Evening Exchange; Prince County Police Community Relations, Weekly News Analysis, Financial Planning & Retirement Plans

Iraq says yes to U.N. inspectors President Bush says. Not good enough. Too early to start saving for retirement. Think again. And the blame game police community relations in Prince George's County all next an evening exchange. Good evening and welcome to evening exchange I am Kojo Nandi. They just held an election in Prince George's County and nobody came well. A lot of people came but nobody came. It seems to vote for the good news which according to county executive Wayne Curry is that this is still the most affluent majority black county in these United States. Rather the primary race for the county's top position seemed to turn on

the relationship between Prince George's County Police and segments of the African-American community. While it must be pointed out that some 60 percent of the voters did not vote for Democratic Party primary winner Jack Johnson. His tenure as state's attorney has been punctuated by prosecutions of police officers all unsuccessful and clashes with the county's Fraternal Order of Police. But in fairness to Mr. JOHNSON It should also be pointed out that the Prince George's County Police Department is the target of several federal civil rights investigations. Is this just a blemish on an otherwise beautiful picture or an indication of deep seated problems in Prince George's County. Joining me to discuss this matter Edith hole is president of the Prince George's County branch of the end. Good to have you here. And Mark Spencer is Prince George's County deputy state's attorney Mark Spencer good to have you here all things go. Nice to be here. Is this a blemish on an otherwise beautiful picture is life in Prince George's County in general. Very very good. Or

is the state of police community relations in Prince George's County causing a significant disruption of the pleasantness of life in Prince George's County. I think this is a still shot of an evolving County. This is just a snapshot in time and there are those who perceive that snapshot to reflect the best of Prince George's County and there are those whose experience helps them to see that it's that snapshot as the worst of Prince George's County. But it is a evolving situation. Well the end of sleepy has always been on the forefront of complaints of police misconduct and police brutality so you are on the forefront of those in Prince George's County also. How serious is it. We did start in 1998. We started to actually collect data on complaints and the numbers were so high that it prompted us to begin dialogue with the then Chief John

Farrell. The response wasn't what we hoped to be and the environment was one that said leave the police alone. And so it wasn't until we worked with our Washington bureau and met with Bill Lann Lee and requested the extension of the investigation in Prince George's County from Canine to pattern and practice of the entire force on own abuse that we were able to kind of get people's attention that there were issues that really needed to confront and it wasn't just the state's attorney going after the police but this was us this Demick problem that needed some immediate address. Bell alley of course being then the assistant attorney general for civil rights. Mark Spencer to you I'd like to get a kind of. Understand of the atmosphere in which you operate as deputy state's attorney in Prince George's County because you are responsible along with the state's attorney for prosecuting the cases that police

bring to you. At what point in your tenure did it become apparent to you that the problem that Edith just talked about really is a serious problem. Well let me first say that a Prince George's County product I grew up in Prince George's County I'm the sixth generation of my family going back to slavery in Prince George's County. And so I have an interesting perspective growing up in the county then becoming the deputy state's attorney and a decision maker and a person who. You know is a participant in reviewing allegations of police misconduct and brutality. The reality is is that we have significant problems. With having grown up in Prince George's County having been a part of a family that's been in the county for six generations when people come to you and say What's wrong now in Prince George's County. Wasn't there a time when police African-American community relations in Prince George's County were really good.

I think this part of the mythology at least in my experience. And I'm 43 years old that time has never existed in my reality. Perhaps in other people's perceptions. And I do think that it is important to understand that the Prince George's County that I began my life in looks nothing like the Prince George's County of today. You know we've gone from being a relatively small minority to in a relatively rural county exactly to a fully ex-urban jurisdiction with big city crime problems with more than 70 percent of the population being African-American and becoming increasingly diverse with people of color. And so the new immigrants if you will the new residents I don't think have the same perspective as many indigenous people. But even with that. The consistency of complaints that we see from citizens

indicates a long standing a cultural problem within our police department. What is the nature of this cultural problem one would tend to assume that when we elected or when Prince George's County elected an African-American county executive and an African-American state's attorney that there was a significant cultural change going on. But it seems as if that cultural change has not yet significantly affected police African-American community relations. What is the culture we're talking. Well you have to understand that the police that's a completely different culture from the community and where we do have the influence of new leaders who are African-American and some that are culturally sensitive. We still have a police culture that comes from an era that believes in. A kind of cowboy a Gestapo kind of treatment of citizens that their citizens had to be controlled and that police

work is about enforcement and not community service. And so we're at a point where we're trying to help our department understand that the community does not accept that kind of policing and that we see them as being protectors of the community and and keepers of the peace not Gestapo officers that come in and whip us into shape. And so we're really going through a transition there. But Mark Spencer you talked about how the county has changed over the years. And yes it is now a majority of American African-American Yes it is a more affluent county that would work than it was in the days when you were growing up. But it's no longer a rule. It's a really suburban county with a lot of major urban problems and the police in their defense would say look there are bad guys out here. There are guys who threaten our very existence here and we have to show them that we intend to control crime in this community.

