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The Congressional Black Caucus gears up for the new administration. The anniversary of the landmark legal decision on abortion and legal scholars look at racism. Next an evening exchange. I enjoy a Jefferson senior producer welcome to evening exchange Kojo Nnamdi has the evening off. Tomorrow marks the 20th anniversary of Roe versus Wade a landmark case that allowed women to have legal abortions tomorrow also marks the date of the publication of a new book called The worst of times illegal abortion survivors practitioners corners cops and children of women who have died. To talk about its horrors Patricia Miller joins us now and she is the author of the book. Also joining us is Susan Smith the public policy director for the National Right to Life Committee. I'd like to welcome both of you to even exchange. Thank you. Let's start with your book Miss Miller. OK. You know say it you told me earlier that you are writing history. Right. What is your book. The
worst of times. It's an oral history of people who observed and had experiences with illegal abortion. The real question that the people have to deal with is not whether or not we'll have abortion we always have and we always will because we live in a world of umbrella ribs and bicycle spokes and coat hangers and things like that. And the only real question is which kind are we going to have. And it's now been 25 years since we saw that kind in the people who are making policy maybe weren't even old enough to vote. And I want them to know what the older the other choice is. Before all these people die of old age. Susan what does that say to you. I mean people you are pro-life. Liz Miller is saying that because abortions were illegal women died.
Well I think it's important to understand that. That since so-called safe and legal abortion was made the law of the land in 1973 that there are women that have died and been maimed as a result of complications from abortion since 1973. We're against abortion whether it's legal or illegal because it takes the life of an unborn baby and the baby is just one of the victims. Women also are scarred and maimed as a result physically as well as emotionally and that's something that I think needs to be discussed in because unfortunately I think that there's been sort of a conspiracy of silence surrounding a legalized abortion. And so we don't always hear of the women that die as a result of abortion or made sterile as a result of that are you saying that women are still having illegal abortions what but are you saying in the process of having a legal abortion they're complicated. I'm saying that that the that there is a myth surrounding safe
and legal abortion that even when abortion is legal that there are certainly complications and deaths that have resulted but we we unfortunately we don't hear the abortion lobby talking about now that I was told to go before that I'd like to talk about that. You can die eating a steak dinner you can die crossing the street it's unlikely but it could happen. One of us could have a heart attack right here. A legal abortion is 17 times safer than a penicillin shot. Now think about that. That's something Americans do all the time all the time and need the mental you talk about the mental anguish that women have. I didn't find that at all with these people I found. Anger over what they were forced to go through. And I found incredible relief once they solved their problem. I didn't find they were the regret
was that I had to go to Cuba that I had to be blindfolded been taken to some attic I mean that's the regret. Well that's interesting because. Frankly I well the pro-life movement via crisis pregnancy centers across the country which are set up to help women carry their babies to term. I often have women that come to them after their abortion in an intense distress and I you know I would ask you if you don't believe that women suffer emotionally as a result of abortion why have so many support groups sprung up all across this country to help women deal with the tremendous emotional aftereffects of their abortion. These so-called support groups are the anti abortion lobby and you can always find a woman I interviewed one of the people I interviewed was an abortionist who converted to Catholicism and
truly regrets her past life and that certainly happens. And I'm not. I mean abortion is certainly not a good it's a failure. But the issue is how are how are we going to have abortions are we going to have been backseats of cars as some of the women did here or are we going to have them in clinics and I don't know if you're just going to say that I should not have abortions. Sure and that's not going to. Half an hour. OK well I think that you're quite right that when a woman seeks an abortion it is a failure it's a failure of the system it's a failure of it's a society. Since I want her and encourage her in her in her pregnancy because I think that that most women would not choose abortion and I think it's a it's one of the greatest fallacies of free choice is that women go into the abortion clinics confident and secure in the decision that they've made. There are so many women. But I don't but.
