The Great Depression [staff education: video: day two]

With that program which is the story you'll probably want ministration in New York City. So obviously it's kind of strange carrying a Democratic president. Carrying out a program. To the air conditioning. What are you doing here. Thank you. And we have. Four people at least speaking to us today. So. I'm going to. Really try to. Watch the clock very carefully. Our first speaker is. Heather. Slesinger who's currently at the City University of New York. He's written widely on this period that perhaps the book. Or the set of books. That him. Have really. Done. Just stand to our understanding of the history of the period in his three volume. Study of the New Deal the crisis of the order to come in the New Deal and the politics of upheaval.

A wonderful study which I must say the book itself inspired our choice of trying to bring the character of the Lord of the entire series and having made that decision. We went on. Contact with Professor Kestner. Professor Slesinger is going to be talking to us about. The new. Year. I'm going to leave. LaGuardia in New York City to Kestner though I live in New York City now I did not live there in the. Days of the New Deal. So my. Testimony would not be very relevant. I think historians are often struck. As I am today by the certain disjunction between the impressions and memories of participants in the historical period and the. Patterns that crystallized the way historians of other generations come to come to see it. Sometimes this disjunction becomes so cute that it puts in doubt the. Whole

possibility of the historical. Enterprise. But I think it does raise an interesting question and that is how valuable. Is so to speak. Eyewitness testimony the testimony of people who were there. I'm struck and to what extent is it can this eyewitness testimony. Be. Disregarded or absorbed by. Historians would come around long later. And perhaps operating on some version of them. Karl Marx is the old doctrine of false consciousness. I assume that the people at the time didn't didn't know what they were really feeling and that the historian later much wiser. Can Tell. What was really passing through people's minds. Well I began writing history about the Jacksonian period. And then the United

States in the 1830s. And what an impression one got from immersion in the literature of the Jacksonian days was the extreme bitterness of the political conflict. So I wrote a book. Reporting that time has changed. Eisenhower became president. We had the. Consensus became the watchword of historians and people from the 1950s looking back at the age of Jackson. Decided that Jack the Democrats and the Whigs were deceiving themselves when they thought they were strong issues between them but really they were all alike. They were all expecting capitalists and. And. And they all were acquisitive and home and that therefore the political battle at that time was when historians told me it was all claptrap. All false consciousness. I sometimes think the same thing is happening to the New Deal period. I think

some of it it's happening partly with the Hoover. FDR contrast. I regret very much that. The fact that the first shuttle from New York on Sundays. Not leave till eight thirty prevented me from arriving in time to hear Joan Hoff. But one of the questions that arises is if. As some historians contend Hoover was a great progressive and Roosevelt a great conservative why did the people with the time in 1933 get a sense of such a break up such an immense change taking place. And. I think it's not sufficient to explain that change has or simply in terms of personal characteristics that is a replacement of a glum word humorless negative personality by a cheerful confident boy and. Affirmative personality. That is seen as me only only part of the heart of the story.

But let's go back. First let me make a few comments here because it seems to me that there was a recent historical tendency to emphasize a continuity between the Hoover administration and the New Deal. And the impression one got at that time was of an immense discontinuity. And I think this it is worth some. Exploration. Herbert Hoover himself in the last his last speech in the 1932 campaign made the point. That the contest was not between two men not between two parties but between two philosophies. And I think we should give Hoover credit for believing what he said. And I think Roosevelt also equally believed that the contest between two philosophies and I would say wasn't really an opposition between so much being a negative personality. And. An affirmative personality as it was a

contrast between negative government and affirmative government. I mean they really had different very different views as to the role of government. And. The application of the adjective progressive. To Herbert Hoover. Never seemed to me convincing in a political sense. Clearly he was a modern man in the sense he was an engineer that he believed in modern methods of publicity and believe in modern methods of organization. But was he a progressive in the sense of the term that was used during the day I mean progressive really mean meant the heirs of the tradition of Theodore Roosevelt and. Bob Follet within the Republican Party and there were progressive Republicans. Such people as George W.. Norris of Nebraska. As. Bob La Follette Jr.. From Wisconsin. And Harold Ickes from

Chicago. That's Henry Wallace of Iowa and Pincio Pennsylvania. These were the inheritors and exit executor of the progressive tradition in the Republican Party and without exception they detested Herbert Hoover. They opposed him in 1932. Some of them opposed him in 1928. They did not need authentic progressive Republicans did not regard Herbert Hoover as a progressive. And later most of them. In other Bronston cubbing. Of New Mexico. Jim cousins of Michigan there are a whole collection. Of progressive Republicans. And nearly without exception they were. Opposed to Hoover. They supported Roosevelt. Some of them like Ikey's and all of a sudden found themselves. In Roosevelt's cabinet. So I do think that there was a very you know the specter here I turned to cast we're all alike but it all depends on the level of analysis which one employs. But I I do not

think that the people of the time felt there was a great issue between Roosevelt and Hoover and who felt that a great discontinuity when the New Deal came in I don't think there were deceiving themselves. And therefore. I would not suggest that future generations see them themselves but over emphasizing the continuity and how everyone looks like everybody else. Because what the conflict was was that they had the role of government already. Joan Hoff and. Others have. And Frank Friedel pointed out was really between voluntourism and law. As to whether what should be done should be done voluntarily. By people on their own which is. Attractive and appealing moral position. So whether it should be. Passed. By Congress and that force by law. And whoever believes in voluntourism. And FDR believe in Him in law trouble not that everyone would not prefer voluntourism without one reason could conceivably work.

And voluntourism can work in small communities but in a large callous impersonal society produced. By the true changes in economic and technological The industrial changes. That have been taking place in the world. For a hundred years before. The notion that voluntourism could succeed in meeting problems are such that it was an illusion. All of them doesn't a large society where economic problems go far beyond face to face contact. All of our intention to do is to penalize responsible people. Who try to do their best. And benefit the unscrupulous. And the putting the law that is truth restore equity to these matters. I mean for example the question of paying. Decent wages. Or not applying child labor if this is all voluntary the manufacturer runs a sweatshop will have lower costs

than the man who pays. His dues his labor force decent wages so he loses by it. That is why law is essential. Because law that makes running the sweatshop illegal and therefore the responsible the unlight employer is no longer penalized. As he is under the system of voluntourism. The. That therefore seems to me a very basic change in him. And that was perceived at the time as a basic change. And a threat in my view correctly perceived. So there were certain. Other similarities in the whole question of the budget. Here again the changes Roosevelt with as hard a budget down. At least he was until about nineteen thirty eight or thirty nine. He. However was not an obsessed. Budget balanced. Herbert Hoover

by 1932 had become obsessed with the question of the budget. We all know now that there's nothing worse you can do in a depression than to cut back. On government fiscal contributions to the economy. This. Wisdom is not proceed then except by a few heretics like William P. Foster and Waldo Catchings. I mentioned this morning. And very few people like Mariner Eccles Roosevelt brought to Washington made head of the chairman of the Federal Reserve Eckels was a student of Foster and Catchings and Eckles had a kind of parallel far less sophisticated version of what Maynard Keynes was developing in England. And Britain in this great book of 1936 general theory. Nonetheless by the way that as we all remember the Democratic platform in 1932 came out for a 25 percent reduction in the budget.

And though this was not a major theme in Roosevelt's campaign he did give one speech Pittsburgh. In which he attacked. The Hoover administration in the most previous spending administration. In. American history. And promised he would carry out the Democratic platform. Though he did twice in that speech and use that qualification and that is of course if people are actually starving we will tend. To prevent that from taking place. 1936 Roosevelt decided to make the first major campaign speech again in Pittsburgh. So we asked Sam Rosen and his aide to. Look up what he said at Pittsburgh four years ago. And construct an answer to it. And the when went back looked up the speech read it came to. FDR and said Well I've read that speech you gave in Pittsburgh four years ago. And I think I've got the only possible answer. That can be made. And Roosevelt said

fine Sam what's that. Hans Rosemann said the only possible thing you can say is to deny that you ever gave the speech or hate you. Because it was Roosevelt. Actually the except qualification is made in the 1932 Pittsburgh speech. But when human need required he will spend and became as a depression deeper and more and more salient qualification. Though Roosevelt know he has the reputation of the popular good spender. The largest peacetime deficit the Roosevelt ran he was three and a half billion dollars in 1936. Even correcting for inflation and rating it as a proportion of the GNP. That. Is so small budget deficit. Compared to what. Ronald Reagan ran regularly in the 1980s. And yet as I say he was widely regarded as a total.

Total spending was regarded as totally out of control in the rules. He never spent enough to get the country out of a depression because the Congress and the business community were so opposed to. Spending. That was not until war and. The needs of national defense provided a legitimate and persuasive pretext for spending. That we that the country the government was able to send enough. Congress was willing to support spending for those purposes. And as soon as we began defense spending. Employment unemployment disappeared. By 1942 there practically no unemployment left in the country so that the war came along as a vindication of FDR. The trouble with FDR wasn't as his critics said at the time but didn't hear that he spent too much. The trouble was that he didn't spend enough. But.

What I really want to say is that I hope that when you make this documentary you will try to get yourself back in the mood and understanding of the perceptions of the people at the time. And not. Try to. Say that there were no differences. There is no acrimony or that this is all. Claptrap. Extreme bitterness of political discussion in the 1930s. It has been too easily forgotten. Mark child. Joe harsh I remember with petrifaction. Wrote a piece for Harper's in 1936 called they hate Roosevelt. The way he made English law work. And that was a perfectly accurate account. You can see hatred of Franklin Roosevelt particularly on the part of the rich and the business classes in this country. Surpassed anything I've seen. For any president since May. Now even Republicans.

Admire Roosevelt at least of later generations. But the the hatred of Roosevelt's pathological hatred. I wasn't there I wasn't around. It was very much like it. I don't doubt that it was worse but they were both people who whom the property classes in this country detested. I think it's important not to. Underestimate the resistance. I mean again something which historians call the corporatist interpretation of. Which everybody is all together and FDR is really an agent of big business. And doing these things. When you ask advocates of the corporate corporatist approach to explain why if I was their age their agent big business on the whole hated

FDR so much. And that's then would be that's false consciousness. I would not I hope plead with you fall for that line of things. The emotions are real the issues are real differences for real. FDR was not a not a radical certainly wasn't out to change the system. He believed in the market as we you've now deified and he believed in. What he believed in the social what we called a social market. That is a market where he could just control and regulated by government. As he saw his mission in life. I believe in the whole point of the New Deal was to rescue capitalism from the capitalists. And he did that successfully but he earned the hatred of most of the capitalists to. I have to say. In.

La Jolla. California. Was virtually socially ostracised on the suspicion they wrote. He sort of left a sort of an intriguing point about the fact that Roosevelt didn't use too much or didn't spend enough. The real question is do you think if the battles weren't as difficult he would have. It was his intention or his inclination to spend more. Was that was that his goal and the war was the only opportunity that allowed him to do that. I think that you know. He'll 1938. He would not have done so in 19. He didn't believe it at heart. In the end that you should have a budget balance and you have an unbalanced budget meet urgent human needs but as a regular thing you should aim for a balanced budget. And he did aim for that in the 19 36 37 he cut back on federal spending that's reduced the recession of 1937. The secretary of the Treasury perhaps

his closest friend in the cabinet was Henry Morgenthau and the son is now exposing him in the CIA scandal and Henry Morgenthau though is again a very humane man nonetheless had very conventional economic ideas. Morgenthal was opposed in the federal court that you opposed by the Communists like Leon Henderson. Who are head to head read Keynes he was opposed by Mariner Eccles. Read fast and Catchings. He was opposed by Harry Hopkins who didn't had no economic expertise but was running the WPA and face of the human problem. And when we got. Into the recession the 37 38 the ECOs Henderson. Ben Cohen. Harry Hopkins wing one out and spending resume. I think possibly at that time that Roosevelt who had had meetings with Keynes who remember Keynes with this. Approval. Because of Keynes's the attack

on the Versailles Treaty. That he had meetings with Keynes. Neither of them got much out of the other. I think it may have been a kind of a at least a Keynesian fellow traveler after the recession. And probably perhaps had it been politically powerful might have proposed sending. Out. You think that he feels that the world the way out of the depression it would take out. Let let. And I think what could have happened was. Four days debt the deficits. The deficits would have rather have a fiscal stimulus and that in fact they did it did they did it for the war provided by the Congress as a reason to vote. For current.

Permitting deficits. In the absence of war. Within an improbable no matter how hard Roosevelt tried. To get equivalence deficits created on behalf of unemployed or. Hurt public power or public works or whatever. So I think without the war. We might have had a long period of stagnation and you may have some fights with that. As something is a very interesting book that came out a couple of years ago by covering the story Michael Bernstein. Called the Great Depression. And he thinks it's a book about the Great Depression so much is what made it last so long and what me is so serious and he makes brother new arguments I think God knows I'm not a comic so I don't know. How and. How respected this argument is among economists but he argues that the depression began as a relatively normal cyclical downturn in these economy and then made it into a catastrophe. In addition to a number of policy fumbles on at the

top was the fact that the industries upon which the American economy could be depended for is growing in the early part of the century notably automobiles. And construction. Had reached a point of really surety and that a group of new industries that would later merge to become an engine to further growth. We are still too immature to do that. So there was a kind of. A gap in the economy at this point between the to be all industries to pull the economy out and the declining gold in the old industry has to do to pull people out of the US and the haves get to build new industries like chemicals and petroleum and others to do so. What that suggests I think is that the depression might have ended without the War. As these industries were developing for 30 years gaining strength and begin to of the war

accelerated not only the fiscal stimulus the northeast of Europe but also the development of these very industries came support for the world. For people that surrounded himself with the general climate in Washington and how that changed when it comes to dealing specifically along the lines of this idea of what government can and can't do without Roosevelt obviously when he came to Washington 1933 Washington became a great. Destination for all. The bright lawyers and bright economists of the country. That must be remembered also that it was a depression and that there weren't law firms in universities that didn't have them have jobs to offer. So much it gave an added attraction to it. But I think the basic appeal was the sense the government wanted to do something that they were were

looking for ideas and they're looking for people to execute the ideas. And. At that point government is regarded typically after the the disaster of the 1920s. Public service was held in high esteem. Not only because it provided a job if you couldn't find one in a law firm to hire you. But because. The opportunity to serve the country was. The simple the idea of a civil service. For example. When Tom Corkran who after the war became one of the great legal hustlers in Washington his ambition of the 1930s was to be chairman of the Civil Service Commission because that would be the mechanism of recruitment. For the great task of government public administration particularly in the law schools. People like Felix Frankfurter Jim Landis who was dean of the Harvard Law School.