What's wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with that and if you look across the country in jurisdictions of similar size or greater size the authorities and police would say the same things. But I think when you have. A disproportionate number a high number of citizen complaints of excessive force and harassment of brutality excuse me when you have an extraordinary number of police department departmental shootings and deaths in custody it requires absolutely more intensive scrutiny of what's going on. When you have a population of 800000 where the police department is shooting more people than in New York City. Or in Los Angeles. Then you absolutely got a problem that you've got to look at it goes deeper than just some anecdotal information about the need to suppress crime. Is this particularly noticeable because of how the county has

changed over the years. Because you now have a fairly large class of a fluent African-Americans in Prince George's County who see absolutely no distinction between how they tend to be treated by police and how people who would be viewed as quote unquote common criminals tend to be treated by police. Well I think you're absolutely right in that. But I don't think the majority of residents in Prince George's County who are affluent have actually had that personal experience. It's only now that that treatment is starting to affect some of those families are they becoming more aware that there is no immunity to this police abuse. And I don't want to say that all of the behavior in the department is abusive. We have a lot of excellent officers in the department who put their lives on the line every day and who care about our community. But we have a lot of officers who don't live in Prince George's County and who come from other communities that don't have that same kind of urban cultural

ization and don't really understand a lot of the nuances in a in a quasi urban African-American environment. And right now people are starting to realize that we're not going to be put in a position where we have to choose between civil rights and protection. We are entitled to both. And the department has a responsibility to deliver that within the bounds of the law. We're not asking them not to police but we are saying that you don't have the right to violate people's civil rights in the process. Anthony Walker is the head of the Fraternal Order of Police in Prince George's County we invited him to appear on this broadcast he couldn't do it however in a previous conversation with me it appears that he has drawn. He and the FOP have drawn a line in the sand so to speak between themselves and your office. The office of the state's attorney for Prince George's County. He told me that if Jack Johnson is elected county executive in Prince George's County then he Anthony Walker would

not be able to have a conversation with Jack Johnson without a mediator present. What's that all. Well I think this is more about his character and ability than it does about the problems or about you know the state's attorney's ability to talk as county executive. And I think it's unfortunate. I'll just say this. I think that leadership requires more be it from the county executive or the state's attorney or the president of the Fraternal Order of Police. Do you know what the FOP says is look they've tried to prosecute us on at least seven different occasions. They've never actually succeeded in prosecuting us. Therefore my interpretation is they're saying we've never done anything wrong. Well they're just out to get us that that is ridiculous. I mean I would say that the district attorney's office for Manhattan would disagree with the Abner Louima prosecution. I think that the L.A.

County district attorney's office would disagree with the Rodney King prosecution. And I can mention so many others across the country. Just because we haven't been successful in prosecuting police officers doesn't mean that those prosecutions were not merited. I'm absolutely confident that as we looked at those cases and in each one of those cases that resulted in an indictment. They that came through a presentation to me. Ladies and gentlemen of the grand jury people. In the public citizens who got an opportunity to review those facts ask questions and question the evidence and handed up those indictments. After hearing that all of the facts let me say this as well. What isn't said and the pleasant and diplomatic conversation about police community relations also affects other areas of social and political life in

Prince George's County including education financial opportunity and that is there is an established system of. Benefits and patronage. That also reflect themselves I believe in the law enforcement community and in the public safety community that have existed for decades and with the ascension of people of color and African-Americans. People are asking more. This new population more educated more affluent that you've referred to. Their standards are higher they're there. They're not like the people 30 years ago who understood that there was no recourse there was no remedy for them to pursue. They expect the schools to perform better. They expect law enforcement to respect their civil and human rights. And that's because they are prepared to demand that this is a system that unfortunately up until this point has been resistant to respond to the demands of the community.

And in terms of education what has been done is that there is no longer an elected school board. There is now an appointed school board there has been some structural change in the relationship between the school board and what used to be the school superintendent with the superintendent which is a slightly different position and some people will argue that a solution is underway. How do you see a solution to the problem of police community relations. Well I think you know I really believe that we've come to turn the corner because in 98 there was a lawlessness in the department. I mean officers would stand up to you in the street and dare you to file a complaint against them. That culture is pretty much gone. The oversight of the Justice Department the pressure too for the accounting executives office to take some responsibility for the behavior of the police and the direction of the police chief. Just a fact that the FOP has gotten to the point where it's not good to look at the FOP in the context of Prince

