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lowe's lo these [Interviewer]: Um, I just want you to go back a minute, because you were talking about the fact that in some ways CORE wasn't in the deep South; you know CORE didn't exist in the deep South. And talk to me a little about- And so that in some ways you didn't know what to expect because you wern't as familiar with the very deep, deep South. [Rich]: Well that's true. Uh, we didn't know what to expect because we weren't there day-in and day-out. Um, but on but we not only- well we just didn't know. We also wanted not simply to involve people in action because you never going to involve most people. Uh, we wanted people to understand though what we were doing and to accept it internally; um, to say, "yes, that's right,"
because that will affect their friends, their neighbors, their children. it's important. [Interviewer]: One of the reasons why, why I ask that question is because it always seemed to me that one of the things that happened up until the fifties in the sixties is that the United States ya know, kinda had these two different systems and people in the North, ya know, ignored the South, you know and and and it just didn't- they didn't think about it. And one of the things that happen in the Civil Rights movment and the Freedom Rides was it made you you know it made everybody happy think about what was happening in the south in the deep south dr kay because that even in that for instance in new jersey korea demonstrations at palisades amusement park on
yelp ok now i'm going to say something like this losses in the north things were different not universally but in fact the schools were not segregated on all kinds of things were different so that the people maybe had different expectations as well as experience. the south these things have never been done before and that frightened some people, some people who would want to do them and it also frightened people who hated them
and would react in various ways from violence to passivity, but there was that a patron well that attitude to the beginning of the freedom thinking people want things that you guys did. So you talk about recruiting the first batch of Freedom Riders. Talk about the training you did. So what did you do? well we had three full days of training at the Friends Meeting House. community center I guess I was in a brownstone in Washington DC and most of the people who were on the Ride had participated in nonviolent direct action and some way and we wanted some experience so we've talked about what we were going to
do. We set up procedures like Kyle who was going to be saving the front who was going to be seated in the back and who would be the next stop who was there in case anyone was arrested would not be arrested this would be someone who's just observing but who could get back to the national office and let us know we went through role play where you know someone plays the part of a Rider and another person plays someone who hates those Riders and starts yelling at them, so that they know what's likely to happen and how they should react to it. That went on for three days and Jim Farmer, at the dinner meeting on the last day,
said, If you feel you can't take it, that you may not be able to stand the problem of the abuse that you're going to get you can walk out now. And some of us were afraid that they might lose a substantial number of the Freedom Riders but we did not. the training that you did. I don't need to ??? on this??? or the training was it was kind of based on the training that that that Jim Lawson has been doing down. Well it's based he wasn't the only one, but yes that was very similar. It was mixing nonviolent philosophy with direct action how
to do things but how to do them in a way which is most are more likely to win over the undecided. I'm not sure it's going to change the people who were some of the guns but the undecided we figured we could win. (Interviewer: If I could ask that again, just had another bus go by" if you could just say, you kind of said it went around, you know you know it was kind of based on the change that Lawson was doing) Yes, it was based on what Jim Lawson was doing and he was doing what others were as well and we tried to win for friends through our action not to antagonize it [inerviewe]Let me ask you again that kind of ??? I think
part of it was you know in the training that I had read about and seen was that how not, and part of it was nonviolent, and so so the idea is is that you don't react, you don't, you know ok ok it was based on the philosophy of nonviolent direct action which Jim Lawson was teaching in Nashville and others in other cities and it was designed to win friends and for not to hit back if we're hit we are to say that everyone is a human being worthy of understanding and support. [interviewer]How about [Interviewer] What was your role in the freedom rides? What did you do? [Mr. Rich] Well, first I handled the money ,
from buying the tickets and to make sure that everybody had enough to have to get through to the end. Then, I later on when people were arrested, that meant hiring lawyers and, in some cases, paying jail expenses. For instance, Mississippi has a very unusual law and if you don't pay $500 within forty days on disorderly conduct charges if you don't pay five hundred dollars. Well the judge said it but the Mississippi and then ultimately became five hundred dollars you had to pay five hundred dollars so that you could appeal
and take it to the Court so then I said to raise five hundred dollars for the people who were going in. For each one, and there were ultimately thousands of them or certainly many hundred. And there are other things that cost money you travel back and forth if you were in the lead??? One thing I love is the I saw the schedule for the freedom rights. You know ??you seethe schedule? The original schedule? No, where they in each town? Yeah, it kind of all look so orderly, you know what I mean, in, in I think it's like fourteen days. So talk about the ambitious schedule that you know it was going to go from DC to New Orleans in
