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The. Navy spy plane crew comes home President Bush details his budget and Cincinnati is in a state of emergency all of these issues and more next on the evening exchange weekly news analysis. Hi I'm Cojo normally the members of the Navy pipelined come home. President Bush offers a detailed budget and a plan to set a moratorium on the death penalty in Maryland. Phil's here with me tonight to discuss these and other issues. Mark Plotkin political commentator for WMU radio. Todd LENNEBERG of policy review and
Askia Muhammad of the Washington and former and final call. 11 days after a controlled landing on a Chinese island the 24 members of the crew of that spy plane returned to American soil. They finished their debriefing on Friday night returned to their home base in time for Easter. So far the de-briefing seem to reveal a very different account of the events that preceded the Navy jet encounter with the Chinese fighter jet Askia Muhammad. I guess it depends on whose voice you choose to believe this is true. Now the fact that the crew is back safely on American soil. The United States version is becoming more and more at odds with the version that was being accepted at the time of the events. When you call it a controlled landing. From the reports that have been released it seems to have been almost an out of control landing and probably much heroism on the part of the pilot as well as the remainder of the crew. The pilot for saving the aircraft from crashing and causing all of them to lose their lives
and the crew for maintaining their discipline and continuing to ditch and sabotage all of the delicate sophisticated eavesdropping equipment that was onboard electronically and pitching things overboard. So they they got high marks for really what is not always the case in the situation where you just captured. They really did perform acts of heroism well who gets high marks for negotiating the release. Well I guess it depends on who you're listening to and purposely purposefully. The letter from the U.S. ambassador to China to the deputy foreign minister the foreign minister of China was written in English so that the Americans could claim that the meaning of very sorry very sorry or it twice using that expression was different from what the Chinese
interpreted to me which was this is a full apology and a kowtow in essence. And so what what George Bush wins because diplomacy prevailed but then you know in the long term the Chinese are probably not more intense than they ever were before of establishing the Monroe Monroe Doctrine East that is stay out of our turf. What I find very interesting is that the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was kept under wraps that he was not very visible nor vocal while the Major is said diplomatic maneuvering was done by Secretary of State Powell. What I also found interesting is aftermath about supposedly the president who isn't that well versed or thought to be well-versed in foreign affairs were supposed to be very much involved engaged. But then when you
read the article he had only talked to Secretary Powell twice during the entire situation if that's engaged. I don't know what it is and then today Rumsfeld came out and said that this wasn't accidental or inadvertent that this is there's been a series of this aggressive acts and this was actually an assault on the airplane. So once the 24 service people were back they they have a far different story. But I have to hand it to President Bush he didn't end up like Jimmy Carter. They didn't stay there for a year they came back in 10 or 11 days. All's well that ends well and the future of the spy plane. I think it's not actually a matter of great concern at the moment. I think that's really what if the reports are true about the success that they had in completing their destruction protocol. Then basically what you've got is a substantial number of number of lumps of electronic junk that aren't really worth a great deal of fight. And what will be interesting though will be the meeting schedule between the
United States and China on the 18th starting and because Rumsfeld made it clear and as has been did has Bush that it's not just going to be the Chinese who are asking questions about the United States activity. We also have some questions for them among those questions is Why are they pursuing this reckless pattern of dogging our planes. And I think that's you know I think that's a good question to ask. The story that originally circulated that somehow this lumbering for prop plane actually took down you know a relatively sophisticated jet fighter that was absurd. And what's now coming clear especially as the as the crew begins to tell its account of what happened is that is that this hotdogging maneuver got out of hand and the Chinese plane seems to have clipped one of the props of the American plane and then broken into pieces. And and that is a product simply of the reckless behavior on the part of the of the aircraft knowingly
floating and that's the picture that seems to be emerging here is a picture of a very dangerous game of chicken being played by two aircraft. And obviously the reason it was being played if in fact that was what was going on is because of the proximity of the U.S. aircraft to the Chinese shore and the Chinese and everybody knows that every country claims a different area of of their own territory and the Chinese claim that this area off the South China Sea is really a part of their territory. But you have got to ask yourself the question of how would the U.S. have responded with a Chinese ship off the coast of Florida or California the Chinese the United States claims as does China a 200 mile limit in its offshore. China is a signatory to the treaty that the. That establishes officially a 12 mile limit. But the United States is not. So it depends on whose version you're going and what surprises me is that this was a military event
a military engagement you did have fighter plane it was not an escort. It was a fighter plane. Hotdogging the American military aircraft. And then in the face of this military encounter everyone's apologizing because these fighters and soldiers and combatants did what fighters and combatants often do that is cause the loss of life. What has also seemed to have disappeared is the story that was first heard at the time of the incident that the other Chinese fighter plane that was also accompanying the intercepting this flight shot at the American plane. Whatever happened to that account seems to have fallen by the board if it did happen. Perhaps it will be brought up at the meeting in San Francisco on the 18th. The other aspect of this is the use almost unanimous support for the skillful and adroit handling of this issue by President Bush. I'm trying to tell you that Bush on the ballot for everything he may go on and tell you that you know
it's going to come here is that. WILLIAM KRISTOL Dick Cheney the vice president who are sometimes referred to as the prime minister went after him on the Sunday talk shows that Crystal be during before and after not before because he's not clairvoyant but during and after he has said look this isn't such a great deal. And so in terms of the right wing or the hawkish elements there is a minority opinion that said which isn't also pleased with Bush. But I think in general the American public is very pleased because they got back the servicemen and they got the servicemen back without any further loss of life on anybody's part. And it does seem to appear that President Bush is enjoying the benefits of kind of carving charting a middle path here between the so-called As Mark characterize them the hawkish conservatives in the party and those who would have chosen to seek a more diplomatic solution.
