Focus 580; Disposable People: New Slavery in the Global Economy

In this part of focus we were talking about slavery slavery in the world today. One might think perhaps that slavery is a thing of the past or if such a thing exists today that it's that small and exists and perhaps in in remote or dark corners of the world and in fact there is slavery today tens of millions of people that's estimated are enslaved and there are some very important differences between slavery today and slavery as we have seen it in the past. I mean this part of focus 580 will be talking with a man who is probably the world's leading expert on contemporary slavery. His name is Kevin Bales. He's principal lecturer at the Roehampton Institute at University of Surrey in England and he's authored a book on the subject if you would interested in reading more. You should look for the book the title is disposable. People knew slavery in the global economy. The book is published by the University of California Press. And as we talked this morning with Kevin Bales. You are certainly welcome. That is you folks who are listening are welcome to call and perhaps you'll have questions to ask we just ask that people try to be brief so that we can

work in as many different folks as possible. Keep things moving along during member you're sharing the space with others. So be generous. The number here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. We also have a toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us and that is 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 again locally 3 3 3 W I L L and toll free 800 2 2 2 w. while. Mr. Bales Hello Yes hello. Thank you for talking with us today. I'm very happy to be here. Some people have estimated as you report in your book that there are hundreds of millions of people in slavery in the world. Your figure is a bit more conservative but still we're talking about tens of millions of people. I do you know I put a research team on this. Quite a few years ago we trolled through every bit of information we could get from around the world built a database and came up with the number twenty seven million people that's using a narrow

definition of slavery. One of the reasons why some people came up with hundreds of millions of people in slavery is that they were using a very very broad definition including almost any kind of prison labor or any kind of sweatshop labor or any kind of child labor. We worked them. I've been working to a much more narrow definition that just says if someone is held by violence if they're paid absolutely nothing and they're being economically exploited that's what we count as a slave and bribes here right at the beginning we should make the point at least I believe that it is the case that everywhere in the world officially slavery is illegal. That's right. That's right. There are a number of noteworthy differences. When you make comparisons between slavery as we have noted in the past and slavery as we know it now. The fact that in the past for example purchased slaves would have been very expensive and that the relationship there between the owner and the slave would have gone over long term

perhaps. Actually over the life of the slave and because they were expensive and you had that sort of interest in this individual you would at least make an effort to try to to to care for that person here in the slavery that we see today. The differences are very very significant. Well that in fact there's a key difference an absolutely essential difference and that is that slaves today are cheaper than they've ever been in the history of well in human history as far as we know. They're absolutely cheap and they're cheaper by a tremendous margin. You know that the slave debt the average slave that you could purchase in say Mississippi in 1850 cost about one thousand eight hundred fifty dollars. That's about forty or fifty thousand dollars today. That's a very significant investment. And of course for that you want to build sale and you want title of ownership for that kind of big investment today for a number of reasons. The cost of slaves has fallen and fallen into ill. I

suppose an average slave around the world today might cost $100 or less. And and perhaps for that reason and certainly the title of the book suggests this that because they are cheap they are plentiful. They are also highly disposable. That's exactly right. The the basic equation. You know the basic economics of slavery which held for literally thousands of years that slaves were fairly expensive and you either needed to capture them or purchase them but you needed to probably care for them somewhat. I'm not saying slavery wasn't brutal it's always brutal. But that basic equation that basic reality of slavery had changed since probably since the Second World War. Slaves have become very cheap and for that reason they've stopped being like a piece of equipment that you buy that you invest in and they become like the kind of

inputs in a economic process like the plastic pans that you have to buy to have around the radio station there. You know no no one worries about who has title of ownership to one of those plastic pants that floats around and no one gets upset when you lose one. They're a disposable part of the production process. Is is the main thing that makes this possible is. Is it poverty. Is it the fact that there are there are so many people who are in such desperate straits that they may not quite not quite poverty. You know there's sort of two there are sort of three key factors to which contribute and then one which in a sense caps it off. There's the population explosion led to this vast number of people in the developing world. You know we went from two billion people to six billion people since forty one thousand forty five. But having a lot of people that doesn't turn them into slaves obviously. Now economic change

