Evening Exchange; Investigating the Ark of the Covenant

It has eluded numerous treasure hunting expeditions and generations of puzzled historians and scores of biblical scholars. But Graham Hancock says he's found one of the most precious and powerful artifacts in the world. The Ark of the Covenant. His proof. Up next an even exchange. Do. You know. Good evening welcome to evening exchange. Tonight we will take you on an adventure but one that is of profound significance for all of the major religions in the world. It's about the quest for the Lost Ark of the Covenant and the man who says he has found it. But first we must answer the basic question what exactly is the Ark of the Covenant. The best way to tell you is to show you a scene from a movie that was dedicated to the search. See even Steven Spielberg's Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Dr John tonight you must understand that this was all strictly confidential. I understand. Yesterday afternoon our European sanctions intercepted a German communique that sent from Cairo to Berlin. That's received over the last two years. The Nazis have had teams of archaeologists running around the world looking for all kinds of religious artifacts. It was a not on the subject crazy is obsessed with the cult. And right now apparently there's some kind of German archaeological dig going on in the desert outside of Cairo and we've got some information here but we can't make anything out of it. Maybe you can. Tennis development proceeding choir headpiece staff of Ra. Abner Raven with us Nazis have discovered tennis. What does that mean to you. A. Well city of Tanis is one of the possible resting place of the last or

the last of the arc of the company chest the Hebrews used to carry around the Ten Commandments. Anybody make a managed about the Ten Commandments the actual Ten Commandments the original stone tablets that Moses brought down out of Montero and smashed if you believe in that sort of thing. If you guys ever go to Sunday school. Well I don't look Hebrews took the broken pieces and put them in the ark when they settled in Canaan they put the ark in a place called the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem where it stayed for many years until all of a sudden were gone where nobody knows where. When I was in the ships in the Faroe fishing Yes they did the city of Jerusalem round about 9 AC DC and they may have taken they are back to the city of Atlantis and hidden it. Secret chamber full of well of secrets. However about a year after the event I would return to Egypt the city of tennis was consumed by the desert in a sandstorm it lasted a whole year

wiped clean by the earth. Many of you will remember the movie and understand how important it was to keep the power of the ark out of the hands of the Nazis. That search was fictional. Now meet a man who has conducted the search for real. He is Graham Hancock he is the British journalist whose eight year odyssey in pursuit of the Lost Ark has resulted in the new book The sign and the seal. Also joining us is Dr. Eve frame of the Princeton University Institute of Semitic languages and Dr. Cain Felder well-known at the School of Divinity at Howard University Welcome to you all gentlemen. Graham Hancock congratulations on a well documented search but what it was that led you in the first place to be. I used to be the East Africa correspondent for The Economist and Ethiopia was on my beat. I traveled there regularly and I traveled extensively in Ethiopia during 1983 and it was in 1983 that I first

heard of Ethiopia's claim to possess the ark of the Covenant and discovered that this claim is in fact central to Ethiopian culture. At that time I looked into the background of it a little bit because obviously it was interesting to me but was convinced by mainly non Ethiopian academics that there was nothing to the claim that it was simply folklore fanciful myth. And I really took it no further and it wasn't until 1909 that I got back in to this subject in great depth and that was as a result of a study that I made at the time of the black Jews of Ethiopia who are normally known as the Falasha as although they refer to themselves as better Israel fractions is a derogatory term I flush is a term which is not liked by the people themselves. They refer to themselves as beta Israel Hausa Lasher means outsiders foreigners immigrant migrants. OK. It's not a favorite Tim but by the people themselves and I was making a

study of their culture for another book that I was writing. And during that I became convinced that the antiquity of their religious practice was extremely great that this was a very old form of Judaism that they were practicing and I began to wonder whether it meant that there might really be something to the Ark of the Covenant claim after all. Let me ask both of our scholars here Dr. Felder and Dr. Isaac there is apparently no specific reference in the Bible to the Ark being lost. What therefore leads people to believe that it was. Well of course there there there. There are two important the texts and the Psalms of the. It was frequent in ancient Israel for the ark to be the lead feature of the processions and we have for example in Psalm 24 also which is it was a very important passage as well as 132 of the of the Psalms at which have been associated with that procession now the dating