But the reality is that so many women have their abortion saying well I've got no other choice because they're under tremendous pressure and I don't think you can ignore that. They've gotten pressure from their husbands from their boyfriends from their families but I think that most of the women that I have interviewed throughout the years doing stories on abortion who elect to have an abortion do it not because they don't want to have a baby because financially they believe they should not do this to have this baby would doom them to welfare. Well that's where the failure comes in because I think that given the right financial assistance that most women would have been you. Going to the other argument that we're having in this country that we're having too much financial assistance I mean we should we set it up should we set up a system by which women can feel free to have a baby that she cannot support and expect the rest of us to support that baby. Well you know you and I may agree on that because I when I believe in choice I believe in your right to make choices that I might not make. If you want to have 12
children and you can't support them I believe you have the right to make that choice because this is so personal and so intimate that it must be your choice it just must be. Even if it's a choice I would agree with I guess what I would say to that is that I don't think that there's any financial consideration that is so compelling that an innocent unborn child should die because of it. And that's the central issue. Well that you know your value judgment and that is your central issue. That's true. Well it's certainly a biological fact that pregnant women carry a member of the human species rooms within their womb not a puppy a dog no other to you. To you an embryo is the functionally equivalent of an adult woman. And many people have a different value system when you read the women in this book. Still Janet. They did what they in their own control of their own
life. They had to do. Janet was a battered wife with two children. She's gone on she's become a lawyer she's been. It's just it's a value system they're not going to buy and you know you and I what I say is that take that woman out of that loaded situation where maybe her husband is beating her or she's you know doesn't have to fight to get resources. It would be the only child and I still want to you know I don't I just what a horrible decision mind but I don't think you know what we're talking about here is again an innocent unborn child and I once we say that life is expendable. You know due to financial hardship and extraneous kind of circumstances then I think it really reflects on you know it asked us some very basic questions about you know our respect for other human beings who are vulnerable and who might be a
burden on society before we go any further let's take a telephone call from the audience Hello caller you're on the line. Go ahead welcome to even the exchange. Thank you. My name is Josephine Fernandez and I had an abortion several years ago and the trauma that and the emotional distress that comes after an abortion is not something that's made up. I had nightmares. I had I thought about the child that I had killed and I wondered what it would be and what my life would be. Now I was responsible. When I had gotten pregnant and I got pregnant again seven years after that and because of the trauma of that of that first abortion I chose to keep my child. It's been a it's been financially difficult for us but I believe that I made the right choice the second time around the first time when I had the abortion I was 11 weeks pregnant and I was told that it was a bunch of cells. When I saw the picture of an 11 week old fetus that's a child that's not a value judgement that's a fact that is a child in the making.
Can I ask you a question. Yes. What were the circumstances that you had to have an abortion. I was 17 years old. I was still in high school. I was no longer with the guy that I had gotten pregnant from. And I was I was scared. And I did when I went to the abortion clinic I wasn't given any other options I wasn't told that oh you can give your child up for adoption. You can you know you can go on welfare that's not an ideal circumstance but it is an option. Let's hope and that's not something that would. That's not something that I was home when I went for the abortion I wasn't given any other counsel as far as that there were other options that were open to me. Well I do miss Fernandes. Thank you. I want one of the excuse me I think once again I have to say that I think one of the greatest failures of the abortion lobby is is there their failure to address women like that caller who have come forward by the thousands and said I am hurting as a result of my Borsen and the abortion lobby
ignores them and covers it up and presents abortion as this sanitized consequence free. OK. Look here's Ms Fernandez. I respect the choice that she made each of them. I am very sorry that she made a choice that she regrets. I mean I don't care if any woman in America ever has an abortion but I believe she must have access to safe medical care if you're going to write about the consequences of abortion before Roe v. Wade. I think that you have a responsibility to write about the consequences of a book you may have already my in my next book I was more concerned about that this history is going to disappear and we will never know. I have had people interview me a woman who was 32 and we do this interview and at the end of it she says I had no idea it was like that.
And those are the people that I want to know. Let's get back to the telephone lists OK let other women into this discussion. You're on even extremes welcome. Hello. Hi I would like to say something about the abortion movement. Ideally I'd wish in a real world that it was like people hide options open always people who never needed abortions people never had before and children never had children addicted to drugs having 80 and having no financial services. But that's not the way it is. Women will want to get abortions and they may reject their choice. They may not. That's up to them. But there is going to do that like it or not and if we make it illegal if one stop it will draw you a little bit but it won't stop. Thank you caller. Well you know again it's it is an abortion.