After he became after years of SCC public administration with a great ideal. And this whole notion of public service had a dignity. And an appeal and also had an excitement. In the 1930s. Which it had I believe briefly in the early years of the Kennedy administration but has not had had. Since. And that was. I say basically because the country was in great trouble. And government seemed certain means of dealing with those troubles. Oh. Well. You heard. Both of them all and live in the new and the moment of.

Their democracy. The market and so on. I. Scored a great triumph. It is hard to put oneself back into 60 years ago. And to call it seriously democracy laissez faire America and so on. We're on the defensive. In the 1930s. The great depression came along as an apparent fulfillment. Of Karl Marx's. Gloomy prophecy. That capitalism would be destroyed by his own internal contradictions. The rise of totalitarianism and various variants after the first world war shattered the lot of the old structure order. The war was followed by great disenchantment in Europe with democracy. A great sense of democracy with a lot of talk about really a kind of facade behind which corrupt interests ran everything. The great need for purification which will be brought

about by messianic creeds of one sort or another. One part first follow the Bose revolution is the means of purification. Mussolini marched on Rome in 1922 fascism for any for others was regarded as the means of modernizing and purifying society. The number of people in America. I think Alan Brinkley reminded us this morning or someone this morning who admired Mussolini. You will find Charles A. Beard. You will find Lincoln Steffens. And other people like that who saw what Mussolini was doing a kind of rational effort to achieve a plan the society provided. So that. Democracy was. Felt not to be working. And then the Depression came along and they say period to fulfill the Martian prophecy. And proven even more of the futility of democratic methods. And you had therefore this

kind. Of. Fascist Communist counter-revolution against democracy and against the Enlightenment. And this was the circumstance we Roosevelt became had great international impact. Because what the New Deal did with the guess that there was a middle way. Between the callousness of the left of 19th century laissez faire on the one hand. And the tyranny of fascism or communism on the other. This. Could be. He really became began to be a international figure because what was happening in the United States you can find it I quoted in one of my books with both Keynes and Winston Churchill were saying about the new deal the new deal seemed to hold out some kind of hope by which you could have a humane society. Without having a tyrannical society.

In the third world as we now call it. I don't they were less afflicted perhaps by the depression that came over the more developed world and. Roosevelt kind of colonialism which is quite deep. It's much more a spectrum of 1940s and in the 1930s. Was exacerbated by the conditions of this country so that a lot of the. Competition a lot of the polls that you sold at home to. Reinforce. You. Would. Remain in the city. We're going to strike a balance between. The new missions and various cultures and societies at the same time to

look at the story. I'm curious when you hear of the great depression is that he doesn't want me to do the civic culture around that person by the way. Well I think Roosevelt represented quite a. Change. You ought to take a look. Because you go to Joe Wilson's. Book on FDR where he interprets Roosevelt I mean the end of the WASP domination of American politics. And that is if you look at it in one of my books I have to caciques on judicial appointments for example. He appointed far more Catholics. And. Jews. And predecessor and I think in a certain way they will. Anglo-Saxon. Has already been very substantially weakened. And I will search the beginning Theodore Roosevelt appointed the first two to the cabinet.

But the process was carried forward with great momentum by FDR. And though he could not. Do much given the folkways the mood of the times it would have been very hard for him to do in the way of appointing non-whites. To positions he certainly appointed non. Anglo Saxon Protestant the British and gave them a sense of inclusion in the process which they had not had before. I think it I mean this is part of the whole series of demographic changes which he was sensitive and responsive. And was. People of very largely by perhaps by desires to wait to consolidate the he has. Of. Various ethnic groups. But he he he didn't do that and made some very sound wise appointments.

I guess that is very different when we think of ourselves as Americans because we are all suckers. Really. Oh yes. Curious if you think there was a feeling in 1932 33 percent. We were all. In the same boat. But I think that. Vanished rather quickly as soon as there was a measure of recovery. The only class recriminations. And mechanisms. Came out. Even to Roosevelt reflects that in some of his speeches he talks about the people who are for him so much in 1933 and so is it. Now I'm here Joe you remember something about the man who. Who. Who with the top hat and fell into the ocean and he was rescued when he was pulled out he complained because they were forgotten to rescue his top hat. That kind of thing. So the by 34 35 the. The. Of all being in the same boat was proceeding quickly.

How. Come they were very good. Well. You all were. Crazy increase wasn't the objective in 1933. For that reason. That was the only way to deal with the very crushing burden of death was because the cold reflation that was trying to bring prices back the level of which that was incurred because obviously if. Prices fall the burden of the debt. Is worse because if you borrow at one level and repay at another and a reflation with an objective or two you know it's important for all people. Who had. Debt.

I don't think the price increases. Were. Much of a. Factor. Were large enough I mean they were trying to get back to the price level of 1929. I don't think that they were. I don't recall as being a major factor. In deprivation and deprivation was there anyway starting with the CWA and then in 1935 that WPA effort strategy with food stamps came later in the day. The first food stamp. Program was. Put out by low Perkins the Department of Agriculture in the late 1930s. So there are other ways of doing that. They are in fear of inflation was constant and has been this is a fear of the business community and they were saying then that they said later that deficits cause inflation. There's one thing we've learned from the Reagan years is that deficits not God necessarily cause inflation. One last question.

What were you three years. I was. Under paid. Their. Salaries. Reduced during the Depression. So. I was not personally testify that. I remember. Hearing Roosevelt give his speech I would say I was late to school. Phillips. Thank. You. The struggle is actually here in 1930 1932. Hoover won. There was a strong Norman Thomas. Roses are red. Chuck Saltonstall. NORMAN HERMANT came in second. And a few Stoller's myself feel like. Shit.

And I heard he was seeking heard the speech about the banks being closed because occurred to me that he would send me a check for Christmas so I had done nothing about it. That was good. But. I entered college autumn 1934. And when I was very much aware. Of the Depression and various jobs. On day. One. But I cannot say because my question is circumstances. Like. Joe's family in Toledo. My family didn't. Thank you very. Much. Next week Tom Kostner who is also the city university of New York

the author Fiorello H. LaGuardia in the making of modern New York. And not so much by way of introducing Tom Kestner but by way of introducing the subject. Pierce The Veil. Whoa. Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Me mean

yeah. I'm ready. For bed. Thank you good afternoon. I assume that my task is to try to create some sort of background that which you can then ask questions and direct me in the proper fashion that would be useful to you. And not so recent mayoral election in New York City Rudolph Giuliani try to put together a fusion candidacy and I think one reporter noted he proved beyond a doubt that cold fusion doesn't work. One of the things that was very special about LaGuardia was a passion that. Actually come here and he brought the government. And for about 45 years mayors the people who run for the mayoralty in New York City have tried to. Pick up at least some of the LaGuardia but have. I

think. Not. Somehow it has escaped them. What I think is important to understand about LaGuardia for the purpose of this program. Are two critical things one is what a person with LaGuardia his gift his ambition and his political savvy he had been. I would I think that it's fair to say he's probably the most experienced individual political individual of the greatest political experience to run for the mayoralty of his time someone who had brought a great deal of background both as someone involved in city politics person of the Board of Aldermen. And as a congressman for quite some time. What's important to say about LaGuardia I think is what a person of that sort of background. His sort of passion and interest his truculence what he could accomplish in the city. That's number one. I think what's important and then number two is what someone like that even with those gifts could not accomplish in New York

City or in any city or within the political structure because there are just certain things that can. That can be more difficult than sitting down and finding some sort of solution. And I think that those two things if they are held in with this amount. Of. Attention and the back of one's mind when one looks at the programs and one looks at what was done helps you toward a realistic conclusion about what what he did. LaGuardia thrived on the theatrical gesture and I think he's particularly someone who can be used for the kind of program that I understand you envision because that theatrical gesture I think in his case was not the goal. That was not the end. That was I mean some have said of him that this was chromatics within the intent of parable. It was his way trying to draw people into government and make clear to them that no matter what had come before and what a come before was that generally he wanted

something accomplished. You tried to do it by going to your local political boss. He had to make an extreme extremely tricky transition of. Winning over that constituency and directing the focus toward the port city hall toward legitimate government. And having citizens recognize that you could actually turn to the government for a solution during the 20s when he was mayor when he was in Congress one of the things that LaGuardia was very interested in. Professor Schlesinger talked about. The growing number of people who paid attention to this sort of problem. One of the things that LaGuardia was sensitive to particularly because of his own personal background. And because of his personal experience that is to say his wife and child died. And as a result of tuberculosis that they had contacted in tenement life in New York City. And partially as a result of the fact that he represented in both of the districts that he represented lower Manhattan and then later on in East Harlem.

District that had experience that would experience that experience the problems of depression. Well before there was a depression as a result of all of these things LaGuardia identified with the needs of people who were not caught up in this new era tremendous possibility an era of permanent prosperity the era of. Herbert Hoover. LaGuardia spoke for the poor. When they were still a minority. It would be partially I think the store. Part of his story would be the fact that. This minority grows into a very large and very substantial group the number of people who are suffering unemployment. Poor housing displacement enormous fears about what the future will be. If the numbers who who actually are affected by it grow vote. The numbers are many times more multiplied by those who fear this possibility. So that. He becomes. A politician representing a place in New York

City. In the third. He certainly would not have been typical not even somebody who could have. Won that sort of office in New York City in the 1920s. Perhaps we'll talk about that a little bit later. I had mentioned to Terry that at any point that you want to interrupt me or that you feel that there is an area that. You want to ask questions but please do because this is far from structured LaGuardia in New York City. Is coming to office in New York City. I think represents a change and on many levels but perhaps it's. Important to try to understand a little bit about who LaGuardia was and what his background was. He was somebody who came from who came from a family that was an immigrant family that had arrived in New York City. 1880s in 1880. He was born in 1982. But shortly thereafter the family went out west and that's why he was brought up. He was brought up in

Arizona in a couple of other army outposts where he saw both. The great possibilities of a democratic open society a free society. But he also saw things that in his autobiography which was written when he was 65 he recalls very vividly treatment of the Indians in the West the way that the railroads treated their workers. Things that caught his imagination when he was a very young boy. And the sense that this is not the sort of thing. That he was happy with. It was not the sort of thing that somebody who was short. Who was of indeterminant religious background his mother was Jewish His father was a Catholic himself Oakham that we would become an Episcopalian someone who was his mother was from Korea asked his father who was from Italy. He himself said anybody called him anything but an American he got a punch ready for him. Somebody like that.

It was not without carrying a psychological analysis too far it's not difficult to agree with the man who studied his early years. That he was somebody who felt he was very much on the outside and somebody who like them to fight with people individuals who were on the outside. And who felt that felt a certain kinship a certain a certain. Sense of of the common feeling with people who were on the margins of society. This was all this was made all the more strong. When his father was brought into the army his father served as a Bandmaster. But then. In 1898 it was a war. The Spanish American War. And his father was to go down to Cuba. But on the way as a result of infected meat that was sold to the army by people who were Guarani would always identify the meat trust those who were these terrible interests that were always taking care that war always taking advantage of the.

Small. Common. American. As a result of that record his father became very ill almost died and had to be discharged. And from that point on. The trajectory of his life was downhill. He was not able to find a job and was not able to make peace with himself. Here he took the entire family over back to Europe. And this was another one of those turning points that marked LaGuardia is sensitivity to what had happened in this country there. Over the years emerged this huge business interests he felt later on when he came to articulate some of these ideas. And it was crushing many people in not necessarily consciously but even unconsciously it had it had this terrible effect. And it had to be controlled. So that one of the first things that he would do when he entered into Congress was to introduce a piece of legislation that would make such sales. Take of meat or guns that didn't work or anything else that would put somebody who isn't in a dangerous situation during warfare who put their lives in jeopardy. That that was to be a capital

crime. Obviously it didn't get very far and it LaGuardia a long way with breaking rules. Nobody expected a freshman to introduce legislation much less to make a nuisance of himself by constantly asking that it be attended to. It didn't move anywhere and that was really much of the history of LaGuardia during the 1920s. He was elected just before the United States went to war. And in Congress. When one of the members of the house got up and said OK we've now voted to go to war but which of us is going to go. Get up and volunteer to go. It was one of the five who actually jumped out of a seat and said he would. He went off and made a fine record in Italy. Came back. And. He had in his seat ultimately moved from lower Manhattan a piece Harlem. And it is during this period that he undergoes several significant changes. One is as a result of the politics of the city.

I've not mentioned that LaGuardia was a Republican then that may sound a bit unusual but not really. New York City New York City politics and that period was controlled by Tammany. And it was controlled by a specific group of people in Tammany the Irish in New York City who had a strong. Grasp on local politics. LaGuardia didn't feel he had much of a future in Irish control Kameny. Number two. He felt that that the spirit of Tammany in the spirit of the entire political process that Tammany represented. Violated the kind of interest that he had in politics. His interest was not in joining with people who saw their opportunities and took them. His interests were somewhat more idealistic and that that word Terris certain. That people become very uneasy in their seats when you use that kind of terminology because it seems to cover all kinds of. Mistakes that historians make when they. Paint individuals in those wars Tony. And I don't mean that with Wattie it was somebody who was extremely special in terms of his morality but he had a

very powerful sense of what was fair and it was yeah it was a passion about it. It was a passion that came out of and you look at some of the speeches that he made in the early 1920s out of the fact that his wife had died in that tubercular environment. The fact that he had to bury his daughter who was less than a year old from the same disease that that disease had some basis in bad government some government that here could do something about it. And throughout the 20s many of his speeches carry the same sort of view. Ultimately he elaborates entire program based on the notion that government should exist to do something good for the people. One of his taglines would be that government was supposed to be good for the people not just the politicians. It was a very different approach and he he himself would rightly say that he felt very uncomfortable with the notion of timing. He felt uncomfortable with the notion of Republicans as well I think he ran a five different party lines throughout 20s. The. Parties for him were a matter of convenience and that's something different about him as well.

