Missouri Governor Candidates Debate

In from Kansas City the public television stations of Missouri present the candidates for Missouri governor. Here is the moderator for tonight's debate. John Masterman. Good evening and welcome to this the only television debate of the campaign by the three candidates for Missouri governor. I'm John Masterman in the studios of Kansas City public television station KCET. This broadcast will be carried on a tape delay basis by the form Missouri public television stations. Together they serve approximately 90 percent of Missouri TV households. The candidates will make their opening statements in a minute after which the questioning will begin. The candidates are John Ashcroft. Republican candidates seeking re-election. He is completing his first term as governor. Betty C. Hearn's the Democrat state representative from the 160th district Charleston her late husband Warren Hearn's was governor from 1965 to 1973. And Mike Roberts the Libertarian Party candidate a consulting engineer from Kansas

City the reporters who will pose the questions to the candidates are Steve Kreisky political reporter for The Kansas City Star Terry Gagne political reporter for The St. Louis Post-Dispatch and Carol Whitaker public affairs reporter for this station K.C.B.. Now a word about the rules of the debate. Opening and closing statements will be two minutes each. The statements will be given in an order determined by a draw before the program. The reporters will ask their questions in turn. Candidates will answer in turn. Answers will be limited to one minute. The candidates will see time cues. Now then we'll hear first the opening statement of Mike Roberts. Thank you John. There is so little difference between the other two candidates for governor on this platform with me tonight were I not on the ballot. It really wouldn't matter much who you voted for. You'd still get the same thing higher taxes and more government. If you vote for me I guarantee you I will not increase

your taxes and I will veto every bill that expands the bureaucracy in Jefferson City. When Ronald Reagan said of the Democrats in 1984 they met never met a tax they couldn't hike. He could just as easily have been speaking of our present governor. Under John's four year term property taxes have increased by 36 percent. Income taxes are up by more than 30 percent and sales taxes are up by more than 25 percent in some parts of the state. The governor says these track tax increases are due to normal revenue growth. He wants you to forget that he has played an important role in every one of these tax increases twice. He fought to make it easier to increase property taxes. He broke with members of his own party and opposed a complete refund of the 200 million dollar a year windfall tax increase. And when the legislature sent him the largest single sales tax increase bill in Missouri history he didn't even blink when he signed it next to the opening statement

of Governor Ashcroft. Thank you John. We've worked hard during the past four years to move Missouri forward. We're winning more secure good paying jobs with new job training fund and a transportation system that's ahead. Ahead of its schedule that's a result of voter approved highway improvements. We've shot up in the rankings from number 20 to number two as a good place for industry. We've created over a hundred and seventy nine thousand net new jobs in this state. And experts predict that over 200000 net new jobs will be here by the end of the year. And the personal incomes of Missourians are going up going up even faster than inflation. We won the most extensive school reform in Missouri History new teacher competency tests better pay for teaching well strong discipline codes and student testing. Representative Hearn's voted against these provisions in the excellence and Education Act Three times.

But we want the reforms nevertheless and we've backed it up by putting 70 percent of all new discretionary spending into education and our work is getting results. Student test scores are up 10 percent beating national averages for the first time in history more than half of our graduates are going on to college. Missouri is moving ahead. Health care has been another top priority an entire new cabinet agency to move it up on the state agenda. Tens of millions of dollars for our new program to provide care for twenty five thousand low income women and children and we've multiplied funding and hospital care for poor. Several times over. Missouri is moving ahead. And we want to build on and build on our momentum. We've laid plans to enter the next century as a clear leader among the states. And I'm the only candidate that has issued real position papers offering dozens of positive concrete proposals for progress my vision for the future warranties on high school graduates basic skills.

Compaq's to assure every student an opportunity for a college education or a job a state Export Authority rural development grants for diversified growth more intensive in-home care and a $50 billion start on implementing the federal catastrophic care law in Missouri. Together we can keep Missouri moving ahead. And I ask you for your help in getting that job done. Now to Betty see Hearn's. Thank you John. At the outset I'd like to say that my husband is not the late husband very much alive. I'm glad to know that and I feel a little bit like Will Rogers who corrected the journalist once both thing reports of my death are greatly exaggerated. No thank you. Our message to Missourians in this campaign has been simple. Mediocrity is not good enough for misery. We must do better if we hope to prosper in the 1990s. One of John Ashcroft's campaign commercials shows him stuck in traffic. Regrettably this ad is a perfect symbol of his administration. Missouri indeed has stalled because of a lack of leadership in the governor's office this year.

Missourians have a clear choice for governor. I have consistently voted for adequate funding for public education. John Ashcroft has vetoed and withheld 49 million dollars in desperately needed funds for public education. He also vetoed the student grant program which caused higher tuition rates. I have consistently voted for effective job training programs to combat the loss of 1.1 billion dollars in good paying jobs in Missouri under the past two Republican governors John Ashcroft has used our job training programs in a different way. I think it's to subsidize his political contributors. I have consistently voted for funding programs that help our senior citizens remain in their homes are high quality nursing facilities. John Ashcroft coughed last year vetoed funding that would have helped 800 senior Missourians remain independent. His Administration approved a deal with a nursing home chain who happened to be large campaign contributors. I have consistently voted for funding so the highway control patrol can help local police combat major drug trafficking

operations. John Ashcroft opposed this request. I serve on that committee like the governor. I am an opponent of abortion but our concern for children must not end when they are born. John Ashcroft last year vetoed funds to provide daycare for the children of low income working parents to those who believe Missouri can do no better. John Ashcroft is your candidate. To those who want a governor who will lead and not follow who are tackling not duck the tough issues. Who will work with you to build a better misery. I ask for your support. The first question will come from Steve Krzycki of the city star Hill directed to Governor Ashcroft. First following which Mr. Roberts and Mrs. Hearn's went to Mr. Ashcroft. You consider yourself to be a strong advocate for education and you maintain that your education record is one of the hallmarks of your first term in office. Why then are faculty members at the University of Missouri in open revolt.

