Evening Exchange; 2217; Year-in-Review

Al Gore bowed out. Trent Lott was forced out the African Union was created. Maryland elected a Republican governor and DC's mayor got kicked off the primary ballot in 2002. What a year. A look back next on evening Xchange. Hi I'm Cojo nom de It was a year that was dominated early on by news of corporate corruption. When Enron and WorldCom and Arthur Andersen became household words but were soon overtaken in the news by two more familiar household words Saddam Hussein words in the news even today as Iraq announced it would allow scientists to leave that country to be questioned. But we're getting ahead of ourselves and the head of our

attempt to bring order to a world that seems determined to resist it. Of course we'd be doing well if we can bring order to a discussion of the events of the past year. So let's just try for that to help us maintain that order. You've got Jack White of Howard University School of Communications and TIME magazine Lindbergh of the Hoover Institution and policy review. Allison Bethel of the Detroit News and Mark Plotkin of WTOP radio. Well Bill Frist is in the future. Trent Lott is in the path really looking back at the year 2002. So I guess we have to start with the Trent Lott first. Did you know this was going to happen that at one point did you know it was when he did the deed. I knew it was going to be out after after the press finally belatedly woke up and started making a big fuss about his inappropriate comments that old man Strom Thurmond's well-handled birthday celebration. I mean it was just a matter of time. Interesting to me is you know race is still the political gift that just keeps on giving. It never it never runs out. It is still possible for people to

continue tripping over this land. Why are the politics even now in the 21st century. Well of course the media that first started pointing this out happened to be a conservative analyst and columnist. Yeah. Well I think in the first place it was the timing on it was strange because there were reporters present but nobody particularly reported on their on their sleep. Yeah. Well it's understandable. In fact I believe the guest of honor Strom Thurmond himself was around it. And let's not go let's not talk about it but in any case you know it really picked up over the Internet and then I think you know by early the week and the week after it it was pretty clear that this was going to be a firestorm among conservatives who for whom this was not acceptable. And you know I don't think the Senate was Senate leadership. It's at a very slow to pick up. You know there's an crep pressure later in the week mainly coming from the Congressional Black Caucus in the house which I think energized some Democrats in the Senate to say something with by and large this was a

conservative show. I think you know I think that that wing of the party I mean the old Southern wing represented a way by and by Lott by some of the other members of the Republican leadership has really been chastened but this lot was determined. It would appear to fight it out for a while but it looked as if the White House coming out forcefully against them may have had a lot to do with his ultimate exit. Why the silence of the White House to some extent and the silence of other people who said you know sort of hands off. I think what's really interesting is that you had a split among African-Americans to some extent. Some said you know the guy apologized for our lifetimes. John Lewis leading the pack. At what point do we say OK we need to forgive and forget and back off and to some extent use this is a means to get some of the things that African-Americans are trying to get like reparations.

Let let let you know when you peel underneath all this rage out of politics and a regular kind of politics going on here a lot of Republicans including some conservatives see a number of benefits in doing this one them this is a pretty easy way to get rid of a guy like too much anyway and trying to prove that they aren't racist which the charges leveled against him. People like John Lewis who is one of our one of my all time heroes on the run I once got him in the in time magazine who was a living saint. What Trent Lott did not only for purposes of redemption but also because he's a nice person that was a symbol of all the problems that Republicans have had could beat up on him. I want to break into just a symbol. This guy was a throwback I mean for a long time people weren't talking about his background. The guy came out of law school when he was 30 years old and went to work for William Cohen who was an out and out racists and segregationist. This is 1972. This is not you know this is after seven years after the Voting Rights Acts eight years after the Civil Rights Bill. And this wasn't talked about but this guy always was bad and I knew he was doomed or destined to be doomed. When

Mark Shields said Democrats were saying to him how do we keep him. And the Republicans knew that every single time he came out or if he was going to continue to come out not just explaining him he represented everything bad and negative about that. I think we've learned something else about the Bush crew and this the Bush crew keeps accounts. Trent Lott supported Jack Kemp against say the elder. The elder Bush that's been in their little book all the time. They've been waiting and waiting waiting. And believe me it's part of the calculation for why they were so solemn. It them to fight. What is your rationale for your boy John coming out saying. Is a great dad to beat up. Well no I think in addition to the fact that there might have been a political calculation on John Lewis this part you've written about him you know him of all of the people in the civil rights movement John Lewis has always had the reputation of being the one who tends to be if he believes in the creation of the heavenly society here on earth and he's probably already living at it he's the

only person who's living it. But I think that's one of the things that well good enough to say the Republican Party has purged itself of this of this odious figure Trent Lott. But I go back to the point how do they vote. Are they going to vote any differently or are they just going to be more careful rhetorically. And I don't think they're going to vote any differently and I don't think Dr. Frist is going to vote any differently and if he wants to do something right away sorry to say so much in character. He can come out for a majority African-American jurisdiction the District of Columbia can come out so he can leave but you never would have guessed that leading the charge. Wonders never cease. The holiday season I don't care what other people like Thad Cochran to do the same thing. Well how they vote not what they say. Al Gore was making the rounds on a book tour. But it was widely believed that he was cranking up his 2004 presidential candidacy. He seemed to be ubiquitous everywhere at once. And then at the end of it all he says I'm not going to run in the year

