Evening Exchange; Black Erotica

Celebrate the spicy raunchy and often tender and touching world of black erotica. Up next an evening Exchange. Good evening and welcome to evening Xchange. I'm Kojo Nnamdi. Tonight we explore the world of black erotica. So now is a good time to make a decision about young children who might happen to be in the room. It is your parental decision to make but you might want to send them out and you might allow your children to watch that kind of thing. I don't know. There is a new anthology on the market it is entitled Black erotica and some of its contributors might surprise. Such as Alice Walker Marita Golden Chester Himes and into Zachy Shanghai. The book includes passages from books and poems. There's even a sexy astrology chart. Joining us tonight is one of the editors of black erotica. She is Miriam the cost will it's good to have you here. Thank you. Also with us

are two contributors to black erotica. Howard University professor françoise Fasth and writer Thomas Stanley good to have you all here. I have been carting this book around with me all weekend long and everywhere that I have gone when people have looked at the title of this book erotic noir black erotica they began to look at me suspiciously as if somehow they didn't know me as well as they thought that it is what is the response you're getting to black erotica. Well we've been getting a tremendous response. Books bookstores are selling out. People are calling trying to see how they can get the book. Young people are buying it. Old people are buying used blacks whites on weekends I call bookstores just to see what's selling and I don't identify myself. I may say one man told me this. Oh yes. I highly recommend it. And this is one of the major bookstores out of the closet so to speak is black erotica in this anthology. What made you decide to put it together. Tell our viewers the story

of how that happened. Well in 1988 I guess I got introduced to erotica in the U.S. found out about yellow silk. Ordered that and kind of got on an erotic hit list I got catalogs did things like Good Vibrations. Jeremy Aymara Yeah. Ordered her Rodek and other serious plays your Malani barback and all. And what concerned me was that black people were not represented and yet I felt that we were certainly erotic people. And I began to think in terms of African-American literature because I'm a professor of African-American literature and I thought of all these wonderful examples of erotic and I thought how tremendous to put it all together under one cover. And so I called Francoise I said can we use a title like critique now which is French. And she said Oh yes. And then I got in touch with Thomas Stanley and other writers in the Washington area and it just kind of took off what you have just heard is the cleaned up version of how this occurred. But there was an incident in a car on a highway involving you and two friends

who are also of. Tell us about that incident. Well actually it there's one friend Rosanne Bell who had written a book of pornography 10 years before that time and I had just met her and we were on our way from Memphis to Atlanta. And she'd been doing research on erotic blues lyrics and we were playing those on the tape and telling stories and swapping lies and having fun. So you know we say gosh this is so interesting you know why don't we just put it under one cover and expose people to share the joy of the. There was swapping sex stories or swapping lies and exaggerations françoise. How did you get involved with this project. When I had lunch I believe with me I'm one day and she said Do I have an exciting project. It's black erotica. I said well you know it sounds very interesting. And I by the way you wrote a few months ago something about Iraq this is in sub-Saharan Africa. Oh yes. You know let me see it etc. so I sent my article and she kept it edited it and now it's in the book. And in fact it was a challenge because as you know there is not too

much about this in sub-Saharan African cinema. Right. So I had to talk about that in a second. But when she first made the invitation at lunch were you in any way surprised or shocked by her interest in the topic. Yes I was because I knew her. You see she used to be in my chair at Howard University in the department of romance languages. However it was a predisposition already to that. So she was a very you know serious scholar and not that this is not the proof of a serious scholarship but I was really seeing her in the black Hispanic studies rather than black erotica. So I discovered a new facet of friends. What is a former minister of information for the Republic of New Africa. A well known and respectable black nationalist organization doing writing erotic literature for black.

But it's all in the same note. It's all about trying to help people to secure those resources that they need for liberation for revolution. And part of that is kind of reclaiming ownership of our erotic spirit of our very sensual sexual natures as human beings. And I had not had an opportunity to meet Miriam actually until the reading that sort of launched the book here in the city. And you know I guess you could call my contribution to the book one of the underground elements in it. But you know I was happy to be a part of the quiet underground. Well I mean I use language that for reasons of you know. Broader social mores and FCC regulations that we can't exactly get into in the book the title of my piece was put your tongue in it and I'll just leave that to the viewers imagination and indeed Miriam writes in the introduction that as you say put your tongue in it. That's the book so to speak. I thought that was an appropriate phrase with which to go. Move from the introduction into the body of the book.