George's County. You've got to look at the FOP in the context of a national Web and the Prince George's County FOP is tied into a system that has the strongest legislative influence that any police department or any police. Reunion in a country and so right now the police the FOP is in a battle with the department and the people. To maintain more rights than citizens. And so we're we're really at a point where we're at a defining moment in time and what's going to make the difference is whether or not this new affluent population in Prince George's County chooses to stand up and actually hold elected officials and public servants accountable or whether or not we want to sit back and retreat behind gated walls or gated communities and allow the situation in our greater community to just succumb to

the influences of the power structure. Mark Spencer if we can be more specific about what he was just saying there is a law in Prince George's County a regulation that if a police officer is accused of a crime your office has to wait or investigate is not necessarily your office investigators in the police department have to wait a specific period of time before that officer can even be questioned about this. Frankly most people in the public can't figure out why that is and can't figure out why it is not overturned why it is maintained. Can you explain. Neither can I. The only thing I can explain about it is that. The Law Enforcement Officers Bill of Rights Leo Bor which is what you refer to is also a relic. I mean it came out of the arm of this crime control bill from some years back. But really implemented out of Todd and in a way that there really was no public discussion

or debate about it. And I would dare say even elected officials if you were to ask them really don't know about the nuances of Leo boy. I will say this about the Law Enforcement Officers Bill of Rights and the 10 day provision that you're standing on the 10 day provision applies to officers who are quote unquote involved in a departmental shooting or have been accused of excessive force. Those are very important terms. Unfortunately the way that Leo Bor has been applied in Prince George's County has been. Just with a broad brush and anyone who's standing around anyone who observes who happens to arrive at the scene where a department a shooting occurs is now involved they get placed on administrative leave with pay but they are shielded from being investigated. And in giving their statement of the facts now. I don't believe that police deserve or should require extraordinary Super

ordinary constitutional rights we don't provide that to ordinary citizens. Why the police officers are entitled to this. I don't know and we have general orders that govern what is supposed to happen with the discharge of their duties. We are going to see what happens about that. Mark Spencer he did the Flemings Hall thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for us. When we come back the challenge facing the United Nations as Iraq agrees to the unconditional re-entry of weapons inspectors with our news analysts. We'll be right back. It's only the third time in modern history that a Cabinet level official has been ruled in contempt of court.

We'll talk about the case involving Interior Secretary Gale Norton and the Native American trust fund. Speaking of funds the D.C. government is short of funds to balance its budget for 2003 where will the three hundred twenty five million dollars in cuts be applied. And our first topic last week President Bush threw down the gauntlet to the United Nations and force two resolutions against Saddam Hussein or else this week Saddam Hussein answered with his version of an olive branch we will see how it's working with our panelists Yanick Rice Lamb of the Howard University department of journalism good to see you again. Barbara runnels of the Runnels news service I got a lot of them Henry champ of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation I had the pleasure and Jack White of Savoy magazine he's also writer in residence at the Howard University School of Communications. I said place a writer in residence because I see you riding your bicycle around here but I don't know yeah ok. Actually actually actually a writer in residence would probably be a more accurate term because I haven't been able to get much writing done yet so writer in residence for the time being and the time Saddam

Hussein says we will allow unconditional return of UN's weapons inspectors. Does this delay the prospect of war President Bush is asking for a U.N. resolution saying that we will enforce our previous resolutions against you by a certain date and it looks as if he's going to get a congregational resolution authorizing him to strike at will. Well I think if you're looking at international allies as being part of this in a coalition with the United States yes the delays inevitable because there is a split now in the Security Council. I don't think there's an appetite among some of the United States closest friends to put a resolution quite as tough as the president would like to see. There are nations even in Europe and like Canada who would be perfectly prepared to see the weapons inspectors go into the country and then consider the prospect of whether or not there would be penalties. But if you're talking about the president himself. Does he really care about the United Nations I know he ploy it

with them with the idea of we'll get together and will put this coalition for but as soon as we saw Iraq come forward I think now he's pretty much convinced that that was a waste of his time and he will go forward if necessary by himself without the international community. Barbara No that seem to appease a great number of nations that the president had gone to the United Nations to make a case that he was going that route. Who do you think. Well I'm right now looking at Congress and the Democrats just rolling over. I mean they had issues to make. I mean the lives of American soldiers are at stake. 25 to 35 percent of those who were done in conflict of course are African-Americans. It's been said that a hundred billion dollars will be drained from the economy that this is the money they could go for food and for housing and for education so the Democrats had a good.