fourteen days. And again not knowing we're talking about you know at this point it's still, let's say April, of 61 you know you don't know what's going to happen but it turns out. Talk about the schedule? Ok, the schedule was designed to go from Washington DC to New Orleans it was that is people would travel during the day and every night we'd stopped at some town and speak at some church or maybe two or three churches in different things that was in a very well organized now sometimes you'd stop and any given town even during the day
speak someplace, but there were about twenty five, thirty cities and that we stopped at and we goes three or four and Virginia and that was both on the coast and in the mountains that were some in North Carolina including Greensboro where the sittings begun the year before and where Georgy?? suddenly ACP??? they had a wonderful rally there and then into Georgia and then into Alabama of course and Anniston Alabama, Ohio??? Okay, I want to go back [inaudible] I want to go back. So did, did
I want to talk about you personally. Did you want to go on the Freedom Rides? And why didn't you go? well my job was basically to mind the store and the setup was that every day in the evening when they're finished for the night you know no more traveling they called in to the office or to my home depending, you know, that time that was and to report it is the field secretaries were in and out you know they were in various places and I did the PR, you know, trying to get there's some press, black press the Johnson publications was represented on the ride but was going to come to come out much later and and also well
I was there to send checks of needed and ultimately they were needed this, very much so and so that was my role and I knew that there was no getting it now I did occasionally traveled but that would be for two or three days. Alright, tell me the story about buying the tickets. You tell me a about getting the tickets Sure, buying the tickets. When we went down there, I had some core checks. Ok, you have to start over because I kind of don't know where you're going Oh when we went to the training session in Washington DC, I also brought some checks so that I can buy the tickets on the Trailways and Greyhound buses for the people involved, they wouldn't take them. They wouldn't take my checks. They said you are out of town. We don't know these checks are good or
not oh my god can stop for this. Well, I called someone I knew man named Charles Mason and he'd done good things for the court in the past and I said we need money, and he said I'll come down and he came down with his green Harvard book bag and he wrote out checks on his accountant in Washington DC banks and They took them and so the freedom ride went on, we weren't stopped by nonsense. So the freedom riders were, in a sense, almost stopped before they started that's right. They almost stopped before it started on foot wing awful well we had to solve a problem and we did ???I just need the short answer
for this. The schedule was really ambitious, right, just tell me this, I don't need what the schedule was, but it was an ambitious schedule, this whole thing was going to take thirteen of fourteen days get New Orleans. That was it. Yeah, our schedule was ambitious we were starting in Washington we're going through six or seven states and then we were ending up in New Orleans in two weeks. Didn't turn out that way. No, not at all. It did not turn out that way and it took a lot longer for many people in this the result ??? What you say one of the things that they, was your sign and was for them to, they would call in every night and talk to you. Right? That was one of that Yeah, at the end of the day every day
someone from the freedom ride group would call end of the office and talked to me and let know what's happening and what had to be done to support the ride. Do you remember? Let me just go back. Did you dDid you notify the justice department department about the rides? Oh yes, we notified the justice department about the ride and the couple of and other people like Rory Wilkens, Whitney Young, they were notified. So that RFK, Bobby Kennedy knew about the rides? He knew about, Bobby Kennedy knew about the rides. I'm not sure he really understood what we were saying because he didn't sing very well
informed later but he was informed and the ultimately he did good things but it took a lot of pressure, to get it What was the FBI like? I remember that, one of you said that the 'FBI were bunch of bastards'. What did you mean? What was the FBI like, like? Well. well the FBI was run by a guy ???? Hoover and he was not our friend basically that's it. Now,we we did sometimes they would call us sometimes we would call them they would be aware, of something but
mostly we dealt with the justice department, rather than with the FBI Why? Well, we thought we'd get further the FBI, we did not look upon this committed and the justice department was I'd say the split in a certain sense, each individual member was an individual human being and they don't all agree but they they were still more committed than FBI to our cause, by far. You describe them 'a bunch of busters' What did you mean, the FBI. Well, they weren't committed, they. I think, I think [inaudible] and the what what's happened is, you know people don't, nowadays understand what the FBI
was back then. You know, so there's a show, you know, a show on tv that FBI, you know. You know you think the FBI is some kind of great thing, but the FBI was not, the FBI wasn't even neutral. FBI is oppositional the FBI you know, had photographers who would. Be looking in these organizations who didn't report what was going on. The FBI was bad news. So I just want to get you know. People are looking at it why didn't FBI protect them? What was FBI look like? The FBI, was on the other side. They did not feel that it was their function to protect us and what they did was observe, they had cameras, they did things like that but the, very frequently that's stuff was being used against us, or was potential to be used against us rather than for us. That's the way we felt about it