has meant that a lot of those people have also been pushed. Out of subsistence agriculture into even greater social and economic vulnerability. You know think of that. Think of the shanty towns in the in the developing world this around Mexico City or Jakarta or Delhi. Those people used to live in the countryside now they live in these shanty towns around the big cities and they don't have the support of their old village their old extended family and perhaps their religious institutions like that. They're very vulnerable that being poor and being numerous again doesn't make you into a slave to turn those poor vulnerable people into slaves to harvest them as slaves. You have to add violence and really the ability to use violence with with impunity and to do that you need government corruption. You need police and government to let you use violence against other people to turn them into slaves. Perhaps I should introduce again guest for this part of the show. We're speaking with Kevin Bales. He is principal lecturer at the Roehampton Institute and university of surgery

in England. And in fact talking with us from there he is the world's leading expert on contemporary slavery. And if you're interested in reading on this issue you should look for his book it's titled disposable people the subtitle is new slavery in the global economy and it is published by the University of California Press and questions are welcome. Three three three. Wy allow or 9 4 5 5. That's where champagne Urbana folks but anywhere you might be listening it would be a long distance call. You may use our toll free line that's 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. There are there are a number of forms of slavery the kind that probably people most think about that is if you do if you use that word what people will think of it as the individual that is it's someone who has captured someone who is sold into slavery perhaps someone who was born into slavery. And this is what we call chattel slavery that there are in fact places where this does this does

still exist. Yes that's right though it's fading. I have to say this old style of chattel slavery of the type which is diminishing around the world. If you go to Mauritania if you can include Sudan you can include Sudan in this. So that's actually a kind of war slavery. There are places where you still have chattel slavery probably in the some of the Gulf states and but in fact it's it's it's a type of slavery predicated on a higher value of slaves. Most of the world's slaves are in fact in a kind of debt bondage which operates exactly the same way in fact it's often hereditary I've met families in India who are in their fourth generation being bonded or enslaved against the tiny debt taken out by the great grandfather. So it works the same way but it has a slightly different cultural rationale to it or they're simply tricked into it you know promised a contract of good work and then brought to a situation in which violence is used to turn them into slaves

either as workers or prostitutes or domestic servants or something like that has certainly been an increase of that the United States. The trafficking of people into the United States and in their in slave meant to work as prostitutes or domestic servants. And then there is so that debt bondage. You write in the books of the most common form of slavery in the world there is also something called Contract slavery. Well and they may well be related. Yes yes I did that was my sort of my question I'm having difficulty deciding what exactly the difference is between those two. The difference is really about the way that you trick someone to make them a slave. But you know tricksters are tricky. You know they they'll use anything they can to achieve control over a person if they intend to enslave them. And so it means that sometimes people are offered a contract and then they're put into a situation that's that's. Debt bondage. Sometimes people are offered a loan but it's done as part of a contract. The contract is actually

fault that the accounting of the debt is actually false it's still just a kind of external way of justifying the use of violence to control people and for that reason because it's often fictitious. It's hard to tell the difference between them and really at base. It's not a question of contracts it's not even a question of debt. It's a question of controlling people through that violence. That's the core of slavery. We have a caller here someone on the cell phone so we don't want to make them wait we'll get right to them here are line number four. Hello. Yes. Yes go ahead. Question Are we buying a lot of products here. United States that have been produced with slave labor. It's very possible that you are. I mean the answer is yes you are. I wish I could tell you precisely which ones. We know that there is significant slave input in a number of commodities

steel from Brazil for example has some slave input most recently some work that I've done with some others created quite a stir just a few weeks ago over here in Europe because we discovered there was significant use of slave labor in the cocoa plantations in West Africa particularly in the Ivory Coast the Ivory Coast supplies between 45 and 50 percent of the world's cocoa which means something like 30 percent of the chocolate you eat. Could well probably does have a slave input. Then there is trinkets fireworks shoes possibly jewelry sugar. I mean the list goes on and on but I have to say I can't tell you precisely because one of the things that we're lacking that we're just really beginning is to have enough resources to do the kind of product tracing research that we need to do to really help Americans have the opportunity

not to buy slave made goods. Do you think something down the road will be published so we could be made aware of those types of products. Absolutely. Absolutely it's coming. One of the things that I've been working on in the last year is the establishment of a new organization in the United States which will be a sister organization to Anti-Slavery International and one of the key projects that we'll be working on for the United States is that product tracing in that publication. That sounds great. Thanks for your time. All right thank you for the call. And again other folks if you have questions you can call 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 as I believe that you are right in the book that if you look at the kinds of work that slaves do the most of them the most common category is agricultural work is that I remember that right. Yes certainly agricultural work and work with very basic resources and commodities. That's right for the for the largest number.

