From the Source; Hyde Park - From Racial Violence to Racial Harmony

Section of Boston Mr. Jim Wells was a staff person for a High Park in 98. We'll be talking about the evolution of a community changes in the community changes from primarily a white community to a black community and the kinds of human problems racial problems that developed in that community. We'll also be looking at the way that the residents of this community have come to grips with these problems and how they have designed solutions to these problems. Welcome Susan Page two from the source. Thank you and welcome Jim Walsh two from the source. Thanks. Well we start off by talking to Susan Page and let me just tell you if you'd like to participate in this dialogue the number is 9 and 7 9 7 9 2 9 you have any comments or questions you'd like to make about changes in communities and right here in your comments or fears. And if you'd like to express something feel free to call and your comments are welcome. Start up with Susan Page.

Perhaps I can call you Susan. When you get into them to explain the first day well we moved in from three biological children of my own and I had two children. And we didn't know very much about the neighborhood. What we did know it was a very nice looking neighborhood and had a very beautiful park directly across from the house which you can see the children playing from your living room window while you you know looked out the window make a go to packing with Mary. That was on me and even more the name of it with it was a very looking neighborhood. OK and that's what we were concerned about when I noticed at the time that there were several offers up for sale on the same neighborhood ringing up it was just a little. When we left that people weren't trying to get out of bed because a bus was coming and everybody was

fearing his bus. We also didn't know at the same time lived next door to the president. Which was a buffing group. We don't know yet but we think that the way that was. Right next door to one of our presidents the president vice president of planning and it was a big one neighbor but everything we didn't know any of it at the time of the real estate because it was. Like I said we were just concerned that it was a nice looking neighborhood neighborhood that industry you know of American. Yeah this is where you think something like that again. So we were you know we've got you know the first time I went in with you know you know some tint from the window maybe the next day we'd go outside and there was I was with him standing there with you spray painting on the wall our thing you know.

Niggas go and plant you've heard. Of that when you first saw what you did have insurance company only you know I mean we got a place first because we just thought it was. We didn't want to make a big ben out of any with women in a black family neighborhood we will smarten up you know we were a minority then we watched you know things will settle down we're going to make too much out of it and you know clean it up and just go on about your business you know that with that attitude what then. A parade of people started a Caribbean one that was sitting on fat sweaty going by house with American flags on the front of it and the saying in shouting niggas go niggas go we don't want you here I mean when I see a cab and after having a car that. Maybe 25 I want to know about with kids in the car waving out American flags all kinds of

you know red white and bayonets that anything they could buy read and write and waving it at us niggas gone. That's when we realized we couldn't sit out any time without fact it was that things that now I don't want you live when there's maybe about a month and had to call the police but we have been we have to go on the police and they told us that. Yes the people in the neighborhood you know don't pay any attention else so we tried to you know and I believe it was very much of a thing in a regular American citizen call you please whatever you please because I'm going to do it. So I didn't pay any attention and I went got to go. Well you could just play in the backyard. You know if you're staying in the backyard you'll be all right. You know things that are going to the backyard because I want you missed me in the back yeah it's that wanting to beat on them over teenagers these little children are wanting to be on them beginning point in their own backyard. We had a pool. They too are. Going to bed rock upon one that was being destroyed when I access it when I yeah.

And you've got a place that immediately the police I think they maybe came an hour or so later I can't remember how long it was to get to that. We continue to talk about this. We continue to think you know there's something going on out here why can't we get a policeman because could know a lot. You can go to the park. I moved in last June 74 my daughter had a nylon some of soda and she went to the park and a teenager told her to get out the pack we don't want any niggers in Rossville this time she was a little kid who said my mother said I can bring your laughter at this time he took a comic book and took a cigarette out of that the comic book on fire and then this time he said her blouse and fire. Another girl which could not stand by and watch this happen a white girl grabbed her and we were in the bit so only part of her back at this time. My friend ran home and got me and I ran to a croc and I asked which kid being the mother I am. I grabbed a kit when the

police came. I got a rest are abusing a minor. They couldn't find you think about it without a doubt they ever find that they have a comeback you know. Now your turn to be honest I have a black family and walk out of court if you get well you are the tickler time it was one of the black family that that was having the same amount of rage but we didn't close the gap machine with a class from another field and in DC field Washington Street and we want like in walking distance of each other we would clap. It's been I think a bridge over from that. We would call each other and talk to each other and try to give each of us and we support you know whatever we can feel. At this time. Incident started happening with my foster kids. The neighborhood didn't want me having my foster kids because. The vision of Public Welfare at the time wasn't DSS

and by putting complaints about the kids being there I would have these kids in Roxbury for seven years. Department of Public Welfare decided that the kids couldn't live there anymore because it was unfair and it was very upsetting for my family because these kids have lived with me for seven years. OK so they were removed from my home. By this time their lives the kids would break our windows we run out fabric try to capture and if you hit one of the kids you were immediately the next day or something. You go to court. I was receiving three and four things that they're about yelled at and. She took me to court to do bodily know. What quarter to go to West Roxbury courthouse and her being turned out well the first time I got in trouble I got arrested because a woman smacked my 3 year old daughter because she told me she didn't want her daughter playing with any little nigger kids. And I did her daughter and didn't understand it might do it in this day and so they continued to play. And she came outside and she told my daughter she said I thought I told you I didn't want. You. Playing with my daughter and my daughter

just looked at it and she smacked her. So my older daughter ran home and told me so I went down to her house and I said Scuse me there must be some misunderstanding because my daughter tells me that you just smacked. My daughter and I don't believe an adult would do this and she said I told her I did not want her playing with my daughter I don't want my daughter nigga children at this time. A confrontation took place in me and the woman and the next day. I was served with want. OK and I had to show up in West Roxbury courthouse. I didn't know anything about lawyers only lawyer I had was loaded past papers in the house I never had a parking ticket with a high plateau. This was the beginning of it at the courthouse. An attorney named Winston kindo. Burnham. Joining max during. Mating call when. In dealing so with Sting. Moore's lawyer showed up and it was so funny because the judge said I know people are in here for murder we don't have lawyers you know what's going on he almost didn't want to let the boys commit. But they knew that it was pretty serious because I had like it was assault to do bodily harm.