2004 what does this now mean to and for the Democratic Party. Well it means a wide open field for starters. You know Gore was not popular among the party's elite in Washington in particular and there was very little sentiment and stickily in support of him running that would have created some fundraising difficulties but if you look at the numbers the polling numbers clearly the man was the frontrunner. Now in addition unfortunately to who's to his strengths among the Democratic base electorate in particular. He also has very high negatives politician. People have many people who made up their mind about him. And the conclusion they reached is that they don't particularly like him. And so that is I think what was the biggest concern among among the Washington crowd and also I think some sense of resentment at not having won a winnable election in 2000. I guess he said he didn't want to revisit the 2000 election but was that the real

issue here know his reasons for pulling out remain a mystery to me. I think though that they did do some looking around there and I think they realized that Todd mentioned this animus against them among many party leaders as a real thing a lot of people somehow or others try to figure out how despite the fact that he got the most the most popular votes last time that he's somehow responsible for losing the election. I think that's part of the problem. You knew that the new knew that this was coming when he hosted the Saturday Night Live. Had a lot themselves to impersonate Trent Lott on Saturday Night Live. What about the hot tub with Joe Lieberman. What does that do to Joe Lieberman. Well Joe Lieberman was there wasn't the actual joke. But you know he lost some ground after. After the election when you saw Bill Clinton say more then you saw him when the country needed their leaders most intimate with you know. Yeah you know licking his paws in the

background. And I think he lost a lot of points. But the average Joe on that because they were saying where is the man who we've got that oh we voted for him or did he pass the mark Plotkin litmus test does he come out a full voting rights for statehood early. But even though he's right on that score you know in answer to answer your question why did he do it. There is empirical evidence that he called up people on Saturday asked him for money. And these were his donors and they said no I'm not going to give you to this day. So that will stop. The second thing is that instead of a sympathy for winning the popular vote for being cheated out of the election where many people feel. No sympathy or consolation was accorded him it was like How did you lose that one. And so they were resentful rather than empathetic toward his plight. One of them is the first prominent Democrat to call the whole Trent Lott remarks racist and he is moving into his statement. There is one of the reasons why things started to move on the Democratic side.

Why would you want some solutions who comes who benefits from this. And some actually no. I was just going to say watch to Howard Dean who is trying to do the Jimmy Carter 76 thing. You know and everybody is getting sort of a kick out of him. And then Al Al Sharpton who is to the Democratic Party their worst nightmare just because of what they feel is unpredictability and the fact that this guy might win the South Carolina primary. Howard Dean is who is governor I'm not sure who is on the map who's going to win in the midterm election. The Republicans were able to take the Senate back and they kept control of the house. The Trent Lott issue may have put a damper on the party. How do we assess the party right now. Well I think you know coming out of the midterm election where there were surprising gains I think everybody was pretty much surprised by that. I don't think there isn't a lot of advance crystal ball gazing would lead anywhere. You think this is going to happen. I'd say

positioned fairly well although But you know the Senate is a complicated body it's not a question of 51 votes in the Senate that it's a than 60 votes on a lot of things. You know I think Bush will be able to go through more of what he wants but not an infinite amount. And and there will be points I think which are Democrats who in the Senate in particular will figure out ways to try to push back on him. And again if your objective is to put together 40 people to do a filibuster that is an easier hurdle. And you know the result is perhaps a negative kind of agenda subject as opposed to the charge that that was. Republicans were pretty effective in leveling against that. Namely you know obstruction but. But that's you know that's it's sort of a Down the road kind of game by the way it's not clear to me that the Republican Senate won't be stronger. Under Frist than it will be under law. It's not that I think it will. I think it may well be it may mean that in the next presidential election they're

running completely on their own record. They control all the branches of both branches of Congress. The White House and the Supreme Court now swinging back those warnings will be awfully hard to pin it on Bill Clinton in the next in the next campaign which is good news has been what they have been trying to do to try to Prince Prince and Jimmy Carter. It's 25 years later but the midterm elections affected the States many many states tremendously where in the case of Michigan we sent more Republicans to the house than we've ever said. Yes we gained a woman Democrat. As governor. But I think it will be harder for our state and states like ours to get the sort of transportation funds we want and whatnot. And we lost some leadership and I think a lot of states lost some leadership. Many of those people who said that they were the Trent Lott incident had occurred before the term yes you can. Do you think the Democrats will be able to keep Trent Lott alive. Well they surely surely are going to try and I think the major task which is a good

segue to what I was going to bring up showing once again that we're telepathic is judicial selection. The Democrats are going to that's where the Senate plays a role. Know there's a front page story today about the Supreme Court and grooming is it Gonzales. Is it a gentleman named Wilkinson who's down in in terms of a litmus test. Will they what is the litmus test for judicial selection Strada man Miguel Estrada for the appeals court here in the District of Columbia or the Supreme Court that's where the Democrats and then I think will be able to find out whether they really peel off Republicans whether moderate Republicans or Republicans who are independent minded will vote with Democrats on issues like that. So I think the focus will be in terms of ideology and philosophy. Those judicial appointments and watch what the Senate is a body does. I mean you know they had planned to try to bring back some of these turkeys that they want to point to or hurt we're going to stand here that are all the same because of Trent Lott. I think they're going to have more difficulty getting some of these people through than they would have had otherwise. Well we began the year talking about WorldCom and Enron and Arthur Andersen and the State of the