So so the products that might reach us as consumers are in a sense laundered in the in the world in the global commodity markets. You know when when cocoa produced by slaves comes out of West Africa it enters the world cocoa markets the cocoa futures market. And at that point you lose track of its national origin and that makes it difficult for us to trace it on to say you know which chocolate bar you know which which product actually contains the slave coca. Can you can we go on and perhaps give us some case studies. That is that will make this a little bit more concrete about the products in particular. Well I guess about it. Well yes but I guess I was thinking more about the the nature of slavery or really what it is we're. What it is we're talking about. Well I mean it's a classic example of this new kind of slavery which in which people are are much cheaper and much more disposable is what happens in Thailand when young women are enslaved to work in

brothels in prostitution. And this is not for sex tourism this is not about Westerners coming though this is for local working class time in their 14 or 15 years old when they're sold or captured or kidnapped and and purchased by a brothel. The average price is about a thousand to $2000 which actually makes them one of the most expensive slaves in the world. And the economic equation is altered so that these young women against the purchase price of say $2000 are actually able to generate something like 75 to 85 thousand dollars profit each year there. It's because they're forced into prostitution and they're forced to service if that's the right word. Something like 15 min a night or a day they do that without any kind of breaks. And they're disposable in the sense that since they are making such high profits and since they're so cheap to

buy when they finally acquire HIV or some other significant injury or they become very troublesome the people who control these brothels just either kill them or throw them out. Because they know they're easy to replace. So normally they're only use for three or four years. And that's you know the particular increased brutality that exists with these new kinds of slavery. We have another cause is also cell phones. Again we'll go here to line number four. Hello. Yes indeed one of my real deep concerns is you know a lack of publishing we thank you for for raising this issue. But often it's no decent folk rise up in righteous indignation in revulsion at both the nations that would condone this and also you know any course any corporation that would take part in that it just seems so repugnant just to human kind to to own another individual much less to abuse them in the manner

you're describing how do I thank you for holding this up for some published data. It disturbs me as you quite cats but you know I do thank you sir. Really. Yeah well I do. Say that you'll be learning more about this in the future. There's a growing amount of publicity we we recently completed along a full scale documentary film which was broadcast in Europe will be broadcast in the United States. In an edited form in December but also the new organization which is being established in the United States will be bringing this more and more to the front. And I'm very happy to say the American government has been actually doing much more to address this issue than some of the other governments around the world so that the bill that was passed about three weeks ago about human trafficking and amazingly passed unanimously in the U.S. Senate

is is a very forward thinking piece of legislation and far beyond what most countries are enacting. So I certainly empathize with the man who says I'm disturbed and upset and I one of the things that I'm very pleased about is that particularly in the United States people feel upset when they learn about contemporary slavery. And I just hope that soon we'll be able to give them a mechanism by which they can act on those strong feelings. The book has chapters devoted to particular countries Thailand more Tamia Brazil Pakistan India and. I'm sure you know many suggest that's the only place that this oh my no might have been but one does wonder in the relationship between formal relationship between the government of the United States and these governments. Is this something that that is an issue is it discussed. Oh yes it should be it and it's discussed somewhat. I'm afraid as best I can say President Clinton recently put forward the idea of a presidential directive that would prohibit the

importation of slave made products from certain countries. Now this is a bit odd to my mind because the 930 Tariff Act which is still in force prohibits all slave made products from entering the United States. And I think we just need to enforce the laws that we've got on the books. But at the same time it's also true that politicians have not necessarily made this a key point of foreign policy in the past because their constituents were not aware of it and the constituents weren't pushing them. At the moment there are some politicians like Senator Brownback from Kansas who has made this a special interest and who was one of the key sponsors of the bill that recently passed. So I think it's coming that they'll be more of a anti-slavery dimension to our foreign policy. But we do have to make it very clear that I think the politicians that Americans aren't going to stand still while they play politics with slavery which is

