Evening Exchange; 42097; Black Germans

Meet our sisters and brothers from Germany next evening exchange. Them give them the same. I watch almost all this because I've seen and kind of get started. Good evening I'm Cojo the Welcome to you and I'm happy don't be confused. The music you hear on the background is not only our evening exchange in which you are often hearing in our background which is hip hop music from Germany a testimony to the presence of the descendants of Africa living in

Germany. And on tonight's edition of the evening Xchange we will bring you our sisters and brothers who have lived virtually all of their lives in Germany and we will explain just what it is they are doing in Washington. But allow me to introduce our first segment of guests. First meet barbel complement. Who was born in Germany. She is a teacher and psychologist. The emphasis of her work is in therapy with black Germans migrants and refugees. She also participates in anti-racist workshops with teachers social workers etc.. Good to have you here. Thank you. She is joined by opinion. Who also born in Germany she now works as an acquiring editor in a publishing house. Good to have you here. Thank you. Also with us Dr. Evil poser who teaches German in the modern languages department here at Howard University. And who can explain to us how our German sisters and brothers got here to Washington in the first place.

I would be glad to teach a course called individual society here at Howard University and have been doing so. And after the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 I happened to run across a copy of the magazine published by the lecture community called after the look and decided to try to find the editors and the group behind the book which is the initiative of black Germans and blacks living in Germany. Let's take a quick look at a copy of what the magazine looks like. If you can see it's not that clear but what you see up here is where it says Afro look what you can go ahead. I then had the opportunity. After successive visits in Germany to meet with various people in the ISI the people responsible for the Afro look and also people at the Orlanda publishing house where he works. And I eventually began talking with them about trying to bring people of both the

Diaspora communities in Germany and in America together and particularly with the focus for us here at Howard to bring our. African-American students into contact with German speaking blacks so that the communities could dialogue and learn about each other and that our students would develop an interest in the black community. When does it all get started in a practical matter and you can tell our viewers what I did at the IAC is the initiative of black Germans and blacks living in Germany in German TV rights the Deutscher is where the initials come from. It actually began I think it was the late 80s early 90s that I first saw the F Look magazine laying on her colleagues desk and the book showing our colors which came out in 1986 was not translated into English until 1992. That date is very important because it opens up the possibility to bring the message of the. And the existence of the black German community to the

wider population of the diaspora around the world who do not speak German. And it was at that point that I integrated chapters of the book into my own class curriculum what's happening with the group that is currently visiting what they're doing. What is your purpose. What is theirs. We are essentially really bringing that to bring the group from Germany here to the United States to have them explain their history and their issues that they are currently confronting to do with racism discrimination lack of access to the various parts of the society in Germany and particularly to share with our German guests the experiences of the African-American community or the strategies that have worked here in America to see where we can transfer expertise the support and continue to foster a collaborative series of projects between the two communities. From the Howard University perspective we are interested in students and faculty exchange but it

really extends much broader to much broader issues in terms of helping with political networking and so on. Now why they are here Howard University is their host but they have been and will be traveling to other cities. They were initially in Chicago for one week under the auspices of the host committee in Chicago. I should explain that in order to pull this off we had to somehow organize ourselves on both sides of the Atlantic and we formed two committees so to speak with a branches in the Berlin committee represents the various cities in Germany which have sent people in the delegation and in the United States we have a Chicago branch headed by Dr John Long and a Washington DC branch headed by Dr. Alfonso frost here at Howard University and myself. Opinio I heard our report to you was is that you are more referred to. I called you. OK. I'd rather be called a penguin.