economy the Democrats were hoping that that would be the discussion that would continue through the midterm election. The conversation was changed. But the economy has not improved significantly. I think that's going to be a bigger issue as we move ahead. Well if it doesn't start improving I'm sure it's got nowhere to go but up in terms of the salience people attached to it. But it's interesting. You know there really are two separate. Entities at the moment. There's no sort of direct linkage between Enron I mean I mean political link in people's minds between Enron WorldCom et cetera the corporate scandals and the sagging economy. I think there's some interesting reasons for that one of them is I think Democrats blue a blue that is an issue. I think when the Senate passed by whatever it was ninety six and one or 98 to one you know the corporate reform bill that quote solves all these problems for us unquote. It really took took the steam out of it in terms of using it with any salience in the election. And I think that was a missed opportunity and a kind of

canvas where there weren't too many opportunities. Let me Bush set to fire his whole economic team to put all put together Newt. So I think there has been some impact and I think they do recognize that they don't if they don't get that thing that front shored up that it is going to cause problems for them down at the can Bush do it. Can he bring back their so-called bring back the economy or help it not get any worse especially going into a war. One thing however to make the economy at the top of our consciousness at a time when we happen to be discussing war it seems to me that we don't cover the economy the way it was covered 30 or 50 years ago you don't see a whole or even a couple of years ago. And I think that the Christmas sales are telling us a lot. How many people are actually going out and not buying or not going out. I think people are very cautious. They realize that we're going to have a war and we've had some layoffs airline companies are filing bankruptcy right and left. We certainly don't have the sort of layoffs we had pre-September 11 of last year.

But I just said to me today we cover the economy in more macro terms a greater variety of stories about people being impoverished as a result of the economy. Those stories that kind of pull at the heart so God talked about Democrats belong and everybody thought that people were getting there were an investor class population 50 percent people own stocks that they would get their 401k statements and they would see the declines it's been the second year in a row and that would affect people maybe would retaliate against Republicans. Even Bush now is sensitive once again extending unemployment benefits. He's talking about cutting the tax and double taxation of dividends at some point. You know Bush was the elder was at 91 percent. And you remember James Carville statement I hate to repeat anything he says but it's the economy stupid. In two years you could see a replay. The reason that we don't do these things called goes back to my one trick is that because of conservative media bias. The reason you know some of the stories about good numbers to see that show that the number of homeless people for example is on the rise is that it's not the story that's going to get covered.

Layoffs are back up again. There are problems. These things are not going good because we are covering the homeless. I mean we're covering you know liberal media cabal. OK. But we are covering on now. OK. Why are we covering the homeless at this point in time because there's a Republican in the White House and it's Christmas and it's the thing the cover and whatever but I think that Cojo has a point. I don't think we cover the economy in quite clear ways that he used to you should know that if you you're just joining us that last week's discussion I think it was the week before we talked about how Jack White's column about conservative bites in time magazine came under attack by another columnist in The Washington Post. But that's another story the Congressional Black Caucus that was mentioned earlier that one of the reasons that the Democratic leadership began to criticize Trent Lott more was because of some pressure from the Congressional Black Caucus. Probably the only time we have seen in the last year or so about the influence of the Congressional Black Caucus on just about anything. However the caucus is now having new leadership.

The congressman from Maryland whose name you will know tell me you know this is going to all the new head of the Congressional Black Caucus will that make a difference. Yeah he is a he's a very smart very tough very good politician. And he and he's from he's from around these parts. So you'll are leaving extra. He won't have to go home on the weekend. And if the Republicans keep giving him stuff like Trent Lott to take advantage of this I think they will be heard from again. But I heard from an action are two different things. Tell me what they're going to do. That's what I would do anything I know except the Congressional Black Caucus. We can tell you right. I mean it's a whole show. Yeah but we need I think that the organization needs to come together a little more than they have in recent years. We had some momentum going with reparations and driving while black and they spoke out a lot and were on the forefront on that although they couldn't get a meeting with the president and still can't get a meeting that the president had a meeting and turned it down or whatever but there needs to be some

wider ideological variety in the. I think we are. And I think that's an excellent point. And I think that's very true. Trent Lott was dropped in the CBC's lap. I mean how could you not you know kind of comment on that. And in the middle of them changing leadership. But I have John on one hand who is you know and you have John Conyers on the other hand who have total we don't at all think alike. No we don't. We don't but we have to think alike or speak as one voice on certain issues. If you're going to be the Congressional Black Caucus I thought the whole purpose this is only part of a bigger issue for House Democrats now who you know got the new leader Nancy Pelosi. People talk about you know is she going to be effective or is she too liberal that's all. It's entirely the wrong question. The what matters now is what Democrats are able to agree on with each other because until there is some degree of cohesion it's going to be very difficult to cue up the kinds of issues and votes that you want to try to get in order to make your case the war on terrorism the possible war against Iraq and what the African Union might

