To the best of our knowledge; Malcolm X

It's to the best of our knowledge. After months of bitter feud and weeks of wrangling in the press the year's most eagerly awaited movie is finally here. So is Malcolm X worth all the hype. Is it good history. I'm Jim Fleming this hour why Spike Lee did the right thing at least in the eyes of one Malcolm scholar. Also an angry dissent from black nationalist MP Reba Rocca. Who says Spike Lee's favorite subject is really Spike Lee. And biography of a different sort. Setting Malcolm's life to opera. First. From the ideas network gets to the best of our knowledge. I'm Jim Fleming. He's already a

legend to millions of black Americans. Now Malcolm X may become the next great American hero. He's reemerged larger than life in Spike Lee's epic new film. And it makes you wonder. Is America ready for Malcolm X even now a quarter of a century after his murder. This hour the man and the movie will compare the real and the fictional Malcom's and talk with Spike Lee's harshest critic the writer I mean about Iraq. Also the story behind the opera called Ax. First why Denzel Washington's portrayal of Malcolm already has critics applauding. If there was any such thing as a Republican or Democrat. We were black. Before there was any such thing as a Mason or an elk we were black. Was any such thing as a Jew or a Christian we were black. You. Think. There was any such place in America. We will run as well as from the sea.

There will still be black people. In here these politicians. Are set up. The same. Set up. By the way. This is. Going to do. The same jobs and hold them down you know by. Sending. Coal down here to. Somebody. They send prostitution down here to supply. Can't even get drugs you know without the white man's going to. Get prosecuted all without the white man. You can't get gambling you know whatever you want. You break the seal on that like a bottle. That's up to what makes you your brain. I say and I say it again. You've been here. All morning. If this were just any movie Denzel Washington stunning performance would be all we'd ask for. But Malcolm X is no ordinary film because of its controversial subject. This may be one of the few movies actually to be judged on historical

rather than cinematic terms. The overriding question is did Spike Lee capture the essence of Malcolm X to get one view. Steve Paulson went to one of the country's leading Melcombe scholars Brown University's Michael Dyson. Well Professor Dyson do you think Spike Lee got Malcolm right. Overall yes I think he did I think that Spike captured the spirit and vision of a very complex even in it magic figure. One of the most paradoxical and yet powerful in the history of African-American leaders and the 20th century. I think that he captured his ability to articulate black rage to really bless black rage by releasing it. His body in a sense was a vehicle for the constipation of black America and Spike captures that in a very powerful way and he also captures the enormous importance of

the various evolutions that that Malcolm X underwent during his lifetime from a criminal and a thug if you will in his first part of his life for the first 20 years of his life. The second stage he captured his going to prison and undergoing profound revolution of ideals if you will and spirit by being indoctrinated into the Nation of Islam. He captured his you know leaving prison and becoming the most powerful spokesperson for the Nation of Islam. And then after that the kind of moral. Battle that he eventually held will head with Mahomet. Just talking ideals were more powerful than his own activity and Malcolm saw the threat of that and regretfully and mournfully left the nation. Now it almost seems like there's too much material here for one film I mean if the subject is so immense even now that the film is very long it's more than three hours. That's right. It seems like it's almost too much for one film.

Yeah well I think you know Spike it heroically tries to take ample measure of Malcolm And when we think about other epic blockbuster biographical docu dramas if you will like a Gandhi or even the kind of historical revisionism that was attempted by a very powerful film JFK Oliver Stone's version. It's takes time and I think one of the unusual things about African-American cinema is that it has an often allowed been allowed to take its time to do them. The complex representations of black life that are mandated if we're going to be real to the culture and I think and I applaud spike for taking the time to do that and if you're going to do justice to this film I appreciate the fact that he fought tooth and nail so that it could remain in its three hours and 21 minute clip I think that it's not too long in the sense that this is a very important figure hotly debated hotly contested. So I think that the time he took was necessary in order to represent the enigmatic and you know evolutions of this man who