It was the beginning of the break up of a kind of party system into which Berley of politicians had to be plugged into. He was also representative of new immigration and that's something that is of interest because of the 20th while America was celebrating its nativist period of closing the doors to new immigration the rise of the Ku Klux Klan during the 20s and the two most significant power. And. Other such. Phenomenon. The great hero Henry Ford. Others represent the sense that it was something special about America kind of a selected American scene than LaGuardia. He made repeated references in Congress to the idea that America is the idea of America was great because it has room for people like him. And he insisted that he be accepted and he insisted that he be considered as part of that large group. And he took one particular program and there are several very colorful ways in which

he did this and that was the program for making America the noble experiment. To make America sober. In which a number of congressman just barely would wipe the whiskey from their lips and vote for prohibition. And LaGuardia took that program. Particularly as a way of indicating to the rest of this country that this country it's Congressman those people who represented the mainstream of American opinion might want to vote for prohibition but they didn't necessarily want it really enforced. What they wanted was a safe law to keep immigrants sober. And to deny people like him equality with others. Whether that's true or not. And there were many overstating Phillip equality rhetoric certainly in the 20s. He was very extreme in. He allowed himself all kinds of statements which are very colorful and very interesting. He also allowed himself to get up right outside Congress and create a brew that an intoxicating brew that would have been illegal anywhere

else. He called upon all the reporters to photograph him and then he would get these. Wires from all over the country thing from press room saying that they had tried the experiment and it worked. LaGuardia. Manage not only to speak about prohibition. But about public housing. About counter-cyclical employment. The idea that Professor Schlesinger talked about in a formal way. Well there were people who were talking about it informally and in the early 20s not understanding the the economics of it understanding really the humanity of it. Would you argue that when there is unemployment this should be money in reserve so that public projects should be should be undertaken and that money should be spent when there is a up cycle then you can stop doing that. You can even withdraw some of the money and pay off the debt that you've created. Why. Because by the late 1920s and early 30s a spokesman for the other American. Steel.

I mean co-workers asked him to come down and see what their plight was like. People in Harlem who are running rent strikes want him to come down and the people who had lost their money and banks. Turned to him. He was a congressman at large for those who are disaffected. And that number as you well know by the end of the 20s grows. At. That number grows. LaGuardia is important growth and in many ways he becomes not somebody merely screaming at the margins in which case he could say whatever he wanted because he would never be tested by the need to try to put together a coalition that would actually vote. And pass a piece of legislation. But he moves more toward the center certainly with his sensibilities. He is now much more politically aware. That what he was talking about for so long will perhaps happen not exactly the way he said it and not in the form that he had seen it but that could happen if there were

compromises made. And and that process is one that brings him closer to a progressive group with which he is willing to work and ultimately that group is able to get some of this legislation passed. The irony of it is that by time LaGuardia is working to pass legislation. In a lame duck session called the 1932 election in which Franklin Roosevelt was elected. LaGuardia has been defeated for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is that people sometimes are very happy to have a congressman who is well thought of and who has written up newspapers but they want a congressman who's paying attention to what's going on at home with why he was paying attention what's going on all over the country. Let MacAnthony him still. You're not paying attention to the fact that I've got a problem my landlord or some other such thing and he wasn't. He had become a larger figure. So he became vulnerable in that sense and of course he was also a Republican in a period when he was a Democratic landslide. And so Roosevelt

in a way. In a very important way contributed to his defeat as Congressman of East Harlem. He was without a job. There were informal. Contacts with the new deal that was coming in offering him some sort of position. But LaGuardia was now 50 over 50 years old. And the truculence that initially had fueled his. Outspokenness had become even more difficult. For some people to take. And even New Dealers understood that it would be difficult to have him as part of miscreations So we have not had a cabinet to work it in under cabinet undersecretary position was just not going to work all that well with what he understood it as well. He'd always wanted to be mayor of New York City as early as 1920. He had left the Congress for a brief period to accept all them at the aldermanic presidency to replace Al Smith. When Al Smith was elected governor. And the reason he did that he maintained

was that he'd been promised by the Republican boss that if he stepped out of Congress. He would ultimately be able to run for mayor. In the next election campaign. Well that didn't work out. He wasn't able to keep quiet and he got into a fight with the Republican governor. And. He. Says this was a period in which his wife was dying and he was becoming very very difficult very bracing. So that didn't work out. He tried once more to run for office and the office of mayor this time with. While he was holding the office of Congressman in 1929. And he was defeated by the largest margin ever. After a 1929 with all the times and nobody summarized. Nobody epitomized. That those good times and that time and that a line of insouciance better than Jimmy Walker. And between Jimmy Walker who on the one hand was promising new York style. And good times and continued. The continued life in the city whose main street was the Great White Way

and Fiorello LaGuardia was talking about corruption and Arnold Roth thing and about the fact that this city was not going to continue this way and that there were people who were unemployed between those two. New York went with its hopes rather than with its fears. And Jimmy Walker was re-elected and LaGuardia was defeated by the largest number. Ever in the modern mayoralty. By the. Largest. Margin by about 500000 voters vote. But 1932 was a different time and LaGuardia presented himself to the Republican convention to the Republican Party to those who are working on selecting a candidate as someone who is willing to either accept the candidacy will make sure that no Republican will ever be elected. He was a political street fighter. He would drag the party down with him if they did not give it to him and he made that very clear.

Robert Moses was being considered. Others were being considered. But each and each time that the these Republican candidate in the Republican group that was talking about a candidate. And by this time they had gathered. Along with them disaffected Democrats and others who were of a reform stripe and they were talking about fusion. Each time that that such a meeting came up with a name that was not LaGuardia he would meet several of them and say there is no way that I will not campaign individually against anybody that you select. And it was as a result of that kind of street fighting political street fighting that LaGuardia was able to. And the fact that he got Samuel Siebert who did not like Robert Moses and he had no confidence in some of the other people whose names were. Presented. Samuel Seabury became in a way of the man. Who. Stood behind LaGuardia. Later on there will be several others but LaGuardia was able to push himself on the fusion ticket and he won in

1933. And 30 when he came into office prepared as I said before as perhaps no other mayor had been prepared with a knowledge of what the city was about. With a knowledge of the way that politics could work because he had seen that not only on the level of the city and on the level of the political clubhouse. But he had seen tremendous changes in the way the Congress worked in what had in 1920 been inconceivable. Coming out as village lation by knocking 32 33. And he brought that sense of possibility. New York City he also brought a a powerful sense of the possibilities that politics could bring. Professor Schlesinger was talking about Franklin Roosevelt's age and in. The early years and John F. Kennedy's presidency. In this city people looked at mayors. And. Ineffectual in this way. I mean and why not.

There have been two or four mayors but over the span of time. Mayors who had run this city had not done a very good job because they had not been very admirable. And those people that they worked with were even less admirable. I mean the reputation of the Board of Alderman was the NOR was was. They had been called earlier. And before a turn of the century and the 40 thieves and the reputation gone down rather than up so that there was not much that people expected from government in New York City. LaGuardia wanted to make the job of mayor worthy of him. This was where his ambitions had been. This was where he would make his mark. And he wanted it as broad and as large as necessary. It was not only the depression that helped elect him mayor of New York it was also a terrible. The revelations that came with the Seeburg commission. The three Seaborn investigations. And what those revelations indicated that was that New York City government was

open for saying. That. There was there were few political offices that did not work. In a way that could not stand the light of public scrutiny and. That individuals who earn seven and eight thousand dollars a year had banked several hundred thousand dollars and when they were called before the CBI investigation they explained will lose this magical tin box and that magical box just somehow created money so that when this individual turned to that box it was more in it than he'd ever put in. And that was it. The idea that they could lock an investigation with that sort of answer was something that was not unusual. I mean they thought that this kind of action was going to get them by. What LaGuardia managed to do during the election campaign which was to draw attention to that he had drawn attention to it before it had become public and now he had a right he felt to do it this time and say I told you so. Jimmy Walker was forced from office even before the election.

But the traditions of Jimmy Walker. And the traditions of Tammany had been finally laid before the people at a time. That was. Bad timing. People without jobs people were suffering. There was a depression. There was a need for a sense that government could be run that the city could actually be governed that people could actually create policies that would help the unemployed. That would put people who needed housing into homes and nobody had that confidence about Jimmy Walker or people who've gone into politics with the sense that they would be rewarded for having rounded up votes. I mean if that was the extent to which they had any expertise that was certainly not enough to deal with the problem the crisis of the depression of unemployment and all the other things that came with it. Those two things I think were critical in helping bring LaGuardia to office but once in office look what he managed to do several very important things. One is to win the confidence of national administration. That there's a

critical change that takes place on the wall of water in New York City and it works on both levels. That is from Washington and from New York City. Up until this point mayors generally looked to the statehouse as the most they could do is to go up to the statehouse and tried to negotiate with the governor and then deal with the problem of upstate legislators and downstate legislators and home rule. So for LaGuardia you can see the locus of urban government. It was no longer going to be government between the city and the statehouse. The city was going to. Be a self-standing. Political Unit. And it was able to do that because he was able to work with Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal. And particularly with Harold Ickes and Harry Hopkins and some of the other important individuals. In fact one of the things that's important to look at when I try to understand this period is this culture of a very important New York politicians a very different culture from the culture of Tammany.

When one thinks of the people who were involved who came out of New York politics in thirty one thinks of Herbert Laymon Francis Perkins Harry Hopkins Henry Morgenthau or Eleanor Franklin Roosevelt Robert Moses AUSMIN. It's a different set of politicians. And it is with those. And at that level that LaGuardia is now able to work and it is on upon the expertise of men like Robert Moses and women in small in number but remarkably LaGuardia would pay attention to the idea of bringing more women into the administration bringing more people into the administration who had not been involved in politics for a very long time. There was a rising generation of people who were of Jewish background of the talian background. Later on a very small number admittedly but nonetheless. This would. Tokens mean things. Also people who were black and people who were women.

Many of these people were on the edge of becoming involved in politics but they were closed doors. There was this huge obstacle and that was the political system as it exists that didn't recognize and didn't want to make deals with them did not want to bring them in. There were some who understood that you want to get votes you've got to make some accommodation but the accommodations were. As grudging and as limited as could be. This was still a green machine. What with what he did when he came into office was that he had none of this behind him. He he brought in a Karlee new group of people who have been coy from the edge of politics in the West who are willing to have confidence in politics doing great things. He brought them into office with him and he assembled a number of administrators and. Commissioners. I don't think that New York City has since then and certainly not before then seen anything to compare with them. Or the names may mean very little person today. But if we take a look at them within their time. Each one is not each one but most of them were

recognized as outstanding individuals outstanding for their record outstanding for the non-partisanship and al-Thani for what they would ultimately accomplish within the administration. What that did was that it gave him sufficient credentials to go to Washington and convince them that if Washington gave money to New York City it was not going to go into some politicians pocket or some large group of politicians pocket that knew that the New Deal needed a laboratory to show what it could do what the benefits of that sort of government could be how far government could actually intrude in areas where had not been involved before and perhaps make a difference. It's true that behind all of this at different times were different motivations. The public housing projects were not a vehicle for housing the homeless reformers in New York City wanted this huge program

with that program. They anticipated that you would redo slums that you would offer the unemployed and the needy New South is a possibility an environmental reform which would create new attitude and new ways of looking at the world and new sense a new sense of confidence of a broad civic comity. That's what reformers were talking about. And one of them Langland POWs who served in lewat administration actually came up with a 10 billion dollar project that he wanted to sell Roosevelt Roosevelt was not going to put $10 billion into into. Public housing in New York City to redo public housing. What LaGuardia was willing to do with to use that rhetoric his. Pragmatism and go to Roosevelt and say but we can do a couple or go to Ickes and say we can do a couple or go to Hopkin. We took money from the P.W. way. To put up housing from the WPA to pay for the workers. And then

he went off that he could scrounge money from Wall over and ultimately New York City was able to get a hugely disproportionate amount of money. The goal is not public housing and ultimately therefore there was no comprehensive reform. The goal was to spend money and create jobs. And that meant that. This was going to constantly be changing that dynamic was going to be change as obviously did Roosevelt pulls in money at some point is willing to spend it at other points. But look what his background that allowed him to do and what his relationship ultimately with Roosevelt allowed him to do what the trust that he had banked on the city allowed him to do with the play that game very well and to bring enormous sums of money. When I say enormous sums if you actually look at the. Project you want to just take a look at a map and see how it is dotted all over with these problems her. Has to do with water sewage plants or with pools with

parks or with public hospitals or public housing or simply repaving streets or zoos Central Park Prospect Park the number of project boggles the mind. What New Deal new was that if there was a project that was being bought up down to Washington from New York City it had a firm price tag on it. It had been thought out it was going to come in on time. And it was going to be a wonderful demonstration of what New Deal money could do in some of the other cities. Stories of corruption undercut the trust of the New Deal. In New York City. They had confidence that that was not going to happen. But they were limits as well. There was a riot in Harlem in 1935.

Those corruption police department despite LaGuardia best efforts he promised. He told the police go out use whatever tactics you need and he he overstepped his bounds. He told them to mess up criminals before they brought them in. He made a huge project that are fighting organized crime organized crime develop. Despite his best effort. And. After he was out of office it was far more powerful than when he had entered. There are certain things that he was not able to do. The. Case of the Hurrell Harlem riot for instance in 1935. LaGuardia had a great. Compassion a great. Understanding of what it was could be what it was to be an immigrant and a worker.

And he had an intellectual compassion for people who lived in Harlem. But it was not the same degree of common feeling that he had done that he had when asked when the priest was elected from. Chicago was the first black. Congressman. When others refuse to have him sit next to them or have their office come bring them bring them next to me. He spoke out but it was all at a different level. The degree to which he fought. For us he would say Mrs. Esposito. Or Mrs. Cohn. To have money so that she could put bread on the table was somewhat different from the way that he understood Harlem. And that's clear. From looking at his at his letters and looking. At the way he responds. Initially he's just he's porn. He's torn between on the one hand the objective reality that he sees he sees a lot of crime he sees a lot of poverty he sees a lot of unemployment. He knows that racism plays a role but he's not sure to what

extent something else may play a role. It takes the right 35. And the response for him could be convinced that whatever it is at first. And. Not the. And the he of the war but at the same time he's not willing to do as much as is demanded by the commission that is appointed after the riot. And part of the reason is. That. He feels that. There's a depression is unemployment. And if the rest of the city. And he's caught in a real trap. He does not know. What do you do. How do you allocate your resources to deal with different problems later on in 42 43 when there was another riot. The problem becomes even more much much more difficult much more modern bet that Stuyvesant was

right in Harlem. But after that the that is changing a lot of clocks moving at the back of Stuyvesant. And there is a grand jury investigation of LaGuardia. Because the people affected by this are saying LaGuardia is not giving us enough police protection. Their kids are being shaken down in the street. There's a lot of violence in the streets. People were being mugged. Neighborhood is changing. People can't go to church. We're not being given our police protection. When we got here it was first brought into office the first day they took off. He went over to the police department said there's a new rule in this administration up until this point there were certain neighborhoods where you didn't enforce the law at this point. And they were ever in every neighborhood. The law will be enforced. I will not tolerate any of that sort of line of enforcement when I can 42 43. The grand jury makes clear that there are lines again. And part of the problem is this Detroit had used

the police power during a riot and a lot of people died. He had restrained the police in New York City and he avoided that kind of deadly riot but restraining the police came at great expense. He knew that when you deal with putting the police into a situation like this you are putting you are really putting the safety of the city at risk because police carry guns. They are trained to react perhaps overreact or perhaps not trained to react or. Whatever. And when you ask them to enforce the law in a changing neighborhood where many of the police as some of that as some of the studies show. Had a great deal of. What touched by it. Were greatly touched by that sort of racism that it was difficult to control in the city. You are asking for a great deal of trouble. And with what he did not know how to go with it. He just

didn't. He said I tried my best and he was stuck. It was I think the liberal solution up again the problems the pragmatic problems of the fact that it is you can only take an intent to do something good. Up to the point where you realize that it could become dangerous. And that's it. And that's that's as far as he was able to take it. There's another place with that kind of a difficulty arises. And that is with budgets when he was first forced into office he. Helped push through an economy building a plan. His own salary. The salary commissioner's. Cut government employment. And in every way possible try to balance the budget. In order to pay for relief. He had a special sales tax passed so

that there would be money available to pay for relief out of that separate. Part. And therefore. There would always be a certain amount of money set aside for ruly but otherwise. Cut the budget by 1945. New York city's budget. Had been bloated. It was taking advantage of every possible loophole to hire people. People were getting raises and the budget was completely out of whack. In fact with what he was pushed to the point of cooking the books. In order not to show how deeply in New York City what he wanted to provide positive good government for the people of the city. He wanted to take advantage of what the new deal offered. But that was expensive. Even if you just had to pay for maintaining all of the bridges and all the parks and all the other thing it was expensive. And what LaGuardia was unwilling to do was tell people the price of progressive government.