Well the education record of the administration is strong. We've had a 47 percent increase in funding for education in terms of funding for higher education the per pupil appropriation for the state of Missouri has gone from 40th in the nation to twenty ninth in the nation during my administration the opportunities in education are expanding more students are going to college than ever before in the history of the state. With that kind of funding increase we should be able to do a better job. And we've asked that education do a better job by being involved in assessment programs at the institutions. When I became governor of the state the Big Eight average was above the salary structure at the University of Missouri. We've moved that salary structure up. Now am Amcu is above the Big 8 average and we continue to want to do even more to improve education but it's more than just providing funding. Our challenge is to make sure that education gets to the young people and that's what my responsibility is so it's more than just more money for education it's more education for the money. We'll continue to make that kind of progress that we made during the first four years and I

believe will improve education for the young people of Missouri. Mr. Rivers we've been talking about education reform for the last 30 years but all of this talk and new legislation has not really accomplished what it is intended to do. In fact many of the reform programs have done just the opposite. They have contributed to the decline in our schools performance. All of these proposals have been missing the boat. There's a simple way to shape our schools up without increasing taxes. And that's to give parents education vouchers redeemable at the school of their choice education vouchers are the only proposed solution that will number one return control of the schools to the parents. Increased competition in the schools to provide good education provide better choices and education than the so-called magnet schools and allow the poor to escape the trap of inadequate government schools. This can also significantly reduce the total cost of education in Missouri it's time to stop messing around with our kids life. If we want

serious education reform we've got to return control to the parents. That's exactly what educational vouchers will do. I serve on the Appropriations Committee that sees recommendations from the governor's office and where we see a 47 percent increase if we have gone with the recommendation would have been about 36 percent. My top priority for public higher education is to restore its funding base so the universities can retain their finest faculty and recruit quality new instructors. If we do not reverse the decline of our universities no amount of economic development money will make a difference. I have said financial neglect of Missouri's Republican governors in this decade has impaired the vitality of Missouri's colleges and universities. I would say to you that I recommend restore and improve the funding for colleges and universities strengthen instruction and research programs create competitor centers restore and improve need based student financial

aid funding. Equally disturbing about our higher education is the 107 percent increase in student fees and the lack of adequate student financial aid. I've served on those committees and I think this would help to improve. The next question for all candidates know from Terri Ganey were the first response from Mr. Roberts Mr. Roberts. Here are some examples of news releases and speeches and position papers put out by Governor Ashcroft and here are some examples of speeches and news releases put out by Mrs. Harris and here Mr. Roberts is what you have put out about your campaign. Given the level of explanation that you've given Missouri voters about the Roberts candidacy can you say why we should take you seriously. Well first of all I'm going to have to correct you on that being the extent of the news releases that I have put out. I have had several news releases out including the position paper on drugs that was a response to John Ashcroft's attack on me during the last debate. I have had several news releases in

addition to that. I have bent over backwards trying to reach the media in this campaign. Some of them have been very good about that. And I can point to some examples if you'd like some of them have not. Yes sir. I have I have been in St. Louis in fact I've talked to the editors of your paper this past week. I'm surprised that you don't know that because all of the reporters there were invited to attend. I have in fact campaign virtually all over the state. And I do have a name recognition problem I grant you that and I am real sorry that the media has not been more conducive toward getting our message out. You have received. I'm not sure that you specifically but your paper has received a number of additional news releases over and above what you have. There isn't the real reason. I'm sorry under the rules that were not permitted for a quiet night. I'm certain that's the case today. But that's the way it is. This is Hearn's a question about papers and positions. I have the position on economic development

the position paper on higher education the position paper on elementary and secondary education the position paper on drugs which has been issued the position paper on rural economic development. All of those will be released within the last three weeks of the campaign like every other day to a reference. Yes. Thank you very much. I've been pleased to issue significant position papers. I think there are seven or six or seven dozen specific proposals about the future of the state and it's important that we have specific proposals and that we offer them to the people and enlist their aid and support in getting them done. Let me go back for just a moment to the charges of Representative Hearn's about education and education funding and about daycare funding. She indicates that because I cut some of the proposed appropriation that I was cutting funding for these programs. Simply not true. We've been increasing funding for a number of these programs dramatically. I've just been able to do everything that was asked by the legislature and

incidentally I've had to cut about or withhold about $350 billion in spending daycare though for low income people up 63 percent that's not a cut. Education funding up 47 percent a greater share of the state budget than when I became governor. That's not a cut. So we've got to be careful about how we handle these statistics to say I cut things when I really didn't cut them but just didn't give as much of an increase as someone might have wanted to spend is unfair. Our next question from Carol Winoker. With Mrs. Moon's to answer for this is turns some have been critical of the negative advertising in this year's election campaigns. Why was it that you decided to run the TV spot with Governor Ashcroft singing. I got plenty of nothing. And don't you think that ad is somewhat of a cheap shot. No I don't. I think the ad has has a message. I'm sort of a humorous person and it was my attempt at a lighthearted way to say that we don't have any legislative proposals from the governor's office.