Actually I am trying to change it because I used to be called achy all my life as a child specially because it was too difficult for people to pronounce my name but I have sort of decided that I would just have to make them pronounce it because that's just my name. In that case can you tell people around here that my name is Cojo. I don't want to refer to a school as a joke. Let's get that straight you work in the publishing house as an acquiring editor could you tell us a little bit about your history and your family background. Yes I was born in 1966. German white German mother and a Nigerian father in East Germany. That's where they met and got married eventually which wasn't very easy to get married for cross-cultural couples because it was known in East Germany that if you married then the German partner could leave the country which wasn't supposed to happen because it was a socialist or communist society at that point. And it was close. People were not

allowed to travel. And if you got married to somebody who was from another country the implication was that you might be traveling so it was not looked upon favorably. Nevertheless you are the product of that union and me and my parents did get married and we left East Germany to go to Nigeria for some time in West Germany and Jamaica. And I think living in West Germany since 1981 now I studied to be a translator for Portuguese and Dutch and finally ended up in Ireland a publishing house where I do acquiring editor which means that I review the manuscripts that come in by women authors. We are a feminist or women's publishing house. And I also look out for any material especially black books from English speaking publishing houses that could be translated into German. And we focus very much on black authors black women authors so it can be said that your function within the publishing house is primarily acquiring the works of black

authors from around the world black women authors and publishers who are not primarily because we as a feminist publishing house it is also that is one of the focusing points the rest is just feminist theory throughout the world. People of all origins and other of your novels lesbian novels that kind of stuff barbel you are a psychologist and teacher could you tell us a little bit about your family background. Yes I was born in 1946 and it's a small city in the east part of West Germany called different. And my father is an American soldier was an American soldier and he had just an affair with my mother and he didn't know that I'm on the board because they had to go away before my mother could me. She said she's pregnant. And so I grew up in a white family

and it was you know after the Nazi regime and so I had a lot of discrimination and racism during my childhood. And but I didn't realize that you didn't realize that time was there a point in your life at which you realize that you were different. Yes. Can you tell us about that voice. It was one day in my school time it was last year before I had the high school grade. And I had the teachers was a German teacher and he read a poem and he did it so funny in our deal that we started to laugh and he was a big sister. And he was so angry about that and he got a big grade and he started to come to me and give me a beat and then he stopped and then he said no I don't want to to make my fingers dirty by giving you a beat.

What was your reaction to that. Nothing. You were in shock. It's the same. When I when I speak about it it's the same as a little bit similar. It's the same feeling as I had my heart going. And I didn't say nothing. And then when the lesson was over I started to cry and I said I cried for one day but I didn't talk about that. My grandmother I was with my grandfather during that time my grandfather asked me tell me what happened to you. Tell me what happened to you. I can help you tell me but I didn't. But it soon became so full of shame. It was something like to be naked. Did you feel somehow that it was your fault. Yes of course. And that's something that you have to deal with psychologically does that have any influence at all on

you. Turning to psychology as a profession. Yes. I think it was one of the reasons. First it became a biological system. And then I started to become a teacher. And after being in school I felt oh I can't do that for my whole life. It is it is not enough for me you know. And then I started to study psychology. And when I finished this studying I had just started training so my psychological business. And the first day when I came to the training the trainer said to me the woman said to me you taught me a lot about you or your history. But but what about racism in life. There must be racism in your life. And then I also started to cry and then I began to act it out and to to talk about and to get my fear and start to get my things clear. To clarify what happened to me.

Unlike Eki you presumably have lived most of your life even your early life. Maybe all of your life in Germany. Where there is not all of your life where there was not the existence of a physical Black or African Afro German community. So where could you turn to for support during those times of trial. Family. No for my family didn't want any support because they didn't understand and they didn't know. They don't want to understand they don't want to see that because they think. They would feel guilty. If they could see what happened to me. So they deny denied to my black existence. And so I never had to feel and I can't speak about that. I got support from a girlfriend and out of one and she was very supportive for me because she was the. She said to the teacher. You don't do that don't do that again. Otherwise something weird happened with you.

And so she she's crying out for me. So that implies that since then you have found your strength of support from within yourself. Yes. And the study of psychology has presumed and from within myself and I had a lot of fantasy. I went with my fantasy. I read a lot of books. And so I identified myself as a part of the books. And so. Eckie you traveled around a great deal as a young woman and without revealing your age in 1981. By my calculation you were just about 15 years old and you've been living in Germany since then so it's a matter of choice in your case. Why did you choose to remain in Germany. Well it's not so much a matter of choice because that was my conclusion Yeah. Yeah because my parents separated when we were in Jamaica and then we came back with my mother. Because that was the best chance we had. For an existence to live in Germany because the social system is better.