It worked for a while but ultimately the problem of a city paying for progressive humane modern government was much more expensive than he was going to help improve the city. He was not willing to absorb. The cost of that and that bit of bad news. He was not willing to absorb the cost for instance of increasing the fare which almost everybody who we had to study it told him must be crazy. If after the unification of the transit system in New York City the transit system would be put on on decent on a decent basis. In any event there are positive. A great many of them I think by 1938 39. LaGuardia has implemented the two largest set the agenda that he had come into office with the reason he was able to do it I think is because of the passion that he brought the confidence that he was able to develop among the people of course and the fact that they knew that here was somebody who was not going to take their money away from them unfairly.

The fact that he was able to bring government close to them and I think that fear is this sense of dramatic where he would go out and run for the fire or later on he would read the comic on this had a purpose and the purpose was to show people that government is with you that part of you ultimately when he gets on the radio and every Sunday he's on the radio for half hours talking to people about personal problems. He took government way beyond what we would be comfortable with perhaps because here he was intruding in areas where government had never intruded before he closed the burlesques he did not allow the sale of adult magazines arguing when someone asked them. And how did the mayor know ways to get powers who wanted. To take them off the newstands he was under the power to collect garbage that kind of thing. This is tricky stuff. The American Civil Liberties Union had a long petition that they had a lot of people who supported LaGuardia sign saying we cannot have good men in good times. Create a model for bad men. Back then he did he did that. But I think this is a this is the

age at which good government is good or at least good progressive government if there is a government that is. Involved and interested. That's the agent you work with do was able I think to say on the other side he did not intrude. He did sometimes that he did not intrude in a terrible fashion onto the freedoms and the legitimate rights of citizens. You cannot on the one hand increase government on the other hand if there is something that LaGuardia was able to do because of his personal involvement and because of this the radio and all the other thing. And that is that if some prick to try to argue that you want to keep government personal and at the same time increase the bureaucracy enormously. And he did both and they are contradictory. And I don't think that one could explain it articulate the explanation except to say that because the the person who was there because of his level of involvement and because of his integrity he was able to both increase the bureaucracy. And still say to people if there's a problem call me and

keep faith with the people of the city to say in a sense to the people who were part of that bureaucracy. I want you to follow the rules but I want to go beyond the rules and you've got me to answer to you don't. One cannot spell it out and put it on a diagram but if one wants that one and one thing and then. I think one of the keys of warning to the fascination that New Yorkers have with LaGuardia is the sense that government was not there and the government cared and that that man was somebody that you could turn to if you had a problem. There are a number of other things perhaps we talk about when you ask the questions but for the moment. I think that gives you some sense of who we are who we. Were. Today.

Well New York City is consolidating 1898. This is to city that the major part of the politicians needed to be engaged with in. Queens Richmond Brooklyn Manhattan and then on to create an NDA from the pope to go integrate into. Buying those wanting power. That was that he was about. But what he was responsible for lately is a campaign for a new car a moderate charter. The charter in 98 was one that was just lumped together because it has been one good thing done. This was why they didn't tell the city. Why do you support it and work for a. It today or primarily what was wanting to do was to make the other fellows feel part of it. For was very important and have a center because that's where it was and that's what's

under control which is why we take City Brooklyn Queens something we sometimes through our summer homes that was to get people out so I didn't have any sense that they would the city. There's no doubt that you watch the power of government change culture. So in the period of these new senators that's one of the complaints that people outside have had when they live near the city. But he understood the problem and the tried. And he did it this was not strange. The you. Know that we're not really concentrating on that and in fact what happened was Interestingly enough during the Depression there was the early part of the pression there was an abundance of

housing there was too much housing. People couldn't afford to pay for housing and they moved in. Young couples moved in with parents. Others did not get married for whatever reason. There was a lot of abandoned. And uninhabited housing. And this led to ultimately to one of the mistakes that his housing commission made which was. A prop a program wholesale from Clarence. And. Then comes late 30s when there is a bounce back. Mid 30s and then up to the late 30s when there's bounce back and the need for housing. And there just isn't enough housing. In the city but New York City in the in the 30s did not have a much larger population it. In fact that did not have a larger population than it does today. And the distribution by the 30s was that Manhattan was losing population and Brooklyn. And Queens were gaining the population. And that's why continue to grow.

Now you've made the distinction between LaGuardia sensibilities towards immigrants as opposed to the way related to the black community. Is there any way of saying where some a group like Puerto Ricans might fit into that mix. That is who's a Puerto Rican boy. Who was arrested that started the Harlem right. And. So were they lumped together or did he say oh they're from what I was there and that that sort of led to them on that level. It just kind of. Decision. They were not that many people from Port from Puerto Rico in New York City at that time and they did begin to come in those years and he represented a district that would ultimately. He thought that the Puerto Rican vote to help defeat him in 1932. Nonetheless his protege Marcantonio became one of the. Perhaps the most outspoken supporter of Puerto Rican migration. And he he represented the single largest Puerto Rican district in Congress. When there

was a disaster in Puerto Rico. In 1928 a flood he ran down there he was where he opened up his office to help everybody find out if any road trips were. Built for blacks. Oh I'm trying to say is that you've got on in this in in terms of degree LaGuardia we. Had a lot of trust and what can I mean the other way around. He he backed a lot of trust from the black community. There were a lot of black leaders who turned to him who wanted him to have more power who wanted him to run for office every time that he was thinking about not running for office who wanted him to be the head of the federal. Fair Employment. Practices Commission and have some input. And every time he had input they were happy. He worked with Eleanor Roosevelt. What I'm trying to say is that he did not identify. As. Elementarily on a visceral level with the black community in New York City. Not initially. I think that he learned that he he came he came close. He did not initially identify with his problems he did not.

If unemployment you give someone a job you go to Harlem. How do you solve the problem. It was something that he was not able to fully integrate into a larger agenda put solving the problems of the city. And so. If there was pressure Harlem housing for instance was built primarily for blacks Williamsburgh housing was built for whites it was understood that they would be segregated housing. Nonetheless by now 41 with Metropolitan insurance company wants to put up housing. And LaGuardia enters into an agreement a kind of unstated agreement but something that's hinted at in the written letter arrangement in which he accept the idea of segregated housing. He's badly burned. And you get a lot of letters saying you've heard us. Terror. We never thought he would do hits on unemployment people. These are jobs houses. I've got to look at the entire city. But he learned his lesson on that as well. And he he said he would never do that again. He had to be a cop. He had to be sensitive to issues that were outside his expertise.

I mean he did go with me. He did not become the issue of burning urgency that as if that was the one thing that would make and support something or not. This had to be weighed against a lot of other things I should mention one thing the with what just in terms of finding out his personality he ran for mayor he was mayor three times. Third time it certainly does not come through with a deeply frustrated man. Much of his agenda was accomplished by the end of the second especially with something else he'd hoped. To run for president. Strange that sounds to many today because people are not used to the idea of. In fact that. A number of. People will work with him. I had a look and if I had your last name be no problem. But he wanted to run for president. And. He as many others were not certain that Roosevelt would break tradition and run for a third term if the Rowsell thugs he's caught in a situation where he really does not want to be mayor again to be mayor again

simply doing the mundane tasks of collecting garbage and that there was nothing new that he had. In mind for New York City. Much of the agenda that he had come in with had been put down. The rest was just taking care of it. That didn't that did not challenge him. He ultimately trust the jobs run be mayor the city of New York and run the office of civilian defense and it fits him and Tarla. He wants he wants desperately to be a general. We're going to be four years 65 years old. He's still writing rock and roll that wants to make him general but nobody wanted to work with him. My vote was afraid of. The Secretary of War says. You know. Talk to somebody else. And General Eisenhower said no no you fine great idea but not right now. Not talking would have happened. And. He deeply hurt by that. He is very frustrated by that however after he. Leaves the mayor he lives for another year and here we had the honor. Project. The United Nations.

Project. Help feed this crest around the world refugees and others. And. He. Gives his entire heart to it film that just rounds it out. Well every time. We. See the. Way we're going to do that. I. Have no doubt that. Wimples. Played an important role. But there's a leg. Very often it can be between. A group coming to political influence and the perceptions of people who grew up in a different political situation just like having could not deal with the depression. The Guardia was of a time and his sensitivities had been molded by that time. He knew that immigrant workers others were vulnerable people and he knew that he had a

sense of what the programs were that he thought could deal with that. He had not thought through not not as deeply and not as he had not articulated in his own mind a program for dealing with. What the situation was in Harlem what it was ultimately going to be in bed by. How do you relate. The police protection. How do you deal with the unemployment. How do you deal with the disease. How do you deal with a sense that New Yorkers have that this is a place where one person said you go on moral vacation. He was not he didn't have the tools for that. He didn't have the intellectual equipment politically. He had not thought it through. He had not lived through the experiments he had learned a lot in the 20s about his particular game his particular expertise. It had not done that I you know I don't know if that answers a question in Parliament. Which is really at a perfect place to lead into our next speaker who's chair and we'll be speaking with in large part about the parliament and also the black culture a.

Time as a whole. And I really think. You're. Right. Gerald Gill professor at Tufts University History Department has been an adviser to black in many ways. He had to develop a lot of the curriculum materials that go with the rise of man and maybe even more widely. The research is largely in the field of foreign policy but as a teacher in American history he's got to get his breath and he's always found him one of the most thorough researchers and one of the greatest sources of articles in the library and 15 minutes

later been handed three articles on something that I was totally confused about that he knew of where to put his hand. I know that everyone joining Cry-Baby find him a wonderful resource and it does make you very local. Just. The African-American culture both in New York and in Washington here here to help us think about the series as a whole but also think about some context and. Critical background material. And. That becomes part of why do you play. All the scenes you still want to leave me wanting be

back. Yes. I. Don't know the man

to the to the you know the like a. Black you. Know the vision of life. So the continuation of that. But I just wanted to work with him for a quick glimpse of what. Some aspects of African-American cultural life were in Harlem in that key to

the 1930s. Thinking about this presentation I'm inclined to react to and to address partially some of the suggestions put forth by Alan Brinkley yesterday and Pinson hoarding this thing and also by a question that Henry Hanson asked yesterday and hopefully I'll be able to address those in the context of introductory questions I set out. And then also the nature of presentation for example what does African-American popular culture tell us about African-American as well with American culture. During the Depression years. Why in that time economic scarcity and unemployment what people spend skift thoughtlessly in terms of entertainment or why would individuals seek to try and find inexpensive forms of leisure and entertainment. What does African-American popular culture tell us at least in terms about changing perceptions of blacks how blacks try to define the image for themselves in the context of the 1930s where the images depress the dominant images with the famous in in the beginning of the 1930s and the

characters depicted in Gone With The Wind at the end of the 1930s. With this African-American popular culture. Tell us about African American and American struggle for the expansion that the marker see in the Depression era. The question of hoarding left us with yes to that. In terms of how African-Americans seek to change your own images but also changes in terms of race relations. And how perhaps. Popular culture and African-American part of the culture fits service to bridge in terms of improvements of race relations. And I think in the 1930s what is African-American popular culture talked about class differences gender roles and gender relations and community development among African-Americans in the Depression era. Some of them are literally more dress that question in more detail. What does African-American tell us with the question Alan Brinkley left us with the FAA about popular values but questions of democracy questions about pluralism with the Wolf what about populism and American embrace of populism and the fact that the 1930s. What this African-American popular culture and its depiction of African-American popular culture posed for black

side in terms of acting as the agent for social change and in terms of making linkages as Vincent suggested to what you see in later aspects of both eyes one and I see two African-American popular culture is currently to be the Pictet in the shows dealing with New York and the New Deal. But popular culture and expressions of popular culture should be seen as compliments to stories depicting the disproportionate impact of the Depression and the limits of the New Deal in terms of redressing African-American unemployment poverty destitution during the 1930s. So on one hand we'll be seeing images of sharecroppers the urban unemployed at the same time we're seeing pictures of protests and pictures of struggle. But it's a steady upward depiction of African-American part of the culture activities in 1930s should be seen as a big compliment. Because popular culture on one hand could be seen as escapism but it is more than just escapist ventures African-American popular culture. We're coping mechanism at least in terms of how people came to deal with

aspects of the oppression that eke out a day to day existence among friends neighbors and supporters and other supporters. African-American popular culture whether and seen as movies music the numbers. Home entertainment theater going and sports could be seen as some forms of failed protest against the nature of race restrictions and racial barriers imposed in the decade of the 1930s act the American pop culture can also be seen as an expression of neighborhood and community support initiatives as people came together in a calm embrace to try and prove aims and goals of community and development. While my comments are largely attributable to New York and Washington and to a lesser degree Terry to Atlanta and Chicago. My comments could be applicable to popular culture and its manifestations in any other locale in which there are significant numbers of African-Americans in 1930s whether it be urban environments or Rubell or rural