sort of what this presidential directives are doing. Our guest again to introduce him Kevin Bales. He is principal lecturer at the University of Surrey in England and has authored a book that explores this subject so if you're interested in reading more you should look for the book it's titled disposable people new slavery in the global. Me and it is published by the University of California Press. And again questions welcome we have a couple of people we'll get right to. If you're in Champaign Urbana where we are 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and we do have that toll free line good anywhere that you can hear us. It would be long distance call 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. We have to Urbana people will take them in the order they came in starting with line 1. Hello. Hello. Yes. Yes I've read a few articles in The New York Times about this. I think over the last number of years it has been mandatory all writers writing about this and it seems that there's there is often a religious basis for this

or that happens it within religious groups. And could you speak to that. Well there are in some countries a there is a religious justification for enslaving others. Just as there was in the United States before the Civil War in the American south there was a religious justification. But I have to say that that's not terribly common but it is the case in some places Sudan being one and Mauritania being another in Thailand there is also a kind of rationale in the Buddhism which is practiced that if a person is enslaved then they really should accept their fate and try to live with it. But it has to be said as well. Lest anyone think I'm I'm trying to say something harsh against the religion of Islam that if you read the Koran it very strictly says that this is not not the way to go at all. It's its local interpretation which has made this the case in the most part. I mean the

these kind of justifications around the world don't come in. Slavery has become a really equal opportunity employer. And most slavery occurs from an economic motivation not a religious motivation. All right. Thank you. I think also when we talked a bit earlier about the differences between new slavery and old slavery again one of the differences here. One thing that characterizes new slavery is that in many cases there is no there is no ethnic to. That's right and that is it's not it's not people of one ethnic group or background enslaving another it may indeed people to be of the same ethnic background and the important factor that the distinction is class or power which probably sort of may go hand in hand but certainly it's the imbalance of power that makes it possible that and the other distinctions probably are may well be not important. That's it. That's exactly right. Another caller this is also Urbana. This is line two. Hello.

Yeah this is a really timely Yeah. Today's Daily Online I have a story from Daily Californian about a fellow called Reddy who's an alumnus of Berkeley and he's being charged with having imported Indian He's an Indian pointing Indian woman for sex for many years and they just happen to find out because one of the one of the girls he had stashed in some apartment house died of carbon monoxide poisoning and they caught him dragging the body out while her roommate was screaming. You know and they looked into it and found out that they have false identities and they think that he's been doing it for years. He makes more than a million dollars and rents from real estate in Berkeley and other

relatives are actually sticking up for him saying that his good deeds in the in the area more than compensates for what he's been doing. Have you heard about that. In fact I was out in California when he was arrested this was last spring early last spring and this is a case it's ongoing I think it's actually a trial now. It's certainly indicative of the kind of trafficking in human beings that the CIA explored very carefully late last year. They published a report that said that they believe that conservatively something like 50000 women and children particularly and some men are being imported into the United States as trafficked people who tend to be enslaved into the occupations that that they're being held in like prostitution or domestic service. So this particular case is just one of the many tips of a very large iceberg which are

becoming more and more visible as people become more and more aware that it's possible that slavery exists around them. I've certainly seen the same met people who have been enslaved in Washington D.C. and in Los Angeles and in other parts the United States. And they weren't rare. They weren't rare instances. They were certainly part of a larger pattern of trafficking in the United States. A couple of things. I was listening to go a lot on my people TV channel and France to the news channel. Terrified and they've been another reason this is kind of timely is because last week they were covering this trial that was going on where apparently a French tourist in Thailand I believe it was had been photographed

walking away with with an underage girl. And now he's being tried in France for. That's right that that that that particular child actually was in slaved into sex tourism. This is a trial of a pedophile in in France and it's a very interesting movement in the European countries that they have now Ingle and enacted laws most of the Western European countries have enacted laws which allow a sex crime against a child in another country to be prosecuted in someone's home country. So there have been similar prosecutions in France and Denmark Sweden and Germany where Minn who have gone to use children for sexual purposes in the developing world have been arrested convicted and imprisoned for that crime. But in their home countries. I wonder about the prospects of that happening here by the let me ask you one one final thing I doubt quickly.