At the time I had. An Eldorado and they said that I tried to run one of the children over with gold teeth GTL. And I didn't even own a goatee teel the city children so I tried to run him over in my charges were pretty serious It wasn't like one I had like a list of them. And. This so find lawyers who have heard about this and showed up in court. I mean I didn't know any of them and they were you know nice enough to know that I needed help. And they took over and they just like I'm like I'm like I just said they took over. So authorities just yeah they you know everything just disappeared seem like I couldn't believe it. But this was an end of it it was continuously like this all the time. If we went to the grocery store once I was chased out. Women started spitting on me. And stock market hype gap. OK. You couldn't go anywhere. You just couldn't agree to everything because you know you know I was in a contract now what about your children how did be feel about the term for him to come to you in a moment you know. You know it's really funny. My kids are a lot like me. We're very strong We're

fighters. We believe in when we're right no one's going to tell us anything different. My son had a lot of emotional problems in my all my children did. My son had to much and had to go to platinum selling children's services for psychological problems. They also had my son could not. Be taught by white teachers in the first three years of school he was kept back. Because he needed to be taught but he did not trust white people he did not want them teaching him anything. He was kept there to first grade they found out they did the psychological work up may decide that he definitely needed black teachers for his first two years in school. So it was arranged by the Boston school department and psychologically the climate that he was only to be taught by black teachers. OK. Roger writes from Harvard School on education was the lawyer that handled it and helped me get this for my son. What about the daughter who got burned. Nicole it's really fighting the cold is a real fighter. She's still on in High Park. She's the only black cheerleader for the high Pop Pop wanted cheerleading team. She's been the only black team leader ever since she's been MIA and she still lives

as of this year and she refuses to go that we go. This kid has been spit on. We go to the games in like to the end you have to watch your back you have to watch everything because I'm still nervous. As long as I've been I'm still nervous. She walks to Kelly's feel. She she's not willing to give it up. This is something she felt she fought hard for when she came that she couldn't play must feel now she has a football practice cheerleading practice in a vast field and she feels she earned it and she's going to keep it. Well it seems like there have been some significant changes in Hyde Park over the over the years. When we shift the focus a little bit and move over to Jim Walsh Jim Walsh his step person for Hyde Park united. And. Jim when did you get involved in Hyde Park and why did you get involved with Hyde Park and perhaps you could explain to our listening audience what Hyde Park United is sure or want to start there. I thought you know what it is neighborhood based group in the purpose of the group is to promote racial harmony in Hyde Park. When I got started in the wake of some other racial incident

incidents other racial violence that took place in Hyde Park in 1982 the Rothfield incidents and it was at that time that. Racial violence particularly the Roskilde it's been said received a lot of play in the local press on TV in the Boston Globe and what have you. And as a result of that attention there was a lot of public upset about the fact that racial violence was a real problem and a multi racial group of local residents began to meet. After those incidents and ask themselves what could we do to prevent that sort of thing from happening in the future. And Frank Jones who is president of Boston Committee. Came down and came out I quote met with those residents and after some discussions they decided to form a group to hire a staff person and to engage in some projects that would on the one hand prevent and or manage incidents of racial violence. And on the other hand to act proactively positively to bring people from very definite and racial backgrounds together. To work on common issues. And to

promote harmony through working on these common issues. OK now how difficult was that to move to bring him back. How did you go about getting people involved. Obviously Miss Page is described in a very serious and divisive situation in the community. How do you go about getting people to talk and to respect the town. Well you know this is. Susan story is not the only story I've I've heard of racial violence but every time I hear a different story in person particular I am just. Stunned. At the details of it. And. In some way I have two feelings arise on the one hand I'm just outraged. That something like that could happen. And on the other hand now. Well I think I do think that I park continue to struggle with some of these issues and will continue to struggle with them for some time to hear that description versus what it is today. It sounds as if it were another timer or another planet or so by the time I came on board things had cooled out a little and I part although the Roskilde incidents were certainly significant. They weren't. As severe as some of the things that Susan has had to

go through in fact if you look at the numbers of racial incidents you'll find that in the late 1970s Hyde Park Bell one of the smallest communities in Boston. Had the highest number of racial incidents. It has now in the mid 1980s dropped way down. It is no longer on the priority list for the community disorders unit which is the department of police that investigates incidents of racial violence but I guess I should answer your question and that is how do you get folks together on the other. Well when I first began I was a newcomer to the community and I began talking to the people who had already expressed an interest or concern about this and part of it was an appeal to direct self-interest there are whites and blacks that lived around the Ross feel area lived around the area that Susan used to live in that were concerned about what was going to happen to the neighborhood and regardless of what color their skin was they were concerned about the violence was going to get out of hand in effect or that there was going to hurt their property values or what have you so there are some element of interest right there right off the bat