of those Psalms is and is a major major problem. Another important text would be Jeremiah 3 where in the third chapter no Jeremiah is more precise we can date Jeremiah toward the latter part of the seventh century beginning of the sixth century. And it is there in the text of Jeremiah that we say we see an explicit statement that it is never again will it be made it will not be missed anymore. Presuming that at that time it is gone it would not disprove would cannot assume it was just destroyed in the end say no because that's what something happened to it so it is no longer gone and there is a desire in Israel for that to be for that to be replaced. So I discussed this with my colleague Jean Rice an Old Testament just to verify my own facts I say you do have. That passage in Jeremiah that does indicate that no longer do we have the ark in existence and Dr. Isaac you have studied for years on the 13th century manuscripts in which the the legend of the Ark I think were first written down. You can tell our viewers what those manuscripts were

called I keep forgetting his name. Well first of all let me say I specialize both in the history of insured to do its literature as well as classical to do it because I think what Professor Felder said is quite right. There is an implication already in biblical literature that even before the destruction of the fattest temple in 587 that some of what I thought of the core the covenant that had disappeared and the important reference in Jeremiah said is one and they result in the Apocrypha Book of Maccabees a second McCabe's in which it was intimated that the prophet Jeremiah had hidden it on monthly book of Mt. Sinai. And inlaid had a been a tradition also. They was an implication that for some reason according to one tradition Josiah had the Emperor Josiah had had and at the end of the Sam Wood and Jerusalem in effect the question of. The existence of the Ark

of the covenant in the Fed is tempered after perhaps a period of just a matter put to Kristen. But I hasten to add as a scholar nothing is ever said than when you are in these kind of crazy history. Graham Hancock Could you please pick up the story and talk about the legend of how it got to XM in the. Yes I'd like to add that we've already made a very important point which is the reference in Jeremiah there's another reference which is in the second book of Chronicles and it quotes the words of King Josiah asking the Levitical priesthood traditional bearers of the Ark to put it back in the temple. This reference the speech that it quotes is again dated to the 600 20s B.C. And it's inconceivable that this king could have been asking the Levites to put the Ark back in the temple if it was still there. OK. It's a strong implication that it's missing. As to the as to the legend it's the central legend in Ethiopian culture it claims in brief that the Queen of Sheba was an Ethiopian queen named McCain. When she made her famous biblical visit to Jerusalem she did not only exchange presents with King

Solomon but also that there was a romance between them that she became pregnant that she returned to Ethiopia and there bore him a son named mentally cous regarded as the founder of the sala monic dynasty of Ethiopia which Haile Selassie claim to be the two hundred twenty fifth direct line descendant crime often challenged by others but claim often challenged by others on their e solid ground. Yes this is the problem with the legend it has many historical improbabilities as a young man the legend tells us men like returned to Jerusalem to the court of his father. He spent approximately a year there he was welcomed and recognized by his father given great favor by Solomon the King Solomon. This made the Elders of Israel jealous. They went to King Solomon and asked him to send the boy away send him back to Ethiopia they said he's not one of us with typical Solomon and wisdom Solomon. Said to them that he would do this but they must also send their firstborn sons with him if he was to go. They agreed

one of the firstborn sons was the firstborn son of the high priest. And it's this young man with his comrades who contrives to a duck to the Ark of the Covenant from the holy of holies of the temple substituting the replica men of the camp self is not aware of the theft and it's not until the young men are out of Israel with the ark of the Covenant in their possession that Mendel is informed of this he then realizes that this is the the will of God that the that the ark should be taken and that it's taken to Ethiopia which then becomes the second zone and it rests in Ethiopia. Ever since this is the legend in brief Dr Isaac you were raised in Ethiopia is this a legend that you grew up hearing. Well it's more than a legend that I grew up hearing that I have read the book of any kind I have referred to it in many of my own writings. The continuity of the manuscripts and literature and what was that a home cook is saying in essence is a summary of what the GOP believe. For centuries if Europeans have believed that this is a very public story and

they can see the existence of the arc of the Covenant particularly in the Mary of Zion of an ox who has been believed to be very central to Ethiopian belief. Now we're talking about what it is believe. We're not talking about the veracity of where they are is there but it is as Mr. Hancock says they believe is very central to European tradition that European royal customs the European people's customs the church north European church can be really regarded as a holy place for worship unless they said a plague of the ark. I myself have been to Oxford many times and this place is very good. Id respected and guarded and it's like the New Jerusalem for them in Ethiopia. In essence with them is that it is saying it's a basic summary of what it is but I was going to say that it should be noted that Professor Isaac is

himself an Ethiopian Jew and has traveled back and forth and in fact right now he was supposed to be in Ethiopia I'm just delighted he's come down to sort of always part of this this discussion but I what I find is fascinating here is that on the one hand we have the field the traditional Ethiopian belief in the fairly literal understanding of this legend. And then on the other extreme or the other extreme on the other hand we have a European or Western scholarship which has been very very skeptical about any such a legend having any historical veracity. And I should think that they would be fairly critical. I have this for a while Graham Hancock and Hancock became skeptical about the legend himself but you also pointed out that one of the things that fascinated you was that of the 20000 Christian churches in Ethiopia the ark of the covenant was central to the holy of holies of all their ceremonious. This was it was like a loadstone for me it was something that I kept returning to that in this this ancient and dignified culture of Ethiopia.