How is it rattus as distinct from pornography. Well that question does keep coming up keeps coming up right. Erotic schism is artistic it's aesthetic. It involves the whole person. And I think Thomas is absolutely right in terms of our trying to recreate this holistic spirit that was a part of our African ancestry in which the body and the Spirit are not disconnected. I think it's Western civilization that has kind of dichotomize the human being. And so we're trying to go back to the original source of that life force that animates all of us and which finds expression in sensuality eroticism creativity writing etc. music dance. It's a part of what animates us. How about pornography. Pornography is commercial dehumanizes it demeans it objectifies it is purely physical carnal without any sort of sensuality no

involvement of feelings. That's what I see françoise. Were you ever did you ever fear that having a contribution to a book such as this could have someone accuse you of spreading pornography. Really I thought that most of the pieces however would be the studies of what this is an academic research so that you would have you know actually pieces by people which is even more interesting. So you have also a piece that is similar to mine about what this is in Caribbean Clipsal by who was also at George Mason University. He is George Mason. Yes. So I didn't know exactly what I go into that I'm glad I did. Well there's a lot of people got a lot of pieces in this book well as a matter of speaking. Thomas any fear on your part that you would be seen by people as spreading some kind of porn pornography or that fear for say.

I mean it never really crossed my mind. I think that you know the work speaks for itself in terms of how it's organized and why the various pieces were included and the general direction of the work. And you know there's always going to be people who will choose to draw the line between pornography and erotica you know here versus there. So you have to live with that. Let me read a little bit of Audrey Lord uses of the erotic the erotic power. Basic piece. She says the erotic is a resource within each of us that lies in a deeply female and spiritual plane firmly rooted in the power of our unexpressed or unrecognized feelings. She then goes on to explain why it is that men for so long have sought to suppress erotic cism in women because it is a source of power. What I find interesting is she says that it's a resource within each of us that lies in a deeply female and spiritual plane. Why is that. I'll try to take everything this because well I would. That's a wonderful thing by the way and it's sort of the core of what we were trying to do.

I don't think I'd limit it to the female. I think it's a part of the human element in us. But I think she's eminently correct in that it's that creative force within us. I mean really I think her ideas really are very much in concert with with our concept in planning the book. I might mention that unlike other works of erotica. This is a collection of academic pieces as well as creative pieces and Francoise essays an example of that. There's a piece by Charles blocks and it traces the history of eroticism in African-American culture. There's a piece on eroticism are taboo subjects in African-American literature. There's Audrey Lord's peace et cetera. So we attempted to come up with pieces that represent the spectrum of our literature. Let's talk about fossils is this for a second because I was surprised at how little you erotic a system is in the film of subsaharan Africa. As you pointed

it out were you. Yes. Because you had to also consider the fact that Africans are born that years ago essentially contains films with a social political orientation and people like Heideggerian. Can Vote for instance of that type of ideology which denounces violence and sex as a commercial product to be used in that type of independent production. Then of course you have the importance of collective life in African societies and individual emotions are not that important because you have to be part of an entity or a collective body. I miss it. Now the last part of course is the religious impact of Islam in various countries such as Middle East and the God et cetera where you see many films coming out from those countries but they don't have it right this. This seems to be taboo. And I think that Christianity and Islam in Africa have to be toned down is in film. We're going to ask Miriam to read in a little while but she is selecting something to read how do you

feel about the notion that a lot of black people are very sensitive to us portraying our sexuality because of the stereotypes associated with black sexuality. Yeah I think you know traditionally that that African-Americans can be very conservative on issues of social mores. And I think if you look at the root causes for that obviously the only thing worse than being black in a world dominated by white supremacy is to distinguish yourself by being black in a different sort of way. And you know when you get out on a limb as far as dealing with issues of sexuality you put yourself at risk for yourself at risk individual and perhaps you know the collective has a sense of feeling at risk. I think what's beautiful about the project is that here is an opportunity in a social climate where you know we have so many reasons to feel anxious about sex. We have a virus that is you know slang you know so many many beautiful valuable young people we have sexual violence