Again I would not disagree with that but I would disagree with the characterization of the anti-China crowd in Washington today as being exclusively conservative. It is not. In fact there are a number of Democratic candidates who are very very hard line on China in relation to this. And in fact this is also a position that that one can associate with some of the labor unions in town including the AFL CIO a lot of that's related to permanent normal trade relations and so forth. So we ought to be careful when we're describing this particular Do we also have to be careful because things are changing. We also have to be careful in our April 18th and future negotiation with China. Well I think I yeah I think we're going to have to be careful. Look China does not like us and our role in Asia does not appreciate the fact that we are essentially get the guarantee of security in Asia and that is not something that we or our allies in Asia are prepared to give up. So obviously we are on something of a
collision course and there is time there is something called Taiwan and they want to purchase advanced military equipment which we want to sell to them. Collision course Chinese don't want us to do. Really doesn't go away underlines the point that Todd was making and that is the Chinese do not really like the role that the U.S. is playing in its continental sphere of influence. So when you say collision course I mean I think that probably so stating it mildly perhaps not in this decade but at some point China is is the latent power certainly of Asia and perhaps the latent superpower the United States is the status quo power the status quo meaning that the United States is the uni polar powers the reigning superpower and China wants at least if not equal billing top billing and so at some point there will be a clash. And this certainly would have been the time over this relatively minor incident for the United States to draw the line in the sand and because in the
future over Taiwan and really contentious issues will the United States be willing to take military action. That's something that is really pleasing at this point is a trade trade issues take a backseat here because there are also very important trade. Well I hope trade issues take a backseat here because you know I think the time has come to talk about what this government is and I think we can to find that these guys are bad news if they persecute their people. They routinely imprison dissidents they torture them they kill them if you practice the meditation. I don't follow Ngong. You can be imprisoned or tortured or killed. That's no political content to that whatsoever. You say that's an internal matter. Well indeed they do. And I say I you know I didn't have a little leg wasn't shy about talking about internal matters in the Soviet Union when it was when and when they were persecuting their people and I don't think we should be shy about talking about the about the Chinese in this fashion. They are they are not
worthy members of the international community based on how they treat their people. And if I hear one more Chinese there's a threat coming. I don't know I get out of there Don Rumsfeld is or where you are or whatever getting up and talking in the name of the Chinese people the Chinese people need the Chinese people require. There's never been an election in China that amounts to anything that would determine what the will of the Chinese people is the Chinese people are ruled by an autocratic and indeed communist government. They seem to be pretty nationalistic over this issue. And in China in fact the president is receiving who also played this pretty calmly he didn't interrupt his South American tour and he sort of did a George Bush delegating and keeping in touch via the internet or phone or whatever secure means they have. But they're pretty nationalistic over there when you gets the impression that it's on both sides.