It is unfortunate but it's true that a challenger like myself not only suggests a plan for improving mediocre government but you must explain why the incumbent must defeated must be defeated. That campaign ad says there's no record as far as negative ads are concerned. Let's let me. Let me just say this to you. I see that the letter that went out on Governor Ashcroft's stationery and says that I have no regard for the truth and I believe in distorting the facts and I have a mud machine. You know when you start talking about negative ads these things are all negative in any kind of a campaign. As far as that campaign commercial is concerned I didn't consider that. I thought it was a lighthearted way to address a serious problem. Governor Ashcroft Well I don't mind that he's shooting from the lips but I don't like shooting from my lips. I thought I sang a little better than that Betty. I'm sorry. Pardon. So. Well good. I thought that was your voice. But if you say you sung with

them. Yes. I know you do Betty. The problem that I see with the ads is that there are distortions and it reflects a willingness to distort my position not only my face but my lips and I'm not concerned about distortions of my face or my mouth or even my singing voice. I am concerned about distortions of the facts in these campaigns and that's what we ought to be most concerned about. And the record which we have said before the people is a clear record. It's a record of achievement. It's a record in terms of job creation. It's a record in terms of education spending is up. But most importantly test scores are up they're up dramatically. More people are going to college than ever before for the first time in history more than 50 percent of our young people are going on to college. This augurs well for the future. We're interested about the future of this state. That's what this campaign is about is what are we going to do to meet the challenges of the 90s and to be competitive in the next century and having improved education having better test scores to demonstrate that having improved funding having a better job market. These are the things that are going to help Missouri launch itself into the

90s and into the next century successfully and that's why focus on them in the campaign. Mr.. Robert. Carol you can't accuse the libertarians of negative advertising because we just flat haven't done any yet. And maybe that's what Mr. Gagne was referring to a few minutes ago when he said that we haven't said anything to his paper we have not seen any paid ads to your paper. I grant we are on a lower budget than either of the other two candidates. Are my conversations about John Ashcroft and Barry Hearn's are simply to point out that they are not always what they seem. John Ashcroft has been the biggest tax increase governor in Missouri's history and I can back that up. I don't consider that negative advertising although I'm sure he does. I don't think it's necessary to engage in negative campaigning. We have some substantial issues that we need to get out in front of the people. And I'm in hopes that we can do that through this campaign. The next question from Steve Krzycki with Mr. Roberts to be the first responder. Mr. Roberts Mr. Ashcroft and Mrs. Hearn's that each issued statements as to how

they plan to fight drug abuse in our state. Can you say at the top three features of your program and indicate why your program would be more effective than your opponents. Once again I have mailed to your paper a position paper on on drugs and this was as a response to the to the. Attack that Ashcroft made on me during the last debate. We don't feel that the drug program has worked that it has been a total disaster. The drug situation is much worse than it was four years ago or eight years ago when the Republicans started this great war on drugs the drugs the drug program is causing a lot of our problems. It has driven the price up to where over 50 percent of the violent crime in the United States is in order to get money for these extremely expensive drugs. I have one and a half year old son and I'm extremely concerned about about taking care of the drug problem. But I don't think we can do it that way. We learned we should have learned a

lesson after Prohibition. We cannot legislate morality and we are simply creating a price support for a very evil group that are selling drugs to our kids. We've got to stop it right now. Mrs. Hearn's. The drug crisis I have issued my position paper on the drug crisis in Missouri and I would say this to you that in the general assembly an appropriation committee on which I sit we have had requests from the Highway Patrol for other law enforcement personnel in order to attack the drug crisis. It did not come as a recommendation from the governor's office but we did put in 10 new personnel that would be working in that area. My drug crisis paper says that we would in neighborhood organizations and businesses to assist in curtailing the drug trade to provide our law enforcement with proper government funding which is what I just mentioned. Explore ways in which we can have juvenile involvement in the distribution and sale of drugs pass legislation which defines mandatory sentences for drug traffickers. Improve the

quality and access to drug or alcohol rehabilitation programs. We did have 1.6 million dollars in alcohol drug and alcohol abuse that lapsed this year because we were not in a in a situation to use it when you have purchased a service you have a diagram this big in order to be able to purchase services and to participate in this program in Missouri. It's very complicated. It needs to be simplified in order to qualify for the federal money. Governor Ashcroft Well Mike I understand why you didn't get involved in advertising. I think if you were to expose your position on drugs it would be considered negative advertising on your own you're in favor of legalizing cocaine and crack and all the other drugs that you're also in favor of eliminating public schools abolishing Medicaid and Medicare and Social Security so I understand your advertising point. We do have a program to work against the tide of drugs which are very threatening to us. I've called out the National Guard to assist the highway patrol. We have more highway patrol officers working