be able to do about war. When we come back. Welcome back. The government of Iraq has agreed to let its scientists be questioned outside of the country. The latest in a series of events that the Bush administration jumpstarted last year by fingering Iraq President Saddam Hussein for alleged development of weapons of mass destruction and violations of U.N. resolutions. We will discuss how that situation evolved. Joining us now is Mohamed of the Washington and former and final call. And Joe Davidson of the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies. Jack White is still

with us as is Todd Lindenberg Iraq the latest development I just mentioned. It seems that Saddam Hussein is trying to do whatever he can to stave off war. But in the minds of most people it seems that war is virtually inevitable in this situation given the fact that the Bush administration says those 12000 pages that were submitted do constitute a material breach. He's hearing that that something is going to happen in late January early February regardless of what would happen in the interim. I mean the current flash point is whether or not he will actually allow Iraqi weapons scientists to go outside the country as the United States is insisting to be interviewed. The thought being that if they're in Iraq they may not be as candid is it would be if they go outside the secondary part of this is if they do as they will they be allowed to take their families with them. He said he will cooperate but he's also said he doesn't think it's necessary for them to leave. So this is not terribly clear where this is going. Does anyone know for sure besides Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. When and where this is going to

happen. No. You know I think it's there's parts of this that are more or less cued up and things are moving along obviously was the point and going on is not complete yet but it's getting there. You know Jack mentioned the timetable seems to be on the lips of everybody in Washington whether with basis in fact or not. I mean you know you do run up against problems if you wait too long into spring and there's the diplomacy which I think actually has been the surprising success for the Bush administration in terms of building the U.N. Security Council resolution. And in terms of you know working with people on it since then surely the problems of the Declaration. I'm glad you brought that up because we are supposed to be looking back and one has to remember that when this all got started it looked as if the U.S. was willing to go it alone. However as Todd pointed out the U.S. did eventually take the diplomatic route. And so far it seems to have worked but I guess the question is Where did this all come from.

I guess it's I guess it's questionable. I mean I think it has worked to an extent so far I think the question now is does it really matter. I mean it seems like the Bush administration is definitely geared up for war no matter what. Because they said well in advance that no matter that you cannot possibly find all of the weapons of mass destruction that Saddam Hussein may have had they said that before the inspectors went in. They also said that he lied repeatedly and that he basically can't help himself and this then the report is that point out that they said it was full of full of holes and lies and all of that may be true. But what it also does is it allows the Bush administration to say kind of like no matter what the inspectors say we the United States believe there is a reason to go to war and it looks and it looks like that's what it's that's what it's leading toward oil. But it looks like from my perspective is that you have the second largest world the world's second largest proven oil reserves and even much more belligerent North Koreans who are installing even as we speak of

nuclear rights for refueling are getting a pass who have long range missiles the Iraqis barely have a good will get past the Tigris and Euphrates River. Two thirds of their country is not patrolled by you and the United States and British aircraft and they have been inspected for eight years whatever they didn't find in those eight years or they managed to hiders or sequester or whatever for those eight years of which the Iraqis claim was nothing but spy missions to target objects for bombing by the United States and Britain how could they have restored it in four years. That the the United States is in a war posture and it seems as though the Iraqi posture of total submission may foil that. But under what circumstances will President Bush say you haven't submitted enough to take

scientists out of the country with their families and all their possessions and all of their TV and VCR and everything. It's like you're not interviewing these people you're trying to defect them and bring them to this country to make scientists out of mere looking back at the time when all this started it was a time when we didn't see it when all of a sudden we were having difficulty finding the leaders of al Qaeda terrorist organization that we said was the main focal point of the war on terror. We had then added this. This axis of terrorism. It looked at the time when it story is all and new since it might be interpreted by many people as a way to divert attention from the from the fact that the war on terrorism against al Qaeda was not going very well. You still we're still we're still we're many months later now. We now know for example that bin Laden was probably still alive. We now know that al Qaeda is starting to do attacks small Roskilde and then September 11th here. But they're starting to wake up again. We've had the incidents in Kenya with the incident at Valley. We had the

killing of an American diplomat in Jordan. They're on the move again. And the real question that I have and I think a lot of people have is if we go ahead with this business with with Iraq because we seem determined to do what is the impact that they're going to be on the war on terror is the war on terrorism going down the same road as the war on drugs and that is a lot of people say it's a war but we're losing. No. I mean I you know I don't I don't think that the first question of that year for the war was obviously good for the war on terrorism and the Taliban is gone. Karzai is actually beginning to develop some central control over Afghanistan. So you know the safe haven that was there is no more. Other governments around the world are cooperating extensively with U.S. intelligence and doing their own enforcement provisions. I mean Jack I think you raise an excellent question and I'm sure that it is much on everyone's mind. You know if if the price of Iraq is a drop of vigilance against these other kinds of things then obviously that's going to make people aware. What I haven't seen

demonstrated to me is why that would necessarily be so. I think there's pretty good evidence as far as I'm walking out of the. That we can both fight the war on terror. And the main reason the main question would be when they go in and start nailing some of the top leaders of al Qaeda you know they keep rounding up these people they round up a half dozen people in Buffalo and another group in Washington state. And there's no evidence that these people were actually on a high level terrorists. We haven't made any serious serious plots within the United States that we know of. And believe me if they had John Ashcroft would have been the first person to be out there declaring that. So I really wonder about not much progress there are also of course civil libertarians who are questioning some of the domestic effects of the war on terrorism the recent arrest of several Middle Eastern immigrants who had been requested to come and register only to find themselves arrested or voluntarily come in and fill out your documentation and