And it was easier for my mother to work in Germany because she's in East Germany or West Germany or western western. We couldn't have returned to East Germany. They wouldn't have taken us back. So the only place you could go back was to having left you could only go back to western western and that's where your mother decided to make a living. That was the easiest. Otherwise my parents would have preferred to stay abroad with us away from Germany because they knew that it would. It was a very racist society and was very hard for my father who worked there as a doctor to live with this racism he could take it. A lot of people watching you have lived in this country at a time when racism was much more evident than it is now and so relate to what you're talking about. But you're also talking about in the in the same society that bred Naziism so they must be wondering if the racism there was any more sharp was any different to the kinds of discrimination experiences that people have had here every day.

It that is really a very difficult question because was the greater feeling in your mind of isolation and alienation. Definitely definitely isolation complete isolation. I mean I was glad I had two younger sisters and we had a little community for ourselves. Otherwise it would have been a lot harder to get. Yeah. I mean we lived in a village for example in the black forest and we were the only black people there and people were friendly and everything that the racism comes about through a lot of ignorance and people not being ready to learn. People resist learning. They will be telling them we are black people and we but we are Germans at the same time. This is my skin color. And still I am not a foreigner because of that. There seems to be this widespread perception that you are a not really German and be lucky to be in Germany. Exactly. They were telling you oh how lucky you grew up here and you got this good education here. And when are you going back and you can teach your people something.

What have you observed in the interaction between your African-American students and colleagues here and our German visitors. I think the most important thing for our students has been the chance to speak to people because these lectures speak such marvelous English. The strength of that access to people of color in a country that they do not or never thought about as having a population of color and in which in the same country people of color are still denied their existence their identity. And the students can relate to that and feel a bridge to a part of Europe that they don't normally associate any relationship with. One of my observations is that despite the fact that you had to overcome the isolation the discrimination and the alienation. Every member of this group is by our standards a well educated person. How did

you manage to continue in your educational process in the face of that kind of discrimination and my solution to easy I guess. No it was both. I think for me it was something like an inner power to show all of us white people what I'm able to do. That was the motivation I think. And when I started to to study psychology I had the job of the teacher. I was a teacher in the morning from a to 3 o'clock or so and then I went to the University and met what psychological lessons I could couldn't do that in in this time because I was so motivated and so powerful and used that time to show them to have a really universal grade. What is it. Isn't this what led you into the publishing industry the need to spread ideas.

I would say that for Babel it's a little different because she's of an older generation and it also depends very much on the family's family situation for my family. It was just normal to go to school and to go to university after that and get a kind of academic education and for me it was just the languages I that I brought that from home and it was something that I specialized in quite early and then publishing. Yeah I saw that especially in this publishing house. I could sort of bring in my ideas and I identify very much with my work. Barbeau Is there anything special that you wanted to come here for to say to either the American people or the African-American community here. I can say what I want is that we can set our hopes such exchanges more and there that we come

to a very close relationship and that is that it become for all of us. We are only a small delegation. We are many more in Germany. And so that that is it is very normal for us that black African jerm African-American come to us and with us and of color otherwise we've got to go to the United States. We've got to take a short break. When we come back you will meet more of our visitors from Germany. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Find a shrine by buying

it of course step by step there's really gets to shine a light on the dash and smiling as if I understand exactly what I am listening to what you are listening to is German hip hop music. Because on this edition of the exchange we are introducing you to just a few of our friends our sisters and brothers visiting Washington from Germany. In this segment meet Carl Kimosabe. Carl is a scientist. More specifically a biologist who was born in Berlin. He is currently chairperson of the SD That is the black organization that we have been speaking of earlier and spent two years in St. Louis in medical research at Washington University. Good to have you here. Carl carl is joined by Nicola Laurie L. Samurai. She was born in East Germany grew up there. She studies medieval Islamic history with the main focus on Afro Arab and Afro Asian pre-colonial