existing at an epidemic level we have the abuse of children we have all of these things that are taking away from our ability to take ownership and be empowered in our sexuality. And I think this work helps to kind of counter that. It certainly would appear that way. Maria are you ready to read. Yes I'd like to read a piece that I like very much it's called insatiable by Opal Palmer decent who's a Jamaican writer. OK this has got to stop. Not the passion us not being able to resist each other the endless craving in my groin the hunger of my lips to taste you the pull of my arms to wrap you to me. This has got to stop. Not the unquenchable desire the tongue massaging flesh the arms that caress and Enfold But the interruption of DAYBREAK the demands of work the intrusion of friends all those petty things that steal us from each other temper our rhythm wipe our wetness. That's what has got to stop.

Beautiful. We'll take a short break right now for me to mop my brow here but I'll take your phone calls right after this break when we come back so stay with us. Right.

Really. I didn't hear the first part of the story. You. Book. I'm.

Back. We are here with the editor of the new anthology black erotica and two of the contributors to that book Howard University professor françoise feth and writer Thomas Tandi the editor of course Miriam DeCosta Willis. I'd like to read a contribution by Ethelbert Miller and to tell our viewers a lot of the stuff is fairly explicit as Thomas pointed out because of FCC regulations you won't be hearing anything profane on this show. But it is fairly explicit So if you're just joining us and our children around you might want to make your own decision about what to do about your children. That's a poem and he couldn't be here this evening. It's called birds so I assume he won't mind my reading near Lake Washington. The afternoon turns warm with the sun of early spring. Your face your arms your legs turning in your bed. Discover mine along the lake birds stare at the windows of our house. I learned to swim in the weapons of you but there was a great pool beautiful and didn't know that if a

bird could write you write it like this. Was this a discovery for you and a lot of ways because a lot of the people that you talked to this was the first time they had ever written anything erotic and they themselves seemed a bit surprised when you asked them to do it right. You know I think it's because it writers system is something that often is divorced from the rest of life you know. And so people were writing love poetry or whatever but were not thinking of it as as being erotic. So for me it was a discovery as a result of the book. There are several people now who are doing their own collections of erotica with their poetry or their plays or whatever. Fascinating stuff you said Maria golden said. I don't think I've ever written anything erotic and then when she thought of back I thought back up from a passage from one of her books. Oh yeah I guess fairly right. And I think a lot of people have discovered that lady I want to go to the telephone so our viewers can participate in this discussion. Caller It's your turn you're on the air. Go ahead please. Yes I'm listening to your program I don't argue with this point caller so it may be something in your telephone.

Let's try that again. Caller are you there. Yes I'm here. Can you hear me. No we can't hear the call. Where is happening right. I can see that on our caller are you there. Go ahead. Yes. I'm still here. How about you. Go ahead. Go ahead. Right now I can you hear me. Yes I can hear you. Yes I can hear him many times I've heard the expression that a mind is a terrible thing to waste. I've come to the conclusion that an educated mind is worse to waste. It's really disheartening to see a group of intellectual people sitting here and talking about peep show subjects. What are they trying to do train a new group of McDonald's. You don't need black erotica but those people devote their mind then to something more substantial. Somebody at Howard University helped them find a new owner and right to follow OK. Thank you very much. Our caller objects to people with your academic and intellectual

qualifications sitting here talking about sex. He says You've heard the term a mind is a terrible thing to waste especially such educated minds talking about such a topic. He is surprised that Howard University is producing professors such as this. How would you respond I respond to that. Yes. You know it's funny I watch you program it always seems like it's that first caller comes out of the church. Yes. Look I think that one of the things that hasn't been dealt with here is that sex is almost a language system a semantics system that's capable for expressing a lot of facts about existence our existence as human beings that go beyond simply ourselves and intimacy and romance et cetera. It deals with attractions repulsions valences it deals with things that get to the very core of our being. My particular piece put your tongue in it. It really wasn't about sex per se it was about history that you sex sexual power sexual dysfunction as metaphors for how we engage with the

historical process kind of begging the question is making love similar to making history. So I think the caller and anyone that might have a similar kind of gut response needs to take maybe a broader look at what is in conflict. Does the caller's question say about our culture the notion that people thinking and writing about erotic things is a waste of your mind. Yes. I don't I don't agree with that type of statement. I hope I was to keep my job with how this gentleman called then but in fact I think I put my mind to use a very good use in analyzing a sub-Saharan African cinema and explaining why from a cultural standpoint it is very developed in the art form and why in one or two or three particular films that were very influenced by Western canons you could find those scenes. So my investigation was very academic based on the analytical skills I believe and I don't have anything to blush for.