I was just wondering out when you said that violence is a necessary component to this. Is are any kind of thought of fault that can be attributed to U.S. support of some of these very violent regimes that we have a history of having supported. It's certainly true that violence becomes widely available in situations of economic political turmoil. You know you get to a situation like western Brazil or lots of Central America where it where it's simply chaotic and that chaotic that instability can be caused by a number of factors but certainly the intervention you know the negative kinds of intervention by outside governments has contributed to that chaotic instability that chaotic instability creates a context in which people can use violence with impunity where they don't have to worry about laws being enforced against them when they enslave people. And in that

regard yes anything that helps create that instability and that context of violence will aid slavery. We talk a little bit earlier in the hour about the fact that your your. Estimate your best guess of the number of slaves in the world today twenty seven million. What do you have a feeling for. Of those 27 million how many of them are children. Oh my goodness. Of course it depends on how you define child is actually an argument going on about that in in the United Nations and like that. But I would suspect 8 to 10 million of those 27 perhaps a verily a very significant number because you know one of the almost define almost defining characteristics of slaves is their vulnerability and children and women particularly in many traditional cultures are much more vulnerable and mate that makes them easier to enslave and to hold as slaves. We have again another caller this will be in champagne it's line. Number one.

Yeah. Just a sort of historical note. You guys were talking a little while ago about how this is not like race based slavery race based slavery was actually fairly unusual. It sounds familiar. I won't call myself a scholar of this but I've read a number of books on it such as. Stanley OK in this book Slavery It sounds to me like the see this pattern is much more like slavery in the ancient world where it wasn't necessarily race based it was just it was really quite fundamentally power based and that and in many ways the race based slavery of the United States was actually kind of an aberration as far as slavery goes. I mean. Doesn't make it in reading or writing or anything like that. I'm not saying that it just it seems to me like this is more of a kind of a primal human chatter now it's reemerging not a very good

point you've made because it's one of the things Americans particularly tend to do is to hold in their mind when they say the word slavery they hold in their mind this picture of African chattel based slavery of 19th century slavery but of course slavery is is you know two things that we should remember. It's ancient It goes all the way back to the very beginnings of human history. You know one of the very first written documents that we have written by a human being is a bill of sale for a slave from 3000 4000 years ago. Also it's a relationship. It's a social and economic relationship between two people. You know it's one marked by violence and control and it's and exploitation. But it's still a relationship and like all human relationships it changes over time and it's controlled by the political context like that. So it alters and evolves and like that the kind of slavery that we had in say 1850 is not going to be the kind of slavery have in the year 2000 anymore than you know if somebody got married today they would expect to have a marriage like the marriage of 1850.

You know we these social institutions involved in slavery is evil. Yeah I just it seems to me that you're right I guess are sort of the same America. And our vision of slavery is very focused on you know the the John Calhoun version. But but but actually it really sounds to me like if we want to get some understanding over the phenomenon that a little more broad historical looking would probably do pretty good we would be very helpful. But anyway thanks much. Thank you for the call. Let's continue here we have a caller in Charleston line number four. Hello. Yes I think and relation to what your previous caller I think can be stepped up after the Industrial Revolution when wage slavery came into play and what still exists today for all of the working class because

they contract whether it's written or unwritten that wage slave has no alternative except jail or coppery and being a beggar behind to wages. And the whole thing in more modern society is based on money and whether you get it or not is absolutely no concern to the employer or to the source of money thereby in my estimation leaving as they were the majority of human kind falls into that category. I'll hang up and listen. Thank you. Thanks I understand your point but I have to say I I don't go that that route. I don't find wage slavery as a kind of slavery I define slavery as someone who receives no money no pay whatsoever who is held against their will who is held through violence. I don't count a person working in a sweat shop as being a slave. I think that's a terrible