Relations. Good to have you here in the color. They are joined by Eleanor didn't wrote Eleanor is a symbol she studies social anthropology. She is involved in adult teaching with German is a foreign language and she is the coordinator of the Center for migrant women women and a co-founder of ISOT. Good to have you here. And our leader I guess is. Theodore Gunja. Michelle Theodore as you can see is one of the more junior members of our group so Theodore We will start with you. You date back to the earlier part of this century shall we say. Yes. In Germany. But I want to correct Firstly one thing. I'm not the leader of this group and see you. Yes my family dates back to the colonial time when my grandfather signed

the treaty with the German consular called Gustav not to go. And where was your grandfather from. He was from the Cameroons. I see. And when he agreed that the party of Cameroon called Libya becomes part of the German Empire as well my family my father's side comes from my mother's side comes from East German former East German this part which went to Poland fall from Posen and they met 90 15 or 40 you might think in Berlin and got married in 1915. You do have some family pictures. I think that you might be able to show us a few years and you open that up for us and while you are opening up those pictures I will ask Eleanor to explain a little bit to us about the music that we heard going into the segment that hip hop music that we said earlier is an

indication of the black presence in Germany right. Like this hip hop group calls itself or took the name of advanced chemistry and they are very political. They are the first ones who took hip hop into German language and they use the German language to express political ideas and saying exactly what the movement of this thing is. Well that black people live in Germany and are there to stay. We many of us have a German passport. So why should it be any issue here that with questions like where you come from when you go back and all this stuff and the music took that in and make it something German so that German society can really I can relate to that and understand it's an integral part of human society and I think back to Theodorus family picture. Let's take a look at it and it is my understanding Theodore that the youngest person in this picture might indeed be you. Yes that's right.

Could you identify for us who are the other people we're looking at. Yes. In this picture you see my mother with my father when they got married. That's the other page. Let's look over the other page then. And it's my sister and friends. When she was when she was fidgety and over on the left side is my younger sister and the other on the right side is my mother in cites him is of course my father in the street here. My brother my sister and Winston and my brother celebrated his 18th birthday last year. My sister is 75 not. Fascinating. Carl tell us a little bit about your background. Yes I was born on 1865 and was a balloon balloon at that time to an African-American father to watch my

mother. But I grew up in Bonn which was the capital of Germany. So I spent all my life in Germany. I grew up there. I've been through the school education system and I don't define myself as fully German as I everybody else there. What is it that led you into the study of science. Just because I mean now it might sound silly but at the age of I think at age 5 or something like that I got a picture of all of the color. Well it's a little bird with a red red right. I think you didn't get into artistry. Yeah that's right. So I got that and I loved the picture wasn't that I was always interested in animals. So I went to become a biologist. So it's been with me all my life I'm just like that. NICOLA What is your background. My mother is a German and my father is an Arab. He's from Iraq and was

one of the very few political refugees who came to East Germany running away from political persecution in Iraq. But I was under the impression that Iraq had a fairly close relationship with East Germany. I guess it was the other way around. Yes they had. But you know how politics it changes from decade to decade. So for my friends are going to be not precisely enemies but you know suspiciously observed or something like that so he was a lucky one within that time that that relations changed. So you were in a situation where you grew up with both of your parents in East Germany. Actually they both. When my father is still in East Germany. But I didn't grow up with him so many times like separated. What is it that prompted your interest in that. But you know study I think that has several reasons. The first thing is you know I grew up in a quite small town very close to the Polish border. And there were just a few black Germans of course we had a lot of workers

from work as students workers from Angola Mozambique and some Arab countries. But like really like Germans with one German parent and one non European parent maybe we've been 10 to 12 people and we had one Afro German woman. She's a bit older than me. I was born in 69 she was born 62 who really collected. You know she was like running around looking for really looking for faces and bringing us together and that was a thing for me. I was quite young I was 13 at the time of 14 and really influenced influenced me in a way that I saw the various connections of people of non-European backgrounds. And you know. What really is important for me to see that it's not we are not only connected to white people we are connected amongst each other you know various continents have a pre-colonial story which is not told and there is a knowledge we should all have an access to and this is why I'm doing that.

