Wisconsin Energy Report; 101

The following program has been made possible in part by grants from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Wisconsin humanities committee with additional funding from the Wisconsin Vittie AP media consortium and the Wisconsin Energy Coalition. And I want to. Well I'm Dave Iverson for the Wisconsin Energy Report. With this broadcast we begin a series of 10 reports on current energy issues as they are affecting our day to day lives here in Wisconsin energy shortages the subject of this program are something we all have to live with every day lines at gasoline pumps tight supplies of home heating fuels and rising costs are all constant reminders. Prices in particular seem to get a lot of attention but surprisingly in a statewide survey the question of

energy security how much will I have not so much how much will it cost. Top the list of people's concerns. On this edition of the Wisconsin Energy Report we're going to be taking a look at energy security in Wisconsin where our energy comes from how much we're using future supplies for the state and ways in which we can save. Wisconsin residents do have good cause to be concerned about energy shortages. We're an energy dependent state. Right now we import about 98 percent of the energy we use from other parts of the United States or from other countries. In nearly half of that 42 percent of our state's energy comes from oil. Now those figures may surprise some of you they surprise me but I doubt if they surprised our studio guest So let me introduce those people to you right now. First off Professor Brant McCown who's an associate professor of horticulture in environmental studies at the University of Wisconsin in Madison next to Professor McCown is Charles chickadee who is a former member of the Wisconsin Public Service Commission and also a

UW professor. And finally James Skiles director of the Energy Research Center for the College of Engineering also at the University of Wisconsin here in Madison. Gentlemen I want to start out this program by telling you a story on the way in to take this program this morning I ran out of gas which seems to me to be an interesting omen for both this program and the topic we're discussing how. Charles let me ask you this how how common a phenomenon is that going to be running out of gas in the future. Well I don't think it's going to be all that common in a general sense but certainly I don't think you're alone in terms of people running out of gas. I came pretty close to running out on the way in this one. I may run out and leaving so but I don't think the word we're looking at a problem of energy supply here in Wisconsin or any anyplace else in the near term future. I didn't get adequate electricity either to get adequate natural gas the oil situation depends upon foreign supplies more than anything else and how and in any crisis or

shortage those supplies are shared. Are we alarmists then and being concerned about energy supplies but you deal with renewable resources are how quickly are we going to have to turn to those as opposed to non renewables. I think you can probably get as many ideas on that that answer as you have individuals you're asked to answer to. It's a very difficult situation to get a handle on because there are so many variables that one one has to look at. I think we can look at a number of alternatives that we might turn to the states and we know research is just one of them. We might want to be able to use more of the energy resources that we have already that we're already using coal oil gas and stuff. We may want to look at some new energy sources solar wind particularly for Wisconsin and maybe some would energy renewable resources. We may want to do something that Charlie is very interested in that's adjusting the energy use we have now to make demand and consumer need better management type things or we may go to conservation.

What what's the what are we what should we be the most concerned about in terms of energy security Jim you deal with electrical supplies. Are we reaching a critical stage in that area is there a particular thing that we need to consume more so than say another source of energy. Well I think the electrical supply in Wisconsin in particular is in pretty good shape and has been for some time. I think you pointed out the beginning the big problem though is going to be petroleum and the big problem there is largely liquid fuels for transportation because we really don't have a satisfactory substitute for the internal combustion engine and that runs off of petroleum. You know you're all nodding your heads. But Charlie also said the beginning the problem that our future is relatively secure is there. Are you all in agreement there or not. Should we be doing this program I mean what how acute a situation do we really secure from the standpoint of assuming that the world stays on an even keel.

We really haven't developed a strategic stockpile of petroleum reserves. We do have a rationing program and that would be our insurance system that would go into effect if in fact there was a major. Disruption someplace in the world that would interrupt the flow of oil. We really don't have the stockpile so that we can continue to make up for any shortage that would occur. What the United States principal policy has been to do is to diversify the regions of the world from which we're getting petroleum and we've done that probably more than any other country at a certain amount in the Middle East certainly not from Latin America a certain amount from Africa a certain amount from from Asia and Indonesia certain amount from North America. So we've diversified our sources of supply and that's tended to make us as a nation somewhat more secure than other developed nations of the world. Is Wisconsin a less secure position because we do import almost everything. Ninety eight percent of what we use here. Is that it. Does that make it more difficult for us than California or Texas or someplace.