was who was a very important figure and more important in death of many than he was in life a sense of who this film was intended for me do you think Spike was trying to make a film for for white audiences or for black audiences or for both. Yeah I think in the end for both. In presenting the story of Malcolm X Spike has spoken to a much broader and universal community of people specifically spoken to young black people who have appropriated this ex as an icon but who may not be aware of the substantive nature of his ideals and thoughts. Well there's a lot of criticism of those young people who wear the X caps but they don't really know anything about Malcolm's life. Yeah well that's that's fine but let's not stop there. The point is the reason we're having a discussion about this movie and the reason that is so much going on in the culture is because in one sense is because they are wearing those x caps an X T-shirt. What we could back up and say why did why didn't our parents of this young generation teach us about Malcolm in the

first place why is it that they had there had to be a trickle up of. Picked among black nationalist communities and organizations who for the last twenty seven years since Malcolm's assassination have boldly held forth about his importance to American society. Why is it that this black intellectuals and white intellectuals in the academy and so on have not talked more about Malcolm So that there wouldn't be this claim that we knew nothing about and we can't say the same thing about Martin Luther King Jr.. Why because Martin has received wide and broad cultural coverage even if it is an attempt to absorb his more radical statements into this larger mainstream viewpoint as an American hero and a safe negro. So part of the problem and part of that has to be laid at our feet. Those of us who have not talked intensely and intelligently about the meaning of Malcolm X. So it's good at least it's a conversation starter to you know why you have the next head on. What does Malcolm mean to you that's a powerful way into talking even across races for white people who may venture to wear X heads or x t shirts and this is besides of course the whole notion of the commercialization

of x which is problematic in many senses but also again at least. It's a conversation opener so that we can get into deeper dimensions of Malcolm's thought in life. You mentioned earlier that Malcolm went through many phases in his own life and I guess the phases that are often talked about the most and kind of held up as in conflict are the last to his years as one of the main spokespeople for the Nation of Islam and then the period right after that when he had the falling out with him and he went off to Mecca he came back he talked about this brotherhood among all races. Do you think that you had that people have to choose between which Malcolm they want. Well that's that's a that's a complex question in one sense. If we try to remain true to each of the evolutionary tract that Malcolm was following that is if we follow out to the logical conclusion of what his change of mind represented then we might say well yes we choose the latest stage of Malcolm's evolution which of

course as you were indicating was after Mecca after he made the pilgrimage that opened his eyes and he came back saying even though black white people could not participate. The organization of Afro-American Unity which is the one of two organizations he founded after he split from the Nation of Islam the other was the Muslim mosque which was a religious organization whereas the OAU was a political organization a way youso So in one sense I think that asking to choose may recognize that Malcolm himself made a choice on the other hand I think not. I think part of the appeal of Malcolm X is that he represents so much of what he is about black culture of appealing and attractive to especially younger generations of blacks. He represents the criminal he represents the he represents the person who is highly articulate who had a rage in his mind and on and firey intelligence in his mind and rage on his lips and concern about black people constantly every day of his life talking about it discussing it reflecting upon it well I guess I was also struck by what Spike Lee did in the film because he spent much

more time on the Nation of Islam days and there was a relatively short period in the film for the post Mecca period and my guess would be if you had to ask Spike which period he liked the most it would have been the most militant phase during the Nation of Islam. You know what we do have to we have to push back even though some of the statements. I've seen in public though when he said he was going to deal with the whole evolution I would think that Spike would take him in a in a complex multi dimensional state that if he would look at Mepham and all of his faces now it may be true that given Spike's cantankerous relationship with the powers that be in Hollywood one which would want to cast him in the militant mode and therefore assume that the mouth of that was he was most attracted to was at that stage. That may or may not be true then again as a as a filmmaker in Hollywood. Spike is not only addressing African-American people that he is by taking interpretive authority over black life represented on the stage on the film he's done a tremendous job but he's also been in a white industry primarily speaking to white people and then arguing against them and dealing with