When incidents like this happen everybody runs and gets the flags and starts waving it because regardless of political persuasion whether you're Democratic or Republican in China with the apparently pro-government or anti-government these issues seem to be issues of national pride and they said that during the Balkan crisis when the Chinese embassy was bombed and there was loss of life in Belgrade that we the the Chinese public opinion was that America really didn't properly apologize make restitution and that this was a way in which saying wait a second we're not going to allow a pass on this particular encounter. We remember the past you got off easy but I go ahead I go back to my original point. If the crisis didn't last very long it wasn't you know Nightline started with what was a day whatever it was they made a whole show out of the Iran hostage thing the word hostage was never used by the administration. He got to bravely hide them all in this administration first elected its cabinet it was
thought that there would be a power struggle between the Defense Department and the State Department. There was so and power. It would appear that on this occasion there was no significant tension at all. Well look at what once you make the decision of them a critical priority for you is getting your 24 people out and I don't think anybody would dispute that decision. And this is a matter for diplomacy. You know there is going to be some kind of letter that gets written in all probability. You can you can discuss if you I want to play it that way. I mean if you want to have you know the president stand up and make demands that the Chinese immediately forthwith and then without hesitation return our people and thats the end of it you and I will talk to them otherwise. Well you can play it that way and maybe that would have been a different way to play it but they didn't choose to play it that way. And once you once you make the decision not to play it that way then obviously it's a matter for the State Department. Well when we talk about leaders have to be written the letter that was written one of the intriguing sides of this for me is the point you raised earlier about how the Chinese interpret very sorry twice in their
language versus how we interpret it. I suspect that most of the public is saying what the heck is really going on here. You say sorry you apologize. They always say it's all right we really did he didn't apologize. We didn't use that word. We didn't apologize apology. You know this is beginning to sound. This is beginning to sound Clinton is not that I don't know. And look we wrote what we wrote and that fact is that the Chinese state controlled media which is not free to translate on its own what that letter says is publishing information about the contents of it that is false. But that ambiguity was intentional that was designed and that's been the word game that's been played with China for the last 30 years since relations was dabblers. Normally with Nixon's visit and before that that's just the way the game is played with China. And unfortunately for all involved in this incident the ambiguity this intentional ambiguity was able to get the issue resolved without having to say something that is really ironclad and an exchange of money and an acceptance
of guilt and blame. Well we're going to take a short break. As we speak about diplomatic ambiguity when we come back we will talk more circum times hopefully about the Bush budget. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Come back on Monday President Bush offered details of his budget for fiscal year 2002
a two trillion dollar proposal that increases overall spending by 4 percent depending on who you're talking to. But it cuts whole programs in several departments. White House officials say this is a representation of compassionate conservatism but many question the choices for program cuts 2.2 trillion. But as McKinley there is. One million here a million there. Then you are really two years. You might even be talking about real money after a while. You have to factor into this that there is a long process. Tom Davis the number four in Reinke the Republicans said look this budget is a matter of talking points. Somebody like Mr. Novak writes that. Look this guy is great George Bush he wants to take away all these special projects which account for $17 billion which you know what is it some money for Robert birds of potato
processing plant in process. Prosser West Virginia and Ted Stevens is plant 100 million for Alaska highways. Well you don't mess with those guys. STEVENS That's the chair of the Appropriations Committee and the other guy is the ranking member and then they want to cut some money for Indian and Native Americans. Well that's a Pete Domenici of New Mexico. He doesn't like it. So you have the sort of situation where there are Republicans who say that this budget is a budget that is unrealistic in terms and that there should be more non-discretionary spending and that and that will and that this is just a starting point in any negotiation. And the Democrats say if he didn't have this he's making his financially precarious. The Senate has already done this resolution that cuts the tax cut from 1.6 to 1.2 meaning that. And Tom Daschle on a great line said this budget is not dead on arrival it was dead before arrival. But who can who can cover it there's going to be
compromise there's going to be concessions. This is just the starting game of a long numbers game. Yeah. Well it is a certain game of the Long Now it seems to get longer every year now. Yeah. And of course it's virtually impossible for it to finish on time and all the rest of it that we'll see it's actually a really interesting test of that this year since we have Congress and the White House and we control the same party with the possible exception of the Senate since that's rather precarious than 50/50. I think Bush deliberately set a number higher than he would have otherwise been inclined to set it. And the reason was that you know he could have taken a harder line negotiating position on spending than he did. But he thought and has his budget people have argued that it made more sense to put something on the table that was in some sense reasonable. In other words it's going to be very difficult to get Congress not to indulge its spending ways. And I think Bush and targeting two things one of these
congressional earmarks. And second to some degree I mean not to completely but some of the so-called corporate welfare stuff has has tried to frame the debate in such a fashion as to make Congress really defend the kind of spending that it wants to have. In other words we're not having if we're not having a fight here about children and getting nutrition to them and all that because those programs are well funded by Bush he hasn't taken great risks and those areas. Instead we're talking about. Mr. Hill Mr. Steve Senator Stevens's highway project and Senator Byrd's potato plan. And and that's that's a that's a much more congenial terrain for Bush to be on. You know the the irony is that we're in an age of budget surpluses rather than deficits. And the president is proposing what would be an austere deficit kind of budget. Of course we've got to pay a lot attention to the pork barrel projects which are going to get added on in the end
anyway because that's the legislative process and that's what the legislators do. And who is going to challenge them on their turf. Certainly not this president not this administration. But the irony is that the the the cost of this 1.6 trillion dollar tax cut is not just pork barrel projects that are wasteful and should be done away with anyway but it's really Social Security which is now off the table and the rehabilitation of the welfare of Social Security is not even being discussed anymore in the political debate. Furthermore some of the energy cuts that he's made are probably the most dangerous and long have the long term effect of putting not just the United States but the planet in danger of nuclear proliferation. Howard. Mr. Bush said Nuclear a number of nuclear nonproliferation to cutting back on aid to the
destruction of Soviet warheads they got 5000 warheads over there were doing. We're cutting back on that and cutting back on renewable energy like we're going to have this SUV a gas guzzler unlimited oil supply forever and ever amen. It's not going to happen then the things that we should be doing for the future like wind and solar research and things like that that are precisely the things that are getting cut. This. This all sounds very good but what does this budget mean to the average American we've all gotten so sophisticated in analyzing the budget that it seems like we no longer talk. And what in terms of what this means the average family of four what this means the average person's income is under $300000 in here. Let me on my Medicare we talk about some specific cuts. There's a 200 or 300 million dollar program for the most vulnerable citizens to crime that is public housing residents. President Bush cut that program out totally doesn't exist to the environment. The EPA took the biggest hit of all the agencies.