There was this incredible power of belief in the existence of the presence of the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia so much so that despite the fact that it is not a Christian object it's a pre-Christian object it nevertheless is essential it must be present a replica of it must be present in every Christian church. Otherwise the church is considered to be consecrated and I felt that this could not be based entirely on a myth. There had to be there had to be some basis for it so part of the challenge for me was to see if I could recover a real historical process that lay behind the legend to find out if the legend could be a metaphor for the truth. And why did you think that the legend itself could not be taken literally. There are historical improbabilities in the legend in fact the keppra the gost the original document does not state that the ark was brought to the city of XM. It says it was brought I believe to Deborah McCoy to to mount McKay to the place of the Queen of Sheba. Many Ethiopians believe that it was brought that the cabinet says it was brought

directly to XM. And I originally accepted that until I came to study the Kevin the ghost myself. This is a big problem because the city of X is well-studied archaeologically and we know that it wasn't founded until at least the 2nd century B.C.. This is eight hundred years after the time of Solomon and therefore it's not possible to bring the object to a place that didn't exist and I was misled by this I think many scholars have been misled by this but also amongst the scholars there's been a kind of foreign scholars non Ethiopian scholars a kind of arrogance or refusal to believe that Ethiopia could really have had any kind of ancient high culture capable of accommodating an object of this sort and the general feeling that the Ethiopians were kind of just spinning fantasies and there's a lot of insulting comments about about Ethiopian psychology when it comes to the question of the of the Keppen aghast but I'm satisfied that the claim to be the ark of the covenant is true and that the real historical process underlies it. OK we want to show you on the screen exactly what part of Ethiopia Xom is

where Graham Hancock said it is located. But we want to allow him to continue his narrative of after deciding that the legend could not be taken literally. You kind of lost some interest in it but then later on it was in France. Yes it was much later there were two reasons one as I mentioned earlier was was my study of the customs and the beliefs of the better Israel and finding that these were people who practiced a true Old Testament form of Judaism. Which seemed to have been cut off from the people we now call flush eyelashes which seem to have been cut off from the evolving body of the Jewish faith at a very early date. To have been cut off and isolated thus preserving practices that were extremely ancient in form which latter day Judaism had abandoned people who had not traditionally known the Talmud who did not have rabbis but who had priests who practiced sacrifice and who had did with absolute strictness to the Old Testament codes in the Book of Leviticus regarding food and other matters. And people also who did

not recognize some of the later festivals in Judaism. They seem to be a very ancient people the other thing that intrigued me and interested me was the tracee I came across traces of what seemed to be a European quest for the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia dating to the time of the Crusades to the twelfth century and I believe that there was contact between Europeans and Ethiopians in Jerusalem at that time and that this quest stemmed from that. It's a long story to go into but the upshot was that I decided to investigate further to see whether there was reality underlying this wonderful legend. That took you to France. It took something took me beyond France the France the French side of the stories it was important to me and I believe that there was a European a strong European interest in Ethiopia's claim to possess the dating from the 12th century and associated with the Knights Templar. But I believe that I've established that the Knights Templar did visit Ethiopia in the 12th century but this wasn't the decisive factor for me. The decisive

factor for me was and uncovering a real historical process by which the ark could have and I believe did reach Ethiopia. OK before we get to that historical process do with our scholars questions I mean just say because I have to leave the service soon and I want to just first of all thank Mr. Graham Hancock for this fascinating piece of work and I think that. It makes for exciting reading reminds me in some respects of the kind of approach to history a bit more subjective a bit speculative at points but nonetheless very compelling that we see in the works words of I have invent set in terms of they came before Columbus as in that genres it is as I read it. But what I wanted just a detail a couple of points that I thought were particularly significant about it. First of all I think that what with a work such as the sign and the seal that we have now as authored by Graham Hancock we have another indication of the need to be very skeptical skeptical they practiced a

hermeneutical suspicion on a lot of the received traditions and conclusions of much of Western scholarship. I think there are a number of books are appearing now that are causing us to become very cautious about receiving the way the his story. H I S his story has been told to the exclusion of others the second thing I want to point out. Is that it is very refreshing to see any books that a fairly serious works focusing pas on the positive contributions of ancient Ethiopia we must remember that all of Africa at one point by the Greeks and Romans was called Ethiopia greater Ethiopia and there has developed in recent history last 400 years or so. Professor Isaac Mr. Hancock knows a negative attitude towards Africa and nothing good can come out of Africa. And so I think any work that attempts to say that the Africans in the context of Africa in a political way time is now in in Ethiopia proper yields or may well contain such a priceless religious object as the ark of the