and there were institutions in High Park at the YMCA the development company and others that wanted to see an end to that sort of behavior but. After getting that core group down and building a base talking to friends and asking who they thought their friends would be that would be interested in talking to those people and trying to get to more out of that. We built a solid group that met monthly and then we started to engage and as I said before projects that we thought would bring people together. Some of them were on crime some of them more on youth programming housing. Those sorts of things and in doing that as you engage in projects people become interested in what you're doing and then they come to an event we might have a housing fair and come to the event to learn more about how to fix up their house but then they'll learn about hyperkinetic and decide that they want to go ahead and go to one meeting and one meeting leads to two and. Two leads to a subcommittee and and so on down the line. You express that one goal you had AS. Part of Hyde Park united. Goal would be all wrong. It would be to

prevent violence and then we've heard Susan talk earlier about the blatant violence that she and her family experienced and the lack of police response. Right. Have you seen a change in the attitude of the police toward these kinds of issues since you've been involved. Well more division I'm not going to speak about the attitudes of the police. As a whole because. I don't know and there's you know there are different opinions about that but certainly the structure of the police department changed when Susan was having. Her difficulties. I'm not sure about this but I don't think there was yet such a thing as the community disorders in the 80s and it started out like in the 1980s. That's right things if you call a community just you didn't even call the police anymore. I mean you just can't really disown he didn't even think about going now with a more responsible very good it was. Eric Ehrlich so. You might have just seen him in the papers wife just became a police officer with him about three weeks ago when the front page of The Hill he was excellent and a woman police are saying in that member and they were excellent. If we call them they

came they went to Westfield they found some. If they did nothing but harass the kids every night to make them know hey don't hang in this park. After dark when I grew up because you'll be picked up by rason this family. OK. They would they would go through the back. We had we were used to calling the police they would say hey look I'm not running they're not. I'm not chasing the kids. They would tell us right out. I'm not. Going to know. Back with the policeman tells me. What you want you. Want you want white wines they can't take this move. You know. So I mean we have policeman whose sons. Were the ones that was doing. OK. I mean coming to why I grabbed one son one more one at my front door and it was a policeman son and he had a white sheet over his head with a Ku Klux Klan. And I held him and I got in. And I found a policeman. So I mean 18 percent police. Renown as a community. Yeah something about Hyde Park and maybe you know back in 1970 Hyde Park had less than 1 percent minority cording to the 1980s.

I mean 70 sensors and 1980 10 years later. The census it was about 16 percent minority so you had to change from basically no minority people living in a park to a good chunk still a very small minority but still 80 percent of Hyde Park or more it was was white but still a significant change from the previous 10 years. It's a community that is very residential in character. I think something like 60 percent of the homes are single family. It's a community that has had a lot of people who have lived their generation after generation after generation passing the House on to their children and so on and so it was a community that did not receive change very well. Getting back to the community sort of you know the head of that unit was then Lieutenant McKee wrote to of course is now the police commissioner and I think the commune disorders unit itself as an idea was a creative and a powerful idea I think it is the respect of minority and white people throughout the city and it's a shame we don't have more things like that in other

cities. The thing about Boston is it's had tremendous racial problems. But one of the things that may have put us on the right track and it's a paradox it's the paradox of community organizing that sometimes things have to get so god awful bad that you're forced to look at the management that they're there and then having seen that there are able to aim directly at the problem. You know our group for the purpose of our group is not to prevent crime or not to get kids involved the purpose is to promote racial harmony and better use of these other things sort of as back doors of vehicles to achieve that goal. And you really need. A single mindedness of purpose to get anywhere on it and. Unfortunately in a in a society like ours sometimes things just get. Very bad before people admit that there's a problem. And that's what happened. And so the community disorders unit has begun to respond to that or has for some time responded to racial incidents and we form something that we think is rather unique and would like to think that it would be a model for other communities or other cities and that is we have what we

call a crisis response team which is one of our subcommittees we have a. Crisis Response Team made up of seven or eight local residents and they meet on a regular basis and their purpose is to respond to acts. Of racial harassment racial incidents to take care of the community and of it because the police can do so much but there is a role for the community as well. And where we can reach out to the victim and let them know that they're not alone because these things are so terribly isolating I think is in the sack. And in addition now we're at the point there was a time when they would tell us when incidents were taking place. But now we've matured to the point where we can call them and let them know about incidents that we've heard about that maybe they haven't heard about. And so the information is flowing both ways and I think it makes it more. When he said that because we were we we had harassed him from one particular family. They had about seven some. Of them so we went with a whole generation. Of our sons and. We from 1980

75 to 1983 we finally got one of the sons and you know. And I'm going to give a family from 1975 I've been taking the particular family to 1983. We finally along with the other families and we finally the Rossville incidents got them convicted of something. So I mean you know it's it was a long struggle. But I do feel community disorders have a lot to do with it because they worked on the case they found the evidence they brought those pictures of the guys they helped as they helped prosecutors where we had the step we had taken them in the court I mean the phone taps we had the police but the phone taps on my phone continuously. We could buy the Hollywood sign in my number up. The only people they had my number was there was a police baton in my family my close friends as a matter number the number of times you haven't and found the boy that traced it right to his house. They told me they would tell me what I couldn't prove it was him calling me or his mother or his 8 year old grandmother. All I know the calls were coming from his house. And this boy had wreckage of how many times you've been caught breaking my windows fire bombing my car

five on my back what. My kitchen. Had record every time. And they say we couldn't do anything to him. So community this orders came in and they were the ones that. Surveillance of him watched him followed him and finally did something about it because we had Berkeley Street putting black policemen in our homes when we first moved there and they would sit there for two and three days and when they saw that we were breaking windows and that I really thought you're breaking the law they were told at the end that lazy but our house is OK and they saw someone from what they saw in the place to be breaking the windows so that this is a story that was going on so the blacklist after three days finally got up and said to me Look I'm tired I want the enemy felt three days you know and you know I would want to tell you something right now. We were put here because we were told you were doing this that there was nobody from the outside and it was me I was tied up in these. Bricks coming through the window and he couldn't get to me. Oh well I'm going to follow up something that you sort of get I think. Also important and that is having something. To