No because in all the crisis we've had when it was the oil embargo of 73 74 of the natural gas problems in 77 with the coal strike in 78 whatever the problem we've had we've always had a national response and a true national emergency or shortage as we've had in the past with energy. We've always come up with some kind of equitable sharing of energy sources throughout the nation. So I don't think you you should worry about that figure of 98 percent of our our energy is imported. We stockpile incredible amounts of coal to make electricity that's not going to be interrupted. We don't really need to have uranium for our nuclear plants coming in daily or anything like that so there's a considerable amount of energy particular on the electric side that's just not going to be affected by it. Natural gas is mostly domestically produced or produced in Canada and it's not likely Canada's going to disrupt the supply of gas to Wisconsin if for no other reason. The oil supplies for the populated parts of Canada go through

Wisconsin from the western provinces of Canada so that they're not going to declare war on us and cut off our energy without being prepared to have us do the same. So it's it's not the kind of thing that that I particularly worry about other than the situation that we have in stockpiles and that's been our weakness. And every president has tried to deal with it but somewhat unsuccessfully. And I think that's our most vulnerable position. We had more of a stockpile would be in much better shape of dealing with the world crises that seem to. You keyed around the energy issue. I make a comment there too that Wisconsin has a really remarkably diversified energy base that we're not nearly as dependent on one fuel source like even California heavily depended on oil and natural gas. Same thing with the northeastern part of the United States which is very heavily dependent imported oil. The diversity of our energy resources of coal nuclear and we're are dependent on oil but not the extent others are very much in our favor.

So we may be more secure than we really think we are that we're better off than some places are and that 42 percent that you mentioned of petroleum that's mostly because of our use of the automobile which if you take the automobile out which is some way you sometimes see the figures presented that is stationary energy use you find oil down quite a bit lower than than 42 percent and it's roughly picking up a quarter of what we're using with gas equal equalling it was a passing it and you know electricity also in there so you it depends how you look at the numbers and in that if you and the other thing about transportation is that Wisconsin's per capita gasoline usage that is gasoline transportation. It is much below the national average so if we have a national rationing scheme that's on an equal basis. Wisconsin would probably gain at the expense of the rest of the nation even if the amount being ration was less than we were using previously because we are below the national average with respect to the gasoline use Indeed we're below the

national average and overall energy use per capita in our conservation efforts have been far greater than in any other state. But we're going to we're going to get into a use of cars and transportation a little bit more later in the program but right now while we're talking some about energy use we want to take a closer look at energy use here in Wisconsin. So we've prepared some questions for you to take a look at right now on that topic of the following energy user groups which use the most energy in 1079 industry. Wholesale retail groups agriculture or consumers. The answer here is the you the consumer use the most energy 42 percent of the state's energy last year retail wholesale activities accounted for 30 percent. Industry accounted for 24 percent and agriculture only 4 percent. Next question which of these same user groups do you think did the best job of conserving energy in 1079 industry wholesale or

retail groups agriculture or consumers. The best answer here is not D as most people thought they felt that most consumers had done the best job of conserving but the actual actually the best answer here is really industry industry achieve the highest savings in our state and nationally over the last seven years. Industry has decreased its use of energy by 24 percent and one more question. Which of these four user groups do you think has the most potential to save energy over the next decade. The four groups again industry retail or wholesale groups agriculture or consumers. And the question and the answer here is consumers have the best choice for according to recent projected projections rather individual consumers weighs two thirds of the energy they consume and could save as much as half of that by measures such as home weatherization or modifying their driving habits. So we seem to have a situation here where the industry uses a fair