So the basis of your career orientation is the fact that you found yourself in a society where you were different and chose to trace your oranges and those of people like you. Yes. We hear a lot of stories like that coming from this. Let's take a look at this book. This is the book that we showed you earlier but we're not showing it to you for a slightly different reason showing our colors. And the reason we're showing it to you this time is because one of the stories in this book is The Story of Eleanor Witan road. And let me turn quickly why you still have the camera and the book to this picture. Eleanor would you tell us who we are looking at if we can get a little closer look at this picture right here. Well this picture is inserted in the parts which I wrote a small contribution to kind of say what lot black experience from my point of view from my perspective is like I wrote 10 years ago. And the book was put together and then published. So that's my try. I was a small child together with my mother. The picture looks real nice and laughing but that's

not what life was about. Well you haven't changed much in the few years since that picture was first taken. Let's take a look at this other picture which I'm holding and you can tell us well this is my daughter today and I'm very glad that's kind of I can include her in this in my being here in the States because she is very much part of me and glad to have her. I'm 15 years old and he's from black German background with just mine and from Somali German background which would be her father and you are what is your background. My background is I was born to a German mother and my father was black American African-American. Indeed one of the stories I read in this book being yours says that you finally found your father when you were on a trip to the United States. Tell us a little about that. When I was about 30 years old or so I had enough courage to face up the situation that. I do not only dream about looking for my father and maybe link up with that last part of the

family but then I really went out to do it. So I knew something like he was in New York some 20 years ago or so and I had an address with me and I dislike the idea. And I went to New York I took the telephone directory. I've been through seven numbers and somebody put me through the connection and all of a sudden I heard my father on the other side of the phone and you found that you had siblings here half brothers and half sisters who at first seemed to resent your showing up quite suddenly. Well I understand that probably my showing up after 30 years after my being born must have been a shock for the whole family. But we got along with that situation pretty well and I'm still in touch with them and they needed to learn a whole lot about me and my existence. And we are still on our way. Theodore you lived in Germany during the course of the Second World War and we have all of course heard about the terrible things that happened during that season. How was that

being black there at that time. It was more or less told we were felling just like the news that the laws of no back our civil rights were very very very much restricted. I had to leave school there for and received a normal education. We were not obliged to go to any higher school the educational system. And finally finally I wound up being belonging to the first laboris had to work 12 hours a day day in day out. So were you compensated for that. Yes in a way I was able to study later when I got there even

after deliberation time in the 50s were you were never confined or incarcerated. No I was not in a concentration camp because concentration camps were a deadly to blacks in those days. But well the labor camp they had was always under control too. Besides that we didn't were war a star because my face was an identification no ready. I wouldn't say that coming out of the war on life so violently that it was a good chance for me to live up to speak up also for these matters be things which has happened.

You eventually became a government worker and actor and artist and you told me a little bit before the show about why you needed to become an actor. Why was that. There was no other possibility to learn. As I said we had no education no education whatsoever and the only possibility to money in those days was to work with. Acting was playing a role in some of these propaganda films. The German film industry produced like cougar capitis and so on. So it was I would say it was born out of necessity. Yes. And the sort of come to but later on after my retirement and pension I went back to the states of course and I.

Played big oils too. And you're still playing on the stage. I do. And we're looking forward to seeing you in some production at some point. Carl we talk about what happened during the era of Naziism and this also applies to you Nicole. But now we know that there is neo nazi ism also existing in Germany. How does that affect your lives if at all. That's pretty terrible because the idea of. Like I said I mean my disburses differs from some different from somebody in Germany but I wasn't alone when the wall came down because I lived there and so I went like everybody else on the night of November 1989 I went to the little brown book. So therefore the first time alive was great. But I saw these people singing and all the youth the youth there was all Pusey sick and I recall one glance I had on some white guy a blond blue eyed and I saw this guy and he was 18 19 and he could have been in the Hitler youth like then the young his organization was

probably completely innocent. But then two went down my spine because oh my god. This was and it was on the rise again and this was quite still possible. The subsequent things showed. Is there also a significant anti Arab bias in neo-Nazi ism. Well that's not anti African or anti-Arab or anti Vietnamese or anti you know it's anti non-white generally. So the Aryan myth is underway anyway but you know I think neo-Nazism for me is not only a problem of skinheads you know. So at least when you are at industry you can identify them very quickly and you can at least you have a possibility to think what you can do you know the other thing is what what I'm really concerned about in Germany is the point. And that includes East Germany and West Germany as well. It's just the fact that you know skinheads get a lot of support by the non skinheads. You know we always say they