That's very important. And then he also got into some of political things. Anything that Bill Clinton was associated with the what is and 100000 policemen that project is gone. And some people might say that those three things are have an impact on people's daily lives and some people will say they don't. So I guess we should move to another topic one that is a little earlier if a little disastrous and that is the situation in Cincinnati. On Thursday mayor Charles Luken declared a state of emergency set up an 8:00 p.m. curfew allowing only residents are going to and from work to be on the streets between 8:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m.. That followed three nights of unlawful behavior some rioting demonstrations in response to the shooting death of 19 year old Timothy Thomas. He is the fourth black male to die at the hands of Cincinnati police since November the 15th killed in five years. The reports point out that since 1995 no white individual in Cincinnati has been killed by a police officer. And there are those who are saying
where have I heard this story before so frequently so much recently you have to wonder if there's somebody out there who is simply not listening it would appear that in this case this was an individual who had several traffic citations that he had not paid him a couple of misdemeanors a Apparently he made a break for it into an alley and the next thing you know he was shot dead. What happens next. It sure is remnants of the 60s there and all you have to look is is the tape that Nightline last night. There was the mayor and that was the leader of the religious community and the same problems that we all were all too familiar with in the 60s in terms of police insensitivity in terms of people who run the city departments that are insensitive. 43 percent of the population in Cincinnati is black. There's a white mayor I believe there's a white police chief. But they talk about an ingrained culture of police insensitivity. One of the things I found the most fascinating was that
the the religious leader was talking about the culture of the police department has to be changed and one of the reasons they can't change it is that by law by charter the police chief must come through the ranks of the Cincinnati Police Department. Now one of the very first things we remember in the 60s is that somebody from outside would come in and clean up a department that was not very sensitive to the community in which they were supposed to serve. They obviously need a charter change and they need to have some great personnel changes. Yeah. Well you know I think I think they're going to get that in a big hurry too. I From everything that we're seeing so far this has really taken a lot of people by surprise. But. You know I got rioting is a terrible thing. And what I want to try to make what I want to try to address just a little bit is is the problem of the shootings and what we've
seen here I think is not is not 14 instances in which a black man was killed and the people have risen up and taken to the streets actually you could make a pretty decent case that the people of Cincinnati were relatively patient and waiting for some of these matters to be addressed. Now this is again is not to is not to excuse any of the any of the violence and the burning and so forth that's been going on. But clearly there is a very serious problem in this police department and it's not a problem that is unfamiliar to other police departments. And so I think that they do need to get somebody in who can be serious about addressing these issues and they need to do it quickly Askia it seems as if it's pointed out why one cannot approve of the rioting that takes place. It has an uncanny way of drawing attention to these problems the kind of attention that it clearly would not have otherwise got.