prosecute. We had something passed in the state I think it was in 1982 the state civil rights. And that gave prosecutors a law that they could to put some of these people behind jail in fact Rossville incidents we had three people convicted and three of them served time and I think that itself is a major element in the decline in racial lines. But that was the first time I think that that act had been used. We have had historically a problem in District Courts accepting the seriousness. Of racial violence as a crime a lot of people I think have the mistaken impression that if someone gets harassed if someone throws a rock through the window big deal you know it's a rock through a window it's not as bad as being burglarized it's not as bad as a robbery with a gun or something. And what people don't understand is it's bad enough if you can't walk the streets because you don't feel safe or you can't live in your own home and feel safe if you can a citizen just described can't like kids point a

room back here without fear that someone's going to come through the back yard and grab them and beat them up. There's nothing worse than that or it's a crime or the other thing people have to realize is the difference between racism and then to listen when I'm dying this is a vandalism just vandalism you know like this don't make you break a window. I think these these racial incidents and that's something very simple. All right let me remind you out there you're listening to from the source I'm your host Robert C. Johnson Jr. and I'm talking to Susan Page who's one of the first black individuals to move into Hyde Park and I'm also talking to Jim Walsh who's a staff person from Hyde Park united and our overall theme this evening is Hyde Park United from racial violence to racial harmony looking at how a community came to grips with racial problems and how they've moved toward a harmonious existence. So if you would like to thank any comments if

if you got community has been besieged with these kinds of problems and you'd like to talk to my guests about how they solve their problems the number to call tonight is 9 2 9 7 9 2 9 9 2 9 7 9 2 9. Will. Start to move about the police we see how once the police gets involved particularly through community disorders unit you begin to see prosecutions and convictions and people go to jail for these kinds of crimes. One question I have is. What kind of role did the church play. What are the turkeys in this particular area. Did any of the pastors or priests come to your help at all. Visitors crossing to Paris and when I moved and I park we tried to have a neighborhood meeting because I wanted to introduce myself to the neighbors guarantee them that the in the place sleepy did not buy my house and I wasn't put there to take them out and I did not have loads of cousins coming to buy the houses next door and everything and we wanted to just drive our lawyers.

Once again though as I told you the group of lawyers tried to meet with the parish and have them have us come in and talk to people about it. Well they said that they did not want to be involved. OK they could not be involved in any kind of way because they didn't believe there was racism not that this is part of it it was the church saying this and they went I was holding meetings. A general feeling that people have that there is no racism and they only. I mean do people ever come to grips with the fact that there are various ways how do you get people to come to grips with the fact that there is racism or the first question is why would someone think that there's no racism. That's a very good question that's a million dollar question and I can only provide I think maybe partial answers to that. Certainly we all know that people like to deny things if they're painful and would prefer to brush things under the rug rather than confront them. So there really confront them when they're forced to confront them. Some of the residents are white and black around the Ross fielding area were forced to

confront them when the incidents took place. When the media started to say that these things were happening they were forced to confront them. Certainly there are people that continue in Hyde Park to deny that there is a problem. To say that there are these problems or problems in the past and that we there were isolated incidents that's something that you hear often. There are a couple of ways I think that one can combat that. The first is simply information I mean the number of incidents that appear in the press compared to the number that happen I'm talking citywide not in Hyde Park in particular is a tiny. Fraction things happen on a regular basis and they vary in severity from being yelled at and having a stone thrown through your window to being beaten up and kicked and that sort of thing. So letting people know what the story is is certainly the first step and the second step I think is a more subtle and perhaps a longer period of sensitization because you've got to bring folks on board. You mention that the police. Have a role to play and they have a very important role to

play. But there's something else that I think needs to happen if we're going to have good race relations in the city or or anywhere you can't just have it so that it's from the top down where it's enforced from above. You have to have it from the grassroots up where people get together at the neighbor to neighbor level that they get together a shopper and consumer in the same commercial area and that only happens when a community or neighborhood based organizations deal with people in the neighborhoods on the streets. And that's what I think is the unique thing about Hyde Park united strategy to get more to what you're asking about. We can get people to realize that there is a problem by getting them involved and we get them involved by saying there is a issue in Hyde Park not enough our youth services why don't we have a teen center or there is a crime problem let's have a crime watch or. There is a problem because someone wants to build a liquor store a block from your home and destroy the residential quality of that neighborhood maybe that maybe that had leading to other problems what can we do to prevent that liquor store from being built so that we bring

people together and get them activated on this one issue. And as they come to meet their neighbors as they come to see that the folks who live next to them are no different than themselves and their friends as they come to meetings and hear the problems the direct personal testimony that Susan and others have made then I think when they have to deal with it in a much more personal level that they become increasingly sensitive to it and then you get to the point where you can get some real work done so that you not only reduce racial tension but benefit the community because everyone benefits when there are teen centers and when there is decreases in when there are decreases in crime when the residential quality of a neighborhood is made. So it sounds like you're saying that an informed way to combat racism or racial division is cooperation among among the races bringing them together to work together on common problems. Well it seems that there may be a problem of fear though initially is that the correct way to win when Susan moves and I guess people feel that well here is this

quote unquote black person and they really don't know her as a person and they just assume certain things because of the color of her skin. Now whose fault is that is that the fault of our schools is that the fault of our churches. If we have to lay the blame somewhere. Where do we lay the blame. And what about the parents who live in those neighborhoods. I mean having raised their children all these years I. Think a certain way where is the problem. Well you know let me jump to the churches and then answer more the question. Just as a side note. The church that Susan referred to and my partner Ross has since that time come on board and become active and when in fact we hold our monthly meetings there now and maybe that is in some small ways a testament to the change that has taken place over the past 11 years but where the stuff comes from well. To some extent.