Well you know I really have problems with with the attempt to divorce sexuality from who we are as people we are whole human beings. Now just looking at the product here a lot of work went into this book. I have been working on it since 1988 and I understand. I mean all of my energies my creativity my intellect my scholarship went into the book and I'm very proud of it. You know I mean I'm up for tenure and this book went into my tenure committee. You know it's a product of African-American literature that in that case you should tell us a little bit about the process of editing this book because it took you a very long time. And according to Reginald at one point it was difficult to figure out what was erotic and what was pornographic. We had over 80 contributors five translators the best African and African-American and Caribbean and European American writers in the

world. We have writers from South America the Caribbean Zimbabwe France Canada etc. lesbians gays heterosexuals young people old people one of the nicest bones is by Dennis Brutus who must be in his 60s who feels he has a poem called 666. But as long as lust flames and the whatever right is it's wonderful. It's a reclamation of our African sensibilities. We'll talk a little bit more about the cultural aspects of it but let me get back to the telephone. It's your turn call you're on the air go ahead please. Good evening. So Jim I kind of felt just a little bit like your first caller when I first heard the program on. I thought I was going to be offended by the material but once because the will is read that piece I said oh my God I've written stuff like this myself. This is not there's nothing wrong with it. I think we're just I don't know maybe we have to be educated but sometimes we're put off at first with things that are Rodek because of the fine line

between the Vatican pornography and being a Christian myself. I thought that you know it was going to be something that was really way out there something I would be offended by. But just from the piece that you read and what you have been saying in the general conversation here I think it's something I go out and purchase. Interesting interesting. Anyone care to comment on that. I didn't hear all of the questions all of it but the question that she was saying that Vince and we started out to discuss this. Said Well what is this. And she was turned off by it but as she has listened to this discussion and heard some of our readings she realizes that this could be very interesting. I'm wondering to what extent that reaction has come. I think basically if you can comment on it. People don't make the distinction between pornography and sexuality and processes. And I think what is his message going to be something very tactful very tasteful very that much left to the imagination and very beautiful and I don't think what is offensive in Iraq is I think it's basically we are in a society that is very repressive in

terms of sexual imagination or practices. If you go to Latin countries for instance there is a quite a different attitude in terms of Iraq is people speak about it on a daily basis they make puns about the sexual connotations et cetera et cetera. And there's nothing taboo about it. I think it's this puritanical Anglo-Saxon society that represses those types of things and it prevents the human being from blossoming in its entirety. Back to the telephone phone it's your turn. Caller you're on the air. Go ahead please. Yes I agree with the first caller. I think we're happy too much too many of the ways and ideas of why we like and we are beautiful people and we don't have to stoop to that. If you want to think of that in your own mind discuss it with your privacy and privacy with your own family. OK. But you know we don't need it. People don't.

Why do I say. And in all probability I'll bet if you if I have one in those two women you have a problem with say that they are part white you know and they are acting part white. Well we don't know that the black white family you know we have Cojo we just hasn't mean allow me to interrupt. Do you find a discussion of black neuroticism embarrassing. I just don't think. Yes I do. I just don't think Yes sir. OK. I don't think OK I've got to allow our panelists to respond to you. You know just a piece of that. Yes. Yeah. I you know it's interesting it's like the second call along those lines and I think that you know a certain number of people that have that mindset already it's crystallized. You know in a sense they're lost. But if you look at our tradition individually is as one people of the many people that make up the world