them so in one sense he himself represents the last stage of Malcolm's evolution even if he's trumpeting the notion of a certain form of black nationalism whereas I think Malcolm. Malcolm spent 12 years as a nation of Islam minister and only 50 weeks after after his trip to Mecca. So it was appropriate for him to spend that much time to write on the ancient days and it was not just you know it wasn't just the 12 years that he spent were quite varied. I mean you first of all you had this militarist stick rigidly defined black world this black moral universe where everything was certain where the relationship of the worshippers to their god was quite fixed and mediated through this figure Elijah Muhammad. But as Malcolm began to stretch out his jealousies develop between the leadership cotillion if you will and Malcolm X jealous that he was getting more publicity just that he was the spokes person who was seen as the most visible representative of this pic and this strange and enigmatic sect.

Then the rift in it I think with the Spike Lee was quite successful in portraying the divisions within an African-American society. And what was most powerful I think is that that Spike showed that when we did the notion of Malcolm as a violent man first of all was not there his self defense is not the same. It is violence but what it showed is that these black people didn't use violence against anybody but themselves. Now that's a good and watches just the greatest irony and the greatest tragedy of certain virulent forms of black nationalism that that in the final analysis the violence is black on black. It is not directed toward the so-called object of its of its of its existence which is white people. One of the things that struck me as I was watching this movie was in the images that still stay with me the most powerfully are the speeches in it which is very interesting because I dont usually think of speeches as being exactly film material and you write in those and I don't know if it's a testament to the power of Denzel Washington's acting or if it's just you know Malcolm's riveting speeches but it's just you know I thought they were

just amazing and I'm curious about what you think is I know you've written the liner notes to a CD coming out a collection of Malcolm's speeches. That's right. You know I think that what you say. See represented there is an amazing thing first of all it is as you've already indicated the power of Malcolm's rhetoric the power of his oral articulation of black rage and of black desires to have a good self-concept and to have a tremendously refined sense of self esteem and a desire to minutes and to demand that we be taken seriously as a people. Then you have been Washington's superior. An eloquent portrayal of Malcolm so powerful I think that we often forget that he is indeed in the other we feel that we see Malcolm on the screen. Thirdly what you see a Spike Lee's. I think quite powerful film of cinematic move of letting the intelligence of this black man come to the surface like. No other film that we've ever seen it has black intelligence black or reality

blacker rhetoric that not even the great Martin King Jr. has been able to inspire. You know a film so far nothing has approached the power of this film and I think you're absolutely right. That's what we remember. We remember the words. One final question what do you think would have become of Malcolm if he hadn't been killed if he were still living today in his late 60s or so. Right now that's a that's a that's a very complex question in one sense. People have suggested Malcolm was becoming an integration of internationalists or. Or even a socialist. I think that of course at the end of his life in the Young Socialist interview he says that if you ask me right now it still be hard pressed to give an official name to the philosophy that I believe in to help liberate black people. I think what Malcolm was leaning toward however was. Kind of prophetic orthodox Islamic perspective that would allow him to link his quest for freedom and the in his people's quest for freedom to the

larger quest by the Muslim society for realizing justice in our own communities. So I think that would have been one. Secondly I think he would have been much more progressive in his social thinking. That is he would have seen the need I think as he indicated very early in his openness to socialist philosophy I think would have led him to a powerful criticism of capitalism and therefore embrace a more you know concrete embrace of certain socialist philosophies. Thirdly I think that Malcolm would have been much more open toward trans racial coalitions that is coalitions between black people and other like minded fellow traveling White people who were concerned about the liberation of African-Americans and also the economic destruction that had ravaged urban inner city communities. So I think these three areas are ways in which Malcolm would have developed of course martyrdom has a tremendous effect on one a message. There's no question had Malcolm X lived had Martin the King Jr. lived. They wouldn't have been become quite the heroic figures that they

