Spectrum Hawaii; 303; Interview with Knapp, Duckworth and Ellis

The following program is a production of key HEG in one of the low hopefully public television the following program has been funded in part by grants from the Hawaii State foundation on culture and the arts and the people are Chevron in Hawaii. You're. A day care a snap professor of drama at the University of Hawaii joined spectrum to introduce us to the leading representatives of 200 little cultural institutions. Dr. Donald Duckworth who is the director of the Bernice Bishop Museum and Mr. George Ellis director of the Honolulu Academy of Arts here is Mr. Terrence Knapp. Yes hello I very happy to be had on the spectrum Hawaii with

two of the state's most distinguished administrators and responsible men for the Bishop Museum and for the Honolulu Academy of the arts. My guests Mr. Donald Duck with the bishop and Mr. George Ellis of the Honolulu account of you know the odds. We saw the ball rolling by. Pondering some people's attitudes towards museums and galleries generally which is that they say the least of it somewhat overlord by such things as many people are by opera houses for example. They don't necessarily feel that galleries and museums have any place in their lives. What can one do to change ordinary people's feelings about great repositories and warehouses of culture and acquisitions over the centuries right. Don't you want to start out or should I be glad to.

I'm not sure that it is as common a problem as it might appear to be in some places perhaps. But I think we have more than little evidence from recent years activities for example on the mainland and in Western Europe that museum visitations are not only up but have been going up for some time. The last number that I've seen in print at least is over 300 million visitations the last year. The United States which is significantly more for example than those who attended sporting events. So really there is an extraordinary upturn in museum visitation that varies of course from institution to institution in place to place. Is that partly because there isn't a whole new set of attitudes that come about say in the past decade towards how museums and galleries can be presented to a public vote. So what's your read of the way of policy in philosophy then I think it's a little bit I don't know whether the word revolution is proper but there's definitely been an

evolution and that's And part of the desire to dispel the attitude that you just talked about Terry that being that museums are elitist institutions that museums cater to those who have spent only certain educational level certain educational levels et cetera. That has never been really true with a case of U.S. institutions U.S. institutions were formed for the people as opposed to special collections by the aristocracy in Europe. U.S. museums are people museums. I think that museums in general over the years didn't do as good a job in reaching the general public as they should have. But certainly in the last 10 15 20 years there has been a concerted effort to make museums of all kinds welcoming places places of education places of fun places that are not the or inspiring image then that you were conjuring up that it was America at an advantage when it started in on the collecting game in the sense that it's a

200 years old they should do for me and therefore was able to maybe pick and choose from the rest of the world as well as its own native artefacts and objects that might be desirable. No I don't think so I would think. Actually the reverse I would think if there was an. A country if you will that had an enormous advantage in that regard it would have to be the United Kingdom Great Britain. The period of empire if you will the 18th and 19th centuries provided Great Britain with almost world wide scope and and their outreach and activities coupled with people and infrastructure in a society which especially valued gathering and preserving. Yeah all of which of course ultimately flowed through that system back to the British Museum in its various guises and British Museum of Natural History and the main British Museum which might even says yes in many ways. OK so how did you both of you wanted to time please how did you actually

become interested in the whole business of museums and gather it isn't preservation and conservation to this day when you were a little boy or what. Let's go ahead George why I think I had this. Does that mean I not being quite old you know it doesn't take me a lot to remember back. That's true that's true. I was very fortunate. I grew up and Birmingham Alabama in a circumstance which was certainly not culturally oriented but I had a high school art teacher who was an extraordinary woman who in turn produced a number of people who continued to work in the arts at the college level the high school I went to only graduated 10 percent of the people in the college and I'm one of those instances that we I think like to use today to say that no you don't have to grow up with it. You have to have certain pivotal people at one point in your life who intrigue you who entrust you and who direct you in a way that's meaningful and I think that it can be a person but it can also be an institution. So really I think that an institution

with the right approach toward people I think this is especially important in Hawaii. I think that we have many many young people who who are there who have the desire to learn to experience the type of offerings that we present in our respective institutions. And it's back to our obligation to make sure that they're there that we are welcoming and it is possible to trigger that innate sense of something of us of learning and that is already offset delish. Sure that's part of that show is that the churches are in the throes of it I think so. What was the is jewish know the person that got you going. That's what you would touch you while I had a house where Laci was named Carol and she was a graduate of University of Georgia. There are a number of people as I said who graduated but I received a scholarship to University of Chicago and went to Chicago and it's a very long involved story and Donna wouldn't get to tell her that I'm very happy with my it's not nearly as exciting as that I share with George a common