Covenant has to be celebrated and I wanted to express my appreciation. Dr. Isaac. When Professor felted with whom I have collaborated and we've both been you have authored articles and books together. Yes but they tell you about the Queen of Sheba story and I also have dealt with the question of the relationship between Ethiopia and ancient Yemen from where my own father had come and when we say speculative we are fading essentially to where that they actually exist. The Ark of the covenant is an X room may be speculative and whether the object that is now found the next room is true because they come in and that may be speculative but from the Ethiopian prespective particularly from the perspective of the GOP and believers there is no question that this is something that is real. And in this respect I would.

Perhaps not necessarily compare this kind of speculation with that of the works of science that the Maya. This is a tradition it's a tradition that has been accepted by if your been for many many generations for many centuries. There are even external references. I can go back to said the Arabic references to the Ethiopian believe in medieval times that they have the ark of the Covenant and certain foreign Christian writers I think the one that comes to my mind now is a man called Abu Sally who is writing in the 13th century who describes again this is your belief and so in this respect what the Ethiopian believe is not going to be a speculation but whether what the Europeans believe is real or not is another matter. Well the difference between speculation and reality is evidence and when we come back Graham Hancock will talk about the evidence that indicated to him that there could be a historic reason for the Ark being in Ethiopia. Stay with us we'll be right back. Welcome back we're talking with the author of the new book The sign and the seal the quest for the Lost

Ark of the covenant he is Graham Hancock. He is a an investigative journalist with the British publication The Economist. He is joined by Dr. E. frame Isaac who is the director of the Institute for Semitic Studies at Princeton University we are talking about Graham Hancock's investigation into the disappearance of the ark and his argument that it is now in the province of Tikrit in Ethiopia in an area known as X and we were about to talk about why it was you concluded and of course Dr. Cain Felder who was here earlier had to leave but we were talking with Graham Hancock about why it was you concluded what you concluded about how the arc got to Ethiopia. Yes. I was most of all impressed by the depth of this tradition in Ethiopia and its widespread diffusion and the fervor with which it was accepted and its central importance in the culture of Ethiopia. At the same time I was aware of a number of improbabilities in the in the basic legend that claimed it.

That explained how it had been brought to Ethiopia so I started with the premise that when an entire culture believes in the presence of an object like this they cannot be entirely wrong. There must be as scholars have argued that they cannot be entirely wrong there must be something right about it. And I therefore wanted to find out if the ark is indeed in Ethiopia how did it really get there in this part of this process I traveled very widely around Ethiopia. And I talked to people wherever I could holy men monks priests Ethiopian Jews. I also know the story about the Ark being buried on one of the base of one of the two mountains in Israel so there are either two there are a couple of Judaic traditions which relate to the concealment of the Ark both of these associated loss with the destruction of the Temple of Solomon by the Babylonians and it was concealed to cheat the Babylonians but I had satisfied myself already that the ark was gone from the Temple of Solomon some fifty years before. In fact more than 50 years before the destruction of the temple by the

Babylonians so they had to be another reason and we'll come to that. Sure but for me the most important moment in Ethiopia itself came as traveling around the country talking to Ethiopians listening to what they had to say and finding on Lake Tana in the highlands of Ethiopia an island called Tonic costs. And on that island a monastery very old and decrepit where I talked with the monks and they told me a fascinating variant of the mainstream tradition of the Queen of Sheba and mentally and the bringing of our of the Ark to Ethiopia. They told me that when the ark was first brought to Ethiopia it wasn't taken to XM where it now rests. It was brought to their island and they said it had remained on their island for around eight hundred years they said we would use them. We practiced sacrifice before the ark. They showed me stones Qatada it at the top which had been used to contain the blood of the sacrifice before the ark. Then they said Our country was converted to Christianity. The king of Ethiopia was converted to Christianity and the Christians came and

they took the ark from us and they carried it off to XM and they placed it in the great church that they had built there. There was something authentic about this tradition something that rang differently in my ear from other traditions that I had heard and also it was associated with dates because we can date the construction of the first great church in Axum to around three hundred seventy eight. And if we subtract 800 years from that we find the monks on Tanika of course are telling us that the ark was brought to their island in the late fifth century B.C.. I then backtracked to Israel and started to look in detail at the mystery of the loss of the Ark which is a great mystery. And by a variety of processes partly by relying on the biblical evidence many scholars have missed two references that we spoke to earlier in the book of Jeremiah which is a lament for the loss of the ark. And in the Book of Chronicles The Second Book of Chronicles where they quote the work the words of King its interest. You can follow all of these references by but with the help of a computer.