I don't condone it but I understand how some of the attitudes. Start and are carried through generation after generation I certainly don't understand violence. And. The other acts like it. But when you live all your life in a white community that's all white. And you go to school in a school that's all white and you work in an environment that's all white and so on you all your kids that you played with are all white. It's very very easy to begin to develop. Destructive stereotypes. That lead to these sorts of problems and they're passed on from generation to generation. From. Parent to child. To. Grandchild. I found it to be more just ignorance just plain ignorance of people just being very sheltered never leaving Cleary Square. You know and never going anywhere because. Everywhere I went my whole life I saw white people and I lived in Iraq. OK. So I just found when

I moved into people I ran into living my neighbors I cannot say all of them I will not say every single family life the moment my back reacted this way. The ones who didn't react this way were very frightened and they would slip me a little note or something a little plant would be found on my back steps or a candle or something but they couldn't come forward and say anything in public because they had to live there. There was Jewish families there they had been harassed for years but they had to keep very quiet about the situation and they would see me I'd get a note from them once a month. You know it was Christmas time I'd get something from them. You know I didn't even know which house they lived in. And this went on for years but it is just plain ignorance. I can if I can I'd like to address it. In another way. We talk a lot about the problems of the High Park I had and you know continues to have because no neighborhood or no place changes overnight. But I'm afraid posters might get the idea that a war torn city that you know boy I better not get out and bark when.

When there is another side to it and that I guess is the other half of our program sure things. Have. Changed in hyper we always have more progress that we can make but as I alluded to earlier the number of racial incidents is down. But that's hardly a comforting factor you know to someone who may be thinking about moving not bark. But there are I think real substantive changes there was a time when you never saw minority people in Cleary's square and then there was a time when you only saw them during the day and now there are people who use the square and who use the parks at all times of day and evening and are going to those are there those little subtle things there and they are. Pictures are not my mind as I walk through Hyde Park and very square a black and white kids walking together joking riding bicycles together playing in parks. Of people coming together hundreds of them. In some cases for a common cause of sitting around in meetings. Month after month week after week and submitting meetings working hard taking time out.

Working to improve the community so. While we still have obstacles. That we face. I've seen just a tremendous change even in the two three years about going to Hyde Park and I handle change and changes in attitude and it seems almost to burst out you some people who are reluctant and it might have been that there were a lot of people or some people who wanted to speak up or take a stand and didn't but then when they saw that there was a group and it was OK to be that way it was OK to say that you thought that it was a good thing to have a diverse community that was its strength in the community to have different people than I thought it was OK to join up in. Pursue those goals and values and sort of dollars taken off since then. Jim you've talked about some of the proactive projects that I park Unitas been involved with. One was the example you gave of the liquor store. Perhaps you could say a little bit of about that and how that was useful in

bringing different people together in some ways I think it. Is a pretty good model itself as it's playing whole community organizing but it just worked real well. We had a situation where two blocks from Ross field an entrepreneur wanted to open up a liquor store and you and part of the mechanics of the Ross feelings events were that the kids bought liquor and went to the field and drank and then 2am 3am on their way back 5am in some cases on their way back home after being drunk. And some not so drunk they would harass these families trashing their cars spraying the racial epithets etc. So there are many families who understood immediately that a looker store represented a threat to that community because in a stable it's going to be unstable. And that it represented a threat in other ways regardless of what skin color you had you were concerned the kids would start hanging out of that corner and get alcohol

illegally and you were fearful for your kids and there was a bust up there were senior citizens who get off in your concern that having people loiter and congregate on a corner would just threaten some of those seniors. Bet it was just a bad idea for the neighborhood and so the church became very involved. Naturally you know the church that one of the store two blocks away the church was very involved and we had a very interesting coalition of white senior citizens black families and Caribbean families Hispanic families who have been there 5 10 and 15 years and then new white families because there have been new young couples with young children who have been moving back into that area of High Park since it is an area where you can buy a house and that's. An unusual thing in the city of Austin nowadays and so the price at a reasonable price right. And so all those people came on board to say to discuss strategies about how to prevent this liquor store and you would just be amazed to sit in the meetings I mean these were solid middle class folks all of them side part is a middle class neighbor in

fact the minority people moved in I park from 1970 to 1980 had higher incomes and more education according to the census than the whites that they were replacing. So we're talking about a solid middle upper middle class. Neighborhood these folks would all come to meetings and say well let's take it or let's boycott or let's do this let's do that we never did any of those more extreme things but we pulled together we organized and hundreds of people came out and as a result of their public outcry the license was denied so that gave them a sense of victory and empowerment and they saw that you could work together with different people and accomplish things. And then six months later we decided to have a victory celebration another 100 150 people came out black and white kids lots of kids this time and just celebrated the fact that things were starting to pull together in that community and. That naturally the TV in the press came out over that and that was nice but I think the more substantive gain was the gain of the community learning who their neighbors were and learning that they had things in common. And the folks who bring us when

you finally sit down and talk. All right. On that note why don't we take a break and we urge you to stay tuned. You're listening to WNBA FM Boston. Ninety one point nine FM dial. Going to take a few minutes to break and we'll be right back. This is Alex Haley. My career as a journalist began in my spare time with a lot of desire and no formal training. Minority news professionals were scarce then and getting into the news business was tough. Things have changed some but not enough. They are still far too few members of racial minorities pursuing news careers are being given the chance to do so. If you have talent as a writer cartoonist graphic artist and photographer and you are interested in a career in the news business call this number toll free 1 800 2 5 5 6 0 6 0 0 you will get free information from the Society