situation. I think it's super exploitation I think it should not be allowed. But I don't define that as slavery and I am very concerned about the dilution of the definition of slavery the dilution of the idea of slavery that we have a horrific violation of human rights in slavery and yet the word you know begins to be diluted so that we have people who are slaves to chocolate and slaves to love. And in fact at one point the United Nations even called incest a form of slavery. It's bad enough as incest you don't have to call it slavery. No I think we have narrow back down and say slavery is what slavery is which is people being controlled by violence and being paid nothing and being economically exploited. Earlier again as we were talking about the differences between old slavery and new slavery we talk a little bit about this. Fact that new slavery the relationship between the owner and the slave is short term rather than long term. The slaves are disposable rather than maintained. And I wonder when you look at forms of

slavery like debt bondage and contract slavery where in theory it is possible for the person to work out the terms of the contract to work off the debt. Whether in fact people do manage to work their way out of slavery or is that in fact in most cases simply not possible in most and in virtually all cases. In fact I've never found one in which anyone's been able to work their way out. It's it's a lie that the concept of the contract or the concept of being able to work your way out of the debt is simply a lie. It's just a cover. I've never known one that worked that way and I think it's important that to understand that debt bondage is practiced in most of the Indian subcontinent doesn't allow you to work your way out of debt. Your work and your life your body is in fact collateral. It's not repayment. So all

the work that you do only counts as as it were interest paid. It doesn't count as repaying the principal of the debt so that if there is to be a repayment it has to come from outside your productive labor. This is something most people don't quite get about debt bondage because it's a bit alien to us we tend to think well you borrow money you pay it back through your work but in fact the work of a debt bonded worker does not repay the debt. About 10 minutes left in this part of focus 580 again to introduce our guest We're speaking with Kevin Bales. He is currently principal lecturer at the University of Surrey in England and is probably the world's leading expert on contemporary slavery. And if you'd like to read more on this subject you can look for his book. We've mentioned here a couple of times the title disposable people. The subtitle is new slavery in the global economy and it's published by the University of California Press. And let me throw in a plug here. Right ahead and then just say I signed over all my royalties to this book.

I don't make a penny from it. All the proceeds go to Anti-Slavery International which is a charity which works with slave people in slavery. So if you want to do something to help slaves one of the first things you can do is by my book read it to learn about it but also the purchase royalties go to help people who are in slavery. So and that also gives me the right to be shameless about saying Go buy it because I don't make a penny from it. We have a we talked a bit earlier about your efforts and many people's efforts to try to track what happens to those things commodities and goods produced by slave labor. So that then people could could look at what they're buying and one would hope that if they knew that something had been manufactured with slave labor they would buy. So that would be indeed one thing that an individual if you had that information could do. Having said that what are some other things that might be

done and perhaps here again where I suppose we're talking about governmental levels to two if not end slavery then at least make a make a big reduction in it. Well or in fact Dave. It's about taking that first step. We really are at the beginnings the very beginnings of a new abolitionist movement. People are beginning to become aware of contemporary forms of slavery and are beginning to feel that true terrific revulsion that that earlier caller talked about. It says that you know I don't want to live in a world with slavery because you know in a sense you have to ask yourself Am I willing to live in a world with slavery. And if you're not then you have to say well what do I have to do first and in some ways the absolute first step is just to get a little more information too to find out about what's going on. Now once that's done you're right. It's a question of. Trying to make sure that we don't buy into slavery but also to make sure that our government

officials make it a priority to let them know that we make it a priority. It at one level it's not going to be an enormous problem just to dramatically reduce slavery because you know we don't have to win the moral argument. No one believes it's a good idea anymore and we don't have to win the legal argument because the laws are in place. We have to get other governments to enforce the laws they already have on their books and we don't have to win an economic argument because you know you know the economy of no country or industry is threatened if you remove slavery you know if you remove slavery you're going to harm some slaveholders but you're not going to harm any whole country. So in some ways because it's been a fairly small economic phenomenon that's one of the reasons it's kind of fallen off the radar screen. But we just need to say very clearly to our elected representatives we want slavery to be part of our foreign policy and we want to be part of our domestic policy as well was so that we do the right thing about people who are who are trafficked into