we've always dealt in a very honest and straightforward way with just how important sexuality is and a part of a healthy life. And if you look at the Indian Vedic tradition they have a whole text the Kama Sutra that is dedicated to a very explicit discussion of how to achieve enlightenment through sexual fulfillment. Well the caller probably reflects the opinion of a lot of our peers on this how. And that's the other aspect of the culture I wanted to get. Let me just take that up a little bit. I'm a mother of four and a grandmother of four and my children are so excited about this book what has happened to me as a mature person. And those of us who were editors represent three different decades. I'm 57 one was 46. One is 36 etc.. One was male. The other two of us are female. It has opened me up in so many ways that I'm able to dialogue with my children. I'm up. I'm a product of the very Victorian puritanical tradition. So this was a very

liberating experience for me. I'm a feminist and you know I felt that I should be open in all areas of my life so it was a personal opening up for me. And I think other people are having the same you will observe that we told our viewers that if there were children in the room they would want to make their own decision. How do you feel about children's exposure to erotic literature and at what age. Well I have a nine year old grandson and there they are. There are selections here poems and whatnot that I could read to him and we could use this as a basis for discussing his sexuality his feelings. You know it's it's it's that there's been so much silence in our community and so much fear about being articulate and being open you know. And I see this as working against that. And it's in all areas it's not just sexuality that's the truth. Let's go back to the telephone caller. Go ahead please. Yeah. Could you I just want to say that I think a lot of people should open themselves up and really read the book first of

all there's a lot of writers in there that are very well not very I know what I know and I think that this anthology gives us opens us up to a lot of other writers that are not out there. Everyone's reading like for example I'm on a train or someone reading Terry McMillan wrote this anthology. A lot of other comedies out there are African-American writers up to so many writers I was in a bookstore and right the second column called I'm a Christian but I found it very tasteful I didn't find it pornographic and I thought the writings were very good and I just want to commend all the writers and the editor on this. And I think that we as African-Americans should open ourselves up and we need to be exposed to so many good writers were exposed to me repeat writers and most blacks they could maybe give me to European writers probably right now but I couldn't give you the name of 10 African-American writers. OK. Thanks so much. It sure does. It gives you the famous that it gives you the not so famous writers who have contributed to this topic. What I find of interest and again on the cultural issue is how

it's how we want to keep our children away from sexual ideas. Is that ultimately damaging. Am I the only parent here. I have to I can speak as a parent. I think that you make choices you make choices based on the child's ability to internalize something that they understand something that they can make sense of. I mean Freud is not the only observer that has noted that there are sexual ideas going on in the minds of children and we you know we deny that. You know it's a reality. And this book Black erotica erotic There's also a reality and we're very glad to have editors and contributors here with us. Mary is going to stay with us. Don't go away. When we come back we'll have sex therapist to discuss sex in the 90s. Stay with us. We're back with Miriam to costa Wilson editor of Black erotica. That's a new anthology and we're joined in this

segment by doctors Margaret and Julia Fogle who are both a sex therapist. They're also the founders of the human sexuality Institute. Welcome to both of you. I was just looking at next week's edition of Newsweek magazine which has a picture of Madonna on the cover advertising her new book and the article in Newsweek magazine says erotica not just black erotic that is really out of the closet in America and they blame it on everything from the recession to the emergence of the AIDS virus. They are saying that people cannot apparently do it as freely as they were. They are now looking at it a lot more. Is this true. Yes I think it is true up to a point. In a sense I think the so called sexual revolution of talking about it and bringing it out in the open is healthy up to a point. But it gets distorted a great deal like the Barbara I was just thinking as I was watching the first part of

this show that we've lost our reverence for sexuality and now you're bringing it back. I'm so delighted to hear that the lovely lovely lyrics and things that you've brought to this book and I'm going to rush right out by you. Do you think that the reason we have lost our reverence for sexuality is because of how sexuality has been commercialized to the point where we no longer look on it with reverence. Well that's part of it. But I think the worst part of it was the repression and the distortion through the repression and then it has to burst out like a volcano and it comes out distorted. And that's where it's not very. If it doesn't arouse reverence for a volcano is not a very rare thing. Well I think it's a phase that it's going through which like most anything else that has been repressed and been subjugated and sexuality you know