wear a wig over their bald head. So and it's the very normal person you know it's just it's a neighbor from next door who could really applaud. You know when the when the hostels were burning when the houses of the refugees and everything when they were burned there were a lot of normal very normal average people who were just standing there and gave they applaud. And this is what really is. You know we should be concerned about. Tell us a little bit since you are both You've been involved in the movement for some 10 years. You call her a co-chair of the IAC could you tell us a little bit about how the IOC came into existence. Well actually it started off as book you just sold sewing all colors a group of some courageous woman came together. And so to speak were I I think you know because she was there she would be a better person to say that all along you get to answer the question. You actually think you would be like

it was in 85. I don't know. There must have been a sense like I think we had come off the first generation after this Nazi ism had come of age and kind of recover some strength. And in Berlin there had been a group of black women of color mentioned who had met Audrey laud as a teacher right here who was no right. And with all the Lord's help I think an engagement in the beginning these women got together and made sure and made understood for themselves. They need to speak out and they got the capabilities to speak out at the same time. I was somewhere completely different since I'm in a different area and friends of mine. And a white woman had just finished a film on black German people and somehow we jumped on her back like how come she got all the information and addresses and she wouldn't share it with us. So from these two points of view we put it together. And then that's how the movement got started.

Indeed you are hoping I presume that this movement and any others like it will make a better future in Germany for your daughter and your experience definitely. Yes we are all looking for it. And we think that young people are very much in our thoughts and our strife and we want them to take care. And this is one of the reasons why this group is here to share with us the kind of information we've run out of time in this segment. When we come back you'll meet for more of our sisters and brothers from Germany. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Abide by it step by

step there's really gets a shine on my dash. I think my point was about that's not the group you're listening to is advanced chemistry and I forgot to show you a copy of their CD of course it's hip hop coming out of Germany underlining the fact that our guests today are all black people who were born in and live in Germany in this segment. Meet Haleema messa nini. Haleema is of Somali German background she was born in Socialist Germany in 1962. And since then she has had what she describes as two passions. Africa and the law when you hear her talk you will realize that Halimah is just kind of passionate about everything or so it would appear good to have you here. Halima Halimah is joined by Steven Lawson. Steven is a self-taught sculptor living in Germany near Cologne. He has worked in Paris

restoring the facade of the Louvre. After nine years experience creating images and visions in St.. Stephen has only recently begun to expose his work to the public and has begun to receive strong recognition as an artist. You will see some of Stephen's work here today on the show joining them both. JANINE COHEN Tara lives in Hamburg works as an editorial assistant for a German newspaper Giannina is a member of the IDF are. Alcohol is a different organization of black women in Germany and she is the co-editor of the previously mentioned Afro Look magazine by black people in Germany. She is all time. She's also a part time student of social sciences at the Open University in England how she does it all. I don't know now Michael. Claude my show. Michael was born in Berlin. His father was an American G.I. whom he still has not met. He entered the Berlin police force in 1983 after three years of professional police studies. Michael obtained a degree specializing in criminal investigation and he has worked in different branches of billons

Criminal Investigation Department. Michael the cameras I knew so we will start with you what led you to become a law enforcement officer. Or the idea was quite similar. When I finished school I didn't know what I wanted to do or want to go to medicine or studying engineering so that police would be very interesting some of which I had to I get paid doing the studies so I wouldn't have to live on the money of my mother. Well it's very interesting to hear you say that you got paid while you were studying because so many of us look for the kinds of scholarships that can pay us while we're in school. And if you say that people may overlook the environment in which you happen to be studying which in which you are probably usually the only black person to quote. There was only one black. Or were these men before before me ever in Berlin or in Britain. So what is your experience now as a special investigator. When you show up at the presumably homes or offices

