensive. I think they're much. I'm sure it costs much more for a student and for the county to pay for a student Croom. And one of the other high schools in the same with a harbor city learning center is small and expensive. It is true that these programs tend to be more expensive than the other programs but now Krooman particular program is less expensive because our students do all the work at current students. We don't have to use too many county services so that we cut down our costs that way our students make our meals they pair of buildings. Another approach that I want to talk about specifically is the future's program that we saw a little bit about in the video what's Tell me the the the reason you think it works what it what is it that's what's different

about that from the traditional high school track that makes it work. Well I think the basic factor is that the kids recognize that there is someone there who cares that there is their special there and some of the schools they're grouped in fact in the classrooms together. So they get a camaraderie of working together. They work during the summer and they see the fruits of their work. Throughout the course of the year as an example and one of our schools the kids made shades of the entire building. Now that may not seem a lot but when you're in the city schools you recognize getting shades in the you're building is a major problem to everybody in that building recognize that the future is kids. Put that in there. It features kids who will also be doing things such as adopting senior citizen center so they're going to be also reaching out into the community because they're going to have to teach them that it's not only a matter of getting You've got to give. And when you get it it's easier to get these leaders to

catch 22 a pleasant catch 22 situation. Mr. Frank I've interrupted a couple of times when you wanted to jump ahead. Well I think we're talking a bit about some of the alternative programs and there are. They do exist in a number of the school systems both in the western part of the state the central part the eastern shore and they are expensive and they do have a payoff. Some of these programs also youngsters don't spend their entire high school career in them. The youngsters move in and move out and of course there is a pay off there too. And if you take those that aspect and match it against the lost revenues and some of the other problems in the quality of life for these kids and breaking this cycle that we talked about earlier about youngsters fulfilling a prophecy of continuing to drop out of school that's an important factor too. No other approach is more fundamental and more preventative. And that's that some of the things that are being done throughout the state. We have a disruption program. We talked earlier about some of the youngsters a pattern of disruptive behavior and being able to identify

that and move in with some very early services through very well-organized pupil service teams where these are professionals who work in the schools. School counselors school psychologist pupil personnel workers and school health person school health nurse. Being able to identify these problems early on assist teachers in working with kids and engaging family in a creative and productive approach to some of these problems so there are many things the alternative school approach of course is one approach and that is as we said earlier somewhat expensive. The other approach and I think one that will have dividends for the future is a well organized and perhaps diverse approach that we've talked a little bit about here in 30 seconds that we have left let me ask you to be a little introspective. There is clearly no lack of concern over the dropout problem. There is a growing number of programs to attack it. Are you all convinced that there is enough talking among yourselves enough coordination among all these different approaches that that there can be a concerted effort

to attack what is a growing national problem or have you gotten to that point yet where you're all talking and you're all you know marching to the same music. I think we may still be in the phase of developing if you will a menu a proven menu programs that we know will work and then offering those men menu to the schools and then let's see the schools use it as menus. And those programs to bring kids to the the point where they can get through school successfully. I think that this is a key time. This is I think the Year of the at risk student a couple of years ago it was academic excellence and the National Reform movement now people are looking at the at risk student. And if the before the attention wanes if if they're helped or not I think will this will be a key turning point. Well certainly wish you good luck and thank you all for being with us tonight. In closing we'd like to draw your attention to one more way of attacking the dropout dilemma is one way that Maryland Public Television can help and is helping in cooperation with the Maryland State Department of Education's division of

instructional technology NPT is offering a GED course here on television. Our series of adult education courses in reading writing and math started airing today in fact. But it's not too late to register. For more information call the Maryland State Department of Education adult education programs at Area 3 0 1 3 3 3 2 3 7 3. That's 3 0 1 3 3 3 2 3 7 3 our three day special series of programs here and MP to save our students continues tomorrow night at 10:00 with the class of 2000. That's what this year's kindergarteners are the Class of 2000 what kind of world will they find after high school graduation and what are the schools doing about about it and thinking about it now to prepare them for their brave new world. And Wednesday night two more programs conclude our series Wednesday at 8. Where have all the teachers gone. There is a teacher crisis in America. Three years from now we'll need more than a million new teachers and yet many of our best teachers are leaving the classroom now for better opportunities. Then at 8:30 Wednesday night your chance to ask the superintendents state

superintendent Dr. David Hornback and some local superintendents will be here to answer your questions on behalf of our guests this past hour. I'm Dave Dorian. Thank you for your interest and I'll see you again tomorrow night at 10:00 for the class of 2010