exclusively on drugs than ever before. We've provided about three million dollars to local police forces to upgrade equipment and personnel and there is an agenda that we need to implement in order to further our war against drugs and I have pledged to support wiretaps for drug investigations more funding for law enforcement the creation of a separate felony offense for using children in the drug operation drug kingpins or using our kids as drug runners. And the limitation of availability of bond for dangerous drug dealers. I want to do that and I think we need to amend our death penalty so that people who kill someone in order to keep them from being a witness at a drug trial ought to be subject to the death penalty as well. Terry again you know this question to Mrs. Burns with the others to follow. Mrs. Hearn's in much of your campaign rhetoric you have talked about leadership and you have accused the governor of not being a leader. Would you please cite three examples of leadership that you've shown in the past 10 years in the Missouri legislature

that have that has impacted the lives of Missourians. Well yes I can. I am at this time I'd just like to say to you that in my record and you noticed in the last time when Governor Racicot said he said that he had. I have no record. And I think that's what you're asking Terry. So I just quickly went through a number of bills that have my name on it as a co-sponsor. And when you're elected to the legislature you know you co-sponsor a number of bills. The inference that he made that I didn't work I didn't sponsor bills I didn't help in any way he's wrong. I've worked on the education I've worked on elementary education. I've worked to fund those programs. I work to fund higher education. I I did the genetic testing for children which I think is very important. There's three areas right there that I've worked in the general assembly. So I think that you have to choose the work that I did in the prisons in prison reform did not have legislation and that committee does not hear legislation. As most people know who serve in the General Assembly

we have to go into the prisons inspect and then make a report to the governor and the General Assembly. Those are three areas even for Terry that I think I've I've really made a contribution to the state. Governor Ashcroft Well I have a record of having boosted education of having built the job environment of having worked hard to move Missouri forward. But it's not surprising that Mrs. Hearn's wants to talk about co-sponsorship because after 10 years in the legislature she's only sponsored and passed four bills and they've been very insignificant when we established a rainy day fund to break the boom and bust cycle of state spending. She was one of only four members of the House to vote no when the cash operating reserve fund was put into the Constitution. So the state could pay its bills on time. She was one of only six members to vote no. She voted three times yes on a proposal that watered down the state's tax limitation. She's voted to spend over $150 billion more than we had which I had to veto three times she voted against stiffer penalties for

DWI. Driving While Intoxicated she's voted against tough penalties for dealing in drugs on school grounds on or near school grounds and the fact of the matter is her record is very skimpy when it comes to substantive legislation. Some of those bills that she claims to have co-sponsored I'm sure will be the kinds where you have as many as 30 or 40 co-sponsors. You can co-sponsor bills until you're blue in the face. The sponsors always want someone else to come up and just put their name on the bill. Mr. Roberts. I'm I'm going to have to agree with Mrs. Hearn's on this one I think we have shown a tremendous lack of leadership in the governor's office. In 1985 the Republican auditor said that she thought that there was a 30 30 million dollar override of the Handcock Amendment and she needed governor's support in order to make that stick as a result we got none of those taxes back. Medicine is another. Another tremendous example although John Ashcroft has expressed some report about what I think is

going to be a very bad bill and I do hope we get a question on this one too. He has not taken the leadership necessary to offset the very popular position in the polls right now that as a result of the advertising by the people that are going to benefit from this bill I think another example is the state windfall tax increase. John Ashcroft says he wanted to refine that to the people that he didn't do anything about it. And his best proposal was only for 25 percent of the current Winokur no question to Governor Ashcroft and the others will follow. You lead right into my question Mr. Roberts. Governor Ashcroft recent federal tax reforms have resulted in millions of dollars flowing into Missouri's coffers as a result of the so-called federal tax windfall money. If ultimately come out in favor of keeping and spending the lion's share of those funds how would you answer voters who say that indeed that money is a hidden tax and should be returned to taxpayers.

Well it is tax money there's no question about it. My proposal was to split it about in half and give some important tax breaks where I think we need them in Missouri to give bigger deductions for families. We have the same basic family tax structure that we had in 1946 giving people the same deduction for having a family we did back then. That's been a tremendous increase. I wanted to change the tax code so that we could help people save for college educations with the kind of an IRA that would help people put money away for college educations. I wanted to increase our ability to help older Missourians accommodate the burden of taxes and those were my proposals in that area. Those proposals were turned down flatly by the General Assembly. They simply weren't accepted. So it's important to note that I made those proposals I've pushed them in good faith and I think they were good proposals. They would benefit the people of the state of Missouri. Now the proposal was for half of the the consequence of the federal tax changes. I might note that previously the federal government has made other changes that took money from the state in the early 80s when they changed the laws about investment credits and all

it decrease the amount of taxes that the state of Missouri would receive. So it's important that you understand that balance. Mr. Roberts. OK. Number one I think that the total windfall tax increase has to be returned to the people. And is the only fair thing to do. John Ashcroft claims that he wanted to return half of that to the people. My understanding is that his proposal was about $50 billion. And Wendell Bailey our State Treasurer's comments just this past week were that the current estimate or his current estimate is $200 billion so that only sounds like a quarter to me. On the other in addition to that I think the the $50 billion that Ashcroft was talking about returning would have been required by the Handcock amendment anyway. I'm not real sure that he was giving us anything that we would not have gotten otherwise. At any rate if we need those taxes we need to vote on it. Either the people or the legislature needs to vote on those taxes. And barring that we need to return those to the people