Every abortion is a terrible tragedy because the baby dies and a woman is left to deal with that fact after her aborted it is simply not true. With all due respect it's not true. When we are live isn't it really true that women are anguished guilt ridden creatures. They are adult. They make choices they make difficult choices they did they were just. But I did I thought I did I guess when I went home when I did I wasn't I didn't have one though I should let me just I make a point ahead that the women like the first caller don't go to the abortion movement they don't go to the abortion clinic and say help me deal with the emotional trauma I'm feeling they're going to have me. Or I guess what I'm saying after they have their abortion and they say My God what have I done. Because the abortion clinics offer you know $250 abortion. They go to people and groups that
embrace them and try to help them deal with the tragedy and they are comply just League Nelsen around the time I have a question. Why does it have to be illegal. Why can't a woman have a choice and why can't we. I guess I agree with Miss Miller that I really wish women didn't have to have abortion and I have in my life I have to admit I've never been faced with that decision and I hope to die never being faced with that kind of awful choice. But because the central do I have to make it illegal. Can't we just educate so that women don't need it. Sure we have to make it illegal sure we can. We could educate we could and we need to do a lot of education. But the central fact that we can't get away from. Try as we might the biological reality is that every pregnant woman is carrying her child. Ask the women that go for their ultrasounds what they see on the screen you are not I don't think. It is you know there's no question is whether or not we're killing a human being you know a full fledged human being I think the question is whether or not I can raise this human being. Well I think most of the women I've ever encountered who had an
abortion understand they killed somebody who was human. OK they didn't go through this illusion that you're not human until you're 15 weeks into it. But when do you know then they're telling a human but they honestly believe they can't. Well I say to you what kind of society do we live in that condones the killing of another human being. Why can't I feel that you know because you are a burden on voice I knew you would be it sounds preposterous innocent and yet and yet killing an unborn child because you know you can't raise it or because you know you're poor is outrageous we can't kill born human beings for that reason and we don't talk I want to go can you. I mean what you are you are advocating your position that no one no woman ought to choose to terminate a pregnancy when human wait a minute. But when you failed to convince her are you then going to consign her to the back alley and I submit that you have no right to consign her to the bed and yelling I would free answer
or reiterate your question. Why do you feel compelled to make it because nobody has the right to kill another Still you want to have an earring. She still do we. Doesn't this logic follow to what you are still going to be rape and murder so do we make it legal and put it into a sanitized setting just because it's going to go on. I think we address the reasons why women seek abortions. But the bottom line is it is wrong and society as you as a bottom line society has a responsibility to protect the lives of human beings and an unborn child is a human being and it's simply wrong and unjust to take a baby's life. We are going to have to take a break and in this segment and move on with the show this is the debate that could is probably going to rage on throughout all time. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that I thought really summed this up really well. It said birth control prevents abortion. And I thought that that was the answer to all of the I like the
bumper sticker that says a baby's abortion is. That it's a child not a choice. That's. Yeah. OK. Thank you ladies for joining us live Kate tomorrow marks the 20th anniversary of Roe v. Wade. I'm sure will be page one in the news for the next few days at least when we come back the head of the Congressional Black Caucus Representative quite a scene for me. Stay with us. My.
Oh my. My. My. Welcome back to evening exchange yesterday Bill Clinton was sworn in as the forty second president of the United States and the 100 third Congress is standing in the wings to either usher in what he wants or deny what he wants. Joining us right now is the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus the newly elected chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus. Baltimore representative quite a scene for me. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Yes I want to get right out. What is the Black Caucus doing. What's on the agenda. What are we going to do. Well this is an interesting and challenging period in history the caucus it's numerically at its largest strength since its beginning more diverse than ever and finding itself for the first time in 12 years large the opposite in some respects or with in some respects a Democrat in the White House for the first time. And while the caucus is fashioning an agenda we'll be
doing so all this month that takes a bit a bit of doing because there are a lot of divergent issues and a lot of different competing interests but we're doing that in a very methodical well-designed way and we hope to have the final touches on that agenda in another few days so that we can begin this term with a clearer sense of where we want to go how we want to get there and a way to measure our effectiveness both in the short term and long term. Give us a preview of the agenda. Well let me suggest to you first of all that the traditional agenda is still part of the current agenda and that is the area of the very broad area of civil rights but not civil rights in the usual sense civil rights from the perspective of enforcement. You know many of us happen to believe that the struggles of the 1960s and 70s to bring about civil rights laws. We're very effective. But all of that is muted. If you have a Justice Department that looks with a dead eye and a deaf ear to enforcement So what we're going to do as it relates to the civil rights this time around is not so much concentrate
on doing the laws that repeat existing laws but to make sure that the Department of Justice enforces existing law. So I want to lay that out because that has been a traditional part of our agenda and will remain so. Some of the things that are a little different this time is that the caucus will be working very very diligently to shape form and fashion either with this new administration or without it an urban policy agenda for this nation. We've not had an urban policy for 12 years. We've had in my opinion in the opinion of many others a period of neglect in that regard. We believe that housing has to be made available to housing stock has got to go up for poor people that means public housing that is decent and livable and for middle income people that means affordable housing being able to buy your first home or certainly stay in the home you have and not worry as many people do with what's happening in the economy that causes people to to lose out on that is let me stop you right there before we get to the long list of go through and ask you some questions about that and urban policy.