environment. So whether one is looking at popular culture in terms of juke joints in the Mississippi Delta Blues Club in terms of Beale Street in Memphis. After hours club went to church street in Norfolk. The Eldorado the Harlem grille and the Pilgrim auditorium prominent jazz clubs in Houston. The Regal Theater in Milwaukee the central district of Seattle or the Central Avenue district in Los Angeles. And keep in mind this is the environment out of which both Charlie Mingus and Dexter Gordon will emerge in the 1940s. Whether one is looking at any of these sites one sees the manifestations and expressions of popular culture that reflect the richness the vibrancy the resiliency the creativity and above all a sense of community among local residents. The show will largely deal with new York and Washington and I also had very briefly Chicago and Atlanta very briefly and there are reasons why because for example when one talks about African-American popular culture mostly tension tensions mostly

focused upon on New York and mostly is mostly focused upon Harlem and there's no denying that Harlem was the single important cities in terms of African-American popular culture. From a from the from the early part of the 20th century up until the present. But events and currents in Harlem in the 1930s need to be examined in comparison to what was taking place in other urban centers. All one has to look at what was taking place in other urban centers independent of what was taking place in Harlem. Justices for example. And as we're talking about yesterday at least in terms of how this project could be seen as the vanguard at least in terms of its depiction of aspects of American life in the 1930s. You may know that at least in terms of what was referred to as the Harlem Renaissance there's often times now being referred to at least in terms of what was taking place in other cities for example a Washington renaissance in which George and Douglas Johnson was prominent Alliston for Nelson as well. Griffy what some people would talk

about as the Philadelphia literary residence or renaissance in 1920s so they could focus solely and get away attention solely and exclusively from New York but also the focus in terms of what was taking place in other communities. That's one of the reasons why I suggested this in terms of looking at very briefly and perhaps the narrative Can you explain this. What was taking place in terms of Washington and Atlanta and the course by looking at those two cities you get glimpses in terms of cities. Where does your race segregation was a way of life and were aspects of African-American culture oftentimes the ball independently of white patrons in terms of New York and also in terms of communities where many of the resources were black on the Apollo was not owned by blacks. The Howard Theatre was that might say something at least in terms of both the vibrancy of the culture but also the resources and where and where those resources stayed Secondly Washington and Atlanta allow for glimpses of another facet of African-American life that is oftentimes ignored. What was going on at historically black

colleges and universities and in fact in the 1930s. One has to pay attention in terms of what is taking place at Howard University. Its president was Mordecai Johnson the first black president in the history of the institution. The faculty included Ernest just Rayford Logan Kelley and Miller. Ralph Bunche Elaine Locke Franklin Frazier Howard Thurman Charles Hamilton Houston Benjamin Mays William Hastie Abraham Harris and Charles Kopp a virtual who's who unfortunately of male skull unfortunately but still a virtual who. So when we say in terms of the African-American intelligentsia. But it's also important to focus on least in terms of who these who their students work in the context of the 1930s. Thurgood Marshall James Farmer Paul Murray Walter Washington Ken of Quoc Maine Fips bought Davis and Colton Goodland. So in other words something was happening at Howard at least in terms of the 1930s and then which Howard was

sending out individuals who were going to be prominent in protest activities in the 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s and what's going that their legacy is still lasting into the 80s. So also important to look at how it at least in terms of the Joint Center for Negro there the conference that was held that Howard in 1935 granted the FBI and the investigators conference because the quote unquote presence the a communist and a Howard campus. But this conference would be a poor run at the National negro Congress a manifestation of more radical protests in the 1930s. And so the beginning of the end in the protest and we saw in terms of some of the sit ins that would take place in terms of protesting racial discrimination in terms of New York in the late 1930s. But how it would also be an important resource because much of the research assistance for the American dilemma was conducted by faculty members at Howard. So when was to talk about the nature of race relations and the changes that will take place and race relations in terms of the 1940s. Many of the seeds are being developed in terms of Washington D.C. in the 1930s. Why Atlanta.

Because we have a presence of five schools Morehouse Spelman Claude Morris Brown in the leaning University. John Hope was the outgoing president Benjamin Mays would be the president of Morehouse but also keep in mind that this Atlanta University where W will be boys will be located in 1934 after he leaves the NAACP. And that's also where the boys will be when black construction is written and then this in terms of the seminal importance of that particular book and the intellectual climate in which it was written. George Kelcey will be a faculty member and at Morehouse College as well Samuel Williams. Those days might not ring a bell immediately but these were two of the most immediate mentors of a student who will enter a Morehouse College in 1944. Martin Luther King. Again. And keep in mind listen to this and look at purchase do you guess they won't have to look at least in terms of where the seeds were the 1930s that would lead to the future development in the 40s and 50s. Why Chicago. Very briefly Chicago has a very important role and lead in terms of African-American history

historiography of public policy. We know more about black or race relations in Chicago than we do in any other city. We have two historical studies Alan Spears early sitting in Chicago. James Grossman's recent study on the subject of black migration to Chicago Auto Hersh's study on Chicago and the nature of race relations in Chicago from 1940 to 1960. With the work the sociologist The Robert Fox School. We have the Sinclair Draken Horris some Pagan's time with study on black metropolis. We have the more recent work of William J was. Always in terms of public policy today. The work of Nicholas Sleeman and the work of Alex Kotlowitz. Why is it that Chicago seemingly has been of interest to historians sociologists and journalists and it has something to be said and the sentiment about Chicago and the nature of what was taking place in Chicago in terms of the 19th in terms of the 1930s. What about African American pop culture. It's funny because you have seen that the special issue of Ebony magazine this month deals with African-American creativity. Clearly

if any in a decade could Morcom least in terms of importance in terms of African-American creativity would be the decade of the 1930s creativity in the art works both in terms of the music and you just saw a brief smattering in terms of some of the faces. But for example the music of the 1930s would be an expression of African-American creativity. And this is a point I think in terms of Henry raised in terms of how can we look at the presenting of African-American culture at least in terms of a multicultural environment. We can show us the impact on the American culture as a whole. If for example the debate over multiculturalism in terms of whatever form it takes oftentimes talk about a separateness or least in terms of inclusion. This is clearly a case we can talk about the inclusive aspects of African-American of African-American culture and its impact in terms of transforming the performance of American music. We have nightclubs for example that continue to play an important role in popular culture. David Lewis might suggest it's in when Harlem was involved that perhaps the the the stock market crash of 19. 29 pulls the death knell only in terms of

nightlife and least in terms of quote unquote sporting people and in 1920. That wasn't the solely so nightclothes continue to survive in terms of the 1930s and it was joy or research or a legal research particularly after the repeal of prohibition in 1933 the 1930s would mark the ongoing maturation of popular or unpopular ization of jazz particularly in terms of swing. If you remember the early depictions oftentimes the jazz might have in middle America in the 1920s when it was seen as sinful exotic primitive. And all sorts of negative term by beginnings in 1931 start to see some more favorable views of jazz again by many of the quote unquote mainstream critics. And what this would be a cultured cultivated effort by black musicians if you ever seen any pictures of the Duke Ellington band or any other form of the Internet era they're all dressed in tuxedos if done deliberately to try and put forth a positive non stereotype view of

black males. That Mr. what was going to see an individual with with with a. With a white tie and tails seemingly that was going to go against the image that one might hear in this in terms of black male presenters on Amos and indeed. What it led to a growing acceptance and the beginnings of a growing acceptance of African-American culture but also at the beginning to some degree of change in terms of how African-American artists are being viewed within it. So the op ed piece in The New York Times on Louis Armstrong you get assessments in terms of how the author of that piece presented Armstrong was someone who was in the bath or on behalf of American race relations at least in terms of the context of that of this country as a whole that while all kinds of strong was clowning and morning it was off to an individual who led to this at least in terms of the beginnings of a change in the thinking of some people about African-Americans the 1930s or the sort of hate they have or rule the Savoy Ballroom for example which was known as the home of happy feet and were many of the dances of the 1920s and

30s originated jitterbugging the Lindy Hop trucking or whatever. The Savoy Ballroom was also placed off limits by Mayor LaGuardia in 1941 because of quote unquote crime wave in the hall tonight the 13th also witnessed the emergence of a variety show performances in the Apollo Theater in Washington and in New York and the Apollo at the Apollo Theater in New York in a theater in Washington and in 1930 particularly the late 1930s who witnessed the emergence of a jazz concert when Jazz can be played at Carnegie Hall. The picnic is saved by Been good. Well let's look at the Apollo very briefly because the Apollo will come of age and also it's also interesting because the Apollo had been a burlesque call in New York that had been closed by Mayor LaGuardia and it's reopened in 1930 in 1934 as the home for variety shows and the Apollo then. Now and hopefully forever will remain an integral part of the cultural life of black

Yorkers. I grew up in New York and I spent many a Saturday and Sunday shows in the balcony at the Apollo. That's where I was when the only Armstrong landed on the moon. I was walking to find the family photo. But the Apollo would be an integral part of the cultural life of black New York as was showcase the best and the hardest acts in terms of black entertainment you would be a training ground for performers. I think many of you know amateur night in the Apollo is the classic. You can either make or break someone. Luther Vandross failed five times the food by size but he came back. The Apollo would be a source of creative for creative inspiration for white artists for example Milton Berle was known to come to the Apollo with the secretary who would take down we've since heard some of the. He's a corporate governance some of its own acts. And it is oftentimes said at least in terms with some bitterness among black artists that while the work was becoming increasingly set by white audiences there were also being ripped off and exploited by white audiences. But on one hand it

doesn't show at least an appreciation for the talents and geniuses of black male and black female performances. Very briefly but just to talk about an Apollo show a group of people for a week get 31 performances over a course of a week. Four performances per day starting at 10:00 in the morning and five performances on Wednesdays Saturdays and Sundays. The cost of an Apollo performance would be 15 cents during the week going up to a high of 50 cents where we get performance. What you've got with your 15 cents and you can generally stay there all day and a lot of people went there and stayed there all day. You got to show you a short clip what to first be Betty Boop and not Mickey Mouse. That us an impression yesterday but it was also interesting in terms of Betty Boop because one can argue with some cultural historians that Betty Boop is a rip off at least in terms of African-American female performers in the 1920s. But you see a of food court too. You've got a newsreel. You've got a feature film usually of film because you didn't go to the Apollo to see a decent movie.

You got to see who is Ralph Cooper and who still alive is probably somebody you might want to consider interviewing. You've got a chorus girls. Been You got to intro actors usually a singer or performer and you've got the chorus girls again and then you've got the headline headliner or whomever that act might be. But for example at least in terms of when we're to look at the bands you could get Duke Ellington Fletcher Henderson Andy Kirk chick with Count Basie Jimmy Lansford Cab Calloway were all current headliners at the Apollo. It's quite obvious that these individual band leaders had a direct influence on people such as Benny Goodman Glenn Miller and the Dorsey Brothers. And one can argue from fairly or unfairly that at least Benny Goodman is the only one to acknowledge the influence in terms of black musicians on his craft and craft his bands. Glen Dawson is the Dawson brothers and Glenn Miller would not make that. But what this shows the impact of black creativity and perhaps is something that you might want to ask in terms of surviving musicians who were and some of the musicians from the Big Band era are

still alive. But it's also just in terms of how the black creativity was perceived by others. Edward Peck who was the historian at college and is a graduate of Center City University of New York has written several articles about a young man coming of age in New York in the 1930s and being very favorably impressed at least in terms of some of the performances he saw at the Apollo. And he'll talk about his experiences in taking the subway uptown to one hundred and twenty fifth Street and watching as they're watching X at the Apollo. Or you can also perhaps in terms of people such as Helen Oakley dancers or Stanley dance who are permanent critics and reviewers they get an impact at least in terms of what black creativity did in terms of trying to turn that change that thinking least in terms of a goodly number of white Americans were starting to acknowledge the creativity of African-Americans. You also have the legendary jam sessions that would take place among musicians for example a rhythm club one on one hundred and thirty second Street in Harlem was known in terms of the jam sessions that would take place

after a late night performance in any club you know uptown for flatwater or downtown for white or that people might assemble 12 and playing till 6 o'clock in the morning. This would allow black and white musicians to play together. And again you could see where a popular culture might serve as a bridge in terms of for the betterment of race relations at least in terms among people who respect each other as peers in terms of musical artistic talent. This can be seen at least in terms of a harbinger for what happens in the late 1930s when for example the Benny Goodman band will be the first predominately will be the first all white man to make use of black musicians. But there's a historic role that blacks has played. One of the important features of eyes on the prize. What a nice surprise too is they gave voice to African-American women particularly at least in terms of how I for one gave voice in terms of the role of the women's political council in which in terms of its work in Montgomery in terms of the Montgomery bus boycott. We know about some of

the men but we don't know about the women. And I think this is the story really that was that an audience would find interesting about the of the women's the black woman's dance of the 1930s for example lil Horton Armstrong Louis Armstrong White had her own fans in the 1930s. The Dixie sweethearts were prominent but in the 1930s. You had had the Harlem play girls which would be a forerunner to perhaps who are what many of you might know as the international sweethearts of rhythm were a prominent black woman band. Of the 1940s. You had also had jam sessions between black men and black women were women held the role. And I think some of you might have read the article in The Boston Globe perhaps and several months ago about a music professor at Boston University who doubted whether or not women could play the trombone and the trumpet. Certainly black musicians in the 1930s had no doubts as to whether or not women such as Ernestine Davis could play the trumpet or hold her own and was in terms of competition against any male trumpeter.

You also have women as pianists for example Hazel Scott. In our in our own right as a musician and also later Adam Clayton Powell his wife Mary Lou Williams or merks pianist with the Andy crook Dan before going into his solo career. You also have prominent black women singers who could be featured some way for example the Ellington who gave voice to the the band classic. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. She's the one who's singing and singing that and it's one of the reasons why that song was able to capture these tensions so many people. Perhaps Ella Fitzgerald because Ella Fitzgerald would be an interesting way to tell the Apollo story somebody who won the young talent show the Apollo in the 1930s and that there's all sorts of rumors about Ella Fitzgerald having to be pushed on a stage to perform and being scared at least in terms and Ralph who would urge her to say so when the talent show in the way in which her career can progress. Helen Humes noted singer to 30 feet quite obviously Billie Holiday. I think the success at least in terms given to the recent HBO airing of the special and

Josephine Baker will certainly allow phones in terms of a story that would deal with music and also deal with women more so than the both male performers. Let's look at D.C. D.C. It's interesting because on one hand you have the federal government located in Washington D.C. at the same time you have a secret city at least in terms of blacks who are living in Washington D.C. where the black population in Manhattan in the 1930s might have been concentrated in in Manhattan. You don't necessarily have that in terms of D.C. you are separate and distinct neighborhoods to black residents in D.C. for example Georgetown. And that's one of the what the New Deal didn't do it directly with the push black questions out of Georgetown particularly the area around 26 and P Street Northwest and pushed them to a longstanding black community and to other parts of the city. But also you would have Lovejoy park which was located just south the Howard University which is the home of many faculty members at Howard and many of the elite black Washingtonians who would have the short neighborhood which would be a rather.