And you can look at the progression of the new story about this from the back pages to the front pages of the newspapers as the violence continued. It just would not subside until the point of marshal law practically was imposed curfew and 70 people arrested on the part of the mayor and Kweisi Mfume just like the 60s goes in to try to put a lid on the black community anger. You know this the the frustration that builds up over time so frequently as it is around these issues of you know the Richard Pryor joke. In fact you know they exaggerate. I am reaching for my wallet. You know you hear Richard Pryor do the joke and it and it really is hilarious. But then certainly did in 1974 by the time and you see you see this you see this happened four times in November 15 times since
1995. And it's not funny anymore. And the people in Cincinnati certainly are laughing. This young man his mother moved from Chicago to get away from the mean streets. And you know he'd gotten the job and was about to make progress. He's the father of a 3 month old child so he's not just into the thug life. I mean he had obviously some problems which perhaps in hindsight. OK you got my. Are you prepared to argue that this was the most fine upstanding citizen of society. But the fact is that he was unarmed and the fact that again let's let's turn to the fact that you know there are thing yeah there have been shootouts between the Cincinnati Police Department and a guy shooting at them. And in which the perpetrator alleged or actually has been killed and that did not cause people to take to the street as a mother. The fact is that this guy was unarmed and running as a mother the mother. I thought most gave the most compelling and emotional first surviving son. I don't know if she has more than one son was standing and she said I'm sure he has parking tickets
outstanding. Are you going to shoot him. So she felt comfortable to say that because she felt that somebody who is an African-American in Cincinnati who has any kind of criminal citation it's open game on them. And that was that was greeted with with some sort of emotional support because that seems to be a fact of life in that city because of her return but just return to one point which I I think I'm not making well and I want to try I want to take one more crack at it. The you know the riots are going to hurt this community and the damage that gets done in these cases is lasting and it's hard to repair and it's expensive to repair. And that's one of the experiences of the 1960s there are other ways to protest or to protest effectively. And I think we've seen some instances in which in which those those kinds of protests have been conducted to be asked. Just point your point to time what what happens. The mayor said last night I hear from the president the United States. He calls me I hear from the governor. I
mean I'm scared. He didn't call out the National Guard he hasn't asked for that. He doesn't want to do that but that's exactly what does occur that. What can I do. That's what President Bush asked the mayor Mayor Luken of Cincinnati at the root of this you have a problem which must be addressed which is this this white fear of black males white police fear of black males white police who have guns fear of black males Amadou Diallo over and over again. This is a scenario that we see. And somehow or another there you know is it training is that sensitivity What is it. It's something that has to come to address this issue that you don't just shoot first and ask questions later and have to move on. The attorney general John Ashcroft has announced that he will permit a closed circuit broadcast of Timothy McVeigh's execution the family members of the 168 people killed in the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Building have the right to witness the execution that's going to take place on May 16th. The attorney general also has limited Timothy McVeigh to what amounts to 15 minutes of
telephone conversation per day and has asked the news media to restrain its enthusiasm or restrain their enthusiasm for interviewing Timothy McVeigh. However several journalists have already indicated how are you going to restrain enthusiasm in a case that's just this big. This is a big story. There's no way you're going to turn this away from it. However at least 250 family members have indicated an interest in viewing this execution. Well I mean I must say I find this nauseating and depressing as issues get that I think that the most nauseating and depressing aspect of it is the extent to which this mass murderer is able to transform his wish for his own execution into the kind of circus that is apparently going to be the televised execution is an interesting problem in its own right. What's going to happen is a carefully encrypted closed circuit television
broadcast that goes all over the world. Yeah. With that with everybody in the world trying to trying to break in on it and to and to cause a tape to be made. You know I am sympathetic to the proposition that victims ought to be families of victims ought to be allowed to witness this if it is their desire to witness it. On the other hand I think that we also ought to remember that the purpose of the death penalty is not to satisfy the the desire for revenge etc. but rather to do justice. Now we can have a debate about whether or not the death penalty is Droste in that context and that's certainly a debate that is going on here Mary in Maryland and elsewhere. But but I you know I am I'm somewhat I'm I'm somewhat troubled by this by the idea of we're setting in motion something that may not in the end be controllable. I certainly don't want my grandchildren to
hear the whatever it is that Timothy McVeigh has to say on the eve of his execution. Having had a preserved forever on the Internet you know the attorney general went to Oklahoma City talked to the families. If we are disputed I guess was undecided whether or not to do this. After talking the families decided to approve doing this this is the first federal execution since 1963. He justifies it in that no crime no murder. Such a great number of people has ever occurred in America where there's one perpetrator and that this justifies that. There are family members who don't feel that this brings closure or that that does not please them. There doesn't seem to be an outrage among the public about this but you might be right as we come closer to the date maybe the reality of really this war will offend people the minute outlays. Having people witness the ear
I thought there would be I thought there would be raise that I thought there was a greater sense of outrage about that. Is this really what is its purpose. What is really the underlying rationale justification for this extraordinary situation. OK I'll get your comment when we come back. We do have to take a short break. When we come back. As I said we'll talk more about the Timothy McVeigh execution. Todd mentioned the situation in Maryland where the General Assembly adjourned on Monday without adopting a bill that would have set a moratorium on executions. We'll talk about that when we come back. Welcome back. We were discussing the execution of Timothy McVeigh in May and the fact that