How do you interact at this that come through as a Bill how do we pay for it. How do you convince this administration and your colleagues on the Hill I know that the Congressional Black Caucus is simply one sixth of the vote needed to pass anything through the house. How do you shape in a light that we're going to have to start saving money. They were looking at cutting programs how do you convince this administration that is looking at deficit reduction that they need to spend more money in public housing or in our cities. Well first let me say that although we've stopped at this particular point it is a comprehensive agenda in that there are many other parts of it that I hope we have a chance to discuss tonight. It is not so much. Realizing that we have a situation of fiscal austerity in many respects in this nation that we should be concerned about. We believe that if we redirect our priorities with the existing funds that we have available we can do what we have to do in a very effective way and in a measurable way in this country both in the short term and long term. So we're not talking about new dollars in that regard. We're talking about new avenues and new
priorities for those dollars that move us to the realities that George Bush love to talk about in this new world order that new world order really ought to start here in this country in many respects and so we believe the reallocation of existing dollars by reallocating and reforming priorities is the first step in doing that. And while the caucus represents one sixth of the Congress in terms of numbers most legislation that is passed in the House of Representatives of any significance passes by a 20 to 40 vote margin having now thirty nine votes in the house and one additional one in the Senate. We're in a different position now to a fact hold hostage or killed for that matter. Do you really believe I just. And I'm going to use the word legislation after I use the word kills and I one misunderstands OK to kill legislation if necessary to to drive home that point we'd like to be cooperative in working together but we don't have a lot of time and our people are suffering too much in this country to play games. Do you vote as a block is the Congressional Black Caucus a unit that is that strong.
The Congressional Black Caucus is a unit that is that strong but we're not monolithic just like people of color in this nation are not going to know Gary friends in Connecticut. I generally vote somewhere else. New newly designated agriculture secretary to culture secretary Mike Espy when his own separate way. Do you see the thirty nine people remaining I guess now 38 of Mike Espy is gone. Voting as a block being that strong. Well Gary Franks voted with the caucus to a lesser extent because he was a Republican and the party loyalty came into play as well as his constituency for that matter. Mike Espy was with the caucus on most issues there were some issues because he was from an agricultural district to cause him to vote other ways but for the most part he was pretty much of the consensus that we have in the caucus. And that's what the key word really is today it is not can the caucus be unanimous on something but can it reach a consensus whereby we can move together to break any kind of right get rid law or deadlock that affects legislation that affects the people that we represent. Understanding that we are not monolithic in recognizing that we have differences. We've got to
find consensus and so that becomes the key phrase and yes that can be done and will be done under this administration to what extent we can working in partnership. But where necessary working against this administration or on our own for that matter to do what we have been sent here to do. When your colleagues came into power a little over 20 years ago it is now 23 years ago when the caucus was formed they heralded themselves as the new civil rights leader. This is the new civil rights leadership. Obviously you were not there then under your leadership and as you mentioned civil rights being the first thing on the plate this Congress. Where is the bite. Where where's the national bite. I have to admit to you that unless we are coming into Congressional Black Caucus legislative weekend I don't hear from you guys all year long. I mean I do because I'm a producer and you know we keep what's going on on the Hill but I don't see the nation as a whole knowing what you guys are doing. Well that is a result of journalistic racism not a result of inactivity. The
fact that ABC and NBC and CNN and others choose not to give priority to the issues that we work on day in and day out many many hours the victories that we have either through amendments or straight through legislation is not so much a reflection of an activity it is a reflection of systemic institutionalized journalistic racism that is real and is in that profession as it is for people who on the job who find themselves being discriminated against. And so I really don't care whether or not those particular aspects of the media choose to to cover us. We try to communicate through the black media and to black people directly in that regard. There are some things that I am going to do differently as chairman of the caucus it's not to take away from anything that may have happened in the past it's just that I I'm trying to measure and set out a course that we can be measured by and that is very very important to me that people who we represent can look at what we're doing. Short term three months six months nine months long term two years and say this is what they attempted in this is
what they they succeeded and we're going we're finding new ways to communicate and to some extent forcing the larger media now to recognize that it does have inherent problems in terms of the priority it sets based on whether or not you're black member of Congress or a white member. Right. Have you sat down or do you know if your colleagues have sat down with the editorial boards of news like the Washington Post New York Times with the bureau chiefs CNN and ABC and CBS and said what's up. Well I don't know if my predecessors have done that. We have already started scheduling those kind of meetings under my leadership and we will do it we will do it as a courtesy and we will do it also sets. No one can say that has never been done. But I don't want to spend all of my time courting the larger press I expect to be able to do work and if they themselves get to the point of being realistic they will realize that there is a difference sometimes in terms of what they consider important to report on. And maybe that will help to effectuate some of that change.