A good argument to make but down I go and I gather art and I love them. They looked at the polls they see the. Because when the president is waving the flag they are afraid to appear un patriotic in that instead of giving leadership they caved in and so they lost their their their argument which I thought they had a pretty good one. Yanick Rice Lamb. Yes I think a lot of things to get the look at is that when they're talking about trying to look at the region over there we can have a lot of implications for our oil supply as well and also our relationship with our allies and other countries that are kind of on the fence about what to do with this. Well the administration seems to be making the argument that if we go over there and take out Saddam Hussein according to Secretary of State Colin Powell it will be seen as a liberation and some in the administration fear that that will have an overall quote unquote good effect on that part of the world. It's hard to predict what will happen with that. Jack White I. Forget Do you still get Forgive me for being cynical about

this but I sense a whole kennel full of all of dogs being waked here. What's the urgency. Why now. Saddam Hussein has been there since the Gulf War. He has not as far as I know directly threaten threaten the United States never not verbally at least. There is no evidence or if there is any evidence it hasn't been produced that he had anything to do with the terrible events that the terrorist attack of 9/11. So what is wrong with the notion of bottling him up in there in the same way that we bottle up the Soviet Union during the Cold War for example and waiting for him to die. To allow this why is it. Why do we have to remove him before all of a sudden right now we don't have to remove him this quickly six months ago. Has anything really significantly changed I think to do with the problem that the president has right now is for the skeptics is that he has not made the case that there is something dramatically different now than the situation existed six months or year ago in the November election.

Since you started being cynical I think I can also continue. I've been asking myself pave the way for you safe the way I'll be of asking myself why. You know what one of the real motivations for going to Iraq and one is again oil. You know Iraq is the second largest petroleum reserve next to Saudi Arabia. I mean countries would love to get in there again and get their hands on that country's oil. I think that that's you know you talk about two oil men. I think that's a case I think is still with me and I think that George too the Shrub wants to get back at that. Saddam Hussein because his father wanted to take out a new friend but I think that you know the issue was was was Saddam bin lot. We were supposed to be fighting terrorists in the US like OK you can't get this one. You know they all look alike so let's go get them alone is the famous scenario that the administration sees when a child the administration said look America was attacked a year ago we are

not about to sit idly by and wait to be attacked again yes we have not captured Osama bin Laden but that does not prevent look we can walk and chew gum at the same time. That does not prevent us from looking at others but it's still been alive and we believe was involved with the USS Cole that did. He was responsible for the embassy bombings he was responsible for 9/11 I don't think anybody challenges that what has Saddam Hussein been responsible for. He is responsible for the accumulation of weapons of mass destruction that you well know very well that I believe that right well show me how shallow mission is and show me the proof is what the world is asking for and I don't believe they think it's there. I don't think the international allies believe despite a very powerful speech that the things the president was talking about are necessarily factual it's tired it's old We've heard it all before. And there's another to be cynical there's another aspect I agree with the issue of well I agree with all of those kinds of things but there's also politics I think the Republicans would like to play in the election on this issue as opposed to domestic issues.

And. I think that has to be added in arsenical makes as well as President Bush himself made a comment that some feel was a partially responsible comment that who would want to run for re-election at this point and not support protecting the United States and that of course open the doors which were already partially open to the speculation about whether or not this was overtly political. Doesn't matter to you. Of course it matters to me can't you. HUME One thing that states do foreign policy should be dictated by short term political concerns. But beyond that the barbers are really are the Democratic Party has been effectively defamed. Right now it has not been able to mount a serious critique of the Bush policy with respect to the economy where the stock market is going down even today. Store market is down and it's down dramatically from this week to talk about it you're not able to talk about Medicare reform or prescription drugs and the rest. The only conversation we've had is just around every other topic about this whether or not we

go to war with Iraq or not. And even if we don't it serves the administration's purposes politically. If if this conversation continues past November will allow me to paint the scenario for all of you if the United Nations says OK we will have a resolution imposing penalties against Saddam Hussein. Those penalties will begin to take effect in February of 2003 if the Congress of the United States votes to authorize President Bush to use force. And at the same time the U.N. inspectors are going into Iran with no prospect of a penalty. According before February 2003 does this take this issue off of the front pages between now and the November election which is not good. Let off the front pages. I see that he's going to keep it going. Well of course because you know we've got three issues here the economy Enron and employment. This is where he's he's he's solved and this is where he's going to avoid at all costs. This is a great political issue for him. It is sad to say that that not only those are

the lives of Americans are going to be put in stake. But the preemptive strike strike policy is a dangerous thing for for global international relationships because there's too many other countries that are each other and saying well a preemptive strike is OK. China to one can do that. Pakistan and India and I would say it's a dangerous policy not to say it's the local politics. I personally have no problem with a preemptive strike against Iran provided the evidence right and will do so in the case has not been for innocent bit. Now but. The problem here is you're asking earlier about this is taken off the table. Yeah I'm thinking that the Democratic strategy here is let's get this thing out of the way. Vote for it. Get it off the table the United Nations vote. It's not the way the vote is probably going to be asked of them is not going to take it off the table because the vote is probably going to be asked them would be to authorize the United States to take action unilaterally no matter what the United Nations does you would know better than I do here on this I