as suggestions of increasing the state. Exemptions or is a good one that's a good way to return it. But let's do it. Mrs. Hearn's. And the windfall discussions that we had in the general assembly and we had many plans presented to us in the caucus. I even had a Bonaventure plan which was not agreed on by the caucus in the house but the House did go on record the House of Representatives did go on record as favoring returning the money the windfall to the people. But I would point out to you that the governor used one hundred twenty five million dollars of the windfall the same year. He said he would return it he built at the end of the budget. And in the Budget Committee the budget chairman told us it took a while to find. They did find the 125 million dollars bill to them. And so I'd like to say that the House did go on record as favoring the return of the money. Steve cresc you know it's a question to Mrs. Hearn's. Is this Hearn's. You said your top priority for education would be a campaign to fight illiteracy through testing of third grade students. Governor

Ashcroft has said the cornerstone of his education program is a plan to issue warranties to graduating high school students who meet certain qualifications. Can you explain your proposal and indicate why Ahern's administration would be better for education than an Ashcroft administration. I have. I am a school teacher by profession. And so I have had dealings in that with all the children of all ages and I know that illiteracy is a big problem in Missouri and we fight it on the front side as well as the back side which I have said throughout this campaign even though it might seem that a governor would not have the ability or the power to give emphasis at this level. That's wrong. A governor's office can give emphasis as at most levels I have said in a quality school program that I would recommend that we set the curriculum priorities and stress stress accomplishments in reading and writing at the third grade level and be sure they can read and write when they get out there and if they don't then let the teacher let the

teacher do what the teacher knows how to do. Let the teacher do it do their mission. They know what their mission is. Let the teacher teach and develop a right to teach the children. I think it's extremely important. It will prevent the drop out if events are no job training. It prevents an adult literacy and it solves a lot of problems even though we're going to deal with it at the third grade level. Governor Ashcroft Well I'm pleased that Representative Hearn's. Is interested in testing at the third grade level because the Missouri mastery and achievement test which was implemented in the excellence and Education Program which he consistently voted against tests at four different levels during a person's time and education to assess whether or not we're getting the job done. So the proposal is really to do what is substantially already being done and our tests which are now being given are more than just in reading there in five basic categories and during the last test period we noted a 10 percent increase in student achievement between the 1987 and 1988 test. We want to do more than

just give a one shot test. We want a program that's going to result in people when they graduate actually being able to do what needs to be done. And the sequence of tests that we have in place now put in place by the excellence and Education Act is a way for us to have quality control so that when there are graduations individuals will indeed be able to do things and when they do graduate that way the smart program the skilled Missourians able and ready for tomorrow which I have proposed will mean that we can help every one of those kids academically qualified get on to college and that's an important thing because we improve the entire position of the state when we lift the educational level of the population. Mr. Roberts Governor Ashcroft for trade my position is trying to abolish the public school system and that is a total distortion of what I have proposed. I have proposed a voucher system which will in fact break the monopoly of the government school system and will allow parents a choice of how they want to educate their system. If Governor Ashcroft is saying that that will destroy the government education system then we've got something else

wrong with the government education system. The government education typically cost forty eight hundred dollars per student per year to educate a child. Private education is only only half of that $2500 per student per year. And when you get into the religious schools they get they drop all the way down to fifteen hundred dollars per student per year. Part of our problem with with kids not learning what they need to learn is the same system of teaching does not work for every student. Of a voucher system will allow those students to attend whatever school is best for their uses. It is the only way the ghetto kids are going to be able to escape the trap of the atrocious government schools that we've got now. Your question is to Governor group. Governor one of the prime responsibilities of being a governor is the ability to appoint judges appeals court Supreme Court and some circuit court judges during your term you appointed your chief of staff to the only vacancy that became available on the

Missouri Supreme Court. The chief of staff had the credentials that he was a lawyer and he was your good friend. Given the fact that the next governor will have the opportunity to appoint perhaps six judges to the Supreme Court what criteria will you use in considering the candidates. First of all I'll use the same criteria I used in my previous appointments and it's unfair for you to say that Judge Robertson's only credentials were that he was a lawyer and that he's a good friend. So an outstanding lawyer with a lot of experience having managed one of the biggest law firms in the state and done so very well and effectively argued at every level in the justice system. I will look for individuals who are keenly aware of the law who have a sensitivity to the need for justice who are willing to consider the rights of the victims as well as the rights of those who have been accused who have the mental capacity to do an excellent job who are prepared by virtue of experience and to have the integrity

to conduct themselves effectively as judges now I have a strong record in terms of the appointment of judges. I just noticed in the paper today the poll here in the Kansas City area relating to judges that I have appointed and their approval by the voters and they all average in the 80s and 90s in terms of approval by by the bar. So I'm proud of the judges I've appointed. And I'll continue to appoint judges of that caliber Mr. Roberts first of all I'd like to point out one thing about the John Ashcroft poll that he was quoting. Those were the approval rating by other lawyers not by the voters of the state of Missouri. I think it's very important that a judge be independent. And I think a key factor in appointing any judge is that the judges not be creating law when they make their decision. We have had a tremendous problem with that throughout the state of the judges creating law through there to decide their decision. That's the job of our state legislature and it is not the job of the of the judges. There are some good judges that are