are now they certainly would have still remained heroic. But martyrdom blesses the memory of a person to make it ever present martyrdom effects in such a powerful way. The words and significance and images of people that they become icons I mean Malcolm and Martin are the yin and yang of black moral outrage against white racism. They are the yin and yang of black representations and responses to the way in which white people have tried to us and refuse to acknowledge our humanity. So I think that in that sense martyrdom certainly gave them more power in death than they had in life. Michael Dyson is a professor of American civilization and Afro-American studies at Brown University. Concerning it is criminal to teach him enough to defend when he is the constant victim of a brutal attack. There are problems in the community. Some of the examples of problems that destroy the

moral fiber in our community drunkenness drug addiction prostitution or going to the Negro community of probably 90 percent of US economic and moral one of the reasons we're going out on a limb here if you join me. Be sure a week for some of this to go to. They do it the way they're going to get this little negro that they thought was passive. It's become a real ring right in red if they do it's going to do is stay inside the house in their bed in the kitchen in the attic in the basement. You know that in time you can do something about it. It's to the best of our knowledge from the Ideas Network did today show catch your ear get you thinking we'd like to know. The staff to the best of our knowledge welcomes all comments questions and suggestions. Simply jot them down on a letter or a postcard and send two to the best of our knowledge. A 21 University Avenue Madison Wisconsin 5 3 7 0 6. That's a

21 University Avenue Madison Wisconsin 5 3 7 0 6. You've heard from us. Now let us hear from you. Spike Lee's long struggle to make this movie is by now the stuff of Hollywood legend. He got the job only after he launched a public campaign against the white director originally slated to make the film. And then when he went way over budget when Warner Brothers refused to pick up the tab Spike went outside the studio to raise money

from Bill Cosby. Magic Johnson and other black celebrities but his toughest battle may have been with his African-American critics led by Mary Barach a playwright poet and black nationalist. Once known as Leroy Jones before Spike even started shooting the movie by rock a dismissed him as a petty bourgeois negro. Precisely the wrong person to make a movie about Malcolm X. Steve Paulson spoke with Baraka shortly before the film was released. Mary Baracoa Why are you so angry at Spike Lee for making this movie about Malcolm X. Well it's not really that I mean angry at Spike per se. It was I said something about Spike's films generally. When it was announced he was going to make the Malcolm movie. Well even prior to that he had asked me to write something about Mo Better Blues and I declined. And then he insisted You know he offered me money which made me want to do it. And so I said well I'm not going to write just on that but I'll write about all your films but I don't think you're going to like it.

And my wife as a matter fact said well he might not like it but he's going to print it. He's going to print it. But I knew better than that because not only didn't he like it but he sent me a kill feel like to do in the magazines. And so some people got wind of the fact that I had criticized all of the films and they had a medical forum. And as a result of reading this analysis of the films a lot of young people wanted to go and make a an open letter to spike and presented to him. To get him to take those you know ideas into consideration so he went down to his place you know the joint Spike's joint down there the next week and hand him an open letter which just pensively was from the committee to preserve the legacy of Malcolm X which was a number of activists in New York. And you know we confronted Spike and I gave him the letter in his hand and explained to him. What was going on. You know saying that basically were saying

don't do to Malcolm what you've done to black people in those first films of yours. You know what are you saying that he did in those earlier. Well the films are are superficial. I mean if you had to find out about white Americans from films like Spike Lee's that dealt with white people with the same kind of superficiality the same kind of cartoonish caricature you give me an example. Well all of the men you know I mean do the right thing. I mean do black women have to get in get out of bed to struggle for you know politically equality. I mean is that the nature of school days I mean in a sense trashes black schools I mean I went to a black school. Howard University my kids go to black schools. They are about more than copulation in rock n roll. You know I mean I mean 85 percent of the black people in this country are graduated from black colleges. You know what I mean. And you're saying he just ripped down the absolute reputation absolutely Poe's it has