I mention the Congressional Black Caucus legislative weekend that happens every year and it has the seminars that happen. It also has a big party that goes on. The foundation actually runs the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation runs that weekend raises a lot of money in the course of the year what happens to that money what happens to that budget. Where is that money used. Well the foundation uses that money for a number of different things it finances research projects it initiate a very large scholarship program for young people who are trying to to get funds to matriculate into schools. It underwrites projects of a caucus not of individual members but of the caucus in general. And it is developing into what we like to consider to be the largest think tank in African American political life as we know it. So those are some of the ways that the money is used by the Foundation a think tank as in helping you craft your legislation doing the research etc. primarily doing the research here. OK. Do you believe that list for
me health care for me personally universal health care is something I'm tremendously interested in. I with your 17 years of sick parents and almost financially wiped my sister and I out trying to take care of them our parents had strokes and diabetes. What is universal health care. What does it mean at the African-American community. In your view what does it mean to us and what is it going to mean to black doctors and black insurance companies where we have the A.M.A. and insurance companies really being upset about this universal health care. Where does it work for the African-American community. Where does this debate stand now. Well the debate has to be fashioned in such a way that we're able to explode the myths that exist and the false hoods that are perpetrated by people who have the most to gain. And I say that without any reservation at all based primarily it many of the pharmaceutical companies and others who continue to whip out these great fears that it's going to do all the terrible things in the world that is and never taken place before. Well those terrible
things are already happening to people who are sick who have to live and pay most of their money for prescription drugs who can't afford hospital stays who want and like would like to be able to choose their own medical provider and who can't and who find themselves as 34 million Americans do without any health insurance and 20 million more who are under served under coverage. So that dialogue then means that if we are serious rather than have the extreme on either side. People have to get involved in when I say people now not talking so much about the individual hospitals of this nation the physicians of this nation you know the pharmaceutical companies and recognize that there is going to be a change in health care as we know it. Either they participate in that by bringing their ideas in and working in a cooperative way to fashion something that everybody can live with or we find that taking place without them what I see now though are they are moving into the arena in that regard and are becoming willing and active participants. I don't know and no
one really knows what shape health care reform will take. All of us will concede however that there will be a major change in health care as we know in this country and the caucus will play a role and Oh absolutely absolutely. OK what are the other things on your agenda. You start it with an urban agenda. Well yeah the urban agenda we could talk all night about and I don't want to get away from it because I talked about affordable housing for the middle income public housing quality public housing for the poor but there's educational parity that has to exist in our public school systems we can't continue to have a two tiered system where people are so afraid. A For the safety of their children and the for the quality of education that they scrape whatever they have to put their child in the public school. Understand the private school understandably so because they want the best education and all those people who can't afford that then are left with the public school system. That school system want to be just as good and equity means being able to provide the sort of things through this federal government that brings up and lifts the standard of
quality education so that people don't have to suffer if they can't afford the option of a private school for their children. It also means educational opportunity in terms of post-secondary and other work for people who want to matriculate onward and then go into colleges and universities and to develop themselves further. They cannot do that when we threaten to cut back Pell Grants. When we do away with upward mobility programs in the private sector and when we continue to think that we have this system of state colleges they will take care of all the poor people in everyone else can go somewhere else and that sort of thing has to end crime and violence in our streets. I meant today for over an hour with the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement officials who have been working very hard with a lot of fanfare because of the sort of institutional racial racial polarized reporting that I talked about before. To put forth an agenda that deals with crime and violence in our streets. There has to be a Dan on assault weapons we can't continue to allow the
National Rifle Association and others to tell us that assault weapons are OK. You don't hunt deer with them you hunt people with them and those weapons are taking away people loved ones in our community on a daily basis. We've got to start banning certain types of munition sales making sure that licensing of firearm dealers is restricted to some extent and certainly overseen. And I guess I could talk about a number of things in that regard but I wanted to mention crime and violence in minority business development and a host of other issues not to mention creating a society where fatherhood is something that is cherished and respected. That motherhood is looked at in such a way that we bring the respect back into it both as men and others in the society and where we create a society where families in our communities and the idea of family is something that we start feeling good about again. All of us so that we're able to save as many of us as we can. There are two things that I want to talk to you about. One yesterday in Bill Clinton's inaugural speech he talked about sacrifice. In order to pull our deficit
in order to put the country back on economic track you talked about sacrifice. The other thing I'd like to talk to you about is self-help the black community doing it for ourselves. A lot of what is wrong. Yesterday we had a guest on who said that the problem with crime in our community cannot be stopped by the federal government as much as it can be stopped by the your neighbor who can call the police or or help you reprimand your children. Where in here does the black community have a responsibility to making sure that we take care of our own in housing and employment in schools. Where do we where do we pull away from the federal government and say it's time for us to do this for ourselves not at the federal government shouldn't be with us and legislate in our favor. But where is my responsibility to saving the race in this country. Well the a lot of honorable logic Muhammad said something in 1950s that was absolutely revolutionary in this country. That was part and parcel of the dialogue of our