some 250 relatives of victims had indicated and indicated and indicated the desire to watch the execution of Attorney General John Ashcroft has given them that privilege on closed circuit television the you are about to come. Well the reason that one of the reasons that compelled the attorney general is that only eight people can witness the execution in person. And I think one or two victims or four survivors like them will be present at the execution which takes place in Terre Haute Indiana but the rest will be in in Oklahoma City and some of them simply as as I heard one say. Want to see him take his last last breath. I mean it's just as simple as that. They just want to see him put to death. And I think the emotion involved in this case if he were you know if the amount of his sentence or commuted or if he got put away and was not send this to death and not executed. He didn't like Jeffrey Dahmer or
some some the last person that you would expect some trustee would would would do would be a team the men would just it would be over. The emotion involved in this just requires that the people too many people think he needs to die and people just want to see him as this that draw his last breath and go to meet his maker. Do I have to move on the in Maryland General Assembly did not in fact adopt the bill that would have set a moratorium on state executions supporters apparently decided the measure lacked the votes to overcome a threatened filibuster among those supporters to supporters members of the Maryland Legislative Black Caucus. They essentially struck a deal. Yeah. What they got out of this was first of all you can revisit the issue. They surely built enormous public consciousness about this. This all started with not a flaming liberal by the name of Governor George Ryan of Illinois who said that the conservative Republican who said that look it's just too capricious I can't sign these death warrants. And so there is a moratorium. Illinois is
the only state so the legislature tried to do this. Led by African-American legislators. They what they got is two things. One is legislation having to do with in terms of there's a murder DNA testing the judge's eyes as a judge can decide if it's warranted. The second thing which is which is also kind of a spin off of this is a commission to look into the idea that felons convicted felons who serve their sentences who now are forbidden to vote will be allowed to vote. Mike Miller the state Senate president in a legislative protocol or what is what is the proper parliamentary maneuver just adjourned the legislature so that they could not vote on this issue. But these things build up momentum and you better believe in the next 90 day sessions starting next year. The issue will
come up again. The major point in Maryland is that there are four people presently on death row that will be executed. This is scheduled for execution this year three of the four of black and of the nine of the 13 that are on death row not to be scheduled to be executed this year nine of those are black. OK we do have to move on because we got a lot of issues we wanted to cover tonight. And this one has to do with the bombing in Birmingham Birmingham Alabama of that church back in 1964. 1963 the circuit court judge James Garrod recently ruling that a secretly recorded audio tape made by the FBI can be used in the prosecution of the case against Thomas Blanton Jr. He is a former Ku Klux Klan member. He faces murder charges in that case. Trial set to begin Monday. Yeah well it's obviously a big development for the prosecution case to be able to use this evidence the argument against it is it's one it's a somewhat
arcane issue of why whether whether the laws that apply to wiretapping at the time should be applicable to this tape now or whether the fact that the laws have changed in the intervening time had made made that all difference. The upshot of it is that the judge said go ahead the tape can indeed be used. And and I think that that's probably going to mean that you know this is this is a case that obviously people have been interested in for a long time and that people have worked very hard in order to bring the prosecution. And now if the indications are that the evidence is as strong as the prosecutors think it is with this tape then it's going to be a very damaging thing for the defense. Thirty seven years later Birmingham is a much different place politically than it was back then had a black mayor and the representative in Congress. I'll tell you it is black. It is a quite a different place from the Bull Connor
city of 37 years ago. But you know the the the irony is that you know and I guess that the idea that you cannot escape justice as Martin Luther King Jr. often said the moral arc of the universe is long but it bends star justice. And if this tape that was made although there has not been any indication what's on the tape Evidently it must favor the prosecution. This tape was made that was made by a listening device planted under the guise sink in his kitchen is what brings him down and then I suppose good for that. What's at stake though is that the whole notion of innocent until proven guilty and the the process as important as this crime is you know you would think that. And as a as not to make any kind of a martyr out of Timothy McVeigh but you would
think that well if he'd done it why didn't he just stand up and take his medicine. If he gets it now. Good for him. And if this tape helps bring him down then I don't suppose it's necessarily a violation of his civil rights. Mark Plotkin This is general the D.C. control board reached an agreement with Doctors Hospital the owners of Greater Southeast Hospital to provide health care for the district's 80000 uninsured residents. Service part of which was provided by the public benefit corporation. However that is the city council has its own plan in mind giving up 21 million dollars which is a first step in keeping D.C. General open and the public benefits corporation operation at least until September 30th when the control board goes out of control so to speak or goes out of office and is therefore not able to close the inpatient services at D.C. General Hospital. Well there's a power struggle going on of 12 of the 13 council members with the exception of Harold
Brazil who seems to be the most loyal member of the council at least toward Mayor Williams says look we want a public hospital in this city and we what really they want to do is buy time and they're just not faking it. They're putting money there. The control board headed by Alice Rivlin they're five members. They're not elected appointed by the president the United States. They are a creation of a U.S. Congress and the mayor is threatening to veto that today late today he said maybe we have some room to negotiate. But the council in an extraordinary act of institutional independence and sort of I would say integrity is saying wait a second we're going to take you on on this decision of this impact should not be the final decision of an unelected body which is the control board and they're saying to the mayor you're wrong you're misreading public sentiment and we're not going to do away with this hospital.