thought that deal would have would not be difficult to take action unilaterally if the U.N. has a resolution that imposes a bias absolutely all the polls indicate that there is support for an international effort with the United States. Speaking of American citizens with the United States at its head. But then you take the international component out of that if you asked that the same American citizen how it feels and it's barely 50 percent support really had really good but the noose is being manufactured I mean you know let's face it there's no smoking gun. You know that's been proved but yet if you look at so many of the news coverage they are saying. Weapons of met destruction of mass destruction. Just like that they exist. I mean it's like you speak it into existence. You don't have to have the evidence. You just continue to say it long enough and people believe it and then you keep people who have a peace agenda off of Meet the Press off of Face the Nation shows some of

the talk shows you know. Other than this one you know you're not getting rich you're not getting the dialog runs me out of the. And that not even in Congress Congress is in a situation unless they start something that you know that this proposal says he can go anywhere anytime for any reason. I mean yeah because a man brings me back to the point that you made are you saying that President Bush won't let it be taken off the front pages. The implication or the inference I draw is that because he doesn't want to discuss the economy he doesn't want to discuss any of the other issues that the Democrats want to discuss. So it's in his interest and that of the Republican Party to keep this issue going into November. Well with with September 11 his approval ratings increase with him him going to the U.N. His approval ratings increase. So he's going to keep trying to say in that same direction as long as he can milk it for all it's worth. It worked perfectly for him on so many levels I mean you don't have to tack about the Middle East you don't have to tack about solving some of the root causes of terrorism why do people hate the United States you don't have to deal with any of those things. It's an ideal pre-election strategy

and one that is going to be in place because the president commands the bully pulpit for the moment because. And your point well-taken. The Democrats are not prepared at the moment to fight. You mention the Middle East in the wake of some more suicide bombings that took many lives there during the course of the past week. The Israeli army has once again moved in on the compound of Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat and now seems to be digging a hole around the compound it seems to me to be reminiscent of a moat because they say with it what they intend to do is to isolate Yasser Arafat at this point once again giving the oppression that Yasser Arafat is directly connected to the suicide bombs the implication that he has some how guilty of the suicide bombings. Anyone care to comment on this little. Things just in case the literal did in which the policies on both sides there and American policy I think could very been driving a terrible should I think this you know. I mean to build a moat around

is the symbol of the incredible negative symbolism that is breathtaking it's almost beyond that but our policy is 100 percent supporting Israel no matter what. And so if if they bomb mean killing a do whatever. We'll keep giving him the three billion dollars that we always give him because that whether you like it or not is American policy. What it does appear that the isolation of Yasser Arafat leads to the increasing and increasing impression that this is all the fault of Yasser Arafat rather it would appear that dealing with some of the more complex issues of the Middle East but back to domestic policy and the champ Interior Secretary Gale Norton held in contempt of court. In a decision in which Judge Royce Lamberth used some pretty long strong language to say that the interior secretary was in fact deceiving him and therefore deceiving the public about what they were doing to straighten out the situation.

Well I think if she has been deceptive as well as one has been following that case we have similar cases to that very unfortunately occurring in Canada. I'm not so sure that centering out the Cabinet minister is the real key here I think the Interior Department really is the one that's most to blame. The redress of what clearly is the mismanagement of hundreds of millions of dollars that truly belong to the native people is just abominable. The problem with this judge's ruling and the problem with the previous ruling he made in exactly the same case is we don't see the consequences. And I think that here. We need to see the justice you're in violation of resolutions but there is no penalty and precisely anything and lock up the secretary of interior to get this. Well unfortunately I think if you look at the case and it's and it's and it's a fact that would be a useful start but I think it's just sending a message. That. What has been going on his historically we only have to deal with with with with with her with Norton but but historically the Indians

land have been taking I mean what we had it one million and and now they are fighting about this 20 18 or 21 million. So you know did they have to raise this issue to the fact that what America has with the United States has traditionally done is wrong as wrong as the lands of African-Americans who have joined the millions. So I mean just to state the case and say that this is wrong you get that sense of moral outrage out there is fine. Another issue that seems to be slipping under the radar screen and other news items occupy our attention here in Washington D.C. the 2003 budget of the District of Columbia faces it three hundred and twenty five million dollar shortfall and it would appear that there are going to be fairly heavy cuts in education fairly heavy cuts in social services virtually no cuts and all public safety programs and. Clearly. Highly unlikely that there'd be any new additional taxes

on property or sales or anything else Jack White. This is the big challenge of the administration I'm married but I'm going up I'm not. I'm sorry. OK Anthony Williams This sounds like something that it could have occurred on Anthony Williams his predecessor's watch. And the fact is the son of a gun is not even in town. He's in meetings he's in Athens and some cock a Maimie Conference of Mayors it has nothing to do with this. Meanwhile we're talking about possibly cutting tens of millions of dollars out of the budget of an already beleaguered school system and also some of the difference and also some of the cutbacks this administration which may be limping back. After a scandal involving its failure to be able to do something as basic as get 2000 signatures on petitions which may be limping back. Really is going to has a lot to prove when they get back. I am on the list never received devoted new voting Corps for example that we were promised