amount of energy but consumes fairly well consumers on the other hand use an awful lot of energy and have the most potential for energy savings don't do such a good job about that. Does that mean that in terms of preserving energy security as we were talking about it before that the focus for conservation has to be on consumers as opposed to other aspects of our society that we're the ones who've got to make a difference if we want to be secure. I think I think the focus on conservation should be on everybody but I think it's a very it's at the consumer. Obviously it you've already stated that we can really make tremendous headway and this is really an exciting area because this is where the consumer can make a direct personal effect on the total energy picture as a something consumer can do about it cheaply and something consumer can do immediately. And it's something similar to do where you can see real benefits right away. Both of the state and to his own community. So the conservation ethic and I think the stress on conservation should be increased so that we could do have a better program at the consumer level. We're beginning to get there.

Are you optimistic about the changes that have happened so far do you think that we've seen a enough progress in terms of consumer conservation or do we still have miles to go. Well I think there's a great deal more that can be done in this area and will be done but I think perhaps the most important thing is the consumers are getting a conservation ethic in their mind and I think this pervades not only their their own use in their homes but in transportation of their jobs. I think this is going to be a very long running effect. How do you do that how do you how do you change something like an ethic. Is it through the pocketbook. What are the what kind of methods you've been involved in in government. Certainly. How can you change I think two things are important if you're talking about the residential consumer that you and I and everybody else is sort of thinking about the use of energy in their home or in their own will be able to do two things. When you gotta do something about the information that they're getting and the other you have to do is you have to straighten out the prices that you're charging so that they make sense to people. The important goal in Wisconsin has been to eliminate any volume discount pricing

for electricity and natural gas that's been accomplished over the last several years and in the state. And I think that means now that people are recognizing that if they save their energy use in the home they're going to get more than a proportional saving or at least a proportional saving on their utility bills in the past that wasn't the case and regrettably throughout much of the country that's still the case. We've stopped that I think that's been proven. The second thing is you've got to give people good information. You've got to give them information on the utility bills about how much energy they're using. You also have to provide energy audits for them to let them know what it is that makes sense to give people information. As Brant says the cost savings are very dramatic over concepts of conservation compared with continuing to use energy. But getting the information out is the key thing is that that's why industry's done better by the way. Industries had it in their interest to find out that information because they use so much and it's such a big increase in their cost of doing business. The chief executive offices of the various companies have said what's happened.

And the information's had to be found. That hasn't had that you haven't had that same kind of information resource for residential customers but when it comes and it is coming in this state and somewhat more slowly around the rest of the nation I think you'll see a very dramatic reduction in energy use in the home. We're just expensive. Where does that into information come from your all of associated with the university should the university play a larger role in getting that information out is that local governments obviously can't offload just from the State House. I think everyone has a role there's a very large effort in the grade school and high school systems to build this and not just in scientific courses but in their government courses or economics courses their history it's pervades a lot of what they do in the high schools now and grade schools. Are there lessons we can learn from industry since they have done a better job so far as you say because it's been in their interest. What can we learn from what the big boys have

done so to speak. Most of what the big boys have done so far is to apply what I would call common sense to build big doors that used to be necessary and buildings forever cars to go in and have to times they be opened because people have to work in that same door so they put a small door next to it and it's common sense. And they did a lot of that and have done a lot of those things that save tremendous amounts of energy which in the past when energy was so inexpensive didn't make sense to do. We've got to do a lot of commonsense things too but people have to be reminded of it and they are being reminded through the dramatically high prices that we've had. But it takes time. Consumers aren't making day to day decisions on the kind of homes they have or the kind of automobiles they have. It takes a little bit longer. Industry is making more of those day to day decisions so they've done things that make sense more rapidly I think that's why the percentages for industry reduction are so very wrong.