I did use a computerized edition of the Bible which enabled me to run search and find programs and this is a it's a quick way of getting into a very dense and ancient document. It did help partly with that process I was able to satisfy myself that the ark was still in the holy of holies at 701 B.C. and gone by six hundred twenty six. What happened in those 80 years. I discovered that the pagan monic took the throne of Jerusalem in 687 be seeking man Nasser he apostatized from the Jewish faith he became a Pagan and he committed a sin which is reviled in the Bible he installed an idol in the holy of holies of the temple. And I'm satisfied that it was at that time around six hundred fifty B.C. that the ark of the covenant was taken out of the Holy of Holies to protect it from ritual pollution by proximity this to this idol. And what I've established is that it went. Next they took it right out of Israel altogether and they took it halfway to Ethiopia. They took it to a place where the Jewish community already existed in Upper Egypt on the island of elephantine near the modern town of S1. And there I believe they built a temple to house the ark. It's been known by

archaeologists since the early part of this century that a Jewish temple had been built on the island of elephantine. This temple has been studied by archaeologists it still is being studied. None of them have been able to establish why it was built. This is the great mystery why was this temple built. I believe it was built as an house of rest for the Ark of the covenant of the Lord the same function ascribed to Solomon's Temple. Now the next thing that happened and this was where the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle fell into place for me was that in the late fifth century B.C. at exactly the time that the monks on Tanika Cross were telling me that they are come to their island in the late fifth century B.C. that temple on the island of elephantine was destroyed. There was a conflict between the Jews and the Egyptians on the island and there is no evidence that the Jewish community that Ireland were massacred they just vanished mysteriously from history nobody knows where they went they just seem to pack their bags and left. And what I've established what I believe is that they did do that. They took the ark of the covenant with them not north through a hostile Egypt nor back to Israel which had already forgotten them.

Because I think the Jewish faith in a way needed to lose the ark in order to evolve into the religion that it became. They carried the ark south following the Nile River to the source of the Blue Nile which is Lake Tana. And there they placed it on the island of Tanna Cocos. There it remained for eight hundred years as the monks said and afterwards it was carried off to XM and incorporated into the Christian faith. And here we have the answer to two mysteries. The answer to the origin of the black Jews of Ethiopia the Falasha is if we if we wish to call them that. I believe that they are connected to this migration southward from elephantine carrying the ark. And also the answer to the great mystery of why Christians in Ethiopia venerate an Old Testament relic because at the very beginning of Christianity in Ethiopia this relic was acquired by the Christians and worked into their religion so that Christianity in Ethiopia is a kind of syncretism a mixture of veneer of Christianity on top of a very ancient Judaic basis and this I think is the historical

process by which they are came to Ethiopia. To me as a lay person Doctor I said this is a fascinating story to you as a scholar does it have plausibility. Well let me say a couple of things about the dynamic of course story. Of course there are several parallel legends about the story of Solomon and Sheba in fact. Professor you know Litman the beginning of this century also collected other legends from within the province of Tikrit and even more more ancient Ethiopian tradition about the story of Queen of Sheba and green salad King Solomon and the coming of Jews to Ethiopia is that of the land of Bela and the Argo people. There is a collection of those stories and those legends and there is some similarity in those beliefs. You saw said that the axon became very central. And action was of course to historians was known after the second century of the post-Christian period I think maybe you might have said pre-Christian. But second century pre-Christian

period post-Christian period I think what these fits into really more than anything is the general European belief that there was an interaction with the Jewish people going back to pre-Christian times. There was a tradition in Ethiopia that before Christianity have of the people. Again this is the tradition and I have great respect for this tradition but I'll add one more point that these fits also into the general character of the European civilization as the director of the innocence of some of the studies which by the way is an Independent Institute although we have good relations with Princeton University. We do research. We have an advantage Research Center. We deal with linguistics and there are many interesting facets about Ethiopian culture more scientific than let's say about it than about what we knew about certain believes. In other words that Ethiopian religious terminologies logical language contains some very pertinent and very important Jewish Theological technologies. And