Republicans. There are some good judges that are Democrats and there are a couple that are libertarians. I would appoint judges because of their balance in their views and because they are not going to try to create law when they make their decisions. Mrs. Hernanes the nonpartisan court plan was set up to let. A judicial commission suggest to the governor a panel of three who are qualified to be judges. In some dealings that I've had in some past years. I have never seen a governor give any suggestions or interfere in any way. I think if that commission is allowed to work and the governor stays out of it and the chief justice stays out of it and it's allowed to work and we're careful about the people we put on the panel that they represent the areas they're supposed to or the professions are supposed to then I think you're going to have a good panel. However I would say that through these last eight years I have seen many times when you might trace a contribution to a campaign

which they find their friends and they. There has been a charge of favoritism in selecting of judges. So there's a correlation there. I think I think it would work if the governor the chief justice stay out of it and let the nonpartisan court plan work as it should. Carol Winokur know we'll have a question for Mr. Roberts because Mr. Roberts the Libertarian Party is a relative newcomer to the political scene. Realistically you must know that you don't really stand a chance of winning this election. So why run. Well as it stands right now there's only one candidate that really stands much chance of winning this election. I think both of the two opponents of the position we're trying to say that he hasn't done everything right. And we would like to express our opinions on some of thing. We want to give the voters an opportunity to express their opinions on some of those things. Right now both the Democrats and Republicans both not only for the governor's race but throughout virtually all the political races are for bigger government more taxes

bigger government. We don't think that's the answer. We think private solutions are the answer. There are a lot of alternatives to throwing more and more dollars at the various problems that we have in our state and we have some serious problems. The drug problem is a serious one but we've thrown billions of dollars at that. Nationwide the price of cocaine is down from $60000 a gram. Or excuse me a kilogram in 1980 to about 10 to 15 right now. We're not at those those solutions are not working and we need to correct those. Mrs. Hearn's. I think I can win because I have a grassroots organization in the field working all the time. I know the counties in Missouri. I've been across Missouri a number of times and I've been around a few years. I have shown leadership throughout these years despite what Governor Ashcroft has to say. And I have a vision for Missouri a vision which simply says Missouri can be better. Missouri will create and track good paying jobs instead of losing 29000 as it did in 1987. Missouri will properly and adequately fund its

education programs so that we rank higher than 47 and higher education and 36 and elementary and secondary. Missouri will care for those who need help the working poor the mentally ill the homeless the unemployed. Missouri will do more than print bumper stickers that say most says no to fight to end this war. Empty rhetoric will not be a part of my platform. You see I'm not running for any other office than the office of governor of Missouri. I have no access to crime no ulterior motives. My vision says Missouri can be better. I will provide answers and solutions not promises and rhetoric. Governor Ashcroft I'm running for one basic purpose and that's to fulfill a dream and the dream is that every person in the state of Missouri will be able to reach the maximum of his or her God given potential. I think we do that if we expand the set of opportunities we have and we lift the level of capacities we have in this state. We've worked hard to expand that level of opportunity. We've worked hard by saying we wanted more jobs attracting jobs and there are a hundred and seventy nine thousand more jobs in this state today

than there were when I became governor. And we've worked to make the state more attractive we're listed number two. Now in terms of states that are attractive to industry. In addition we've sought to improve education and we've lifted the level of education our student test scores are going up and our commitment to education is going up. Simply wrong to say we're 47000 higher education when our purpose our per student appropriation for a higher education move from 40 to 29 during my administration. We are improving the funding but more importantly we are improving the ultimate product. That's the capacity of young people in this state to greet with a real capacity the future challenges. We want to be able to be productive in the future. Steve crasser you know Lance Governor Ashcroft the question I'm going to ask that the candidates respond in 30 seconds if you can get to 30 second questions. I'm not sure you can do this in 30 seconds governor but we'll give it a shot. The Democrats have mounted an 11th hour attack against your administration for its involvement in a controversial nursing home

settlement the heart of their attack ads that Missouri gave favorable treatment to the angel group nursing home chain because company owners gave $10000 to your first campaign for governor in 1984. Can you indicate now exactly what role your office played in reaching this settlement. Not really play a role in reaching the settlement. The Department of Social Services and the attorney general reached a settlement with the nursing home company that had sued the state. They they want at the trial level the state had appealed. Department of Social Services had been handling the litigation while I was attorney general on appeal the state won. And I had nothing to do with the settlement. My office. We divorced ourselves from the settlement basically because we had received some campaign contributions at a time prior to the time I became governor. The settlement was reviewed by federal authorities by federal agencies including law enforcement agencies and the settlement is in place and is bringing the money to the state.