in the head of this most recent primary election so you have trouble connecting those hours. Well I'm actually registered as an independent. Thank God I did not. Have to have to vote in this in this particular community where that money is going to come from we are talking about taking a hundred million dollars out of the school budget thats already strapped the people leaving the area to have their children educated other places and 150 million out of Social Services you know and part of that coming out of housing when people can't find homes where gentrification is rising where people can't use Section 8 vouchers. But do you know what you don't balance the budget. Your bond rating goes well when it's just about to go up. But on the other other side of this you know when you look at what has happened to Washington you know since 9 1 1 we've had tourism has declined restaurants have been hurting. You know we've had less taxes less the smell of Mom and on the drive no sign of the revenue stream is down so I think that we we don't have a Marion Barry situation

we know that that Williams is in Greece but we'll have to send out the drug administration up to look at it. You know I think that we just have to to really get back on what are the streams of revenue that we could get. Can you raise more taxes. You know right now we're talking about that lower middle class blacks can't afford to live in a district. So you can't do that and I think that commuter tax that nobody wants to talk about I mean how they're Virginia and Maryland come in use the roads to service everything go back to the suburbs and give the District nothing of the mind that being between a rock and a hard place. Well yes but that I agree with everything you're saying but I think you're giving the mayor a pass. I'm not but I like the mayor well that you know I probably know something. So do I hear what he has to get his buddy out get the hoarded out because we need a voice that can speak to Congress and has one great ability it seems to me is at least they like you they don't want you here there's nothing there's not one of them I don't know him I know look they're

not going to it's not on him is that he does not seem to be in touch with the personal needs and feelings of his constituents and I would contend that despite the fact that he can stay in constant communication from Greece that his presence here at the time of the budget crisis is an absolutely important signal that he really understands I act my situation is healthy. Your cell phone can get a signal around the corner I don't know how reliable it is from Greece but that's OK it's easier to make a cold agrees that it is only called Upper Northwest. I think that white Jack White knows if he's talking about a fortune that we're out of time. Thank you for being with us. You've got a good job good salary nice benefits nice things retirement is the farthest thing from your mind. Wake up it's a nightmare. Explanations when we come back. But.

It's natural to think that once you find a decent job or career for the good life will follow. Barring unforeseen circumstances but what exactly are you foreseeing how far down the road of life are you looking. Even exchange correspondent Jason de Walton looks at how two individuals from two different generations are traveling down that road. Meet Ruth Smith. She's walking through her retirement years with ease. She's no millionaire but she's quite comfortable. She's in her late 60s. She raised two children alone after her husband died. She worked as an educator for 43 years and she's always been dedicated to saving. Gosh when I first started changing and Washington D.C. $2000 a year thank a bit. And what can you do with that. We'll she did a lot with that. Smith's discipline in her younger years now allows her to spin her golden years traveling her home is full of artwork she collects during her overseas

trips. She works out of the Washington Redskins on the run and buys tons of relaxing music. Meet Marshall Johnson a young man who loves the sweet sounds of a promising financial future. He's 35 he's single. He earns a modest salary as a partner for a multimedia company and he is dedicated to saving for retirement. Sometimes I don't feel I have the capital. Do the things that I want to do. But I always try to pay myself first. Smith started saving his time I started putting money into an IRA before a single mom who sometimes had to work two jobs putting money into an IRA became difficult. So I thought and thought and I decided. When I get an increment in my salary and I thought well. How about going for a tax sheltered in a way. And that way I wouldn't even feel it.

Johnson says he's always been disciplined with his money. A few years ago he started seriously thinking about his retirement and started his IRA. And I'm also trying to. Build up just in essence I have my portfolio build up with bonds and stocks and other mutual funds that just have a basis to recover. Smith says she made good choices early on with insurance policies stocks and a real estate investment group but she did get burned once in a get rich quick scheme for a moment. Yes I was quite discouraged but then I thought. You know you're an educator. Doing your own educating educate yourself. And so I began to. Do a bit of research. Smith and Johnson consulted a financial planner but they both say you can't rely solely on a planners advice. Also doing stuff on my own like an internet watching financial like sitting on line and just trying to get a well rounded base as to where

I'm going with what most people are surrounded by a pile of bills every month. And when you have a modest salary it can seem almost impossible to save any money. But people who want to live comfortably in their golden years say saving is a must. Be sure to put something aside. Trust me those years go by swiftly. And before you know it you're there. If you have not planned ahead your retirement will not be what you had hoped they would. Smith lives off of her savings pension and Social Security but if she didn't have other financial cushions could she live off of just that Social Security check. Absolutely not. Because. We still have things like that sort of thing. Johnson and Smith come from different generations. While Smith sits down and hand writes her budget Johnson hops on his computer. But their basic financial principles are the same. Currently Johnson has to go buy a house and getting rid of his credit card debt.