One of the best sources of information is your neighbor. And we were just at a community meeting the other day and we were this question came up. Energy usage in your house it was very interesting to note that compared to previous years people are asking each other what are you doing in your house you know and the biggest thing that everybody seem to be doing lately was covering up the fireplaces that seem to be devolving our community anyway. So this information seems to spread once one person gets the ethic it seems to be a contagious thing after a while and I think this is where it's really encouraging. So perhaps it's even a role for you know neighborhood associations and that kind of thing I was I think very true this could be really something that they could be of a benefit in our community lives. Well first there's a Wisconsin Energy extension service that's been partially federally funded and the idea there is to try to repeat in energy the success that we've had nationwide on an agricultural experimental service to go around and share that information that principal is housed in the university on energy saving particularly in the less densely populated areas so that this information goes out. I also think the utilities have a very important role to play. They have

an obvious central place in the marketplace of energy supply and I think that it's in their interest as well as in their customers interest to now be preaching the conservation go and maybe even helping with conservation with things like audit some low interest loans and and rates that promote energy conservation in the Wisconsin utilities have been pretty much leading the nation with some prodding from state government but they really have been leading the nation in pushing this out there. I think that model should be exported to other states and we should continue to encourage our utilities to do as much as they have done as well as expand it. And it's really important to have a key role in this whole game. Let's let's talk a little bit closer look now at what conservation really means here in the kinds of things people are doing for many people in Wisconsin conservation has already become a way of life driving last turning down the thermostat using wood burning stoves and so forth. So we're going to take a look now at some examples of what people are

doing here in Wisconsin. First off how many Wisconsin residents do you think were actually turning down their thermostats in 1979 in order to save energy 30 percent 45 percent 60 percent 80 percent or 90 percent. The answer here is the last one 90 percent of all Wisconsin residents are in fact turning down their thermostats that's up 50 percent since the oil embargo of 1973 and 1078 studies show that the most frequent daytime and nighttime home temperature in Wisconsin was 72 degrees 70 degrees 68 degrees or 66 degrees. And the answer to that the most frequent temperature found in the survey was 68 degrees. Our next topic of burning with wood can save you money particularly if you have access to a free source of firewood of course. How many Wisconsin homeowners do you think are actually now using wood burning stove. 3 percent 7 percent 10

percent 12 percent or 19 percent. At last report nearly one out of every five homeowners in Wisconsin had installed wood burning stoves in other words answer 18 19 percent. We also asked people to rank the following conservation measures in order of their preference and they go like this. Reducing the use of appliances be driving less. See buying a gas saving car. Riding in a carpool or using public transportation. People rank these options in the order that they're already listed in other words 58 percent of our residents preferred reducing the use of appliances over other conservation options. Fifty six percent thought that driving last was an alright idea. Buying a gas saving car came in third at 37 percent carpooling with 16 percent in public transportation ranked last only 12 percent. Lastly as gas prices continue to rise driving less becomes more and more an easy

way to save both energy and just as importantly to save money. Rank the following personal transportation options according to preference. Using the car last reducing vacation or pleasure driving. More public transportation. Carpooling or no change at all in your personal transportation habits. I domy here is of special interest forty nine percent of the people who are asked this question said they would be unwilling to alter their driving habits. Going back up to the top of the list using the car last received a 38 percent approval rating less vacation or pleasure driving came in at 23 percent and public transportation and carpooling were low on that approval scale at 15 percent and 11 percent respectively. So it seems that people are willing to do some things less like use appliances but not so willing at all to do things like using public transportation or carpooling. Let's write if we can the kinds of things that people can do that can have the most impact in terms of saving energy and costs using as an example

using appliances less people are apparently most willing to do but is that really the kind of thing that's going to make a significant conservation. JR I think this is the place where education is important and telling people what is their energy come from where did they use it. In Wisconsin the average household over half the energy they use goes into heating the home about 50 14 to 15 percent goes in the heating hot water. So all the other uses are down the corridor of 30 35 percent. So appliance use itself is not a large amount of the total energy that you use. And clearly it's not the biggest target then for conservation. And I think this is why so much of the effort has been gone into winterizing homes insulation the like because you could attack the big energy users the home heating. Simple things about reducing your temperature your. Water Heater be sure you don't have leaking faucets can make significant changes in your energy patterns on on home heating to deal with.