Mr. Roberts I think one of the problems with our current system is that whether or not the government is involved and under the table sort of operations when something like that happens it becomes assume that they are one of the things that we need to take care of and reduces the amount of goodies that the government has to give away. We need to look for private solutions with voluntary contributions to take care of those things that our productivity in the private sector is two to four times what it is in the government sector so we can save a tremendous amount of money for doing that to. Mrs. Hearn's. I listened as Governor Ashcroft said made a statement about the angel corporation angel group and I would have to say to you that even though he said on one hand he did not. Know anything about it in 1986 he did have a statement in the paper that his administration was on top of it and he was watching. I think the explanation is self-explanatory. You've seen. The time has come for. Closing statements in the order determined. Before the program. But before we get

to that I'm going to ask some yes or no questions of you. Very briefly answers please. We'll start with the governor and go around the table. Do you plan to vote yes or no governor on constitutional amendment number eight. The medicine's plan. I have reservations about a constitutional amendment number eight and haven't reached a final decision. We need good health care for our citizens. But I have reservations about the nature of the taxes and the kinds of problems that seem to be inherent in what the constitutional amendment proposes. All right. My I plan to vote against. The Medicare program. Yes I will vote for the medicine program we have 650000 Missourians without health care insurance and we need it. I don't want to ask you about constitutional amendment number one. Would you shorten insertions of the General Assembly by voting yes. Governor I would vote against that because it allows the General Assembly to call itself into special session and I'm the only governor that hasn't had a special session since 1962. I don't believe that would help us reduce cost. I believe it would be more legislature than less.

Growers. I'm not totally decided on that when I agree with both Governor Ashcroft that it will be a detriment from the legislature being able to call themselves into session. I would like to see shorter sessions. I think the less time that they're in session the less damage they can do. Yes. I'm vote for that. Kerry again did you have a short question. Well. Mr. Roberts has campaigned on less taxes and less government. Missouri already is considered a low tax state. Mr. Roberts can you say what areas of government and what revenues you would cut if you became governor. Yes I've proposed an educational voucher system which has the potential of significant savings in government expenses. I would privatize a number of things such as the prison system. I think the states that are experimenting with that have seen it a 50 percent improvement in their in their dollar productivity. There are a number of things that we need to do. I think the planning and Economic Development Commission is totally redundant. The only way we can improve employment in Missouri is to get out of the way and the folks that

create the jobs. They. Need to have growth. While I believe that we can continue to improve circumstances in the state of Missouri substantially if we stay on the course we've charted improving our educational system expanding and lifting the capacity of students so they can confront the challenges of tomorrow productively and competitively and enlarging the number of jobs we've had and we've had a hundred and seventy nine thousand new jobs in the state of Missouri in the last three and a half three and three quarters years. It'll be 200000. I predict by January the 1st. That's the kind of growth we need. We need to continue to foster that we need to do it within the limits of fiscal responsibility. I won't spend the state into the kind of financial trouble the federal government's in. I'll keep a lid on what we are spending money here. The governor cannot raise taxes as you know the legislature cannot raise taxes because of the Handcock amendment must be voted upon by the people I say to you at this point I have no plan for raising taxes. Money will be raised through natural revenue growth by

strengthening the industrial system. The economic development system the education system and making our state attractive by collecting all the taxes due the state of Missouri and by allocating properly the 130 million dollars as state auditor reported was either misspent our uncollected in 1987. STEVE INSKEEP Do you have a question that can be answered in 30 seconds by. These candidates. I'll try another one. The last time the state executed a prisoner on Death Row was in 1965. As you all know the state is about ready to resume the practice where you state your position on capital punishment and explain if there are any circumstances where you as a governor but commute a death penalty. The Rascoff my position is that the death penalty is a necessary part of an effective criminal justice system it's a sad event. But I believe we have to value life so dearly that we say to individuals that in certain circumstances where you are willing to destroy life we simply say you can't do that without our taking your life.

I don't believe the governor should interfere with the judicial system. I think it should operate now if there were a clear indication that a gross error had been made that someone was about to be executed who was clearly innocent and the judicial system had not discovered the error in its many 10 years probably of review then I would interfere otherwise. I believe that the death penalty is an important part of an effective criminal justice system. Mr. rubber's. I believe that the death penalty could be an effective part of the of the criminal justice system. However right now the way we are currently using the death penalty it is neither a detriment to somebody committing a crime nor is it cost effective it costs us more to execute somebody than it does to keep them in prison for the rest of their life. We have some serious problems with our with our legal system as a result of that. As I say I think there is the potential for the death penalty to be a good deterrent to certain types of crime. And I would definitely support that sort of a system as to whether or not I would commute somebody's sentence either. I think yes there is the possibility that that could happen but it

would be special circumstances. Mrs. Hearn's after all the avenues of Justice have been exhausted and I have no doubt in my mind I do favor the death penalty. I do think in some instances it is a deterrent. But if I had a doubt. You said I can't even think of a situation right now. But if I had a doubt of course I would be willing to commute. I want to ask you another yes or no sir to the question do you think more prisons ought to be built into the gun. Well we've put about 5000 new spaces online during the last four years. We've made the contract to get them in place. And I believe that we have to have adequate prison space to accommodate the judicial system. I am in favor of doing some other things. We have experimented with some devices which allow us to keep track of people in their own homes if they're guilty of certain kinds of crimes and they aren't threats they're radio devices and there are other tracking potentials that give us hope that we don't have to keep spending so much of the state's revenue in terms of the construction of facilities so I'm willing to

consider a wide variety of alternatives there. Thank you Mr. Rivers. As I mentioned a few minutes ago I would recommend privatizing our prison system. This gives us the opportunity to number one use private money to build additional prisons. It also gives us a tremendous opportunity to reduce our costs. I think it was served as the chairman of the Joint Committee on Craigslist petitions and problems for four years and the vice chairman for six years I'm glad the governor agrees with what we've done because our committee certainly has worked in that area. We have built a prison with a lease purchase which is new in Potosi Missouri we have coming online to other prisons and we have done the work. When I first took over as chairman we were in a riot situation. There were salaries were down and the institutions were in in bad shape. We have done tremendous work. I think we've got to use all the alternatives and maybe have to have some more beds and honored arms. The time has come though for closing statements will be made in the order determined by a draw before the program. And first it is