or social hangouts of people in your capacity do they believe you are who you say you are. Oh I'm astonished Berman said of course and in most cases there are really no problems at all. I just remembered some years ago someone didn't believe it and called the police but I think we're seeing it. Call the police to check on you. But outside of that you haven't had any bad experience. Know what led you to join the SD. But just as the other person mentioned be a good or a very isolated situation. So a lot of us not all have just the right mother right families right neighborhoods and so on and so on and so it is really hard to find a solution to exchange about like in experiences and history and things like this. So it was kind of natural for you to join the I asked the Janene allow me to ask you before we get into what you do for a living what tends to be my favorite trivia question for black women who grew up in a predominantly white

environment. How did you take care of your hair. When I was a child I was actually taking care of them. And it used to be a problem at school as well. Children teasing you and it took me quite a long time to become proud of my hair. And it is still a problem because we don't find any appropriate hair care for black black women and men in Germany now because we're not really considered as being a part of German society and I'm always when I look at these women's magazines I'm always quite. Angry because I just see white images of beauty which are completely not my image. And indeed I raise that question because we here know how much money black women spend on hair care. But there are black beauticians who can

assist with that hair care. And you don't have that luxury. Tell us a little bit about Afro look. The magazine we mentioned earlier we just see a copy of a page here. Unfortunately I don't have a copy with me because pathing all have been so happy about it. It was awful. It was founded in 1987 in Berlin and it was. Thought to be in use for the black community in Brooklyn but we quickly find out that we had to address other issues pop culture issues as well such as political issues and also give coverage and give examples of racist press coverage and the German white mass media give room for poetry and stories and generally talk about issues that are of concern to black people not only in Germany but abroad and we also want to put a lot of history our own history into the magazine because most people don't know about history.

What is your own background. My own background is my mother is a white German and my father comes from Guinea in West Africa. And I was brought up in Berlin and I lived abroad for seven years. I lived in Belgium and England and for four years I've been living now in Hamburg. Why did you decide to ultimately reside in Hamburg. That was for personal reasons. It's not ultimately I'm not sure how long I will stay that's just just a part of my life right now and I might move on somewhere else. But for the moment it is the place where I want to be. Steven Lawson was actually not born in Germany but by the time he was two years old had moved there. His parents are from Jamaica and St. Lucia as I recall. And you have lived in Germany ever since and somehow you started out studying architecture and switch. Tell us a little bit about that. Well during my school term I started to discover the arts. I started to

paint and draw and I knew that I I'd like to be creative in my profession. So at the same time it was interest. I studied maths and physics was quite good at these subjects. So my father was in the electronic field and wanted me to do something serious so somehow architecture was a compromise and I was interested but after a while I realised that I would. Yeah I just got more more interested in the history of sculpture of monuments and I got more and more knowledge about St.. And so I just wanted to learn how to work with Stone actually with shoes and stone several questions. Let me get back to your parents because they brought back to England. Stephen stayed in Germany when I was about 20 1920 and my white friends and I had just started my studies and you were German.

Are you are German basically right. Maybe you had that time. Yes I didn't really define myself as a German but I there was this feeling of just being at home in Germany. And when my parents moved back because of their profession and just because they wanted to live in maybe in a black environment I dont know exactly if this was a motive as well and they probably did not consider themselves right. But having been rather was I just had this feeling I don't if I move to go back into a strange environment. So I just had the feeling I'd like I'd like to stay in Germany. And you started out in stone masonry before you actually got involved in sculpture. Correct right. But I had the idea and I had the vision of becoming an artist doing sculpture. But I avoided the art schools in a way because I never had the feeling that that I would find what I was looking for. I wouldn't have like the inspiration or any feed back to what I was looking for. So I just had the feeling I'd search for myself. Just

give me the tools and the stone and I'll just keep myself busy you know. So that's this has been my my way of working and learning. And so a little bit of what your work is in just a second. But we now have to get to the. Always willing to talk. Halima. Who. Will tell us a little bit about her background as you mentioned before my father was from Somalia. She was born in 1962 in East Germany. I grew up there. And things were in a way in a way not easy. And I was confronted with the search things I did not like and found them and justice or injustice when you compare notes comparing notes with those members of bias or this group who grew up in West Germany. Was there any significant difference in the way you were treated.