of Professional Journalists. Journalism needs minorities and minorities need journalism. That number again 1 800 2 5 6 0 6 0 0 ask for operator 1 2 8. I'm super in the Massachusetts Division of Marine Fisheries with a seafood to put them in mackerel. Summer brings more than warm weather to New England. It brings mackerel to our waters. The appearance of macro benefits for fishermen and seafood shoppers alike during summer and. Mackerel is abundant and easy to catch and inexpensive to buy. It's also a rich source of the fish oils which have been found to actually lower the amount of cholesterol in our blood. That's right. Oily fish are good for your heart. And mackerel contains 10 times the amount of oil that is found in lean fish like cod and flounder. Fresh mackerel is available draft or filleted and is excellent for broiling our charcoal grilling for an easy recipe. Royal mackerel filets topped with thin slices of tomato and onion and a

sprinkle of oregano. The result was delicious and a real healthy way to get the protein you need. So this. Take advantage of the local harvest of Wes and me host Robert C. Johnson Jr. This evening we're talking about High Park United from racial violence to racial harmony. My guest is Susan Page one of the first black individuals to move into the Hyde Park section of Boston. And Jim Walsh who's a staff person for the Hyde Park. United. And we're talking about. Racial conflict in the community and how the residents have overcome the racial conflict. With time. I'd like to. Go back and let me remind you again that you can call in the numbers 19 9 7 9 2 9 9 9 9 7 9 2 9 you don't have to be bashful in questions or comments you have They're all welcome. Going back to. Susan. How far is your right daily routine changed to. 1975. Ten years later how has your attitude changed toward.

Race and racism and more particularly your community how do you feel about your community. Due to a divorce in 1983 I could no longer stay in one family house. And I had to move to a two family house. But surprisingly my children did not want to hype or. Do Some Crazy. Then I packed town. OK. We looked for a two family house in the rust field High Park area which at the time we couldn't find a thing we really can find announcement there. We did find one a few blocks away in the bell no village medically in Hyde Park. Which was already a very strong biracial community it's very mixed. Kids. I couldn't believe the first time I saw a little white kids playing with little black children. I think the whole family went to the top porch and we just looked at a way from the fight. OK this is really serious we were waiting from the fight. I think the first time a little white girl rang the doorbell for my daughter. We were like What does she want. We didn't know how to accept it we had a very hard time.

Every time my dog barked we were at the whole family went and went because we just knew they were going to blow the house up. We were certain we it took us like a year to relax and learn to tell the dog to shut up we have to run in and not fire bombing the house. It's such it's such a difference moving into an already neighborhood they can accept. Both races very comfortable. It's just a big difference believe me. I left my kids outside playing today. There was a time when I had to make sure they were in the house they were locked in that they were locked in the house and then they don't no matter how old they were what I had to be there. You know to get them out the sum of a bomb. I never had this. Piece that I have now. With. Living somewhere like this. It's just a big difference it's it's I in a way I wish I had moved before. I really do I think of it. I'm not saying I think a lot of my marriage problems will based on a lot of tension between us between what we were living under a lot of strain. I'm not the only thing I mean hyperactive did get a divorce from his time. And I know this a couple of us were able to save our marriage and we moved out ahead of time because

it's a big strain. So you know when you move into the other neighborhood it was your Civic Association there yeah we have families down Elm village committee and it's mixed it's combined of white and black residents and they meet monthly. They have annual picnics. Cookouts for the kids. If there's a problem in the neighborhood they will you can meet with them. And they will you know help you work out your problem whatever. The thing I find. Fine with Bell know villages that the parents are more involved with the kids. OK the white and black parents if there's a problem with the kids and you can go to the parent. It's not like. Well it's not my son it's not my daughter it's you know well let's see what we can do can both we work this out. It's a big difference with the white in the black lives it's a very very different neighborhood. Today I took kids women I took three white kids and I took four black and I never thought about it to people in the train looking at me strange and I finally said Oh if I want to know what I'm doing with these white children and they didn't even dawn on me because I'm so used to now seeing a neighbor who wants to go swimming. OK so it's a big it's it's a very big difference when I got in the part of my park I live now.

Now and apparently there was an opportunity for the Belmont Civic Association in the area where Susan lives now to join forces with the High Park united. Some point recently what was that all about well I'm very excited about that as a possibility. Recently there were again one of those issues that everyone is concerned about are public safety issues and there wasn't a public safety concern. Because of something that happened near Bill knelt village and 30 or 40. Or no I guess 20 or 30 village folks came to Hyde Park united meeting and we sat down and we saw each other for the first time we saw that we were both mixed groups and we both had the same concerns and we decided among other things that we felt we would want to go to a Red Sox game together. It's clear that with the Red Sox current record that they need all the encouragement that they can get. And that aside from recreational activities that we're going to begin to do a whole set of things together I think particularly since High Park you know what it spends time on youth programming sending

teenagers to outward bound in Maine or in setting up teen centers or a teen center that there's a lot of room there that we can do things together and. Really expand on. The good things that both groups have done and been successful. Well let's say that even if you had friends from another state and they were professional people and they were thinking about coming to Boston they wanted to move into a residential community. And. They. Asked you about Hyde Park. Whether they should. Buy a house in Hyde Park. And live in Hyde Park would be your response. So my response would be not. Not every place in my pack I would say it's St. Joseph parish would have a new. Field Theory. Yes. I thought you would have any reservations. To know. What would have been to him. I agree I agree there are still parts of our park that might want to think about first but definitely yes I think it's really a great neighborhood. It's really pretty you've got single family homes I mean Boston is supposed to be 50