Congresswoman Connie Morella says that she will stay out of it. She remains unconvinced that the plan that is being offered by the city council would have this general operate any better than it currently than it currently has or has been doing the last five or 10 years which brought about the situation in the first. The council says that they will. Legislation which provided binding authority for the public benefit corporation and provided other financial guarantees and financial incentives that would make that a viable and solvent institution and that the executive branch didn't implement the legislation and they're saying we can make something out of this. DC General we can have urban health campus we can have NIH come in here. Don't do away with this because you're going from a non-profit publicly oriented hospital to a for profit hospital in somebody like Kevin Chavis thinks that it's nothing more than a land deal. Is that the administration the Williams administration wants to get at that land and that the residents are not being well-served by this.
There are a lot of people who think that this is a land grab just pure and simple. The land near the Anacostia River they think is prime land and certainly it's the United States Washington D.C. and Baltimore get their 2012 Olympics. This is they say part of the archery contest will take place in the scheme to use this prime land but more importantly the idea of D.C. General along with Howard University have two of the finest trauma units for handling trauma because they handle so many of them in this region that is gunshots and blunt force trauma and automobile accidents. These are a couple of the best hospitals of this kind in the country. In addition the teaching facility the teaching aspect of this hospital is also an important function that you get good care at Boston general D.C. General the
kind of care that patients receive at this sort of a facility where you have residents and teachers and all kinds of people making the medical decision is on a high level and a quality level. The problem is that you don't have you have so many uninsured patients and some administrative problems which have caused the hospital the public benefit corporation not to receive money was do like money food treating prisoners that inmates at the D.C. jail money for are getting reimbursement for Medicaid right and being reimbursed we have heard from successive administrations that the public benefit corporation was created in order to solve this problem. We have heard from some successive administrations successive leaderships of the public benefit corporation. We have reformed everything's going to change. The same thing continues to happen over and over again. Why should we believe any differently this time. A and B even if the public benefit corporation in this general stays open
it does not solve the problem of the 80000 uninsured people in the District of Columbia it may solve the problems in a particular part of the city but that does nothing for the rest of us is a geographic situation that we haven't discussed that you're moving D.C. General. You may be moving the main hospital or the main purveyor of Health Service to greater Southey's can be has but which is on the Maryland line which the whole thing about health care supposedly is access and that is the wrong place to put it. And people are not going to take their vouchers and go to all these clinics 100 clinics that are supposed to be available. It's just going to create an enormous burden and also having to do with emergency paramedics and ambulances. This is not well thought out and there are many questions about just the financial viability of doctors. The corporate parent. Well I'm I'm an absolute idiot on the subject because I actually thought there was a chance that something rational was going to happen as a result of it. And now with the actual D.C. Council it is abundantly
clear that that is not going to happen. And so I think what we'll probably be doing is talking about this very expensive difficult intractable problem that is utterly resistant to any serious effort at reform probably for the next 10 years as we have for the past. But it's probably not right because Congress will at one point intervene and disallow what the council's done something they can do to every piece of legislation which the city council does this was what they'll probably exercise. Moving on staying with medical news this past week scientists reported that human fashion can now be a new source for stem cells. Currently most stem cell research uses aborted fetuses. Scientists believe that stem cell replacement may play a valuable role in the treatment of diseases such as cancer and Parkinson's disease. This is all good news. This is a this is a very big story. And you know the problem with a lot of the treatments that have been talked about for things like Parkinson's and other complicated diseases is the source of
the tissue issues that have proven to be most effective hitherto have been from embryos. And usually those that have been involved with abortions and that of course has made this immense political football. People being obviously unwilling to fund that kind of research and so forth. But now it turns out what we're seeing is that is that there are a lot more. Apparently there are a lot more things that cells can do than originally was thought in the case of some of them in the case of fat cells in particular. They can be made to develop the characteristic of muscle tissue and of cartilage. This is you know it's a it's a it's a medical breakthrough and it's an ethical breakthrough. And in that respect I think it's totally good news. The only other thing the other thing about it is you know finally that right. I don't know. I want to go out and come in and help me.