They're not a credit card debt I have is for the $700 and I feel that if I could pay that off I could take the money that I was paying on the credit cards and then use that and save up for the house or a mutual fund. That's a much lower than the average American household credit card debt. But he wants to be better than average just like Smith. She's living proof that early planning can make your golden years just that golden or even exchange. I'm Jan de Walton. The golden years the pot of gold that awaits you at the end of the rainbow seems to be your own rainmaker which is something you'll hear more about from Yvonne Bess of American Express good to have you here Yvonne. Oh thank you. And Michelle Singletary syndicated columnist Money columnist for The Washington Post Welcome Michelle. Thank you. How about that for you $700 credit card debt that Marshall Johnson has laid out. That's a lot of money but as the tape piece showed it's still only about half of what the average American family carries the average American family carries about $8000 in credit card

debt that's average so there's people with much more than that and they're college students who are filing bankruptcy because of their credit card debt and I think he is absolutely right about trying to get that debt out of the way $47000 might I think like a lot to a lot of people who have more than that. But he's right that money that's going away to those credit cards could be going into his retirement fund. And 35 he's nice thing young and handsome but that still no you know that's going to get in late in the game in terms of saving for your retirement the day you should start saving for time is the day you graduate from college and get their first job. Then you should start be thinking about retirement because you've got years ahead of you and you've got time on your side. And that's the best thing and the best plan for saving for your retirement what do you say about credit cards. They are evil you know they're you know not evil you know. Don't buy anything right now. What is it that I have this argument people all the time. You know yes we have their credit cards to maybe rent a car and you know establish credit sort of for how we stay but for the most part what is it that you absolutely need to to to to charge on a credit card. Nothing. And people say

oh I need a case my car breaks down I drive around that way in my neighborhood and I don't see a whole string of people broke down on the side of the road. And when you look at their credit card statements nary a CIT has gone to repair a car. So you know get rid of that credit card debt that is probably the biggest hindrance for people to save for their retirement. One of the individuals in and they say Walter's report said yes at one point she did get caught up and burned in the get rich quick scheme when I hear great get rich quick as I think of short term investments on which you're going to be making a huge return. What do you advise people about that in terms of saving for retirement terms the saving of retirement. What you're speaking about though with that get rich quick was like in about two or three years ago when no one's buying tech stocks and they were driving a Porsche isn't living in the big home that was get rich quick. But in terms of. Truly planning for every time and you should remain diversified. You should have a portfolio based upon your risk tolerance levels

and the age you are. And like Michelle said You're never too young to start the younger people can start with a more aggressive portfolio maybe with equities and some real estate investment trusts where the old individual should be more conservative and look what the bond funds and keeping their money in Kashmir cools. When you say risk tolerance ratio What do you mean. Well I'm saying whether you are a conservative investor or whether you're I'm moderately aggressive investor or if you are aggressive or we call that in my industry Las Vegas you know you know $10 on red and if it goes it goes and if it doesn't you don't care. So your risk tolerance level is how much you willing to spend how much you're willing to lose in your investments and the way you tell that is is how comfortable you are with whatever is being sold to you or that you're buying. And if someone is telling you about something that seems a little risky in your stomach is in knots and you're like oh Lord oh Lord oh Lord and you're looking at the Dow average every day then. Then that's not for you. Me Follow your

gut. I'm not there with me. You know I like things that are fairly safe sort of in the middle I mean certainly I have mutual funds and things like that but I tend to side. Caution I mean I really worry about maintaining my principle now. You know my husband's just the opposite he likes to be a little bit more aggressive and that's fine to me but you really have to be true to yourself if you're going to be worrying about that investment every single day then that's probably not right for you. The other thing one of the individuals in the report said is that I educated myself and I began to learn about the stock market and the like. You talk to the average young person who just got a job at a decent salary. They know that they should be saving as the young man said. Pay yourself first that of course is Michelle Singletary screed. Pay yourself for this. A lot of people are now learning that and know how to do that. But beyond that which they can put into a savings account someplace they don't exactly understand how you diversify How do you explain.

Well it's different for every person. I would say that you should diversify in mutual funds. You should diversify in cash you should diversify what bonds you should diversify with stocks. But it's different for every person. If this young man you're 35 years old. At what age in your life are we looking at 65. What age in your life do you want to have. The return on your investments in a condition where if you fully retire and that is not do a job anymore you'll be able to live comfortably comfortably for the rest of your life. Right. I would say for someone to at least be able to get out of the game at least five years ahead of time at least five years at a time and that means right right now. To go out there and be too aggressive because we have a lot of politics in this market right now. What you mean by that I mean a lot of the investments in a lot of the things we're doing right now and a lot of the returns that you see in the stock market is not so much the structure of the companies but it's emotional.