to 70 percent rental and here's a community that over half the homes are single family owner occupied homes it's a place where you can raise your kids there are parks. It's just really a very nice community and besides the area the Rossville area on the other side of heart park there's a place called Stony Brook which is nestled under the Stony Brook reservation which is a state owned reservation with a pond and a lot of wilderness area and there are about. 200 300 homes over there again a well-balanced community people are basically the same income group. Different types of people from all over the world in fact whites and blacks. And everything else and they have a very strong civic association as well that is a multi-racial Civic Association and I would say more Han Park. There are more parts of Hyde Park that one could move into now than in parts to be concerned about. And. Even the amenities of the neighborhood and the price you wear you can still get a house even though they

increased the prices increase every day and you can still get a house that's reasonable. I think it's one of the few communities in Boston to really move in I mean if you look at any other neighborhood in Boston you can talk about the South and it being quite an integrated community but you've got people on one end of the economic spectrum and on the other end of the economic spectrum they may be living in the same neighborhood but they're not equals I mean there's the rich and there's the very very poor and the Jamaica planning is not going that way but you can't buy a house that they're in they're still pockets that are all segregated so Hyde Park I think is really to be looked upon favorably close to move a place that has a real future. Do you have the fears of gentrification that other communities such as the Southland has that people will come in who are of high income and buy a property in this place middle class or lower middle class individuals. Is that a concern in the neighborhood. Well. I am somewhat concerned about it. Just because of the incredible

increase in the housing market in Hyde Park is the southernmost neighborhood in Boston so it's bordered on one side by Milton and on get him by the others. We're talking about the southern border so it's right inside Route 128. And more. You may have seen earlier in the week that the census data came out for Boston said that Boston is one of few cities in the country that had an increase in population and that the inner suburbs are decreasing in population so more folks are coming into the city. And for some of them are noted yuppies. And I'm afraid that there may be a bidding war on some of those houses and that may force out some of the seniors and some of the middle class folks. It won't Americans Irish-Americans Greek-Americans are part of the mix that make it an interesting place to live. But hopefully we're going to be doing some things in Hyde Park united that might help. Mitigate against that sort of turnover that has taken place.

You have a new housing project that you're working on as a current run we have something that we would hope to get involved and we will be applying for money from the city to. Get involved in a senior. Housing rehab program which means a save of senior citizens. I park as more senior citizens than any other neighbor in the city of Austin. Which is a staggering statistic. And a lot of those homes cannot be adequately maintained because folks are getting older and they can't do all the things they would like to do. And they have a program similar to this and Jamaica Plain and it's been very successful we'd like to started in Hyde Park and I think we will be able to start in Hyde Park and that'll help in a couple of ways. First of all help us maintain the good quality of the housing stock. It will encourage seniors to stay as long as they feel comfortable about staying and not encourage them to all sell at the same time and encourage those sort of panics that lead to block busting and racial steering. So that we will have a more gradual. And. Unmodulated change. And that will provide stability so that we can maintain. Integration with stability diversity with

stability. And also I think it will give us a better look at the housing market give us some more. Impact and influence over to that we can help maintain the good things that we. Were going back to the dynamics that led to the changes in this community. We've talked about community cooperation. We've talked about police involvement. One issue we didn't touch upon and perhaps was and you say some doctors. What kind of support did you get from the political leadership in the community. That it was vandalism. That it was not racism. Everything was vandalism at this time. The only one that was willing to come to Hyde Park and try to organize with some of the community leaders was king. And that time he would come back you would go to places where he would go to the High Park why he would try to hold meetings they would meet with him. He would try to you know meet with the families he tried to meet with the police department. Well he did but I mean it was unsuccessful when they just it was always vandalism. There was never any mention of racism. Just one thing or one about now is there any political leadership in that area of bringing the

racial groups together. Have the elected officials of the city council or the state reps etc. Have they taken a little leadership role at all. Well I'm certainly at the citywide level I think the. Right plan. Is taking a more activist stance on these things and the fact that he appointed commissioner Roche who is head of the community disorders unit to being head of the police I think is a good signal. And the fact that he's willing to be there in person when need be to point out that there are problems and to go to the home of someone who has been harassed but also that he also spends time talking about the positive things we can do to bring people together. And that sets a tone for a city that I think all elected representatives will. Find that they want to. Fall in line with. I also think that you'll find more responsive Myst as the community organizers and as the groups like the bill no village association Hyde Park you know to become bigger and stronger as they have over time and as they will in the future you'll see increasing response.

Now do you have the other actor you mention was the boss in committee right. Perhaps you could explain something about the Boston committee Busson committee is a city wide organization whose purpose is to promote racial harmony across the city. They provide funding for us they provide funding for some more effort in Dorchester they've worked on the Safe Schools Project on sending kids outward bound. That sort of thing and and basically it's a downtown group made up of for example the board of trustees has Cardinal Law and Mayor planner and the owner of the globe and former chairman of the board of the Bank of Boston so it's really sort of the big downtown institutions response to the problem. I think she has a few Masses on there yeah right exact Robert Harding Yeah very active member you know. And so they go around throughout the city trying to get things some of their focus is a neighborhood focus like I'm working. But they also are involved in other things

recently. They just merged with the corporation from Boston. And doctors to form a new bigger and better group called the Partnership. So I'm looking forward to seeing the partnership. Even expand into activities beyond what the Boston community. Well we're slowly running out of time here quickly running out of time quickly running and we have unbelievable how fast it goes. Yeah. Turning to Susan again. Your children are pretty happy with the neighborhood and you're happy with the neighborhood and are there any lasting scars or any lasting regrets or. Is it all that behind you now. No I do something that. I will I think Hyde Park was a learning experience for me. I grew For my part I was. You know. Middle class mother my biggest problem was getting to the Stop Shop in those days when you dropped my kids off went to dancing lessons and I never. If you mention racism to me I didn't know what