we are here because of sex as if we were born because of sex. And there's a spirituality involved in sex. There's an intimacy that is lost entirely I think. But it's I suppose necessary advertisement of sexuality. It's a phase a good phase in a way but it has it's harmful. It's not a simple subject. It certainly isn't. And the dividing lines are very difficult to distinguish. It depends on whom you talk to. Miriam I'm just wondering how you feel about the commercial use of sex and television and movies in advertising today is that a good thing or is it a bad thing. And where does your book fall in that. Well the commercialization the basis that there's no doubt about it. And I think the spirit you know when you ask me the difference between pornography and erotica I think it is this combination of the physical the intellectual and the spiritual and I think we've gotten away from that. Let me just add one thing because people always want to know you know what

what follows after this. And you know I'm not a scientist at all and a literary person. And what we're hoping will come out of this is scientific studies of black sexuality. There have not been any. We were not included in the Kinsey Report. We were not a part of the Masters and Johnson report in any numbers. And so there are all these misconceptions there are all these stereotypes about black sexuality and black people. And the reality is very different from what is perceived. Well if the commercialization of sexuality debases it to what extent does our increased exposure to sexuality as merely a physical phenomenon that doesn't include the intellectual and spiritual spiritual aspects. To what extent does that kind of thing that we see on television and in movies constantly continue to cause us to distort what sexuality really is. Well first of all I don't think there's any difference between blacks and whites and sexuality. We're all human beings and may be a little cultural

difference. But basically sexuality is a spiritual intimate much more intimate than two bodies together. And I'm sure there's lustful and there should be lustful ness but it must be. For instance if we get cases of an orgasm me or we get cases of premature ejaculation we get cases of retarded ejaculation low sex desire and sex therapist. So as a psychiatrist we have to delve into this. But when people come to us for the act. But beneath that element of the Act there's pain and then these people we try to get into the spirituality of what sexuality is. And there's basically no difference between blacks and anyone else. I think there's a cultural perhaps. Let's get to the telephone it's your turn call you on the air go ahead please. Good evening Cojo. I often like to say good evening to your guest and my comment is really just I can't. It just won't leave my mind. The first caller's comment

and I feel that this is very important what these conditions have done in putting out this text because as a black male growing up Section 6 has always been taboo. And it's it's not something that was discussed in the family open. And for me to be able to go out in a text be available like this where I can explore my own sexual identity as a young As a young male growing up into a sexual dysfunctional society in so many ways. I think I think that it's important to have that. And that's that's what I just really felt the need to call it. So I think this book is very important and I'd like to know where is where the book can be purchased any books to any bookstore in the Washington area. You can find the book. Our last caller's question. Is it because of the repression. Is it because he referred to the society as a sexually dysfunctional society mostly. Is it because of the repression the fact that these

subjects were taboo and could not be discussed. Do most of the people who come to see you come to see you and you discover that repression had something to do with the problems that they have. I would say everybody that has a sex problem has either been abused sexually an inappropriate age are they have been terribly repressed through lack of communication about it or through looking on sex as something degrading and dirty and all the other things that many children have been raised with you and I were raised that way. And but I feel that repression does make it erupt in an undesirable ways. Back to the telephone I've got a question to go with that but I want to give our callers a chance to turn you're on the air go ahead please. Hi. I'd like to make a comment to the first caller.

Yes the Bible is considered to be right out of the sea or a divinely inspired book. Yet if you read songs of Solomon you would think that it is an erotic book. It depends on the aspect or the maturity of the person is the person is mature enough he will see something mature in the expression of love that is pictured there as in the works of these people in the book by really. So I just see that the person is not mature enough and that you know need a little bit of an eye opener. Thank you very much. To what extent does it help people who come to you with problems to read Iraq erotic literature. I think it would be very helpful as a beginning of their own problems to understand that they're not the only ones who are having problems. And I think the book I've not read the book but I think from what I heard and the

television program I think it's an excellent book. Oh yes there was a description of people who have problems in the book. That's for sure. I follow that up with something one of our contributors is very well known Caribbean writer named Beryl. Beryl Gill I don't think there's a psychotherapist in London with a medical degree and she wrote me a letter and said she started writing erotic as a means to reach her patients who were primarily poor black West Indian women living in England. I've since gotten a letter from her to two or three days ago she's a widow in her 60s and she said I love the book I read and read and read and read and I could kill myself because I didn't enjoy sex. And she said my husband must have been something of a twit. I don't believe that sex was something 30 something hidden something not to find joy in. Well I'm certainly going to recommend that they read this kind of erotica because I was just enchanted with it. Well still I read before that Gilroy has a poem in there about her parents as a matter of fact falling off the bed and falling all the way into into the front yard.