many hands. Thank you very much. I would say to you in closing I thank you very much for letting me be on this program today with these two gentlemen who are running for the office of governor of Missouri. In positions ranging from schoolteacher and volunteer from my church and numerous charities to first lady and state legislator. I spent my life trying to make Missouri a better place to live. And my 10 years in the general assembly I've worked countless hours on the issues that make a difference to people. The negative Ashcroft ads depicting my legislative career as lackluster are false. I've already showed showing you the bills on numerous bills that I have worked on through these years and the access to the education bill. The sponsor is here and he knew why I did not vote for it because he knew the career ladder was a problem due to funding. He knew that the 80s might lead to a statewide mandated curriculum. He also knew that the the beginning salary would not take care of the five year teacher or the three year teach other 20 year teacher. There were some real problems with that bill and the sponsor who is here knew that in my 10

years the General Assembly I have been there 99 percent of the time I think I've only missed five days in 10 years I know the people I know their needs and they know my record. So does the speaker of the house he paid me a high compliment when he called me a workhorse and not a show horse. That's the difference in this campaign. I have a vision from Missouri. I'm vision of Missouri which fulfills its great potential. Missouri which will import rather than export the jobs of Missouri which will not accept mediocrity in education. I envision a Missouri in which state government will be a catalyst for positive change. John Ashcroft has no vision for this day. He gives no hope for players for the growing numbers of uninsured poor and middle class workers. He continues to fail adequately to fund quality public education. He doesn't support more law enforcement personnel or treatment programs for the ever increasing increasing drug problem. He talks about our industrial base is eroding. That's the Ashcroft administration. All talk no action no answers but always willing to take credit when it's not. Do I have a vision for those who want a better

Missouri I say. Vote for Betty Hearn's on November the. Governor Ashcroft. Thank you. And let me thank the people of Missouri for the opportunity to serve the many dedicated citizens who have helped us build real progress in making Missouri a place where every man and woman rich or poor has a better chance to reach his or her full measure of God given potential. That's been my goal as governor to achieve that goal. We've worked hard on education jobs transportation public health and safety. And Missouri is moving ahead. Our opponents don't try to deny that most things are going well for Missourians under my administration. Instead this election has bogged down in petty carping about who gets what percent of the credit for the progress that we're making. Well it takes cooperation from a lot of people to get things moving ahead. And the real test them and then the real test of an administration is not what you can do without the legislature. It's what you can do with the legislature to cooperate. We know that Representative Hearn's voted against things like excellence in education against the rainy day

savings account for the state against the cash flow reserve cash operating reserve for license Reg revocations for DWI individuals and for tougher penalties for those who would push drugs on our kids on our school grounds. Now these efforts have to have been made without her support. But the future is what this election is all about. And I've been taking it seriously discussing specific proposals releasing position papers and we've got more to come. For me of course the guiding dream continues to be an environment where Missourians reach the maximum of their potential. I believe that we can achieve that dream by developing individual capacity with good schools job training expanding the opportunity in job markets giving every qualified young person access to college education and a wide variety of other opportunities and pursuits. We're building both opportunity and capacity in this state. Missouri is not just moving. I believe we're on a winning roll please. I ask the voters of this

state and thanked them for their help help us keep this role moving ahead during the next four years. Mike Roberts. Thank you for your attention this evening. Did you notice what I was saying earlier about the other two candidates. They're are two peas from the same pod aren't they. John talks a good line about being conservative. But under his four years Missouri's combined tax burden burden has increased faster than in any other governor. Yes he has been a successful governor. He has been more successful attempt passing Democratic tax proposals than even the slickest Democrat governor. He's increased the gas tax by four cents a gallon. Three other governors before him were not able to do that. He lowered the voter majority requirement for passage of property taxes two times. That's two times more than all of the other governors in Missouri history. He got by with keeping all of our state income tax windfall. Can you imagine a Democrat governor getting away with that. He's been so successful at passing Democrat tax increases that I'm surprised the Democrats

didn't nominate him as their gubernatorial candidate. I'm tired of this. Too to one upmanship brand of politics that the other two parties engage in. I have proposed some very progressive reforms to change the way we do business in Jefferson City. First I repeat that I will not raise your taxes if you elect me Governor. I will work hardest for the enactment of the educational voucher system that I outlined earlier. If we don't do something drastic about our educational quality then I fear my one and a half year old son may not be prepared prepared to compete in the job market in the next century. And if we don't do something to improve education without increasing taxes then I'm afraid my folks generation are going to have to sell their homes because they can't afford the higher property taxes. That's the kind of government I want to bring to Missouri government that respects individuals as the common sense Americans that we are. If you're tired of bigger and bigger costlier and more intrusive government then why don't you vote Libertarian for a change. At least this time you've got a choice. Thank you and good evening.

I want to thank our candidates for being with us. Mike Roberts. This is Hearn's and I do apologize in advance for an inadvertent unfortunate error. Early in the program. The fault was mine and no one else in this program has come to you from the studios of KCET Kansas City public television. I'm John Masterman. Goodnight