So you're seeing a lot of what's going on now based upon what's going on in our world. So yes while he has the age is e still can't do what we would have done five years ago which is go out there full force with the stocks and go out there full force with the techs. You have to be mindful about the economy but now about the emotional dynamics behind it. And when you're investing Michel you have to look at this thing called possibility because as as Yvonne was pointing out earlier during the boom years especially in the high tech stocks people felt there was no way this could go down now you're risk averse you don't like high risk investments. I would advice do you give to people who. Are looking to diversify but who have not yet educated themselves about what's going on. Well first of all you've got to educate yourself I think as the woman said in the piece you got to know what you're investing in if you don't understand what you're investing in. Don't put your money in it is as simple as that but presumably the person who came to her with the get rich quick scheme probably showed her some figures about the likelihood that this was going to be

giving her a very high return on her investment over a very short period of time. How does the average person understand the debt but you know I'm not a gambler but I'm willing to bet that she didn't do independent research when the person came to her. I'm willing to bet a whole dollar that she didn't because when you do your independent research you find out these schemes are bogus. And so you do need to even when you meet with a financial planner everything that they tell you you should go and research and double check because they are. Different issues you know some planners are operating on commission and some are fee based and you know I mean they're trying to make a living so they're selling things however way they do it but you need to know as much as is the planner does to make those kind of decisions. Me it's so so important to educate yourself. You can read my column. But it's interesting. I'm starving. Color of Money Book Club. Actually I'm announcing it this coming Sunday. I just announced that I did yeah just announce it here for years actually. And so every couple months I'm going to be reviewing financial books and that's the great place to start. One of the first books that I'm going to recommend for the book is called The Richest

Man in Babylon real tiny book six bucking on the cheap. So I was like seven bucks you can get it I got my copy of the library. And this book uses parables based in Babylon to try to tell you about the basic principles of saving spending and investing and what are they. Pay yourself first. I mean you know listen my grandmother didn't invest in anything. Nothing not even a CD. I could not get that woman to invest and I see the safest thing you could. But she still overtired with money and she lived off her time and savings pension and Social Security and she left because she had her house paid off she had no debt and she lived below me. And so those are the kinds of things that people ought to be mindful of and if you do those things if you make money in the market you are sitting on gravy. I mean if you do those baselines things then you wouldn't be worried about all this stuff is going on you would be subject to these scams and these bogus games and things like that because you won't be worried about making 20 percent what is meant by educating yourself. A lot of people feel that educating yourself about the stock market is looking at all of those

shows were quote unquote experts come on and tell you what's up what's down what you need to invest in and whether or not without disclosing their interest or affiliation with some of the companies they are recommending. How do you educate yourself. OK you don't that's not educating yourself that's just observing as entertainers you're inserting You know definitely Educating yourself is actually going out there and reading doing the hard work behind it. If I were to come to you and suggest certain. Vehicles for you to invest in you would take would I give you but you would also go through independent means and get some information. I'll go to another investment house. Educate yourself is doing the work behind reading the materials. A few reading up on on a mutual fund go actually to look at each fund with in that mutual fund. If you thinking about investing in a stock it is knowing what that company is really doing its book value with its history its games its everything. So its not just taking what I'm saying it's

doing your homework. What if I'm thinking about trying retirement but I also have children who are not yet college age so I have to be thinking about their college education and a fun for them. I need to be saving for that. Can I do all of this yes or you can you can you make your decisions about what's priority to you. And you do it this way you say how do I want to live in my retirement. Am I willing to maybe. Me and my wife I'm a significative a live it. Eighty percent of what we're doing. What do we want to live out a hundred and 10 percent to be away on an island. And then you make a choice that way with your children's education did you promise to give them 100 percent of that education funded. What is this I hear you know guys will give you you know where your parents will give you half and you get scholarships and fun for the rest. So yes you can do it all it's the level that you want to commit to. You got to do it all. Well you know I love it. Only only I disagree just a little bit. I don't think everybody can do it all and I think you do is you say set priorities and if you look at what you're making and you really are making a modest income and you've got some debt and you need to save for your

retirement then those kids can borrow to go to school you can borrow to live in retirement and send them to a community college and then they can go to a four year university where they can work some and then go to college I mean I you know I use this all the time. When you get on a plane and the flight attendant says put the oxygen mask on you first. And as a parrot inherently you're thinking no way I'm going to put it on my kid first but think about why they tell you to do that because if you don't put it on first you can't help your kid. So if you are living in poverty in retirement that's going to be a burden on your child so take care of yourself first I know it's sort of against your you know what we've been brought up to think but take care of yourself first and then if you have some money left over you can help the children. So in the final analysis retirement is what you have to do in order to save your children. The more you have and take care of you when you get 0 0 you say son daughter. Study very carefully now because you're going to have to get a scholarship to go to. And in reality a lot of people will be retired longer than they've worked. So when we talk about retirement we're not just talking about the money for the mortgage and we hope that's

paid. We're talking about it takes 20 30 years yes we're talking about long term care we're talking about any of the emergencies that pop up. Thank you very much for joining us and the thanks to all of our guests for joining us but most of all thanks to you for watching. Stay well. Good night.