Well it's a real problem when people come to to us as a sex therapist as a psychologist or psychiatrist. They're hurting. And they may not be aware of the spiritual aspect of the intimacy that sex really should be to them and it is their job to help them understand that this is fine to be lustful as long as you're giving and you're receiving. It isn't just a question of something apart from the emotion of any human being. It's a tremendous intimacy involved in part of being a human being and it takes a little education to some of our patients back to the telephone you're on the caller. Go ahead please. Yeah I'm going to congratulate Mr. Kostunica on the book. I bought the book about a block and a half ago and I think that we as black people need to understand that you know this might be a difference between having sex and making love. You can make love making love usually always involves sex. But

there's no way of making love. And I think erotica is somewhat the same way. Most sex involves eroticism but eroticism doesn't have to always involve an extra course in sex and arm. I think that that needs to be pointed out. And in this book on erotica not only helps you helps us black to understand different aspects of black folks equality but it also helps us to understand the different aspects of eroticism even in dealing with one's own sexuality. It can make one feel more comfortable with being with thoughts of sex. Indeed I suspect Miriam could tell us about some of the pieces in the book that have to do with phone sex. So somebody has to give great phone to remarks like that and I say that because you guys wanted the book to be fun. And indeed it is that's an aspect of it that we haven't talked about before talk about some of it is very lyrical very beautiful that kind of thing you would want to read to your lover other

others are just very funny. There's a piece called dildoe by Tori Derek who lives in Potomac wonderful poet and she wrote this just really funny piece you know about ordering a dildo through the catalog and then what would happen if I die my mother comes to visit and she finds this what will happen if her husband finds it and you'll feel inadequate. So it's really I mean there are all kinds of tomes there's a serious intellectual there's the lyrical very beautiful and the fun and the raunchy you need to tell our viewers again where this book can be obtained. We're getting a lot of calls all of the major bookstores Vertigo on Connecticut Avenue gave us a nice book signing but crown and all of the major chains and it all of the major chains in the Washington area that answers many questions let's go back to the telephone caller you're on the air. Go ahead please. Yes. First of all I'd like to congratulate the panel to see that black intellectuals finally addressing the problems that are basic to all mankind and we all know that man has two basic drives the Sex and the stomach

and these basic drive lead to the other feelings. He could feel anything Joy. And I found the readings very enlightening and open honest. And it's about time that we address these basic issues. I know we were on the forefront of sexual abuse and many other things that are in the news these days. But this is a wonderful feeling for me to see that we are finally getting down to the real issues. That is a concern that we must address people and feminists who argue that pornography helps to contribute to rape through the demeaning of women. But feminists like Miriam on the other hand who find erotica more uplifting but you will be told by people as our caller implied that bill now that we have all of these problems of rape and sexual abuse in society now is not a good time necessarily to be writing about erotica.

How would you not agree. I do. Absolutely not. I think this is the time for rape and this kind of thing that you're speaking of does not happen because of a book that's written the basis of these pathological sexuality acts based on childhood based on much deeper problems than just a book or the egg or what is happening in terms of the sexual so-called revolution that is happening in terms of talking about it. But this is the way we want sex to come out as a whole person as the energy that is creative and beautiful and really art. This book is full of art house and it's real creative work and choreography it all. How significant is that on the first day of its American release. Madonna's book at $50 a copy called Sex sold like a hundred fifty thousand copies in the first day.

How significant is that significant that people need to know something about it isn't that we are beyond the time where people now sneak around to the back shelves of stores and buy erotic literature or the experience of Miriam had of going to a library of going to a library and seeing all of these titles available and then nothing was on the shelves. She went to a librarian who looked at her suspiciously went downstairs and found all of the books that even today rodded books in public libraries across the United States are hitting home. Well I think this Madonna episode is something that it almost had to happen as Margaret says all of this repression and it's a phase I think we're going through. I hope but I really think so. Otherwise how could these repressions ever get out again as you say the Christianity of Muslims. It's been repressed it's been denied. You're not supposed to have sexual feelings in spite of the fact that as I said before we're here because you haven't had sex.