Euphemistic term to describe a territory rather than a neighborhood for make up a collection of farm communities that would include the famous street which was known in Washington D.C. as the colored man's Connecticut Avenue or at least shows a nationwide ad for Black Broadway. You would have the Southwest neighborhoods that were gentrified in the 1950s when the context of the 1930s would be home of many of the city's poorer residents. We had aliud dwellings which would have their own political culture and their own and their and their own subculture. You would have lots of Washington D.C. That would be there to be virtually agrarian areas Anacostia for example or a Dean wood area of northeast Washington D.C. which was not too far from the Prince George's County border but was still largely rural in the context of the 1930s that's when any boroughs had a training school for room for black girls. What if it was any institution that could unite black Washingtonians and who are deeply deeply divided by class. The vision would be how a

theatre located at 17th Street Northwest the Howard Theatre like the Apollo was able to attract members of the black working class but it also attracted Howard University students and Howard University faculty. That's one of the few places and least in terms of Washington D.C. Wycliffe's divisions and they're very class and class Kansas City could oftentimes be overcome. You wouldn't have the most popular cultural and it would be the most popular and respected center for entertainment in a city but very few of the city's poor residents the Tiffey those who live in for Southwest or for North East actually came to the Howard Theatre last week for people who will live in Lucroy flock or to shore. They were attracted to to to the Howard Theatre rather than people who live in the outlying areas. Native son Duke Ellington people we referred to him not to but Eddie you would have kept Calloway who would make appearances as well as Jimmy Lunsford at the same time the the the how with the end would have his own Callan's shows for example

a young singer who graduated from Armstrong high school in the arts and graduated from high school and she used to think see this person performing talent shows in high school. So he had a good voice and. He was very handsome when it was really exciting. You'd also have Bill Kenni of ink spots would be a winner of the talent show certainly in terms of. How a theatre needed. However neither the Apollo Theatre nor the House Theatre was the theater were blues or gospel or heard in in 1930. In terms of the of the Apollo Theater It was a conscious decision by the owner French Schiffman who said that New York City was a city. People want to listen to the music they want to listen to any of that quote unquote country music. So you did not hear any blues or gospel at least in terms of the Apollo and in 1930. Many of the quote unquote goodly people that it's the richest people living in Harlem. Never said never set foot inside the Apollo. Arguing that it was sinful.

If any of you can remember the song I guess it's almost 20 years old now. Bill Withers song Saturday night in Harlem. There's a lyric in that song and we talked about Saturday night and harmony says. The hip folks just got home from a party and the good folks are either rigid religious people just got up. In other words it just shows that duality in terms of what's taking place in Harlem is Saturday night and come Sunday morning. Who's meeting whom. Coming home from a party or who's going to church. But those words never met. And in terms of the Apollo and of the McFate Mahalia Jackson for example never performed at the Apollo but this is different quite obviously from Chicago for example in terms of Chicago you'll have the blues making a successful transition from from Mississippi. And listen to this what will emerge as the urban blues of Chicago in the 30s 40s and still listening today. You'll have Atlanta which in turn will become a home in terms of the south east and blues which will be our and which will be fine. Home among many of the city's residents also the land is more racially

segregated than certainly in New York which you'll see only recent of Atlanta is in terms of how black colleges. And also to some degree Washington D.C. or re-invite cultural opportunities on their campuses. If you are if you're black and you want to go to theater you can go downtown where you either want to be for the ticket or you're going to be segregated but the theaters at least in terms of quote unquote high theatrical performances let's say shows some Shakespeareans performances for example might oftentimes be performed on black college campuses. The episode and two for example I think of dealing with the Howard campus which I think was a later time for show the performance of let's say a Shakespearean performance and the how is Camp campus which would be criticized by student activist in the 1960s. But that's at least in terms of the attitude that we set administrators and professions wanted their students to have an appreciation for the quote unquote European or classics. But quite honestly in terms of the major importance of popular culture in the 1930s would be in terms of what took place in home

entertainment those people who didn't have the money to go to a club or to a theater or to or to any type of variety show. However inexpensive they might be. People listen to the radio people of all races all ethnic groups and listening in all parts of the country to listen to the radio. But for example African-Americans listen sort of radio and I think there will be some only in terms of the surveys shown today that tend to depict that African-Americans watch more television than any other racial or ethnic group. Well listen to some preliminary surveys and these sketches they are would give some indication of the they act Americans listening to the radio. But it raises questions as to what people were listening to. Raymond Andrews for example has written a recent autobiography in last radio baby which he talked about growing up in the late thirties early 1940s and how special the radio was in terms of his rural Georgia family in terms of what it meant about news and always in terms of particularly in cities where there wasn't a black a black newspaper or Irish but it wasn't a black paper but also about national and international events.

But it also raises the question about Amos and Andy Amos Nandy presents a rather interesting case study in terms of black public opinion the 1930s. Because of radio performances of Amos and Andy would evoke both support and criticism among blacks. Amos and Andy was listened to at home and if he didn't have a radio in your home or if he didn't have electricity. People oftentimes went down to the department store and listen Amos nanny or a Maslany might be piped in to the Apollo Theater. I think all the know how important name Sandy was to even in terms of some factories in the 1930s that for the 50 minutes the show was on that all work ceased. And so the people thought employers or employees can listen to Amish and indeed the barber shop and the importance of barber shop or beauty shop in terms of African-American communities. You have people becoming famous nannies and a radio show was debated and discussed by blacks of all classes and from their responses to Amos and in many people did not find the show offensive. Many of the people found that show to be deeply offensive and there would be massive protests

by black against the radio performances of Amos Nanni over 100 signatures were collected in 1931 among blacks and a campaign led by Robert De and editor of the Pittsburgh Courier calling for the cancellation of Amos and Andy as the show's demeaning and offensive to blacks and particularly to black women. However went to argue with terms of Amos Nandy black opinion and internments Nandy was not a more social class. So for example you have black leaders who are supportive as well as critical of Amos Nandy the black working class members of which would be supportive as well as critical or even in terms of low income black Westerners people who are supportive of critical. I just think that the masses of blacks like the and the Indy and the elite did not. It was not necessarily that simple. There was a debate and division among the African-American population. It was far more divisive in terms of its responses to Amos Nguni. The protest was successful. Amos Sandy stayed on but of what it was starts to show that you're starting to see the mobilization of efforts by blacks

to try and change public images of themselves. In other words blacks black to recognize that the 1930s at least the tourists they could perhaps mount significant campaign to try and pressure advertisers or produces a show to try and change the images of blacks. They were unsuccessful but there was at least served the stage one that argue fully in terms of future activity another important form of popular entertainment will be the playing of records. And if you start to see a revival of the recording industry in the 1930s. And particularly in terms of you get a sense in terms of what type of records were being sold Jaspan would be the letus leading seller in terms of records. For example somebody living in Mississippi may not be able to see Duke Ellington I doubt if the Duke Ellington band was going to go to Tupelo Mississippi to perform. But for example you could buy records of the Ellington band that could be played in juke joint in terms of Tupelo Mississippi Gospel would be the second

seller the most popular type of records being record. And it's interesting because you're starting to see this is a time in which Thomas Dorsey who had been a prominent blues singer will now become a gospel performer and will start to publicize gospel records rural blues and to a lesser degree urban blues. In terms of the types of records and trends what people were listening to. And responding to in aspects of popular culture you have you would have informal quote unquote house party for example and other things would be a more class line in cities such as D.C. Chicago and Atlanta which had prominent black middle class and upper middle class you would have rich boys with the wives that prominent individuals would assemble and meet to play bridge several times a week we meet even according to one woman we talk play bridge and have lots of fun. This is the type of behavior that E. Franklin Frazier is talking about is white or criticized in the late 1950s in terms of the black bourgeoisie for the working class who would be different as the court party would be with her in terms of bid with

gains there would be an inexpensive form of entertainment. And these people would have big parties and of the relatively inefficient forms of entertainment you have literary gathering in cities such as New York D.C. Atlanta and Boston for example you would have members of the black middle class and the black elite who would get together to discuss poetry. Would get together to discuss contemporary at best and to discuss books. And of course you would have them read 40 the read twice to go on a special meaning in the 1930s in as much as people needed the additional quarters that would come in for people for rent parties and full of rent parties for example repaired quarter at the door. But all you could eat in terms of pick the picks the chitlins fried chicken green and music weather and friends of patrol or live entertainment. I was talking about this to Judy Richardson last week and. At least in terms of other ethnic groups in terms of new york city. Yes you would have a similar sort of list in terms of coming together in terms of a community network that

helps somebody who might be short of paying or family that might be sort of paying interest. But the same kind that sort of activity whether an insular ethnic community. Did not take on the same significance in this in terms of a Arend party it was done for example among Italian Americans and it was done for example in East in East Harlem. I don't know who was the aping of them but they might have seen them in terms of west of Fifth Avenue. But at least in terms of Italian-Americans living east of Fifth Avenue in the north of husband 10st would also have a similar to rent parties but they weren't rent for it. There will be new movies now. Clayton Cox was going to speak in terms of Hollywood and listen to the Hollywood and the popular culture. But what about the movies by off the show or the 1930s. How are they viewed by black audiences and how were these movies seen in these in terms of Hollywood's portrayal of the negro. One of the shortcomings of the Micheaux movies is the fact that oftentimes there still silent. But if you're

having a move towards the talkies How will black audiences respond to silent movies or both the actors and actresses on the screen are still black. Thomas Chris was suggest unfavorably. I think it's something that needs to be researched further and just in terms of how blacks are starting to respond to how black producers reporting that betraying blacks on a film for example how is black crime movies with black with black villains black police officers black detective play out in terms of the films in the 1930s. What about black Westerns. How does that play out. Now granted it might be a form of escapist behavior but for example How did audiences respond to those movies. You also have presentations going with the Federal Theater. Very briefly I want to do what other aspects of Negro Theater is that but not the Federal Theater in the 1930s for example at least in terms of black produced theater particularly in terms of hall of you would often find these place with protest themes there would be a play for example and tattled never no more which you had done with an anti lynching motif. You would have a

play in Padel blood stream which dont have a depiction of black and white conflict mind later you would have a play entitled they shall not die dealing with Scottsboro you will have a play by Langston Hughes and petaled Mulato which dealt with the illicit interracial relationship in the south youll have an anti-war play entitled Peace on Earth and keep in mind also those significant anti-war sentiments in the 1930s. Youll have a play produced by the Harlem suitcase theater which was in the new offices of the international workers organization and its members who include Langston Hughes will include Luis Patterson the wife of William Patterson and a this in our own right and would include Robert Earl Jones the father James Earl Jones you would have the growth of the clan in play as a prominent. Acting troupe in the 1930s who did a play in tattled joy seeding glory and listen in terms of Father Divine. I haven't seen the script for that particular play it would be very interesting in

terms of see our father and the violin had been depicted in this particular play. Good play dealing with black history and prominent themes and personalities in terms of black history. Frederick Douglass Booker T Washington. It's also interesting that one of the actors prominent in their roles in the Clinton players with the and Davis and a much more interesting to talk to him about his recollections. Quite interesting in terms of the culture is the fact that there would be divisions in terms of class about how African-American culture was oftentimes perceived the old Negro family the leaders of the African-American community or the self-described leaders of the African-American community oftentimes shun most forms of popular culture. They could use that in a column when he performed the Apollo and vulgar and racially degrading. If any Remember the nature of the review that the boys wrote of home the hall in which he said after reading that book I felt like taking a shower I had never read anything so filthy. That it would be similar to rooms. How many of the elite responded in terms of the 1930s to some of the performances at the Apollo or some of

the performances that the or the at any other place. For example the black the lead in New York and in Boston for example would go to the theater downtown rather than the theater in in Harlem. The black weed in Boston as Natalie Cromwell talks about in terms of her book would go to City Hall would still go to the museum and would take pride on that. I think Kryder in effect they are the only black family there at the same time the black elite will continue to frequent its own summer colonies. There was a resort industry among blacks have Highland Beach in Maryland which is located on the Eastern Shore Maryland which had been spared. That is a research community by blacks in the 1880s with still welcome would still be where Carol summered would still be where the descendants of Frederick Douglass summered and other prominent black residents of Washington D.C.. Idlewild Michigan located north of Detroit will be where many black moneyed residents of Detroit and Chicago would then

spend their summers. Asbury Park. The tourists would attract the money blacks and Philadelphy and also from New York City Westhampton long island would attract many blacks from the hall and to some degree Brooklyn. Quite obviously oclock at the vineyard would be the summer home and a continuing home of many moneyed black residents of Boston at Saratoga Springs would be a frequent place for many blacks to go for the summer. There are these individuals with quidem that partake in tennis and golf matches jogging parties moonlight sales formal parties horseback riding. Horseback riding. But what does this mean. In other words it means there was some segment of the African-American population a very small segment of the who are largely untouched by the depression. Life went on the debutante balls continue. The fraternity membership continued into formal obligations of one fraternity still continue. But still that type of that type of culture still can still continue.