when you put that together I think this is European believe and the interaction the connection with the Jewish people is very important. One other point however I'd like to make here is about the reference to elephantine. I happen to be a very open minded scholar OK and I'm always willing to speculate myself but I have my own misgivings and doubts about the connection between the elephantine and your BIA until I find very important documentation. I find more of this connection going back to south to South idea. However that's neither here nor there. There's no question that in effect that European culture is one to hate even post place ten times Judaism and they believe and objects and practices of Judaism have been sent Well to me that suggests plausibility and there may be some obvious differences here on the basis

of some specifics but what is more important is that having located the ark in X Graham Hancock says the verse I have to see. Will you then make the pilgrimage to see it. And what happens. Yes I conducted my research during the height of the of the terrible civil war in Yemen. It was a very difficult period in order to and I had worked largely on the government side of the lines. In order to go to XM it was necessary for me to travel with the rebels as they then were although they now form from the government of Ethiopia. I wanted to. It was a difficult and a dangerous journey and I wanted to satisfy myself absolutely that all the evidence added up that the jigsaw puzzle had been pieced together and that the circumstantial evidence was extremely compelling and strong that the arc really could be in Axum before I went there and I had done that by about

November of 1990 and I made my journey to XM in January of 1991 I chose that particular month for a particular reason because there's an important Ethiopian Christian festival takes place in January every year it's called cut means epiphany. And yet like many Christian festivals in Ethiopia you find this strange underlay of Old Testament Judaism because although the Tim cut festival supposedly celebrates the baptism of Christ. The symbolism of the festival is heavily almost exclusively focused upon the ark of the Covenant. So I felt that this would be an ideal time to be present in Axum the city in which I believe the ark of the Covenant lies. To be there and to see the kind of events that took place and to investigate and hopefully get close to and perhaps even see the ark of the covenant now you found where the ark was kept and you found the monk is charged with keeping these are allowed to say I didn't find where the ark was kept anymore than

Columbus found America. Oh all Ethiopians know where the ark is that's just what I had done with satisfy myself that they were right that they were correct. And I went to that to that place I finally it was a long and arduous overland journey there was that the government was bombing anything that moved on the roads during the day so we had to travel by night and I must say I learnt something about the suffering of the Ethiopian people at the hands of the biggest regime during this during this journey that I made it was a kind of personal epiphany for me in Bath. But finally getting to XM talking with the monks in XM and being allowed after some suspicion and some questioning to talk to the guardian of the Ark for there is only one man in Ethiopia who is allowed to see the ark of the Covenant who is allowed to go into the sanctuary chapel but any may approach the chapel. It's possible to come to the compound within which it is situated and that far I did get. And when you got to the compound you looked at the gate and you said if I made a quick

jump and a quick run I could be there in ten seconds but you were warned not to do this. Yes this would have been would have been unwise it would also have been rather gross and brutish behavior on my part. And I I do have respect for the traditions of the Ethiopians and to be honest I hadn't ever believed that I would be allowed into that century. I was completing a personal quest I think I would have felt a deep sense of personal failure if I hadn't overcome my own fears and gone to XM at that time. But I didn't believe that I would leap into the sanctuary and I certainly would you know I was just a passing thought. Obviously I think it would you say you saw the monk you did ask him if you could see it he said obviously you can't see it but you also talk about the special circumstances under which he goes into the presence of. He goes into the presence of the code with Old Testament traditions he's not supposed to rest his eyes directly upon it. This is dangerous. Everything about the Ark of the covenant was dangerous Testament times and before it he burns large cloud of incense so that his eyes may not rest directly

upon it. And what you are about to see again taken from the Spielberg movie Raiders of the Lost Ark is what according to the legend happens when you are upon the ark. Think.

The. Plan. The reef the very feared power of the ark it was thought to have the capacity to destroy cities

to cause cancerous tumors to come upon people. What in your own view is the basis of the research. Was the source of the power of the ark and was that an accurate depiction of what it was revered to do. Yes it is an accurate depiction. Within reason I don't find that very exaggerating exaggerated interpretation of what the Bible and other ancient sources tell us about the Ark of the Covenant this was a most strange and curious object by any by any standards. The striking down of the enemies of Israel with bolts of fire is something that it frequently does knocking things down and inflicting sickness and illness upon people. There's nothing else in the Bible like this. There is no other object and we should stress here that the Bible is quite clear on this matter the ark of the covenant is a man made object. It isn't made by God. It's made according to a divine blueprint. And what is placed inside it according to the Bible are the two tablets of stone upon which the Ten Commandments have been

inscribed by the finger of God. Raiders of the Lost Ark was was incorrect to say that the broken pieces of the tablets were placed inside it because most in fact goes up the mountain attains a second set of tablets of stone and it's these that the Bible says are placed inside the ark. Somehow after that it seems to become irradiated by divine energy. It ceases to be just a container with with stone or stones inside it and it becomes. A terrifying object and or inspiring object which the Israelites make use of in their in their battles against their enemies and which Moses also makes you saw from time to time in subduing the children of Israel when they when they rebel against him. Obviously in my in my research I was intrigued by this and I did. I did look into it and there are a couple of chapters in the book which are entirely speculative and I want to stress that on what the ark really might be.