Well I looked out is be still rather than as human. That's the problem because the intellectual and spiritual aspects of it not only does it if they don't bring it out in a spiritual way and in a beautiful way in the artistic way then they are of the steel and they're the it it's just it's just not balanced. Back to the telephone call you're on the air. Go ahead please. Hi. My name is Nicole Tatum and I'm an artist a poet and I'm not a saint. OK. I like I praise these people that are on TV today because I think they're doing a good thing in exposing you know us for our whole sex. So because it's been ignored for too long. And I also want to know whether or not any of the researchers did any work in northeastern Africa or address the problem of female circumcision. And also you know I had another question.

OK well let's stay with them for a while. The problem of female circumcision highlighted in Alice Walker's recent novel in which she talked about it as another way of repressing women's sexuality. Anyone care to comment on that. Well we didn't deal with that specifically. I think we were not really focusing on sexual aberrations and I might add one thing. We we tried to give the broad range of sexual expression. But one thing that the three of us editors did not want to endorse was the connection between sex and violence and so S-M is not in this book at all. And that was a personal. I know some people find that exciting but I think sex and violence have been tied too much together in films and in the on TV. How about S&M doctors. How about sadomasochism as a fantasy practice that turns some people off. It's a little pathological it's not within normal phases. Almost anything sexual that has a spiritual values perfectly all right is this nothing.

But when it comes to violence when it comes to that is the major Kusum sadism you're reaching a point beyond which I think sexuality that you speak of an aberration is thinking of pathology and that we do not consider within the normal stages of human sexuality and erotica. Ok that's cool. It's frustrating. If it's degrading to any person participating then we don't recommend it. Back to the telephone you're on the air. Caller go ahead please. Oh this is Furhman hitting. I'm calling congratulate Dr. Miriam Well this a very fine book. And of course I know that she herself was exemplary. I've heard lots of calls and most of the callers talked about the intellectual value. I guess my comment is that the reading is enjoyable. They did address as a form of self-expression much as dance stuff. I find it interesting that people who enjoy dance with the self-limited form can be critical of the

book in print. Final note how do you always top your material. But I've never heard you wrote a book page by page like today but. I liked it. What could I say it was a very fun book to read. Very enjoyable reading. He's a former Memphian. And we're delighted that out of the Deep South which is so conservative and so traditional and so much a part of the Bible Belt in the black belt that Memphians produced this work we try Herman we forgot to mention one of the most interesting parts of this book and that's the part with the astrological signs that describe what your sexual proclivities might be and I think Miriam is getting ready to read one part of that whole compiled that part for you Thelma Balfour she now was doing parties at $100 an evening. So excited about the horoscopes. Here's one for Gemini the twins. The sign at the twins means two distinct personalities. So the wonderful man or woman that you had

sex with last week may be a different person the next beware you may be taken for a ride. But then again you may enjoy the trip. This kind of stuff I think every individual must work his all his or her own sexuality or as an individual. It's very difficult to generalize how one should feel no one should know it. And it becomes a problem when people come into therapy. We cannot generalize. We've got to go into their background and they must work this out so that they are comfortable with whatever erotic mannerisms that they want to enhance and it becomes a very individual thing. I repeat that over and over to become an intimate relationship with your partner. I'd like to say something about the human mind that when I'm doing therapy I look for words for language that appeals to the person I'm

talking to and if they're in chanted and turned on by by astrology I'm delighted to talk about astrological sides with the vision of what they do. I personally are very fascinated with the goddesses of the and they archetype all idea of the sweep of human evolution and so forth that really turns me on. But every person has his own preferences and things that energize them. As the French say shackle us. So to each his own. Was it. Different strokes for different strokes for different folks. You know we joke about it but it's extremely important to individualize this for individually extremely bored. The name of the book Black erotica It's an anthology available in any of your major Washington area bookstores. We will take a short break and then we'll be right back. And.

A special thank you to Miriam the cost of Willis and her colleagues for compiling this anthology a lot of people will undoubtedly find it useful. We also have to say another special thank you and I want to thank Dr. Patricia weapon. She is a Bethesda based psychologist for helping her help in booking tonight's program. Also we want to thank our panel and of course you for joining us for all of us here to all of you good night.