But the same time you also have forms of mistrust of math based culture. One cannot view the numbers set at least in terms of policy. Ract Iraq did whatever you want to call it. Numbers would be a vital part at least in terms of the cultural experiences and entertainment pursuits and leisure pursuits of lower class residents in cities throughout the country. People live to hit the number hoping that at least in terms that would be the pay day that will allow them to perhaps buy a radio to buy a suit off if really big to perhaps pay next month's rent. But still it meant something in terms of let's say a form of outlet of relief only in terms of let's say of all in terms of how individuals saw what the numbers meant. The segment of the supporters of this film. I remember Harlem that deals with a number runner in the throes of his ninth in the 1930s talking about his experiences. People gamble and we can throw craps were quite quite common

particularly with the lower and lower income neighborhoods. I mentioned this particular in terms of numbers because the numbers will set the stage for the Negro Baseball League the negro based fully in the 1930s will emerge as major cultural and community institutions and many of the owners of the Negro Baseball League team were individuals who were numbered rather or adult or controlled numbers or number out in how they got the money to buy staff and support the team. The heart of the Negro League would be in northern and to some degree southern urban communities. It is interesting when Terry introduced me that she said in terms of my relationship with black side I wear several hats. So. This is the Birmingham black barons which was a baseball team on the 90s of the 1930s largely located in in Birmingham. Its players in the 1930s in the 1940s would include for example

a young Willie Mays a young Hank Aaron. K.. This team was lost the outside of the negro professional league and engaged in swimming activities because it was too expensive to travel from Birmingham to all the other cities. I think many do you know that overgraze supposed to be a very popular move in terms of young black youth. Maybe we can get them to where the homestead Grays rather than the bend the infamous Raiders or the Chicago White Sox. The homestead Grays were based in. Pittsburgh first and Quoc with. Recognize the fact that Washington D.C. had a very large black population that would be willing to pay to see the baseball team particularly when the senators were on the road before the homestead great beginning in 1938 and had it from 1938. Played many games in Washington D.C. The Homestead Grays would be the team of Oscar Charleston Cool Papa Bell and other individuals in the Negro and

the Baseball Hall of Fame today. And this would be the Kansas City. And this is several pages too. But there would also be other teams for example Pittsburgh crawfished the Chicago American giants the New York black Yankees the Philadelphia stars the Newark Eagles Baltimore light Giants they've been. Really what is he like. Giants. But Jacksonville Redcap the Atlanta Black Crackers the team will be Atlanta white crackers. Added the Negro League games were a rallying point for community activity. These were community teams there would be a unifying element of black communities in transition. Keep in mind that urbanization has been a process that for many blacks is less than two decades old. So what about the Negro Baseball League would be an effort to try and cement a community such a community among urban blacks would not be uncommon particularly Satchel Paige were in town for example 20 to 30000 people to come and watch Satchel Paige

Paige clearly realize that more people were coming to watch the Satchel Paige who were coming to watch senators Senators then or was it left to what first and war first in peace and left the American Boom. But also any politician particularly in terms of a northern city for white politician as well as a black politician want to go for the Negro League gain because there will be 20000 people many of them will be registered voters. You don't have to campaign in a black neighborhood. But if you go to a Negro League game and pass out Circulus candidacy crowds people might take you seriously. Four candidates would use appearances at the Negro League games as rallies but the Negro League games would also serve as protest purposes. For example in 1937 f a manly the owner of the New Black Eagle state to stop lynching day at the Met at the ballpark trying to engage massive support of people in attendance on behalf of Wagner cost in anti-lynching bill. In other words it was a way of life. It was

entertaining but at the same time the Negro Leagues could surf important means the community if he hit it talked today and we stories about black owned businesses. For example the Negro Leagues were a direct spur to black rooming houses the black owned hotel and the other black owned businesses in the context of the in the context of the 1930s. What also equally certain the commercial purpose paying customers 20 to 30000 thousand people paying to watch a baseball game. The black Yankees and a Cuban and a Cuban star did not necessarily win negro world series in the 1930s. But certainly the black box office appeal. These two teams affected the thinking of black branch Rickey who realized that perhaps. It might not just be morally right but it also might pay and listen terms to have blacks come to the hill to watch Black play on the Dodgers. It's also interesting because in the 1930s we'll see some sports writers start to call for the integration of Major League Baseball Shirley Povich the Washington or the

Washington Post sports columnist would be one of the pioneers in terms of following this certainly by having watched the Negro League teams in Washington D.C. He was aware of a talent and he certainly knew that the home that the senators could use. Throughout the Reagan presidency. We heard Ronald Reagan talk about his experiences as a sportscaster in terms of how he supported the desegregation of Major League Baseball. I think many of you know I'm a sports fanatic. I have yet to see any reference to any statement to Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan made in the 1930s supporting school was supporting the segregation of Major League Baseball. Put all the least in terms of the manifestations of pop culture to show five minutes and of resiliency in terms of African-American life no matter how oppressive the conditions were in terms of the economic conditions confronting blacks. But also with the trunk. Of Casey in terms of how popular culture could serve as a forum of protest. Look common theme of water being and Soozie which is a popular comedy team

man and woman in the 1930s who are known for some of their double entendres and rather risque statements that probably make two Live Crew blush would oftentimes engage in a sex act but they would also have political protest within it within some of their skit. For example Suzy would say this is once get ready to go down south. And part of being would respond. I'm going with you Sue. Suzy would say Why didn't you go with me. Her daughter would say cause there's no this too many. Up down south. What do you mean by butter. Well early in the morning gotta wake up then gotta get up then you go out on the farm and if you don't do the work like the boss said the boss would beat you up. And I ain't going up South. Many of you might notice in terms of moms mainly in Lincoln terms and while moms may be with or rather one image in terms of comedy should oftentimes deal with some of her routines that would have political content. She told the story in terms of a black man and a white man who had robbed the bank killed three tellers two

police officers and wounded a bystander. And we're in a sense to be hanged. As they're about to be executed. The White man pleaded. I don't want to be hung. I don't want to be hung as a black accomplice said. Oh man we don't kill up all them people and you talk about like you don't want to be hung. They're going to they're going to hang you. So why don't we just face it like a man and two which is why the count a couple said. That's easy for you to say. You're used to it. But again in terms of in terms of anti lynching protests against lynching within the comedy skit. Lastly in terms of protests and with in terms of failed protests. Just tell an anecdote about three high school students women who attended an Armstrong high school in Washington D.C. which was the vocational high school in Washington. And if any of you are familiar with terms of Washington you know there was an immense rivalry between Dunbar and Armstrong. On weekends. These three high school students would visit the Smithsonian Museum and the Washington Monument. It was cheap and inexpensive form of entertainment. On the weekends that the Washington Monument to be no elevator operator so the people could board the

elevator go up to the top of the monument look around and then come back there. Each of these girls or young women they were about 14 or 15 or 16. But right up to the top separately they would each would go up separately then each would come down separately at what they did this because they were thick did it consciously knowing that white southerners visiting the monument would not board the elevator if a colored girl was on the inside if they were going to have fun in terms of looking at the young. And looking at the the Washington Monument. But also in terms of striking a blow in their own way against racial segregation in the nation's capital. My thought was one of those people. And then my. Point.

Is. How did that position in this guy's like Leadbelly in the Gulf region. These murder centers were when he got in there. How did they fit into this country in terms of liberty in terms of the Texas blues all in terms of building of the rooms in terms of Chicago Urban close. What's interesting is that the friendship was this good fall the one. That it always will perform. You know Paul you are scared to death that somebody who has been convicted murder from Wyoming on the phone. What would that mean if we got made to him with a nation or country all ought to be say sitting on the wrong image to lower class status hall having convicted murderers singing on a stage and being paid for it. So no it was not received well in terms of you could buy some of this renter's insurance

in terms of the race records. Obviously the big bruising will enjoy. He also according to Chicago in part because of the nature of black Mississippians and blacks living with migrated to Chicago from the Mississippi River Delta who still have an appreciation in terms of the food for the content of the blues was treated to traditionally really Druzes the medical records of word of mouth for example radio was still largely putting forth the stereotype images of blacks but as Nelson George points out in this most recent book you do have some individuals who are serving as promotion agents and particularly from urban areas who are going into the rural countryside as selling records and particularly chosen juke joints instance. And so it's quite possible that a song might be first released in New York in 1933 and still be playing in Mississippi in

1935. I mean you're going to have records and then I mean to some degree yes particularly in terms of let's say the blues records and some of the gospel songs. You say. Are. Yeah. Because I listed the data with ingestions turned me on that if the unemployment rate in New York City as a whole was 25 percent in terms of white male workers and that's how male workers were used as the measuring Kuepper. For unemployment didn't in the hollow some 60 to 80 percent. Not an impact that obviously means is this is when you start to see the real changes taking place in Harlem in terms of a community that if you've seen the pictures of Harlem in the 1920s you'll you'll notice that Harlem was

still was the suburban largely a suburban community was populated by white black middle and black and stable black working class families to quote unquote. But with this with the massive impact of the Depression and the unemployment rate in the least in terms of Harlem that's when you start to see many of the houses that goes up and White House start to be subdivided further. And so what had been let's say a one family house or perhaps a two family dwelling in the 90s in the 1980s and I think what pointings will become a rooming house may be holding X number of people many of them transplant old and many of them out of work. So that's when you start see some of the spatial changes taking place in Harlem and what some would argue is the beginning of the physical deterioration of our call. It because I it's hard to say because the twin would be a better indicator at least in terms of what was taking place new automobile industry in terms of Detroit

by Detroit and what and how that affected how that affected. How it would happen at home it's affecting me in terms of those families that had to let go their mates and and their butlers. That would that the most telling measure particularly since is a disproportionate percentage of African-American women have always worked in comparison at least in terms to to white women. And if there were two incomes were necessary in 1920s to provide for let's say. The maintenance of of a family unit then what would happen when both people are out of out of work. Also the fact that in terms of the decade the 1920s that really. Blacks were hit by the lead time earth fire and particularly mixed in terms of some of the service industries whether it's in the garment industry or some of the heavy to white industries in terms in terms of new york city it's hard to say with interest when one first starts to see the depression take its toll in terms of black residents in New York. I would think

issue important to control about. One of the comments made this morning about the depression the depression and the depression in Washington D.C. It's true that we can turn many people argued to Washington D.C. was recession proof because was the federal government. But that was white employees in Washington D.C. because keep in mind as a result of the Wilson administration there had been real limits placed upon the employment opportunities available for blacks within the federal government. So the federal government was real it was not really an employer of large number of blacks but the same. Number of. Your. Friend. Jim prenup is now Mr. Paxton how. Many years to give him a proper connection. With that project. Besides that can be. Usually turned around. Industry. May want. To. One and get

30 fresh. You just carry on school property you are obsessed with your look like dirties and particularly in New York. Right right of way Brown and his paintings were completely wrong. That has now reached this visual representation of New York. He grew up in and Born on the street in Little Italy living in the Bronx. I first met him and I said hey is this for us. He was working on a series in Kansas about Lawrence. Tells me now here's a chance. To picture the greatest time in the same

time. It's. Quite a testimony to finally the recognition of his work in. Iran. I spent some time with him or 18 months in Spain and Lincoln game when he was there wanting to talk about a little bit are. Mark antonio. And. He's working now a series of questions about the recent Daily News. Right. So what is going to show us now is memories growing up you are from the 1930s and it's a real window real. Insight into why why these paintings are really national treasures and I'm. Glad to find it. So. Before we start like a few words I want to thank people inviting me to go to war.

Thank you. I come from you people. I don't even know getting. I'm 77 I was like an old man. Got them I've been everything but you people. You've met. A James Bacharach James most of the grades. You mentioned LaGuardia or Robeson. You mention the jazz band. I've been a jazz fan. I know I come up here like that. But you know it's an old thing when you talk about the very best to get it right at the OK kind of thing. Think about the riots in 1954. We went in to watch your wife yell at me. I was late to work and went right into it. You know we were just this is a sense of feeling good about the way we go about it even now about it would be going about what you do. He got attacked by people with the big beat. And this is what it's all about. That's what music that's what makes and is why I think my pain is think you get when.

We got to go. We want to the people and. We. Don't have a oh my oh my you to my hair. Go ahead. You have. To. OK. All right. Can you hear me. OK. OK. Jimi want to get. Where are we going. Well this is what you call. Hi. This is about the dreams. With your wife is ages and if you can help us to the title of this first find the sky. It can be treated. In every city. In America. You live in some of the kind of image and working people call myself. That's what we

did we played ball. And this is our dream suburbia. We got there we found out it's death. OK. Just a detergent and keep the junk man. And this is how we felt in the three years that we saw in the 30s. Really a blue period. This is where we were. Collecting newspapers. So we're you know we've always been and in many ways. Poverty nation people are struggling this with the other one. This is the first time an unconscious thing as a young boy. You know all I want to Wall Street. No one told me about it. But this is what I came out 20 years later I mean just beginning. I think people working people felt like or walk through with an evil place. In this city. Wall Street the evil place. You know I have no conscience nothing nothing I just didn't I think that in this way I felt about Wall Street. That's. Clines.

OK. OK. People. A poor people store. Everybody went as quiet and those days of 30 mammogram they were bad days and were great days and by Jesus Christ we all felt miserable. But we all went because we shop. And they right get a first time rule abstraction they get the bottom with the clothes. Right. Cross-breeding much Kline's the Union Square will talk about that later. That's a different story. We're all just up but after the break we're going to go back in your life with one. And you know I found myself in a reform school. Cap. That's where I got my education. To learn my design. I read a lot of things about her. Background. And. I also learned. Racism at that young kid eight years old. And you know. We had two. Black. Youngsters and like my show eight nine and ten. And we saw her brothers. They whipped these kids. We'll give them the rest. And let things stay with me my whole lifestyle. I never forgot it. And to these young

kids came to my house 10 years later and stayed with us for a while. And I got to know him and talk about that later and baseball and fighting. OK. This is the reform's who are playing ball games were on penance. Penance. If. You read James Joyce. What drove an artist. This is what that was all about. Restricting the cap and reform you know the tightness going on in the young feller over here. Jenny we played ball together. And this guy's back there and do all up penance. Oh yeah. You know I'm finding out when you're on friends that you regret it and. You don't plan to work that way. I think like people who don't want to tell you to come here. Just read this part even though it's great policy. But you rebelled and about what's going on. And this is what you didn't consider rebelling and going this is what I did like everybody. And this is the purple church. Ghost you know the and people.

Felt that going to church quote and going to Death was church and that was tied in with the economy. And. People. But then you know we we played stickball. And this is the Lower East Side West Side. And if you take the top off the cross is the coffin. Kind of people going to churches to go up to the death and you know all the people are. Going. To do. That by the way owned by Jerome Robbins. OK. Have we gone fast enough slow enough. OK. Yeah we do. But this is the union hall. I got involved with the electrical work CIO. And this was the. Turning point my life returned to America when the show developed. First. It opened a young. Woman African black all kinds of people and you have one can to be unheard of in American history and her no. All of a sudden is young and everybody sitting around we doing our job. And this was the reason these this flock of America. Came out of the CIO.

And this is. The beginning of it. You. Know. This was. The night nightclub in the village but was unable to place even 20 passes. But the only thing I liked about this club besides the beach me it's held here was up on the top the. Real jam section. Really while playing jazz jazz again. That's what I caught years ago period. And look look at that. If I paint like that of Eugene's can't. I did it once. This place. You go to a village. Yeah. Gay people would get me when I look back when hard stuff. But it's a different ballgame now. When I took. The wait is you know the doormen. I went up to Sinatra many years ago. So I guess in the 50s he would be with kind of low he didn't have anything. And his bodyguards go with the body look again. So when I made the film they came out of the fact that was not a doctor.

But that's where it came from. Well. This is a coding shop. I Yogi and amalgamated. This would work the people. I know in spite of the condition in the shops. There was the vitality. And my sense is that Ralph you always make the place Naprosyn that you can work. Burin. Have any jazz. You know you don't play around with each other you don't fool around with just you can't go to a place you gotta throw some play. I'm with the daily news now and the men hate it. It's like a coal mine. And all night long the plane we China in that little thing that makes it work the way you get work. Yeah. But you know what's happening today. Eliminate the time and the Jewish. REPORTER And the Chinese and the sweatshops back the same business that we went through. My mother. Your mother a lot of mothers. They involve the same story today. The woman and the Chinese people. And you know. People in China. Are mixed up.