heritage in the south I'm a native Tennesseean but I proceeded on to college and pursue to a degree in biology. And by the time I completed my undergraduate work I had decided to a series of things but primarily that I wanted to go on to graduate school in entomology which I did and that was is my area of specialty and it really was going into museums more from the standpoint of the kind of Entomology the kind of intimate biology that I pursued for research purposes. I ended up through great good fortune at the Smithsonian Institution where I worked for 15 years as a researcher as an entomologist and then as sure George would attest you go on and somehow you get involved in management and your scope expands and suddenly you find not only because we all collect as yourselves in a role beyond the normal human behavior right. OK I mean you have stamp collections calling connections all butterflies at home but that's beside the point try think George and I are probably both exceptions because we both know many of our colleagues who are in the business who are composed

yet collectors of of great skill and accomplishment. So I doubt that both of us are compulsive. But I know. Probably compulsive in different ways and reduces us sales basically do both as organize as administrators may have to take responsibility for very large scale planning and long term planning and I think we both in many ways run businesses. Yes we have and I do see in the museum business that's right has no unit changing the name of the game there. Well yes I think romantically dramatically in the last 10 15 years when you say George OK. Yes. Yeah Island is right but I have no I would say up to 15 years or so ago most museums at least in the United States were very natural evolutionary continuing as it was 900 century museum for additions you know the sort of temple of culture a kind that's the kind of back to back I open. Yes I was very much as I just as George said formulated in the context

of America and for the people as opposed to the European for the aristocracy but nonetheless you cannot wash out the fact that that many of the American population came from European background so the temple of culture the need for a large grand edifices and so forth translated in the same way. Then it began to change and what we now call third sector management the first and second sector been the public and the private is I think being generally recognised by both. Museum professionals and really the kind of areas as well as management professionals is a very unique and very demanding full fledged equivalent management challenge and we're in that kind of challenge. So we already just want to say I was going to add one thing and even in a sense of training for museums there's been an evolution of training and circumstances through there is no programs and certain programs and certain business schools around the country graduating and an arts administration for instance. And these are people also going to

various sectors of the nonprofit world. Then there are certain specific programs that are museum education programs. But for the MBA that's probably more significant because those people are being placed in business circumstances sometimes as the equal of the so-called artistic director and which is also causing certain problems which have been hasn't been resolved. That being just who really is in charge of the ship. But it's worked quite well in certain circumstances and to the advantage of many larger instant your case and it seems to me that two of the things that have affected not only museums and galleries but a great deal else in this world one is television of course right the impact of good television documentary and risk which in and around get I mean things like Kenneth. Mark Clark right and civilizational an example another many such cities as utilizing galleries and museums and that artefacts and so on is oval and the

other is of the good success of the great travelling exhibitions like I get to attend concerts and yes it was and all kinds of other wonderful things that that the has that affected us here in Hawaii do you think in terms of response to either the academy or to the Bishop Museum. Do you follow me in the wild as you possibly are but you're my senior in 10 years or so. Well I must say that the two of us combined don't have many years of experience and a wife however she is me and OK so you're both relatively relatively recent. I'm very real adventures here in Hawaii. That's correct but. But there's no question that television has affected audiences no matter where you are. There's no difference here. I think that in Hawaii our physical circumstances limit the kind of blockbuster shows that we can house Number one we're isolated geographically. The cost of transporting materials to Hawaii is much larger than it is on the mainland. Secondly the actual physical

space we have available yes is not adequate to house the exhibitions of the kind that you're referring to. Nor is our staff adequate yes to handle the complexity of handling shows of this kind. No those are for reasons they have no idea what you are at odds on certain facts right. Yeah do it yourself in the name of the game to learn how to vote in reference to why seems especially relevant. I think however television there's another dimension to television it's pervasiveness through time. I believe that at least in my area of the museum world television is responsible in another way for our increased visitation. I believe the television in ths excites and attracts but I think in the case of science museums and natural history museums that people are encouraged and in fact do come with their own knowledge or just subtly influence to come to see the real thing. It's one thing to see an elephant on an 18 or 19 or