when you get there we've got plastic handcuffs for you guys. The first casualty in the war on terrorism was the Constitution of the United States the sixth amendment the fourth amendment the fifth amendment. The idea of of attorney client privilege has all been blown away by John Ashcroft and George W. Bush and now also all around the world every despotic dictator in the name of fighting the war on terrorism has become even more ironclad in his own country. But he is the target of Eritrea and Ethiopia saying well they are terrorists or the Somalis are or you know every country is pointing at the neighbor it doesn't like and saying they're harboring terrorists. And the United States is instead of rooting out terrorists it seems to me is cracking down on free speech and on freedoms that is in this. What do you say to those people who because of their implicit infinit trust in their government are saying the government knows what it's doing. These people who are being arrested are in the country

illegally. They could probably pose harm to us. Do some Americans don't some Americans maybe feel safer. Well you know the United States government has employed these tactics before and I think to its regret it's certainly the incarceration of Japanese American citizens from World War Two is something the United States government has apologized for. And I think it's sad. I think it's reasonable to say that there are things going on now that at some point in the future not too distant future. That's my hope. The United States will say no this is a mistake. And I think some of the some of the tactics of rounding up people because of their ethnicity is the kind of thing that goes against the grain certainly the spirit. And I think the law in this country is supposed to be about the alien and Sedition Act around the suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War. I mean these are the kinds of things that are going on now and the country regretted them. And I believe that building the building of a database that the government will have access to that list your every purchase know every transaction may

listen in on every conversation that you have as partners and that is part of what the policy is. And that's that's very dangerous. In the meantime what can only be described as a war in the Middle East continues. Maybe there hasn't been a formal declaration of war but all of the events that we have seen over the course of the past year indicate that that situation is not in any way shape or form being resolved. What does the United States. What did the United States do in the year 2002 that may have had some effect. We know that Secretary of State Colin Powell attempted some diplomacy there but we also know that he didn't seem to work well he didn't get what he wanted either. He didn't get this large international conference which was one of things that have been called for. Of course there's no there's no guarantee that that would have worked either. I mean so far everything seems to have failed so. So this international climate conference is something that probably wouldn't have worked either. It frankly seems like a gigantic ball of

tangled John that nobody will ever be able to set straight. That's a pretty pessimistic statement but it seems like it's kind of based on on on 50 years of history so far. Also I think the United States now is not paying as much attention to it as it once was. Certainly the the war on terrorism understandably takes most of the attention of the United States. Plus given the fact that the Bush administration came into office saying that this was essentially something for the people in the Middle East. But in the year 2002 President Bush also said more on more than one occasion that he is in favor of the two state policy something that whether or not people were sure about that they can be sure of it. Now did that have any effect. You know at the margin maybe. But the point is you know this is an excellent learning experience. This past year and what it has taught is that the United States not withstanding the fact that we are the world sort of sole superpower are not in a position to wave a magic wand over the Middle East and cause a workable lasting peace to be

created there. And you know this has been a tough realization for a lot of people who have had hoped that we have the capacity to do that. It's just not there yet. Looking back one of the things the Bush administration did manage to do is pull and pull the rug out from under Yasser Arafat. Absolutely. He has been marginalized. They're waiting to see a new generation of leadership on both sides before they do any kind of solution can occur. But a new generation of leadership on the Palestinian side as far as I can tell doesn't appear to have any significant difference in terms of its position then Yasser Arafat generation that's true before a new generation of leaders for a new leader could do what the leader of Hamas could do would be to say to call on their people to call on Islamic Jihad to call on the militants as as painful as it might be for them to call a moratorium on terror to call the moratorium and say let's give peace a chance and that will might be a Saddam like thing to do

and might be better done by someone like Arafat but Arafat has been so marginalized I mean he was under siege for almost three months and his and the United States just sort of looked the other way and said blamed him for every act of terrorism when he couldn't even hardly keep the plumbing running and his and his headquarters. And so that was what new leadership could could possibly do among the Palestinians that is make a magnanimous gesture and say we really want peace but there is such a intractable such a bloody situation. Seven hundred Palestinians dead 600 Israelis since since then defense minister Sharon almost stuck his thumb in the eye of the Palestinian people and also the United States has really undercut its authority in its ability to be perceived as a credible third party and that leaves because it is seen now more than ever as being just solely on the side of the Israelis and clearly it's always been that way and in practice and

policy but just even now in terms of image it's almost illegal for that a lot of opposition in the Middle East to a U.S. strike against Iraq has to do with the perception of the U.S. favoring of the Israelis in the Middle East dispute. Looking ahead to 2003 for one second does the U.S. have to mount a major public relations effort in the Arab world to gain the credibility of which you say it's already trying to do that. I mean two different radio and television broadcasts for example. I think it's going to be very difficult particularly if the United States does go to war against Iraq to overcome the negative feelings that have have been generated there because it's not like it was you know 10 years ago when or more when and when the United States went in to save Kuwait because you clearly don't have that kind of provocation. And many countries including countries like Canada for example don't think it's a good idea to go. So clearly the Arab world is somebody emerges wrong to Zippy's lip somebody earlier mentioned new leadership there's the new African Union which in part is based