I personally find it difficult to believe that we are looking at at an object which expresses the power of Gods. I find that difficult to believe not because I'm a nonbeliever myself but because it seems to me illogical. The Ark of the covenant was quite indiscriminate in who it struck down. Because a well a well recorded tradition in the Bible where a completely innocent man is struck dead for touching the ark of the covenant when the ark is being brought up to the city of Jerusalem by David it's being brought on a cot which it shouldn't have been it was supposed to be carried on carrying poles. The COT shook a little bit. The ark was unsteady and who walked beside it stretched out his hand to steady the ark and was struck down by the wrath of God on the spot. This doesn't seem to me to be the action of any god certainly a God that I will hold that point for a second because when we come back Graham Hancock will tell you exactly what is his

own speculation about the source of the power of the ark and we will take your phone calls I know you've been waiting and anxious to talk to him so stay right where you are. Welcome back with author Graham Hancock on DR. The frame. I was like we will come to your telephone calls in

one moment but finished briefly telling us your own view of the source of the power of the arc. For for me the mystery of of what the arc really is lies in ancient Egypt not in Israel a tool. I. Associated with an Egyptian background there are many similar objects in ancient Egyptian culture like shrines were pulled out of the Tomb of the common who the scholars tell us dated to a period about 100 years before the time of Moses many shrines carried on carrying poles approximately the same size as the Ark with the effigy of a God inside it often made of stone and I think it's squarely in the Egyptian culture the ancient Egyptian culture that we find the prototype for the Ark of the Covenant and I have speculated and I want to stress it's only speculation but I think it's healthy to use our minds on this kind of issue that Mozes the objet the background of Moses in the household of the Pharaoh the grooming of Moses as a potential Pharaoh his would have implied that he was trained in all the secrets of

Egyptian priestly lore and priestly magic and Egyptian priestly magic was the science of its day there. There are many examples of Egyptian magicians claiming to form to form the kind of feats that Moses did including Parting the Waters of lakes. An example dating to 2000 years before the time of Moses so he belongs in that tradition. And it's in the secret knowledge of the priestly elite of ancient Egypt that I think we find the knowledge and the skill to create a terrifying magic box. Of course if you are a believer you believe that the ark was still with biblical forces but does that Dr. Isaac really make a difference. Well some people believe they're very important. Apropos of that let me say referring back to his time Mr. Hancock said I myself have been to Oxford several times I have been in the church compound and indeed I would have liked to see what is your scholars but I would not even ask such a question because it is an appropriate didn't do I ask

such a question. Neither kings nor the bishops are even allowed into into the temple. There are only people who have claimed they have seen what what is in there what is in the sanctuary there. Actually it's not inside the sanctuary now but in a little part of the compass compound. Some sixteenth century conquers the time of Gran Mohammed claimed they've seen a piece of white stone with gold writing on it but of it European priests and church. Strange that no that is not our course yes hidden and that nobody has ever seen it. And even Emperor Haile Selassie in his own days would not have been allowed into it. Hence yes it certainly has an aura of. Power and trembling I'm not quite sure. There are scholars who believe in this idea about the Egyptians there are scholars also believe that this is related to the Semitic traditions

such as America which was carried on camelback certain books of this nature. But that is not the important thing. And here I would really like to conclude my view on this subject that I think I have great respect for for the beliefs of people whether that belief is real or not we cannot know. I'm not myself as a scholar I'm not in a position to say what we have in the church. Now the. The the actual point of the covenant which was in the temple in Jerusalem. I do however respect it your me believe and that to bring this belief to the public is itself a very important matter. And therefore I would congratulate. If even though I would not go as far as Mr. Hancock to say that we now have found the Arctic but bringing these pointed to the public is itself a very important allow me to include the public in our discussion thank you for waiting your on there please make your question or comment brief.