racism was about. So High Park has been a learning experience for me that I will never forget in my children honey there and it's made I meet them very different very strong individuals. It's making people that I really like. And as far as they know where they are. And you've seen changes as well and indeed it is when individuals in the community. Oh yes I have. And. I think. I would take my last minute just to say what tremendous courage. Susan and her family and others like them Kurt Johnson and I could name more and more and more down the line of show. And it's really their work and their dedication and courage that has. They. She's used the word pioneer and though we don't know each other I'm just saying now that it's the sort of stuff that you did that made it easier for the people of moved in five and 10 years later so that now I think we have a chance to do something that virtually no other community in Boston and virtually no other community in the United States and I've been around for quite a few places has been able to do and that is

to get people from different races and ethnic groups to live together in a stable. Happy harmonious community I mean when we're not there yet but we've made a big step and I think I can see. It happening. Well I'd like to thank each of you for being with me this evening to talk about a very very important issue and. And more importantly to talk about how the problem was resolved or how it is continuing to be resolved. It's an excellent example of how neighborhoods and individuals and neighborhoods can work together to bring about a positive good. So I'd like to thank you Susan Page for coming out and being with us this evening. And I want to thank you Jim Walsh for being with us as well. I thank you for listening audience for participating and listening this evening. This is Robert C. Johnson Jr. saying good night. The first time I. Got arrested because a woman smacked my 3 year old

daughter that she told me she didn't want to go to play with any little nigger kids and I gave her do it and didn't understand it and they continued to play and she cannot say that I brought. My brother. And my brother just looked at it and she smacked. So my older daughter ran her into I mean there must be some misunderstanding and I don't believe in the. Children. At this time. Our confrontation took place a woman and the next day. I was sort of the butt of a lot. And I had to show up at once. I didn't know anything about lawyers and the lawyer I had was later passed papers on the house I would never take it was a big. Think of it at the courthouse. And then turning them once to kinda. Turning back stern. Name calling and being so visiting yet but I have a lawyer showed

up and it was so funny because the judge that I know people really knew for murder and don't have lawyers you know what's going on he didn't want to believe men but they knew it was pretty serious because I had like it was assault to do bodily harm. At the time I had. I'm an Eldorado and they said that I tried to run one of the children over to go she to go and I didn't even own a girl due to your abuse of the children so I tried to run him over in my charges were pretty serious It wasn't one I had like at most and. There's still five lawyers who would have heard about this and showed up in court. I mean I didn't know any of them and they were you know that's enough to know that I needed help and they took over and they just left and I just took over some of the charges just yeah you know. Everything just disappeared and I couldn't believe it. But this was an end of it it was. It was like this all the time. If we went to the grocery store once I was chased out when we started spitting on me and stock market and.

You couldn't go anywhere. You just couldn't legally ever. I was now a convert now what about the children out of big you know about some point a moment you know it's really funny. My kids are a lot like me we're very strong We're fighters we believe in when we're right no one's going to tell us anything different. My son had a lot of emotional problems. My my children did. My son had much and had to go to Putnam family children's services for psychological problems. But also we had my son could not be taught by white teachers in the first three years of school. He was kept back because he needed to be taught but he did not trust white people he did not want them teaching him anything he was kept back and he did the psychological work up and he said that he definitely needed to be just in his first few years in school. So it was arranged by the Boston school department a second lab equipment that he was only to be taught by. Roger writes from Harvard School of Education was the lawyer that handled it and helped me get this for my son. What about a daughter that

it's really fighting that is a real fighter. She's still in high proud. She's the only black cheerleader but the high pop cheerleading team she's been the only black cheerleader. Everything she's been there and she still lives of this year and she refuses to get up and go. This kid has been spit on. We go to the games in the end you have to watch your back you have to watch everything because I'm still nervous. As long as I've been I'm still nervous. She walks the colleagues feel she she's not willing to give it up. This is something she felt she thought when she came here she couldn't play a vast field that she has practiced yearly but in Rafael and she feel she had it and she's going to keep it. Significant over the years when we shift the focus a little bit over to Jim Walsh and Jim when did you get involved in High Park and why

did you get involved. Perhaps you could explain to our listening audience what the purpose of the park when it got started in the wake of some other violence. Testing testing testing testing testing testing one two three testing. Good evening and welcome to tonight. This is a listener supported public service radio serving Boston. This is listener supported public service radio serving Boston and the South York WNBA Af-Am Boston. Good evening and welcome to from the

source from the source of WMD Af-Ams a weekly public affairs talk show that airs every Monday through Thursday nights from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. each Sunday at this time we broadcast one of the week's more interesting segments tonight segment was originally taped and aired on the 4th of December of this past year and was rebroadcast just this past weekend because failing with Jane gold and Marcia Hamilton and Gary Smith to discuss telephone service in Massachusetts. We hope you enjoyed tonight's program but do keep in mind that because this is a rebroadcast we have to ask you to please hold your phone comes so sit back relax and tune into Joe Pillin and his guests. You've been listening to a segment from the source originally aired on the 4th of December of 1994. It must be noted that because this program is a rebroadcast there may have been changes in the telephone service mentioned in the meantime. Well thank you for listening to from the source. We like to remind you that if you have any questions or comments about this

episode from the source or from the source in general please address them to the source. University of Massachusetts Boston campus Boston Massachusetts 0 2 1 2 5. I'm Bob Carr. Right here on listener supported public service radio serving Boston and FM Boston.