communities for almost two decades when he said do for yourself it is a very basic concept. But people hear that and I assume to some extent means it means everybody but me well it doesn't. It really doesn't at all. And Booker T Washington said something revolutionary at the Atlantic Conference in 1896 when he said we must cast our buckets down where we are where that means if you are in a ghetto if you are in a job that you do not like if you find yourself in a situation where there is crime and violence around you or if you are in a situation where there are children who are hopeless and helpless in many respects we have to pick our own battlefields. Figure out what we want to do begin doing it in a small way people are still motivated by by action and not rhetoric and so is the simple eloquence of our own examples that motivate others to do things. I agree that that has to be done. I guess I also agree that we can't let the federal government off the hook in the process or any other
government for that matter who has the ability to legislate and to to prevent certain things again like I mentioned before this ban on assault weapons. But the concept of doing for self is something that was alive and very much oh well in some of our communities at one particular point that we have gotten away from but not entirely. When I look at groups like 100 Black Men and look at the efforts of some of the fraternities and sororities who don't get a lot of attention and I don't front page of posts or anything else. But they're doing it over and over again and even individuals who get far less attention because they decided to pick a battlefield cast their buckets down where they were to do for self and to win one life one block at a time. Let's get to the telephones and let the callers ask you a couple questions have a caller on the line welcome to even the exchange I had on our congressman if we may I think you want to camping. Governor Clinton repeatedly criticized the Bush policies and justice. But the he in effect is adopted the same
policy. Look in the CBC to get him to change his policy with President if you're going to build up a plan to get him to change his policy. Thank you. You're absolutely correct first of all the continuation for however short a term of this policy of George Bush which reminds me of the so called constructive engagement policy of Ronald Reagan with regard to South Africa. In my estimation it is wrong to fly here on a plane from Cuba. You are a hero. But to come here on a boat from Haiti there is something different about you that says you should not be allowed entry. I don't know how we can have a two tiered approach to our foreign or international policy with regard to refugees and at the same time say that we believe that refugees ought to at least be given safe refuge. The Congressional Black Caucus is communicating now to the administration in the clearest terms that with all due respect and while we are giving deference to the fact that the president has just assumed office in that this period
of honeymoon and transition and shake through must occur that we really expect we really really expect that this administration will understand that we cannot take that. Foolish approach into 1993 that we have to have in Haiti a restoration of democracy number one the return of Mista era Stebic who was duly elected by 67 percent of the vote number two and then an economic stimulus package as part of the kind of package that we would do to any of our neighbors in this hemisphere so that we create a situation in Haiti that people don't want to flee. They want to stay there and take care of their nation. If we don't do those three things then we really are not going to see stability there. And if the Congressional Black Caucus or anyone else does not advocate that then we have failed our mission so we believe that we have to communicate that in the clearest terms and that's what we've been doing. OK. We're going to take a short break and when we come back we're going to be added by another gentleman who has been fighting civil rights. Legal scholar Derek Bell. Stay with us.
Welcome back to evening exchange on the joy of Jefferson senior producer of culture of Monday has the week
off at the turn of the century voice warned America that the number one problem of the 20th century would be the color line as America hurled heralds itself toward the 21st century. The warnings of the boys are still ringing true. According to the FBI instances I can't talk right now I'm going to start reading the teleprompter. I'm going to introduce you somebody who I admire very much. He's Law Professor Derrick Bell. Derrick Bell was a very brave man who decided that you were going to leave Harvard because everyone says you don't think it's very bright. I think that the wooden question I was asking when you were asking what can the black community do what can we do as individuals. One of them is to confront discrimination. Not as a means of changing it necessarily but just as a means of letting those who are responsible for it know that there is opposition out there in it then
the other factor is the racism in its insidious destroys each of us as individuals and we are all harmed by we're all marbles that marks of oppression of the Cardan oversea written and what we can do is try to keep it off keep it off so that sometimes a lot of people have to stay in their jobs. I was fortunate enough to know that if I left Harvard I would be able to do something else. It would behoove me to pay for myself not to not to stay there and allow this kind of insult to my race and into me. Well for the members of the audience who don't know Dr. Bales case you left Harvard you were a tenured professor of law had been there since 1969 and you left because the university failed refused to tenure any other black people especially black women because we had a goodly number we have some outstanding black males there but we had 60 percent of our black students of the 200 black students there are women manifesting the same thing you were talking about in the earlier segment.
It percolates clear up to. The Harvard Law School level that means women black women are going to have to bear a heavy load of the leadership burden. They need to best educations they can get. And part of that education is modeling for us to see women like themselves. And we have some outstanding women in all teaching and we had a few of them that were visitors and the faculty just didn't see it's one of those things if if a truck had come along when the five of us black men were crossing the street and killed us all they would have run out hard as women and me immediately. But because when the truck didn't come they had us. If they get they had to recall that was that that that was that he had written about it. Why in just a matter of pressuring pressuring playing devil's advocate what beef earlier in your career you left the Justice Department. Getting rid of the advice of people who said you could fight harder if you stayed and you know they wanted me to resign from the NAACP or give up my membership. Right I was back in 1958.