Again renewable stuff. Wood burning is part of that. Were you surprised at that figure 90 percent have to have those kinds of stoves in. Is that again a significant way to go about saving it. Yeah I was surprised that a number of other statistics not only the wood burning stoves but also the the statistics on. The type of driving in the public transit. It kind of lets me. I would think this statistics are kind of biased toward the rural and the things this bill by the looks of it I can't believe that Milwaukee and Madison you have 1000 percent of people with wood burning stoves if you did you'd have a vest air pollution problem. I was sure that locking. The wood burning stove issue is a is a larger issue to address but there are some real problems with and I think the one issue or the one constraint that you had in your question was if you had a free supply what is absolutely necessary to make it a promising thing and then of course you put your labor and they can work also. So in other words it's not. I have for example an in oil burning heating system in my old house in and I've been thinking about what I can do to improve that because obviously that's not a

terribly secure feeling right now. But you would advise necessarily going out and buying an add on furnace to that wood burning stove unless I had a good supply of wood and the few had a good reliable supply of wood for it. For the far future right. Let's also Also you have to remember that and woodburning stove is a whole different lifestyle. Want to develop they essentially orient their lifestyle around the wood burning stove if you have to stoke it up every 8 to 12 hours and most of us anyway have to be there at that period of time and then you have a very nice automated system you have to get rid of the a schizm already put the Haitians when you have a stockpile the ashes where he put the wood when it's delivered and when you're cutting it. So there's a whole different lifestyle more really toward run the home which may be good for some people and does that for other people. What about one of the points that you have to make on this appliance situation is that most appliances are of course run by electricity and we don't have an electricity problem in Wisconsin. And also the source in terms of security of supply we also don't have a serious problem with respect to the availability of coal or nuclear fuel for that

matter to generate the electricity that's currently being generated in Wisconsin. The real problem we face in energy right now is the supply of liquids particularly liquid use for transportation and that's why it's so discouraging to see that half the people don't want to do anything to reduce their use of transportation. Let's let's spend the final few minutes for a program talking about that we started out this show a half hour ago by talking about running out of gas or inside it. And we're right back to that again and you know we're talking about changing ethics or changing attitudes and yet I had to pay a dollar 15 for a gallon of gas this morning in and now I'm going to date the show. Yes right. What you know and yet people are so willing to keep on driving if the pocketbook isn't going to change driving habits what in the world is. Well I think it I think that people aren't responding to what's actually happening I think that in 1979 the gas price increase that took place was about 65 percent over the entire year and the looking at the end of the year in

the beginning of the year gasoline use was down by 10 percent so that shows that people are honestly answering the questions and they're using in 1969 one sixth less gasoline. As a response well 10 percent less gasoline but their response to price was that when price went up 60 percent they cut their use by by 10 terms a response of 160. I think those prices are going to keep going up. If you understand oh PAC and if you understand the decontrol policies that we have in this nation for oil prices we're going to see $2 a gallon gasoline before too long and there's no there's no turning back that seems so odd. I think that all of that will be another 10 percent Well if you cut back 20 percent. On the use of gasoline that's a that's a significant numbers of people say they're not going to change their lifestyles around the car. They're not admitting what's actually happening out there. So she has the small car phenomena yars are getting more efficient and they're also getting quite a bit smaller. People aren't going to answer a survey

saying I'm going to go out and buy a new car. But in fact they are going to go out within the next few years and replace the car they have and it's going to be smaller and more fuel efficient but they're not going to say that's something they're going to do because it's in the distant future and are going to change that car they have for several reasons not just the price of gasoline some of those choices are going to be going to be forced upon us are not going to be a really option. Not only are they being forced upon us who are observing them taking place. All right we don't have is nobody saying that putting insulation in ceiling but everybody is doing it. Yeah and second kind of thing. All right with that we're going to have to wrap up this program. Thank you all very much for sharing with us your views today. Next week on the Wisconsin Energy Report we'll be taking a closer look at how energy costs and supplies are changing the ways in which we live what things are costing us more these days and how can we save our energy dollars. Thank you for watching. If you would like further information about the energy issues discussed on this program write to the Wisconsin Energy Report oneself parks room 6:53

Madison Wisconsin 5 3 7 0 6.