Puerto Rican people. And the Chinese people they can be working in the sweat shops. One thing you wanted to bring out about LaGuardia being a friend of these. Union. Workers at Wellington or LaGuardia. LaGuardia will tell you that a painting I got to close with Watergate came right out of this whole business. Well I want to go back. You want to go back and get a second. Half a second. Going. To go back. OK. Which one. Yeah. There. Are two areas. This is the 20s. 30s 40s and 50s. This is playing the blues. And this is going to work. And then that whole area. Does wonderful jazz music was up there. And this is what I will later on I get some painting done on jazz. So we got what we have to pre-painted big ears on jazz. Where we're all. Who's that guy. You know. Coltrane.

I live in the cold every two years. I a five pain. I showed great. I. Just came out. You know I didn't I just. Listen let's listen. Listen. Listen I might get some pain one day. I'm bored stiff. I see where you. Put it. Am. Quite strange about. Being big big beautiful head. And if you're all that you know you absorb we come down here and that's the way it works. OK. Well this is time. Feast fest. This is what he had that little day. And sweater all day and. And he's a. Kind of religious kind of thing to got together. And. Bought the pastries and. Mussels and clams and all that kind of thing. With a song that I learned to design a way. I learned design from the captive with. Free. I want people understand. No mystery painting. You do. Thank you Frank. Thank you. Nothing nothing comes out of that experience something. Then you

don't something you know. So I did all these things. Know I was out of it. Let me just make this make that. You know people the kids are walking around in balloons. Of course not commercialized. You go to have a cup of coffee or a $2. Sausage sandwich $7 to rip off. But those days you know you went down here and there's that kind of purification with each other. You go and smell the spirit get up think about. Time and I think. I was going to make you want to beat me on the I don't know how to talk on this but it all worked up about how do you get that to get it going. When. They play the music they drink this they drank it on the set. They dance together. You know really. And the thing they resent that most would think about a time. When they became Americans and we had to go and meet in the bar. And that broke up the home. Put all the holiday they stayed home. They knew nothing about whiskey and nothing about nothing. I'm not the only thing it was they stayed home they played cards. The family. Man we all we can't we had run out. My mother went on to go to animals.

Where are you gone. You got to stay home. Nobody stayed home. We had to become American. We got to go nightclubs. We had to drink scotch though I like scotch. Whiskey. I just drank wine to folks that were good taste. But that was to me. Her new point. Breaking up you and your family and all our homes we ran away from my family were to my background. We came American we came Tip-Top we became nothing. That's what we are. We trying to struggle to get them back again. OK. And my father was an iceman. And I. Made that. We called Jesus Christ the man. And you know he's a hard working man. I made him a symbol of the symbolism of the working man. When you work in the shop. You guys hate this. This is a rough life. What do you mean. Hey Randi. I'm Courtney Cox. I'm married. I've got a couple of kids and I'm Jesus. I got married. I had to work every day. I don't work. My kids don't eat. You should. I'm Jesus.

And most working men think I'm picking the beating you know talking about stuff in direct with a woman who work in. Private and the man at work. Who said I'm caught. Going to trap. But I show you. You know the men on a cross. And how they live and what they ate what they drank. And I think I have baby hits too. And I also got old sign on air about Andy called the New York Giant try to get a Jewish ballplayer 1927 did work. He wasn't good. But I sneaked in it just like the Giants tried to. The. New York guy tried to sneak a boat by the cooking fuel go up later that the White. Nigger wait on taking him out. But that struggle was only going by trying to grab the guy you spoke by the boat. I got to use that Branch Rickey. And. They would try and sneak in. Like place. Goes up in the Bronx that wonderful. Little story. I got to just have a second. I'm so excited so I can go I can get when you got together. That. We're going next we're going to make.

No. Well that's a family supper. Immigrant family. Next Door lissom next door. That blackspot they're like why he was born. That's true. By the way Sullivan Street. I was raised in 173 Sheldon street. LaGuardia was one on the left hand side. 171. So you know the whole business of LaGuardia. Tie in with the Italians. That time would you trade your labor movement. In the. Sidney Holdman. LaGuardia. You didn't get. To be what it was. But I think it's social consciousness LaGuardia. First time you're a socialist. And LaGuardia was a great media backed factions. Do not want you to go with a politician. He came from the jungle. And. Well here you have. The Republicans and the Democrats effused the people got them together.

And he was. One of them. He tried to do what we're all trying to do. How do you get the working class to move up and how to get up on the mess that we're in. You know how do we develop Legwand Marcantonio at the Harlem house in one column. The kind. That educated people. Bring you a Caucasian and B to make it what the man was talking about Legwand with quality. And you got to cite LaGuardia can not forget Marc'antonio. To great politics in this country we have to be reckoned reckoning like ropes and you know the great guy. These two great guys that stand out a great politician. They. Walk in LaGuardia. For right to people of no tomorrow. I think we have to remember what happened to Marc'antonio like a lot of politicians. Wonder. When we. Didn't get kind of rough. Making who's going to pay the bill for guanine buckled to a lot Marc'antonio went. To let the the LaGuardia and let a

demonstration or a hundred thousand people gonna come. Get one more. Thing Before. We separated. Two of them was taxing the rich. Frank right. Right. Let me just say this. You may not mention it this evening. Now you know. There are Museum movies. I think you people understand tenements left hand corner meaning you put a quarter in and one to. Use it up. What I like to have I have court in the house. And then you have the the. Tower the cement sack. Everybody. But you. We all made our own bread but we took the. Flour sacks. Made the dresses the coats. Pillowcases. The pants all went along and that's how they dress from the flour sack. And same thing over here. And then we show you. My father was to run across. And just let me live. Three eight people to feed him. I still don't know how we got that but we all got there. But then I have like

the light of life. Over here and the end I have remembered my father Joe to pull back and died broke. Now what I'm talking about Joe I love my father like anyone else. We're all in trouble. We never made it. They run the crap game. These guys. The taxes are low with we're playing all the time and will always look at the end of a lifetime. And this is what's going on for a long long time. I think the consciousness of people. An American guy. Is huge. And don't know exactly how low he runs the city. You want to just press you on it anyway and he comes out broke all the time. Hey man the the basketball just like that. Got stuck. They don't know holes and that's all the time. I'll. Always hope they got the game all fixed up. They make us play and they take the money away. And that's. What it's all about. And we don't have a consciousness that we had we lost. We became consumed with things. And was so consumed with think the Polish cars. With pitch cause we had my car when he would talk about what I call the most beautiful one.

No no no no no. God took my God. Cards are important. Here's a guy that I can't because I got left top of to be an idiot. But this consumption what they did with the people. Some believable. I want to play a game. Stand to post as well. This is the old neighborhood. You know this was the the wonderful the roaring 20s and 30s. Is beautiful but also the corruption of that period frankly you the gangsters. All playing baseball. It's sunny. I have worked with my father. And he could practice hitting the goal of the game of baseball. But that period had. Try call. Up. I was. Making a final five out of 10. What are you doing. Get this get that. There's a constant. Gangsta rhythm talk that the protests picked up on everything was what's in it for me. What can it be. What's in it for me. What to do. And then that's all do and I'm

I'm looking at them. I remember by the way when I was working on that truck with my father in the 30s. I read record time and time again on the news. And I would to suck the stock market came about. And I told you my phone was my what you do in this book was going to get working. But did so and I used to watch and observe the kids in. And see all the kids shooting crap and you got to think that having a working class. Going out of my pocket you know going forward. He didn't want to fool with either. Of them. You know. So the working class was corrupted. To some degree are still grappling. I think if we read the gum you know we were doing a painting. I. Get that statement. I feel. One of the leading. Candidates. Who don't give a god damn about this. Man. We've got so many wonderful words. I don't need. What's. The what's. The new gangster movie. White guy. You know that got me going. You know. OK.

OK. This is good. We're called Best in Show city since few weeks ago. This page is strictly by hunger and. It took me six months to a night and day 50 years living in the city. There isn't a block and I don't walk or city. I was on welfare. Only if I walk I walk I walk or look my job when I'm not. Crash came boy the next area where. People didn't know what happened to them and then later around we'll talk about what happened to them. It would get left. Know. What Council. That work with the alliance. And the Communist Party got on a got thing and did something. Nobody asked them. They talked about what they. Did. This was that they put the fear of going back. But this is what I got out of and if you look at it. In a sense. I think that a painter like a musician. You have to be poetic. You have no poetry. You can't fake you can't Janjic head no nothing. And this painting. It to me when I when I paint it it's an exciting thing.

You know. I'm. A sucker. These are the. Bionic kissed the Irishman. The attic his protesting the capital system. But union square by the way Union Square was the. Apoc of all the. Radicals of America came in to make that pitch. So block everybody was trying to block his philosophy. And it was a place where he got a hundred thousand people marching. In mock. City hall in front of the prisons. And then you know with the power structure that they came to park their cubicles out of it so he couldn't get a whole hundred thousand people in it. So you go you'll see like in Mexico you can't you can't write the streets. It's about what we want to make where I take make those streets. That's you know these guys the barber shop built because guys I'm always up there. Every shop guy. We got him. And then they chopped us. But anyway this was the whole bit.

Of the you know the way how people. And. We come we run or what. We know we kind. We're doing. We're going to move move on. After that. We're here. In the. Machine shop. Well just show you what the CIO did. The board talked to people in it. And then the machine shop for the first time we got a woman. We had Africans we got all kinds of people. And this would have been for the CIO. It was as qualitatively as the civil rights movement. And what came. Back. You know. And we were able to do tremendous things in that period. Huey was an unusual Union. Do you think that's that's important. Not all of us with what happened to us which we're going to have a minute. We were doing what the electrical workers union by the way. Much different than the other unions and we have to recognize it. You unite all

types of people. Or culture or religion and woman. Movement. Organizes. Unheard of in America all of a sudden you go with the officers and take no more than two wage earners. Pretty. Diva. I. This you. Know. This machine shop I knew again the code I got from Pittsburgh I got in money. When there was a split of the CIO. And it was split to destroyed a movement you know they're interesting when you read about what's going on in Africa that 30 million dollars they chip in and how they divide and conquer. You probably you know get that same thing what happened. They divide the labor move in America. And they poured money into a guy who we had a lottery a CIO. All right. OK.

OK. Peter the guy hung out on a. These are the guys that like LaGuardia called Cowboys. They watch the guy. Taking a graft and corruption of that period. Up in the 20s. And 30s. What the police department of brutality the police about was something else. And you know they really repeated you know that job on people but it was like why. That. I can make it about like why. I don't think like what it was just an action where he's coming from. I think that he. His strength. Came from the labor unions like Roosevelt's from came from labor unions. That we in the shops. Gave it to jazz that was needed. And they were able to do it a job and had to be done. This is in the same corner guys in. Amsterdam. I've shown you. The lights go higher and get up. And go there.

Well this is the big thing 40 by 90 may day. And I like a lot of. Kids in America. My world of tomorrow is socialism. And I love that. And I got up like thousands of Americans went to May day we went to the parades. First thought of them last year with the box. How. Many of those didn't go when they come we can go. To the internet and word the word and say hello we're here. And also at that time and a to the CEO to forward a union it will march in a parade. All right. And the world of socialism you know. That's your group and I got a slogan enjoy. All different groups got together. As. Sidney Holdman. And quill Mooney because getting together.

But that period. I'll tell you what it's like coming to the city over here. Young kids we young and with a little big will get up in the morning. Oh my god what did the jejune. Changed the World around like. Civil rights a. Wonderful period in history. He'll come again. We'll talk. We'll get to. You. That's what I think it's all about dancing around here. Well this is a painting. A mock. At LaGuardia. LaGuardia. And walking Tony out of court I call it a lucky corner. And the last 90 campaign. Mark and with water in it they want they smoke. In the 1920s. The last speaker that spoke about. LaGuardia. Telling LaGuardia was mocking tone. He worked more. He came out of the box office. He fought. For. Housing in 1920 with all the demonstrations. So watch them come out of anywhere. Interesting. Bob Markham

when he died. At his funeral. The bulk of people. Were Spanish and black. The American people he came out of world you. Expect. It kind of came with Americans. And they didn't want Marcantonio. Didn't want to be. With the Black Widow and then became very very nationalistic. This is a public housing that was very early in the war. You talked about the guy talking about WPA. Player right. Now. This is a beautiful remark. You. Say baseball is a dream for Kurt and all your pain. Well. I. Explaining.

That you're pregnant. Henry we're talking about baseball. I know how baseball gets into people got into everybody and but he didn't have to read the newspaper. He got to play baseball and a team game got it. And suddenly the old film took Boston the alley between baseball and baseball like the religion. Exactly. I think the thing about baseball. Kids playing together. Kind of a democratic game. I like first second third and our red plate together I think that's the thing. And the Harmy getting together. But one other thing about baseball and the big cities. Especially New York. You're going to country the Bronx. That's. 20 minutes away from Manhattan. You want to go out and one of them but the tree was there any time you are going to be like somebody made a ballpark out of it. Kids got to got a couple rock cleaned up the game the owner. And I. By the way. Preedy Pretium played it like a drug junkie. So I was pretty good. Play the game. And that was it and then I became a radical. I've been a radical change in my life thinking that. The next.

Round. Well you know. This is a city. And people go to heaven you know. And it's with the sports of all times. We all went to hell. We all went to. Coney Island our family you know. And by the way all the people here I know my wife my friend there was not a painting that I had. I was not a painting of a figure. I haven't identified one. I can't find anything that I got out of my identity. All we had quite all over. My hand. That's it. No. I wasn't I wasn't that emotional but I can't we're going to get away. But I'm in a hurry. I have to be. Great.

They came in 1940. My father was a longshoreman. Picked. Up. Rags. You know. He was a teenager. Then it became an auction and I got on that. I'm like What am. I. Go ahead. My mother worked in the coding. She was a button hole maker. And she worked there about 25 years. My sister also worked in the shop. The big three was is that my. My mother says to her the speed of a tale a system like the Ford. To fortune that the auto workers you know they talking about the Ford what was maybe a good day. They talked about it. They came in they broke everything petion peace and peace. You made the call I make a coffee it made me die and it got Dansby 80 miles an hour. You know something she says and you're a lot of people that come. It takes a toll on your late arrival. You know at work you get by you make a lot of money. Eighty miles an hour. And you find

out when you're 30 years later. Right. You've got that you've got that you've to. The. I don't care what anybody says. Something is wrong. Get somebody free form and label. May