25 inch television screen. It's another thing to stand by a mounted elephant and relate it to the video as a recommended easy ended you know and I think that's true for art yes for cultural items it's absolutely true. There is something that that's quite direct here in Hawaii and written in relation to the arts namely the program that was done on a series of Hawaii artists by the station. We recently had an exhibition of to dos Santos work at the academy. We ran that tape in the exhibition. There was an article in the newspaper undoubtedly due to the article in the newspaper the fact that the the tape that we ran had already run on public television affected the number of people that came to the exhibition. It was very well-attended happens to be one of Hawaii's best known and best artist. But nevertheless it was that combination of media all bearing brought to bear on our particular circumstance that brings people in the building. Yes. Tell me a little about your own institutions. Tell me about the Honolulu Academy the outset when when was it founded who founded it. Where did

its new beginnings coming from. It was founded actually a few years prior to its opening it was opened in 1907 the building was completed at the time so officially we lost nine thousand twenty seven. Founded by Mrs. Charles want to give Cook Island family who donated the property the museum is now on the original house was torn down and a section of the current structure as it exists was was built at that time a very pretty museum gallery isn't it a very very delightful ambiance and it's a wonderful place. It's on the state register of national sites both nationally and state. It's a beautiful building that has a kind of graciousness and charm and that makes it very welcoming when you come and it's one of the first thing I saw the building first in 1983 and I was overwhelmed. I always go to museums any city that I go to I if I haven't seen the museum I'll go they go. Spirit of the richest in the world interesting it is an age so too it makes it very nice

for us because when people come to watch and I'm sure this is the case with you Donna they don't come normally to go to a museum. They come to go to the beach and you got yourself a nice Mai Tai and sit down under a palm tree with a good book or play some tennis or golf or or whatever. The people that come into the academy are first of all charmed by the building. And then secondly when they look at the collection and not expecting anything to be there they're very impressed. So we have a leg up. You know immediately we have an audience who is very receptive when they walk in the door in their doubly enthused about the collection which they see the East-West aspect of the gallery is what makes it particularly attractive doesn't it. I mean this manager on two great traditions coming together head in Hawaii is one of the things that really makes this particular they get out of the hotel life and absolutely and the mix both east and west has been a very conscious thing from the inception of the museum the idea was to represent the different

cultures that make up the population of Hawaii to show through the marvelous works of art that our ancestors whether from the east or from the West have produced in an effort at least in one sense to create a better understanding and therefore a better appreciation of each other. Give very rich in. Donations right benefactors have been generous very witty in chatter you know what did I do in a moment oh yeah I remember the moment of course I'm going to mix in our collection down of which I believe is just stupendous in size as well as in quality. James Michener tells a great story about I've never heard his story about how he decided to give that collage of them to the cohorts but I don't know whether it's a bit tongue in cheek or not but nevertheless he says it's because of the love the aloha spirit in Hawaii that he was walking down the street and he requested directions from a policeman or and this policeman went completely out of their

way. It's a story when I think maybe picked about me personally where I was going and he looked at the museum then and he decided that with this combination of Aloha and this building and this these people and this state this was the best place a collection could not help it was not so friendly policeman are critical to this his assets are instituted at the yes anyway. What's your favorite. All one of your favorites in the collection. That's difficult to do I think it's difficult to let anyone idols Yes do you wooden scout on your body. I was on our membership poster this past year. That is one of the most beautiful objects I've ever seen anywhere in the world either to Mongolian ponies outside. I mean if I had the wherewithal to pick them up and take them away they wouldn't be there right now. They're too heavy I don't have any friends to do that either. Those horses on the side are a wonderful example of the integration of art and friendly players because they're the type of object that if you go you will frequently see

school kids riding the horses our side no we don't allow that to go on inside. But the horses are nice friendly circumstance. Can we move on to the Bishop Museum in a sense the Academy is a kind of how the contribution to the state has been that's and the Bishop Museum however has a very different beginning to a very different beginning and still is somewhere the the museum itself not unlike the Academy has a it's start at point is somewhat uncertain because one has to put together an organization to build a building and open up and basically we count ourselves as having been. In existence and since eighteen eighty nine brought into being through the efforts of Charles Reed bishop who had as much earlier as a much younger man at a much earlier time. Come to Hawaii somewhat by accident as a matter of fact having really been heading for the West Coast California to seek his fortune from the East Coast or if the ship

rounding the southern tip of South America encountered bad weather and some difficulties and it was blown badly off course and they put in to Honolulu for repairs. But he and his traveling companion another young businessman from New York State put ashore he liked it and ultimately end up staying here. Charles Reed bishop became the one of the most successful Hawai'i business men. The first banker in Hawaii and and a member of the Royal Council during his lifetime of adviser to Hawaii and kings and of course most importantly married a young woman that he met shortly after he arrived in Honolulu who ultimately became the last living descendant of the royal family. Bernice bishop and of course after her death. In 1893 he created the Bernese poet he Bishop Museum to receive all those memorabilia cultural materials and so forth from the company who may have