Well I would say when it comes to racism Germany is Germany whether it's East Germany or whether it's West Germany. So Farai I don't see any big difference. But there were of course differences. By. For example in the late 80s when the ANC form itself. That happened in West Germany and it was in no way possible in East German Why not because there was and there was a political organization for the youth existing and that was it was not supposed to be a second one. We had one official organization sanctioned by the party which was indeed the government and there could be no other no. So what did you do. I. Thought about leaving is what you did. I thought about leaving when I was 11 and when I was 11 years old I knew I was going to Africa. Even at that time I didn't have an idea that it was not yet possible. You know I already had a passion for

Africa at that point yes very early on. So I and I it was always Oh you live in Africa one day. Even though I wasn't aware of the political situation that you actually consider yourself German at that point I was never a live country as a German So how can I consider myself as a German. So you figure that you would live in Somalia because you were Somali. No not accepted that way. I decided to live in Somalia because I didn't want to stay in Germany any longer. And because I didn't want to face day everyday anymore I wanted to place my daughter and a non-racial society. And I wanted to see black people around me not white faces every day and every hour of the day. So you were able to realize that ambition by going to Somalia in the mid 80s I can end up dead is the end of the age. How long did you spend. I stayed in Somalia three years.

I have heard you describe that time as the best time of your life. It was the greatest experience in my life and it was the best time of my life because I am I was able to finally find myself in Somalia from inside. Unfortunately Somalia deteriorated into civil war which prompted you and a great many other people to leave Somalia. Is it still your dream to go back. Definitely. Where did you develop your passion for the law. Also early on I mean. There were so many things I could not do. I wasn't allowed to go and I thought if I know the law maybe that would be a chance and especially also because I was denied certain rights like in East Germany. Black people at that time. I don't want to say we're not allowed. But it was very very hard for them to enter university. I tried several upsets and couldn't get into university. And then I thought well I should know the law maybe that would be a chance.

And on top of all that I had two court cases in Germany and that was the final decision. And I said if I'm ever going to get a chance to study I would study law. That's just a part of Halimah story. Halima has been acting as the spokesperson for the group here. So she and I have had a great deal of discussion so far. And then you get to know Halimi or realize that she has a great deal to say. Let's now turn to something to look at. Here is one of Steven Lawsons works and while we're looking at it Stephen you can tell us what we're looking at. Well this sculpture was I think inspired by my my Or maybe it was initiated. It started when I heard of a death was in August and I just after the memorial. Tell our viewers who My name is. My name is one of our sisters who initiated who started the movement who was one of the five or many black women who started to tell their stories in the process of being inspired by the Lord contributing part the main part

of her was a diploma and about black German history into this book showing our colors. She was a poet and she died last year. And this sculpture you showed before is called In Defense of Our story story. That's what I call it. What is the one we're looking at now. Well this is shows a sister who was holding a mask. I showed you a brochure with this mosque. Is a drawing board sure that this mosque was presents. It shows two faces which form one face. And I call this mosque the mosque of the intermingling minds into active minds. And it just symbolizes how different thoughts different individuals can interact to build a fusion and express something new something in culture and this scope to show sister dancing with this mosque and expressing something new through that again. It has something to do with being able to take the cultural

achievements we have in black culture. Take them quote them and include them into your own being an art and just become part of the circle of history and expression through culture. We just had the time to show those two pictures. But as we go out and I hope we can go out to some more of the German hip hop music that you were listening to to underline the significance of your presence here. But on behalf of this community here not only at Howard University but in the entire Washington area. We would like to thank you for gracing us with your presence and to encourage you to keep on doing the good work that you clearly have been doing so that this exchange newly found can be an exchange that leads to a better understanding across the ocean for both of us. And that leads to some kind of mutual work that we couldn't do together. Thank you all for coming in. We'd like to thank you all for watching. We hope you as we have been both educated and entertained by

our sisters and brothers from Jane. Stay well. I guess. My question. Why not spend that much on. Our mind and find. Out. Oh my goodness. We're on the floor.