on the concept of the European Union. But in large measure is intended to replace the Organization of African Unity as a more effective body. Foreign power which is the economic harm of it. And they're going to try to resolve some of the conflicts in places like Cote d'Ivoire in places like Nigeria and in other countries. So far though no success that made the OK you and I covered a lot of meetings and a lot of activities over the years was I think we can say the biggest thing is a League of Nations was it on the worldwide scale and the reason it failed is because a lot of the countries that were that were seemed to reach to it had no real belief that they were no real commitment to follow through on it and no real resources to do it. What's the difference with the African I mean what is the difference is that difference is that if there is a difference is that the only youth was formed immediately after after independence came into colonialism. We are talking now

about countries that have had their independence for for a generation or generation and a half. There is a there is across the continent in an attempt to restore democracy or to build democracy in the first place. Its a fledgling who is a fledgling movement its had a very very difficult time taking taking root for all sorts of complicated reasons to the extent that America that Africa moves toward democracy represent representative government. The the new organization has an opportunity to work and to succeed. To the extent that it remains bogged down in old fashioned one man one man rule that's the recipe for until you just asked what I hear Jack White saying is that this is an organization that has to have if you can't simply expect to tell Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe or somebody else in Cote d'Ivoire or somebody else in Nigeria what to do right off. That's true but I think it definitely has some some concrete plans. For example the way you was basically founded on this notion of non-intervention that one African country would not interfere

with that with the affairs of another. The African Union to the contrary says that if a if a country is practicing genocide for example then the African Union can step in and in fact it has plans to form an African Union Army. And it's interesting that that test today. French troops in Kosovo are clashing with rebels in a court of law. That is the kind of thing that perhaps if the African Union had an army maybe the African Union army would be there to kind of maintain peace itself so these as opposed to the former colonial power which I am a huge skeptic about it is something that goes a long way between GOLAZO lipos and with the lack of resources available to almost every African nation there are very very few African nations and everything kind of surplus and all they are going to have difficulty difficulty feeding themselves. Are some with this huge problem of the AIDS epidemic which is decimating the continent. You just go one thing after another. It's hard for me to see how much is desirable it would

be for them to do this. It's hard for me to see how they're actually going to turn some of these wonderful points. It seems that their initial emphasis is on the economic impact through through through the NEPAD organ. And I think that's that's good. Look I mean if you look at the European Union the one thing the European Union has advanced a political institution as it is one thing it hasn't figured out how to do is actually to put a rapid deployment force together and they want to do. Yeah we've got to get a lot of black troops. But but actually if you look at the origins of that today's European Union you've got the cold steel agreements I mean little economic agreements that were things that the people could agree on. Not withstanding the fact that they may have disagreed across a whole range of things that I think you know Joe's point about taking an interest in how you know in the quality of life in the government of your neighbor is probably a positive development also. That is intense and it is a unique part of their evolution because they did call

for transparency they're calling for democracy calling for having standards on human rights in their initial charter. The irony is that this union was launched by and the conference in Durban South Africa was paid for by Colonel Gadhafi in Libya fighting that problem primarily. I mean he paid personally for almost 25 of the entourages to attend and he was sort of he remains on the I guess Executive Council but then he was sort of boxed out of being that he had a conversation with the interim head of the African Union who said Be that as it may these leaders are not going to allow more more Kadafi to influence them simply because he has money. We will have nor will they be influenced by African-Americans who were absolutely or Africans from the diaspora. Well we'll have to see. Quick who was Marilyn's last Republican governor before Abitur. Beats me Spiro Agnew. Spiro Agnew we're going

to take a look at the Washington area politics in the year 2002 when we come back. 2002 was a year in which a popular mayor did not get on the primary ballot in the District of Columbia while in Maryland the candidate of the minority party won the governor's race and the candidate at least favored by the Prince Georges County Police is now their boss. For insight into this somewhat strange political year we turn to Adrian Washington of the Washington Times Askia Muhammad is still with us. Askia is Joe Davis who you are now looking at. And

somehow or the other. Mark Plotkin managed to sneak back into the room. We don't know how much love can also joins us now. The Tony Williams election snafu Adrian Washington. This guy had a big war chest big. I mean he was supposed to be a shoo in for mayor and then things began to fall apart. Well you know I always call him Teflon Tony because everything just kind of slips off of any other town in any other place he would not have gotten as far as he did. But I think as the head of the local Republican Party said he's been unmasked. Now that everybody saw he couldn't even get his name on the petition what with 2000 signatures. But in the end it all worked out for him. You know according to today's editorial in The Washington Post it would appear that this might not be over the editorial implies that the mayor might be trying to unseat a number of directions Steve calous who was originally appointed by Marion Barry on the board of elections who is an

honorable decent I can't say enough good things about him but he and the mayor said we asked him. Now look you're not going to retaliate against these he said before we were ahead of the story. And he said Oh no not me and then we asked him on Friday when they didn't want to go. They didn't tell me. He's not resubmitting counsel's name for renomination. So it's the old. Don't get angry get even thing. But the man will tell you he got 61 percent of the of the general election vote and he gets sixty eight percent of the write in and 91 percent. This is the guy who was the lifelong Democrat who is seriously considering not running as a write in in the Democratic primary and chickening out and running as an independent. But the last thing the board of elections think is comparable to the Reverend really good for losing his low number license. Nothing is more sure that I can take away my then you're somebody honest in all seriousness that the mayor had had a credible candidate against him