I was going. Commandment to remember in the book and a glimpse into the world. Forty two dollars. That occurred even before. OK. I'd like to do that because a lot of these about the Ten Commandments being part of that would have to do. Thank you. We got it. Yes. The ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead which certainly dates back to the dawn of Egyptian culture. It's really impossible to say how far back it goes but we can go back as far as 3000 B.C. does include a series of negative confessions that the soul makes on it's journey and these negative confessions certainly are virtually identical to the Ten Commandments which come which come much later I myself think that the Ten Commandments and the notion that they are contained two tablets of stone with ten commandments written upon them is a late gloss in the

Bible I don't think that's ever what they are contained I think that the OC contained a sacred stone possibly a fragment of the meteorite and this is well attested in other ancient Semitic religions. Back to the telephone caller it's your turn you're on the air go ahead please. Yes I am so happy to hear this. It has been confirmed by someone which has always been the belief and acceptance of the rest. The foreign bridge in that are critical and it is in Ethiopia but not on the ark of the Covenant. But the royal house of David. Problem on that the first 20 didn't benefit defendant I think Solomon and his son to this great heritage so not only is our kind of covenant but God's chosen royal whole is represented in Ethiopia or was attended by had left the earth and it is still whole Thank you very much we already got into the challenges to Haile Selassie claim to being the two hundred and twenty fifth descendant of Solomon so I'm not going to get into that but I will take another telephone call but thank you for

calling upon their call or go ahead please. Yes I guess I was kind of piggybacking on what the previous caller said and my question was going to be any of the research on this cat Mr. Hancock's did any of his research of the into his into you might just be highly Selassie and what were the opinions that Mr. Hancock and. But the rest of us. Yeah OK. I think the claim to Solomon IC ancestry of the line of higher Selassie is interesting I haven't formulated a strong opinion on this. One of the great mysteries of the Bible is the loss of the Ark another of the great mysteries of the of the Bible is the disappearance of the Davidic and son of monic dynasty. Maybe that answer lies in Ethiopia in some complex and circuitous way. I really don't know I can't say for sure. Well again I repeat what I said before. You didn't exist in Ethiopia that Ethiopian Kings descended from King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. And as I keep repeating and I want to

emphasize this because as a scholar I do not want to make any claim that I have any proves you know what any of these things. Much of what we are saying tonight is very very well known to scholars already including for instance even the references in Jeremiah the Second Chronicles to scholars already in the even late nineteenth century knew some idea about the disappearance of possible disappearance of the Ark of the Covenant from the temple even before harvest the last being monster only the traditional Selassie whether its Emperor Haile Selassie or someone else there has been an Ethiopian believe that your paintings have descended from the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon. I wish to state this as an important European custom as a tradition which isn't European I respect. But however. I do believe there is to every lit in there is a grain of truth. However as a scholar I'm not in a position to say that this is so or not but I respect the tradition it did exist.

Graham Hancock if indeed you are correct what is the significance of the day of the Ark being in fact some of the major religions of the world. I hope that for me I want to say personally the significance of all of this is is is a recognition of the colossal importance of Ethiopia in the world and of Ethiopian culture the immense age the dignity and the depth of Ethiopian culture this is what I have realized as I've as I've produced this book and I hope that the rest of the world also will realize this not just to see Ethiopia as a country bedeviled by famine and by war a country full of pitiful images but a country in which we find a dignified and ancient culture that has a true claim to prominence on the world stage. How important is it for Christians that in the chapter of Revelations it says when the park is found again it means that we are coming towards the end of the world the ark of the covenant is immensely important both to Jews and to Christians and also to Muslims the concept of the One God that all the three

great monotheistic faiths observe goes back to the Ark of the covenant for it was in the ark of the covenant that the presence of God was believed to be embodied. Our religions have all evolved from this early concept and as a result the ark of the covenant it's its recovery it's the doll age that it is still exists on earth must be of immense importance to all who take their religion their religion seriously. We'll be right back you stay right where you are. We will be. Right back. Very quickly Dr. Isaac as we distinguish speculation from reality I'd agree

with Mr. Hancock about the importance of Ethiopian culture and I think it's a culture that is very significant in world history. And I appreciate what he just said about this that that's our show for tonight our thanks to all of our guests tomorrow we will take a look at the lives our teenagers live. We will talk with a local high school students from Montgomery and Prince George's County and the district about guns in their schools who will also give parents a chance to explore educational alternatives to public schools. And we will tell you about a local clinic fashioned to suit the needs of teenagers That's tomorrow at 7:00 here on evening Xchange. Remember channel 32 is in our membership drive which is one of the reasons we wanted to bring you this very special program tonight. We felt it would encourage you to become a part of our family because of the unique nature of programming that you find here so please join us. Become a member of channel 32 from all of us to all of you. Goodnight.