our country. But the new bill that was recently passed goes a long way in that direction. Here we have some other callers the next person is in Oakwood. This is line 1. Hello. A couple question there kind of. I heard about a group for a I went and purchased back some of the economic slaves like your comp here like you said that they worked off the principle interest but they don't get the reprints they were buying some of the people back doesn't really help. And the second question was you know you talked about Thailand and making so much money these brothels making so much money how do the patrons of these org places realize what is happening or just turn a blind eye to it because it benefits them in some way. Well the patrons sure do turn a blind eye. I mean they the average these are working class brothels and I have to say the average working class Thai man goes to a brothel when he's drunk out of his mind

and he doesn't pay attention to what's happening and he goes there with his with his friends and they literally buy rounds of prostitutes the way people might buy a round of drinks in the bar. And it's and they don't they don't they don't pay attention to the tremendous harm that they're causing. In terms of buying slaves back I suspect you're the ones that you're thinking of are not the ones about debt bondage but are the ones and the slaves have been purchased back in Sudan. There's a there's a kind of there's a war going on there a civil war and militias supported by the Sudanese government have been capturing slaves in the south of Sudan from the Dinka and the Nuer tribes in the south. Some groups particularly American groups have been buying those slaves back. It's certainly a way to free those individuals. It's not probably the way to end slavery in Sudan that needs an arms embargo and some intervention by the United Nations and like that

that's it that's really the situation there. Thank you and again to another caller. Champagne county line for Hello. Hi I heard a statistic just recently that the traffic of women and slaves overtaken traffic and trucks first value target was staggering. I want to talk about I don't know if you can. Explicitly mentioned Burma. Some of the Thai prostitutes are actually Burma. That's right that's right. The other thing is that they have a fork there uses slave labor in their own state enterprises etc.. And it's interesting to note it hasn't been commented on that. However the company that Vice President Dick Cheney is associated with is benefiting from slave labor and in the sense that they have the contract for the oil pipeline that's the underwater portion of the pipeline that connects to the floor it built. In other words they

are they are. In fact there's several very large extraction companies who have been working with the Burmese government. One French and one British and American companies and into there's also a Canadian company involved. It's definitely transnational But the point being that you know our economics are overwhelming and we have the. Complicity of a corporate power. I think that but actually you know it. You could say I'm digressing but I think it's a kind of pork pie and it's not all just smallholder. A lot of people are benefiting from. You're absolutely right. Thanks very much and thanks. And in fact the United Nations and the International Labor Organization has absolutely proven there is no doubt about this use of slave labor by the Burmese government there is no doubt whatsoever a top panel was sent by the United Nations and they is absolutely completely clear. Do they actually build this pipeline

for these West these big multinationals the answer is No. But are they being used to build the roads alongside the pipeline will be answered. Yes there is. They're using slave the Burmese government is using slave labor to support this foreign investment to build the infrastructure of this foreign investment. And it's a shocking state of affairs and some government some state and local governments in the United States have responded with. Laws that say they will not buy or invent buy products from Burma or investing in Burma. Those have been challenged in the courts in the United States by big corporations who say that say a city like Champaign Urbana does not have the right to make foreign policy. That's still up for up for discussion and I think people should have the choice whether or not their tax dollars actually go off to help a government which inflates its own people. And then one of the thing we haven't touched here unfortunately we don't really have the time but I guess I feel

compelled to mention that lest people come away with this since we've been talking about places like Pakistan and India and Africa thinking this is somehow a third world sort of issue or a developing country issue there are a significant numbers of slaves that are being held by first world people in probably some of the largest cities in the industrialized world certainly in the United States. I've met them and even the CIA says 50000 a year into the United States. That's right. Well I wish that we had time to continue. But we'll have to leave it right here because that's the end of the time. Can I throw in a quick e-mail address if anybody wants information. You certainly met in apt. Free the Slaves dot net. OK free the slaves all one word dot net. All right and certainly if people want to read more on this issue they can look for the book that we have mentioned titled disposable people knew slavery in the global economy published by the University of California Press by Kevin Bales currently his principal lecturer at University of Surrey

in England. And Mr. Bales I want to say to you thank you very very much for talking with us today. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you.