But I mean a $2 membership give me a break. I mean how was that a conflict of interest. And it just didn't seem right. But once again you elected to leave and fight from the outside we find that more effective Well not who knows what's really effective. I guess I've I've found over my lifetime that you can leave a job for principle whether you're right or wrong. And in the world is not going to collapse that that something else is going to come up. When I left that job I went back and I started working as executive director of the Pittsburgh in ACP hardest job of my life. And in about a year later Thurgood Marshall was coming through one of his friends had told him about Howard left the Justice Department he said Boy. What's a what's a lawyer doing in a non-lawyer job. And before I could explain the world to come up and join me in New York. Well that's for any black lawyer. That was the ideal job and it came at a time when school desegregation when the sit ins were going to be
started a wonderful opportunity that I would have missed had I stayed there shuffling papers and given up my NAACP membership and my self-esteem at the same time. So my experience in my advice is that sometimes you can't give up your job. You know you have failed responsibilities. But a lot of times we're so afraid about the UN know and when you act on principle the Law Order someone is going to take care of you. Last week we did a show where we posed the question it was our show our salute to Dr. King we posed one question to our guest and to the audience in honoring Dr. King's dream. The question is what do we do now. Yeah where do we go from here. And I pose that same question and for our audience I want to let you know that Congressman Kweisi Mfume has has remained with Spencer and he said Oh yeah I mean posed that question to the two of you. What do we do now. Where do we go from here I know you're a leader of the Congressional Black Caucus but overall having come to the civil rights movement standing here now seven years
before we turn into a new century where do we go from here. What do we do now. Well I guess joy to be quite honest. There could be a lot of answers to that question and so I can only give you mine. Dr. King did not get us to the next frontier because an assassin's bullet got him. He got us to the front tier that we know so well about civil rights and civil justice and the protection of civil liberties. We have gotten to a point now where we are on the brink of that next frontier and in my belief I I honestly feel that it is economic empowerment as a people in this country that will then give us the opportunity to protect our institutions to embellish our culture to be able to do for self as we talked about earlier to make sure in many respects that we are able to hire and to broaden the base of our communities. That kind of economic empowerment that new frontier is what I think we have to look at and for me at
least in for for many others who advocate economic empowerment. That's something that I for to answer your question and I believe I have to do. But as I said there are a lot of different answers to that and I just think that's very very important from the from the perspective that I sit in now. Dr. Bell I think that's right. The thing that I would the way I would answer it a coup or with the congressman's answer that is if we look at King's life it was a growth. He started out is an integrationist. He in his life focused on the need for economic opportunity for whites as well as as blacks. You see he kept moving he didn't stay pat. And that so many of our civil rights groups need to move on. We can't be stuck with that. We're going to overcome someday in the integrationist mode you see. And if we just follow what King actually did I think that that would be the greatest tribute we kept growing. The other thing he did is he
recognized that there are some writings that were found after his death that he didn't see the lack of progress as a discouraging destructive thing. He saw the challenge of change and he saw that there was a character of triumph in standing up to the challenge that we as individuals have to see because this racism is deeply set. The resistance to the economic empowerment is is tremendous. You know back in the early 30s before the lawyers it ACP set on this idea of changing the law. There were some among them of the leadership w b the boy was one. There were others who said no we have to get economic. Straight but that seems so dangerous it seems so like some of the Marxism that was coming over and they want to have anything to do with it. So they went the other route and it's not that
we have done anything by that route. But we need to come back to the economic thing. But it is no less difficult. No fewer barriers today probably even more barriers. I was listening and being ever said at a lunch counter right now what it is and it is just as revolutionary because it is just as evolutionary. So if we don't grow and recognize it we move and we find that there are our greatest pain is from growing and changing. Then we miss a very important lesson that was really the lesson of King's life of Martin's life when you look at great people who are subject of change among us. There was this constant evolution and evolution and I think any movement among our people has to have that same evolution because if we're going to get lost on having a banquet and plan six months out of a year to sell tickets and not do anything of the six months of the year to bring about real and meaningful change in the head not evolving at all and have a banquet in a downtown hotel where they may bring in one black waiter and they make more money from that from the dinner and then there's the organization I was very happy to get and that everything focused this