Well I mean you know live by the liposuction market that you people used to think that that was essentially a frivolous and parasitical act on society. Right but now you're doing it for stem cell research when you have it. So I out like that what makes the stem cell unique and not in the scientific explanation because I don't understand the science. But then the simple explanation is that they can assume the characteristics of that of other tissues other than what you might have thought they were and this is in embryos when they haven't developed. But in mature people we were finding that now you have these these cells which can be adapted. And lo and behold they're in in fact. So hey the couch potatoes I can rule. Well you know we've been denouncing fat for so long since we became so calorie conscious that I'm sure there are some people out there who are more than happy that we have found an extremely useful medical use for it being scientific and doing scientific work by sitting on the
TV with. The medical privacy rule. President Bush agreed to allow it to go forward. It was developed under President Clinton and the health care industry was lobbying very heavily against it. President Bush says it will go forward. This will in effect helps patients to regain some control over their privacy and their medical records. But it's not over yet because there may still be some tinkering. It's the sort of the Clinton vetoed like the President Bush who says well we'll let it go forward but we'll inspect or we'll look at some of the regulations that the President Clinton put in place last year and maybe will revise them or we'll tinker with them or tamper with them to make them a little bit more implementable and not so expensive. But what amazes me is that the health industry probably that the largest industry and one among the most generous contributors. They're outraged that what they felt
was their guy is not going along with their program much to his credit. But that they would think that they might have to spend 35 to 40 billion dollars for equipment and cost to keep medical records records private. It's like asking the math of that I'm having trouble for. He's taking care of them against the hated. Enemy. Trial lawyers in terms of the patients bill of rights. I mean he's not he's not at all never negotiating. I know. And I think that's probably much more important to their pocketbook than the privacy issue. Go ahead. Well no I was just going say that's what happens when you get in line behind the ergonomics people and the arsenic people and the greenhouse gas people. I mean eventually I guess he's got to say no we've all got slammed down now. Well I think also the fact that the health care industry thought that this was this guy ignored the fact that a large number of people virtually all of us
who reach adulthood have medical records and are concerned about those records being sent to people especially employers who something like that. There's a there's a very serious issue here. I think there are mean this is this is not a this is not some liberal plot against HMO isn't there. They're very serious about this in this case as you know the guy Navy. You know I'm on one issue doesn't toe the line. I mean kind of surprises us. I mean to go to Todd's point of view let's be open minded each capable of a wise and humane philosophy. Occasionally he spent an entire campaign trying to tell you this also but this is an actual action that backs up his word. This is also what he wanted you to say Mark that you've fallen for it indicates the political viability of this issue as opposed to some of the other issues the public is concerned about privacy privacy and not so much all of these and I'm afraid that's all the time we have. As always I'd like to thank our panelists for joining us with most of all thanks to you for bearing with
us. Stay well. Goodnight ready for the
Series
Evening Exchange
Episode
Race in the 21st Century
Producing Organization
WHUT
Contributing Organization
WHUT (Washington, District of Columbia)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/293-741rnhtq
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Description
Episode Description
WAMU political commentator Mark Plotkin, Tod Lindberg of "The Policy Review", and Askia Muhammad of "The Washington Informer" discuss varied topics in three segments. The first segment discusses the incident involving a Navy spy plane and the Hainan Islands of China. The second segment discusses the Bush administrations 2002 budget proposal in which he makes severe cuts to social and environmental programs but invests more into oil. They also discuss the Cincinnati, OH riots sparked by the police shooting of an unarmed 19 year old African American male, Timothy Thomas. The televised execution of Timothy McVeigh is briefly touched on. The ruling of Circuit Court Judge James Garrett in favor of bringing secretly recorded audio against KKK member Thomas Blanton, Jr for the 1963 bombing of a church in Birmingham is brought up. The last segment covers a number of medical news highlights including: a new funding agreement with D.C. General Hospital, the medical privacy ruling, and the use of human fat cells as non-
Created Date
2001-04-13
Asset type
Episode
Topics
Global Affairs
Race and Ethnicity
Health
Politics and Government
Law Enforcement and Crime
Rights
Copyright 2001 by Howard University Television
Media type
Moving Image
Duration
01:00:59
Embed Code
Copy and paste this HTML to include AAPB content on your blog or webpage.
Credits
Director: Ashby, Wally
Guest: Plotkin, Mark
Guest: Lindberg, Tod
Guest: Askia, Muhammad
Host: Nnamdi, Kojo
Producer: Sojourner, Sabrina
Producing Organization: WHUT
Publisher: WHUT-TV
AAPB Contributor Holdings
WHUT-TV (Howard University Television)
Identifier: (unknown)
Format: Betacam
Generation: Master
Duration: 00:55:33
If you have a copy of this asset and would like us to add it to our catalog, please contact us.
Citations
Chicago: “Evening Exchange; Race in the 21st Century,” 2001-04-13, WHUT, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 29, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-293-741rnhtq.
MLA: “Evening Exchange; Race in the 21st Century.” 2001-04-13. WHUT, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 29, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-293-741rnhtq>.
APA: Evening Exchange; Race in the 21st Century. Boston, MA: WHUT, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-293-741rnhtq