just one he may have. I don't know. I don't know Adrian I think well off I'll say it again because I think it's worthy would be well off economically comfortably secure white black people like him because the bar has been set very low for a mayor that's going to D.C.. Kevin Chavis and Johnny Barnes who thought about running are kicking themselves for having not submitted their petitions to be on the ballot. I'll tell you that whether or not he would have won against one of them on the ballot or not. That remains to be seen. But in this instance the mayor showed his political Achilles heel which is anything political might be he might be OK at governance. But as a politician he just doesn't get it. It seems to me I don't know if there is any long term effects of that whole election snuffles which you can say well I think it's going to be very difficult for Tony Williams to run for a third term. You know I think that I think that a number of things including his ineptness at politics. I think it's amazing that he got to number two. But as soon

as he gets in office for number two you have this whole health care crisis looming again with the situation with South without the South or the south. We'll get to that. Right. And so I think that's the kind of thing that can eventually really undermine Tony Williams Even though I agree with Mark that it's basically the more well-off people who are putting him in office and that crowd has its own health insurance and so it's not enough that is directly affected by the health care crisis in this town. But when you lump that together along with continuing sad state of education I just I just don't see it another time some people do say Joe that he will not complete a second term that he's interested in serving in the administration that isn't necessarily a Democratic sources are saying where are you that that he would actually leave because. Because he would get disillusioned with being mayor and he went something one higher up he said on our show that he's not going to do that but he's going to serve a full second term. And I agree with you after the second term I think he's gone.

But you do have to show the Irish how you made the point that the bar is set so low. He doesn't have to do anything but that you live in here and there. And if you look any party gets a close scrutiny to what happens in this administration both terms as you say health care education the police department. That's right. And the list his ethics he would not withstand this kind of scrutiny and any other pain as it is in that case. Let's stay with going down the list before we go to politics. And Marilyn let's start with the health care crisis. Joe David mentioned having to do with the bankruptcy of Doctors Hospital which is the owner of Greater South-Eastern the recent revelation just this week that se has not gotten its accreditation as a hospital. This is the centerpiece of the D.C. Health Care Alliance around which care for the poor is organized in Washington D.C.. Does this mean that the mirror is still not finding any kind of way out of this health care. No he has not found a way out of the healthcare crisis. Let's watch the dollars and see where the contracts end up going. By the time that this is all of this all started with the control board members push to close D.C. General

and not provide a centrally located public hospital which to have their whole health care system based. When you privatized a public function like public health care you are in for trouble in the beginning. David Catania that council member has been out in front on this. When ever you are doing any kind of private contracting with public dollars you really got to have some serious oversight and it never happened. We always said that was going to happen. States said 80000 people would be treated. Now they're saying twenty eight thousand people. This is a big problem for the mayor. This as Joe Davidson points out it could be a part of the Achilles heel. Well I don't think it hurts him politically. I really don't. I he he it hurts his his his public image. It hurts him. East to the river. But in terms of numbers it doesn't hurt him. But I tell you what he does pledge he pledges that some hospital either President hospital here one of the private

hospitals or some gifts from outside in terms of another big hospital conglomerate is going to take care and he pledges that there will be a hospital east of the reaching out of the Tooth Fairy I guess. Yes. I mean I don't mean to sound like Tony Bullock But I want in of fairness to say I will not allow there not to be a hospital Tony because the mayor's press secretary is right. But nevertheless as Adrian pointed out I mean he's closed D.C. General which had one of the best shock trauma unit in the area. Second only to Howard perhaps and Howard University Hospital. Better watch out because the influx of of known non-insured patients and the slow paying of the District government to compensate these places is sure to be a drag on Howard University Hospital as well. But then the the the concept of I mean the what he did to the D.C. General

Hospital is what he tried to do to the land grant college on Connecticut Avenue University the District of Columbia. The guy has no political skills. He may be able to govern he may be able to keep the well-off keep the budget balanced but he has no political skill. We haven't even mentioned Washington Hospital Center deciding to pull out of the alliance because it hasn't been getting paid. I mean these are like serious serious issues. And I think that it might not just be the health issue but when you add these other issues they talk about some of the other. Some of them that I mentioned education Adrian mentioned that the cops for example. I mean here's a place where the homicide closure rate goes down every year. You know what I mean what's happening with that. You know and it's I mean this is a serious issue I think if you remember you remember Tony Williams and all of them came in with the control board that they spent all this money on consulting fees telling us how we should run the government. And when Charles Ramsey came in on the Marion Barry. No. Charles Ramsey came in in that in that transition. And I think the first thing he said when he came in with I'm throwing out this playbook that

you all have spent six million dollars on and then he started his own thing and now he's saying oh I made a mistake. I should at de-centralized homicide. He sent them all out into the precinct remember what they were doing robberies go back and forth all the little things that you took away from of investigating homicides. Now he says let me put them back in the neighborhoods are still crime that there's not enough people here with the Federal with the since 9/11 the district's our police force has been doing much more federal crimes. Some people think Adrian that Charles Ramsey is the tough line guy because once he handles the demonstrators who come into town to demonstrate against the world bank and the IMF and of course he doesn't have any district residents feel that they're being protected from these quote unquote hooligans. This is this how they perceived the demonstrators. It seems like Charles Ramsey gets a pass. People in the neighborhood call him Mr. Silver time. That's not something I coined that he's very good at presenting himself and speaking in complete sentences something I