and. They play that. The FBI didn't protect. The FBI did not protect us now ultimately toward the end, the FBI went, not the FBI the justice department would insist on certain things and people would be assigned to a particular areas to see that the police didn't do things that they should have done but, the FBI was not our friend. Thank you. Um, what about um you know, um JFK Kennedy was, was thought of, you know he's come down as this kind of great man, I guess in some ways he was but at least at the very beginning, you know he was Kennedy Kennedy had said that with the stroke
of the pen, we can change this system of desegregation in the South that was in his campaign that's what he said but that's not what he did I talked to one of his staff members, senior staff member, Harris Wofford, who later became a senator from Pennsylvania and I complained about this cause I knew him. Wofford, and he was a good person and he said look the other side is putting pressure on him they're going to, and if you want change, you gotta put pressure on him. Then he's more likely to do what he thinks is right rather than what he thinks is expedient. And we started putting pressure on him and certainly in this, the freedom rides were a form of pressure, because one difference; the freedom rides were in the age of television
up until about that time it was daily and weekly newspapers but they're worth was no television and made a big difference the world saw what was happening to good people and they didn't like, when it was on newspapers, they didn't read it. Um [inaudible] Um, should I get him just to say segregration? First thing [inaudible] No. We can do both. Okay, um, what What, what, what was he talking about, [inaudible] Oh yeah, okay. Yeah I'm going to ask you about about Kennedy again. Because I think you said, you said, Kennedy said in one stroke we can change the system of desegregation, rather than, I think what you meant was change the system of segregation. So talk about the Kennedy's, talk about Kennedy's statement, and it seems very naïve
??? When Kennedy was campaigning for the presidency he said that we could end segregation with a stroke of the pen when he was elected it didn't go that quickly at all and I complained to Harris Wofford, who was one of his senior staff people, and I said where is the stroke of the pen? And he said look, the other side is putting a lot of pressure on him. If you want him to do those things that you want. You gotta put pressure on him because he's meeting pressure from your opponents and so we started putting pressure on him and from certain sense the freedom rides were put pressure What kind of pressure could put on Kennedy from other side? What did you mean?
people say we don't want this done. People would, they'd get the senators, who would on key committees who would say ah ah ah if you do that i'm going to find ways to make this that you want, less possible. Okay let me cut, because that's kind of. Okay, yeah. We on to next week, we on some tape now. Okay. Alright let's. This was rehearsal. I'm just joking, it looked like he was gonna get up and run. Marvin where did you go? so so so, we talked a bit about what CORE expected, what happened? I want you to be honest with me now, okay, think about it. what did you what did CORE
want to happen? wanted this situation to become important for the American public. They wanted people to realize that discrimination existed in travel and in restaurants and seating arrangements that was a violation of the constitution and that nothing was being done about it and we wanted people to start doing things about it. Um, and ultimately the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was past few years afterwards but it took a few years for the first to alert people to the discrimination and second to suggest that people would not stop fighting until it was
ended, and therefore more and more people switch sides, and worked to end it Now I hear you, alright, okay, I hear you, you know, but that's kind of what you wanted. That's what we wanted. But that's what you wanted outcome to be. You know, you know, do you know what I'm saying? But on the ground, right, you know what I'm saying on the ground for, for, for these people who are on the bus. You know what I'm saying. Now I'm on the bus. I'm sitting on the bus going down to the south. What did you ???? I mean or did you not think about that? Like okay best case scenario, what do we want to happen. Well we certainly didn't want people to be beaten. We didn't want, but we didn't know that might happen. Um, we Jim Farmer, the night before they
left, said there is the possibility of real violence and anyone who feels they can stand up to it should leave now certainly should not go on the thing. We knew that there was the possibility of violence we didn't want it. But we were willing to accept it. because we have to change
Series
American Experience
Episode
Freedom Riders
Raw Footage
Interview with Marvin Rich, 2 of 3
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WGBH (Boston, Massachusetts)
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cpb-aacip/15-vq2s46j974
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Description
Description
Marvin Rich helped to organize a local chapter of CORE at Washington University in St. Louis. He went on to become CORE's national director of Community Relations in New York and held that position during the Freedom Rides.
Topics
History
Race and Ethnicity
Subjects
American history, African Americans, civil rights, racism, segregation, activism, students
Rights
(c) 2011-2017 WGBH Educational Foundation
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Moving Image
Duration
00:29:37
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Duration: 0:29:33

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Duration: 00:29:37
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Citations
Chicago: “American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Marvin Rich, 2 of 3,” WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 29, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-vq2s46j974.
MLA: “American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Marvin Rich, 2 of 3.” WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 29, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-vq2s46j974>.
APA: American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Marvin Rich, 2 of 3. Boston, MA: WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-vq2s46j974