family which he had inherited from her at the time of her death was the particular intent. And that was the intent initially to essentially be the a treasure house of right on the house. However Charles Reed Bishop continued to lead a full and long life. And although he relocated from Honolulu not too long after his wife's death to San Francisco he continued to be interested in the museum and gradually expand its scope to cultural materials from not only Hawaii but throughout the Pacific and to include natural history materials plants and animals of land and sea from Hawaii and the Pacific so we have a very long history of gathering together vital materials at a time when had it not been the case that they were together would have probably been lost in this we really we represent any large. Collective memory as well not only of what it was but in a sense what it is. And from researches and efforts to study that data

base we try to contribute to better planning for what will be forever waiting to speak I get the impression that rarely you have of the responsibilities of a Smithsonian in Hawaii. Would that be. I think it is I think it's fair to make that analogy so long as it isn't carried to for debate is only going to help a thing isn't it and in many ways not just in any one of us. We do have a very broad scope in terms of intent so that we do have the challenge which we are currently. Undergoing a renewed effort redefining ourselves and making sure we have the proper focus we we do not for example include as the Smithsonian does a substantial amount of art museum activity and we do have some paintings and some works on paper which we have gathered together from the standpoint of our responsibility to to gather materials relative to the history

of Hawaii in the Pacific but we do not attempt for example to have enough of a lack stage activity going on oh yes and the right time for a session or a device maybe more than the Academy indulges in. I think the better of us certainly has a stronger research component then the Academy and it's traditionally having a role in the teaching institution as much as anything else in that sense then right. I decisive when I say things I would like to research yes. Research the riot of different types in both culture as well as in science. What do you see the future of the museum is being. Time is going by and the conversation will come to an end. But I would hate to leave it before you had a chance to give me some kind of vision of the future what that would take. We're going to I think we're going to be doing what we do better more efficiently and I think the most dramatic change that I see in the immediate future is that we're going to begin and have already begun and will

enhance that beginning of bringing more people into the museum to make the museum more important in the community the community more aware. I see it often and I'm pleased to say that if we are not first and foremost this city's museum and the state's museum then we really will not long be anyone else's museum. We must be a part of the pride of the people of the city and the people of the state in what we are. Just as they have pride in the Honolulu Academy of Art it's important that the. Do you feel that we basically are tuned into the museum and to the academy in fact those two is Jewish and part of their lives. Is that what you sense. And even though maybe much to be done a percentage of people are but not nearly as many as would benefit and what about school children do they. They brought to these two institution we had was right here on the program and I know you do also

initially but yes this is true of theatre we find that if children are exposed to the theatres of that age the chances are they might enjoy it later this spring that only an important part of both our operations we had for instance on guided tours alone organized activity some 23000 students who went through the academy last year out of a total of two hundred thirty five thousand people which is the largest attendance we've ever had. Yes there is. Interestingly enough though if you look at the demographic demographics of the US population the primary population to be served in years to come will be the adult population yes there will be there are adults seeking museum opportunities of one kind or another yes. Then there will be children. So not only are we looking at audience building at the end. And I'm still bringing opportunities to children but we're going to be looking very very hard at additional programming for adults. What are the most outstanding problems and where you would like to go and what you would like to accomplish is it money does it always boil I

knew ultimately everything boils down to money because resources are ultimately translated into money but money alone a short amount of time. I think George and I could both agree and George alluded to it a little bit earlier. It's very very difficult for example to mount exhibitions without the appropriate amount and type of space. Yes space requires a building and that takes time to do well and. Space is certainly one of my major problems. The pint pot is being filled. Oh yeah. Well collections are oh what we all know and they grow very much like interest on money in a Bank compound. We have large collections. I'll give you an example and I know all of it better because of my recency from the Smithsonian. We completed an inventory a year or so ago at the Smithsonian we have over 100 million things in the collections of the Smithsonian Institution those collections grow at a at a rate of roughly two to three percent per annum. Good lord and that translates into needs. Costs Yes. Yes ace

Yes conservation first started the presentation with those drums and we have the similar problem on a regular basis where I collect my mind quickly fascist of the Vatican and what they must have done over the past thousand years or so with all of the goods they have yes we're all going to leave and they have to have whatever you know. Their problem here is that there's a lot of people like them is a lot narrower right so did the time going by so quickly we are in fact at the end of the program doll George I'm very happy to have shed as half an hour with you and I hope the viewers have enjoyed listening to you as much as I have. Thank you very much as being a pleasure to be with you on. Spectrum Why divide it. Spectrum was funded in part by grants from the people of Chevron in

Hawaii and the Hawaii State foundation on culture and the arts.