wish I could do. And and he presents a very good public image if you want to talk about comparisons comparing him to his predecessor Larry shows who is really the Keystone Cop. I mean so you have a question of you of a public a public posture. That's good. And compared to the fire chief. Right you know Randi few he stands out as somebody who is confident. But if you going to I here because I wonder if he used some homicide the police department having trouble with homicides. If the health care system is in crisis if as we have talked about the school the education systems can not have a cumulative effect. Tony Williams Well I think there's a larger question when he dies the death of a thousand cuts. We've we've we've seen that already. He can't even. There's no way to imagine he has a third term. I thought he was going to switch and become a Republican after his flirtation with with the association endorsement.

I don't see how it helps I flip to become a Republican for a reason because I was right. So but I think there's a larger question to be asked about the electorate and what do citizens hold their elected officials responsible for and I think it's just a big but you know nobody runs against them. And you know and let me say one one good thing about this city I have had two good experiences in a row at DMV one very very rare person. I've had two in a row in different years. Don't to remember that part of this is that quickly on education the budget for the city had to be cut by 323 million dollars so it could be balance the school the education system took a hit. But outside of that people are still dissatisfied that this hybrid board that was put together has not served the purpose for which it was put together. But I will say in defense of what the defense about them we all said that Peggy Cooper was not going to be very good in the job but she did hold the council's

feet to the fire. They presented a united front in trying to get their money. They got some of the money back from the council. And so and that and that and her her aggressiveness really paid off for the school system. Now having said that they have not done a good job of doing any other reforms that were started on the Arlene Ackerman that seemed to have been laid to waste. The one person who has been brought in is a chief of staff has resigned this week. As of this week or so who was essentially running the school system day to day. So there some real rocky road ahead for them. Even more so and that's going to have to be it on the school system I want to get back to Marilyn for a second because the Robert Ehrlich victory was against a candidate who was well financed who was the sitting lieutenant governor and who had the Kennedy name. What happened to kick. Eighty. Thousand I dare say 1966 last Republican governor. That was because it was a divisive Democratic primary. George your home is

your castle. Mahoney was the Democratic nominee and Spiro Agnew ran as a rock Rockefeller moderate. I mean to just go back into a time warp. Yes she had everything going for. And there was only one way she could lose and that was she did see herself as a terrible Diamond. She's a lovely sweet person but she wasn't ready for prime time and Erlick position in and and made himself seem like a moderate even though his voting record doesn't represent it. And he also confided that he raised far more money than he thought he would ever raise more money than she did 10 or 11 million dollars. And that was also the anti-glare you had a good point. That was something that she couldn't divest herself of her attachment with him. The Republicans did a great job of joining them. But know I think this may her show this may be one governor's race that shows the power of lieutenant governor candidate. I think Michael Steele really

softened airlocks image and there was a black man. And then meanwhile the Democrat chose a Republican military man. For her lieutenant governor. And that turned off a lot of black for 2008. That was of course the year the Washington area was struck with fear because of the sniper shootings. Now of course under arrest John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo who it turns out had been in the area for a while having come this way from the state of Washington and the lasting effects to that fear to those shootings which became an international story. Well it does lasting effect is what we now know that that can happen. I mean it is so hot that nobody imagined before. We now know that the federal government and local authorities can work together to try to solve a crime but we can always hope that the the suspects themselves will do something stupid to get themselves in because thank God they did that because I think that was really the tip of the iceberg. I mean the most scary thing was the articles that appeared before they were apprehended.

Concerned that this could be an al Qaeda terrorist threat the capriciousness. I mean how would paralyze because it could happen anywhere it can happen to anybody. There was no pattern and that this in some ways was a manifestation of the new age of terror that this was actually being planned and calculated in a methodical way rather than by two very obviously extremely unbalanced human beings that was in some ways no comfort to the families reassuring because I don't ever remember and I've been here since 1964. Fear of striking a whole place like it did. I think the most chilling part was the interview that John's wife did revealing that she feared that he was really stalking her and wanting to kill her and redeem their children as the grieving father. I mean this was obviously a very disturbed individual who had a very suspect relationship with the poor

disturbed child who was abandoned in his home in Antigua by his mother at age 14. So you had some some really. Spacey kind of people trying to carry out some really Extra-Terrestrial kind of activity in a terrible way. Anything you can say about the police work in this situation. But Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose to the attention of the nation well he's become somewhat of a hero and I frankly think it's misplaced. I mean you have 10 people dead 13 shot. I mean at what point would you say he's not a hero when he was 15 or 20 dead. I mean you know it just seems to me that it's. And also the criminal justice system maybe I'm afraid we're just about out of time and we did not succeed in bringing order to the world. But hopefully these ongoing discussions help you to make orderly decisions about your politics and about your life. Speaking of your life we hope it's a good one and that it will get better for you in 2003. Happy New Year. Stay well.

Goodnight