year on D.C. government at the convention center and that this money stayed within the black community. OK. Let's take some telephone calls and see what the audience has to say welcome to evening exchange your on the line. Good evening. Really the same question you raised last Thursday with those two guests. The person from the National Geographic as well as Dr. Gilliam but you already did it so I'm not going to address that. I'll tell you the two problems I see and misinform me when you were a WPA as a as a host I remember your story is about a problematic question this may be a tough one for you to deal with all this will. And Mr. Bell when I listen to talk shows I see two objective opinion the blacks. One is that we should forge a war on programs and forget the whites or forge alliances with whites. Also when I look at the Congressional Black Caucus I see qualitative and quantitative differences. For example if I look at my Caspian Ron Dellums they see differences. And these people have got convictions but they have also got. Political constituents to deal with and
this is problematic Yes. How do you address your convictions and deal with our political constituents. You've got to go back to Trent and that problem I see in the Black Caucus thoughtful is only problematic if we see it as a hurdle or a stumbling block. If we see it as something that we get beyond and see ourselves beyond it then I think in many respects we have we have done the first thing we need. Thank God that we are different in many respects and have different motivations in our community otherwise we would be too predictable and very very much more vulnerable. The fact that you raise Mike Espy and Ron Dellums as two unique individuals who oftentimes are going in different paths. That's OK I said at the outset of this this program that it was not so much for me a matter of heading unanimity on issues as much as it was trying to bring the Congressional Black Caucus to a consensus recognizing that there are differences on issues but reaching a dense consensus that would then will allow us to move ahead and I think even as people we've got to recognize that we're not going to
be unanimous on a lot of things but where we can agree to the one the most part to get something done we have to move ahead that way. Otherwise it is a problem we look at it all day long we'll never get around it and it will besieged us and keep us from evolving or being affective. Let me ask you both are running out of time I have one question ask you both if indeed you got a chance you'll get a great opportunity to talk to President Clinton a lot. Hopefully this White House will have an open door policy toward the Congressional Black Caucus. But to both of you if you could say one thing to this man about the agenda what would that be Dr. Bell. I would say that he has to face up to the barrier that racism in this country poses for even the social reforms like health care that don't seem to have anything to do with race that those who are opposing those changes are insidiously efficient in using this sense of white preference in and.
Privilege in order to undermine and destroy social programs. And he has to recognize that that is there in has to be ready for it because it is going to be there. I mean I met the president yesterday evening at Mr. Mandela and I as he came to one of the balls and spent a bit of time with them and I said to him then in a very simple way remain true to the principles that got you here and always remember the bridge that got you across. I think if he does that so that he is not Candidate Clinton versus President Clinton and makes an earnest effort to do that then that history will record that he probably would will be successful doing anything else I think just breach trouble. OK. Thank you very much. We'll be right back. Stay with us. That's our show for tonight for those of you who may want to read more of Dr. Bales works. He has a new book out
called Faces at the bottom of the well and you can get it in the Washington bookstore. Congressman Dr. Bill thank you for joining us from all of us to all of you tonight.
Series
Evening Exchange
Episode
Congressional Black Caucus; Roe vs. Wade Anniversary; and Racism
Producing Organization
WHUT
Contributing Organization
WHUT (Washington, District of Columbia)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/293-03qv9sz0
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Description
Episode Description
The first segment looks at the ongoing debate of the Roe v. Wade decision on women's rights of access to legal abortions. Pro-choice speaker and author of "The Worst of Times" Patricia G. Miller and pro-life speaker Susan Smith were briefly interviewed. The second segment focused on the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) and its Chairman, Representative Kweisi Mfume of Baltimore, MD. He and Civil Rights lawyer Derrick Bell spoke about the future of the CBC in light of a newly elected Democratic president, Bill Clinton. Together they touched on topics like universal healthcare, civil rights enforcement versus legislation, urban policy and housing, and institutional and jounalistic racism.
Created Date
1993-01-21
Asset type
Episode
Topics
Social Issues
Women
Race and Ethnicity
Politics and Government
Rights
Copyright 1993 Howard University Television
Media type
Moving Image
Duration
00:59:30
Embed Code
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Credits
Distributor: WHUT-TV
Guest: Bell, Derrick
Guest: Mfume, Kweisi
Guest: Miller, Patricia
Guest: Smith, Susan
Host: Jefferson, Joia
Producer: Jefferson, Joia
Producing Organization: WHUT
AAPB Contributor Holdings
WHUT-TV (Howard University Television)
Identifier: (unknown)
Format: Betacam
Duration: 00:58:10
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Citations
Chicago: “Evening Exchange; Congressional Black Caucus; Roe vs. Wade Anniversary; and Racism,” 1993-01-21, WHUT, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 28, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-293-03qv9sz0.
MLA: “Evening Exchange; Congressional Black Caucus; Roe vs. Wade Anniversary; and Racism.” 1993-01-21. WHUT, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 28, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-293-03qv9sz0>.
APA: Evening Exchange; Congressional Black Caucus; Roe vs. Wade Anniversary; and Racism. Boston, MA: WHUT, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-293-03qv9sz0