American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Ken Love, 1 of 1

[host]: I guess, First question might as well get to it Ken. Where were you that day, uh that, um that Saturday.. I was uh, I was I was home on leave. 4 day leave. I was in the Marine Corps. Corps at the time. Stationed at Cherry Point North Carolina. I'd come home on a 4 day pay. Pass. And uh a friend of mine and myself were ah out driving and this was a topic of conversation on the radio and the tv and um probably in the papers too. And so uh we drove down to Montgomery to see what was going on. We ended up parking on a side side street. The court street which is where the bus station is at. And we walked back down to the general area. I don't know whether there were 200 people there or 2,000. There were a lot of folks. And you couldn't couldn't get, I- we probably didn't get any closer than seventy five yards or a hundred yards to the bus station. And i can remember uh

some mounted troops there I believe ah, i do not actually see any physical violence. I hear a lot of of shouting. Uh either I got the- if there was I got there before or before it happened or left you know before it happened um that's my basic memories and their daw- their fading, you know they're, they're old memories So you, so you, kinda park your car, you walk up. You see this crowd of people and the bus hasn't arrive there I guess cause there's still a crowd [host]: crowds [Ken]: I believe the bus had arrived, it had arrived so there was some milling around around there too. Or either it came right shortly after we, my friend and I walked down, down the street. So thats what I remember [host]: What was the mood? mood of the crowd? [different speaker inaudible] It was um,

probably, the mood of the white community as i recall at the time was that we have been following when I say we, I-the folks in my family around that. Had been following the freedom riders from Anaston on down and there was a resentment. not so much toward black people as toward the the uh outside agitators uh from north. As we, as we as we uh call 'em back then so it was a it was a resentful crowned that uh, uh these outsiders coming in to tell us how to do. Now maybe we needed tellin' how to act but you know thats thats the way it was When you say there was a resentment you know from, from

[different speaker inaudible] [host]: We're fine Um, there was a special, my understanding is there was a there was a special resentment for the white freedom riders. Talk about that [Ken]: Yes, yeah Yes, yes. Well its just like you say say it. Um or- I mean that is true, that was problem of thought that someone from outside your community would come in and tell you how to run your business or to, to live your life so to speak, so there really wasn't ?havin it there? ?its your life? [host]: um ah resent the white freedom riders more well that's uh, not an easy question to answer and i don't have an answer just jumped off my lips at at this, at this time you know when you're raised

in a culture that says one thing uh Im a white person, there were black people. I've been around around them you know all my life. Ah But when you're raised to believe that what you're being told or taught is the truth then you believe. Doesn't make it true but you believe it. Now you have to figure out for yourself at ah, you know you know at some subsequent time our someone has to show you That your beliefs were false. Im not making any sense (laughs). [host]: No you are and I think you know I I I really um, I really thankful, you know, for for your honesty and that you know and that you people we've talked to in the last 4 or 5 days have been

just incredibly honest about you know what their feelings were back then what they were raised to feel him and and you know we understand that that that so many- we could pause for a sec, that, um thats kind of you know what [different speaker]: yes what what I always wondered is is how this- how did it make sense? Well, it its because ehh, you know its because it what you were taught taught to believe and and what you were taught was um not true, uh I believe in the correspondents theory of truth which says that truth is whatever reality is. I don't believe in relativism. Uh so so I was confusion myself personally and my confusion continued on into the service uh, about my values and so forth

because I saw discrimination there uh, not so much against the black people in my platoon, but against the jewish people in my platoon and I could not understand that because and I was on of the few southern boys in a 80 man platoon. Most of which were were from Brooklyn (laughs) so uh, I never knew there were so many Catholics in my life but my my my point was this that the jewish community back in montgomery back in those day and even to today is uh is a higher, on a higher economic and uh social plane so to speak But I saw right the opposite when I saw some of the Jewish jewish kids that were taken out of the uh, from the Bronx and places like that up New York and the drill instructors some of them, not all of them, some of them were particularly

hard. And I I got to see discrimination for what it really was. Uh you know its alive [Ken]: I probably didn't answer what you.. (laughs) [host]: Thats ok, that ok, Its really its really important for us to try to get at get at um you know what people what people were seeing, what people were feeling so that we can all understand. Cuz I think where we're coming to a point where you know this is going to be 50 years ago ago. And we're gonna come to a point soon where you know the people who around and the people who can talk about it will be gone. And I think its really important you know know um to- for us to talk about it so we remember. So you said that you're confused about race. So we're back there in '61tell me about that- [Ken]: Confused about values.. Uh why why... [host]: what do you mean? There was a uh basic sense of unfairness. Why black people were treated differently from white. Even though we- even though

I'd been brought up to believe that that was a proper way, uh there's moral law written on our hearts by God and uh and we recognize that and uh pay attention to it we can see the fallacy of some our beliefs. Racist kinda beliefs, other kinda beliefs Uh at that day, you know, that the bus was coming in what- before you went down there, you know, you knew, um or you must have known kind of the mood in white community. What was the mood like? And what did you think was gonna happen? Well uh, probably, ahh probably a lot of- a lot of the white people did not not go down there. Wasn't like it was 40-50,000 people from Montgomery down there. It would be be people who, I'm thinking well you had the law enforcement but you had an element that uh truly were hate-mongers uh

And I don't know who they were but I know they existed. citizens' councils, possies, all that sort of thing. And then you had a bunch of kids kids and people who were just goin to see what was going on. I put myself in that group. Wasn't right but thats, thats the group I was in. [host]: um so the group who just kinda wanted to- you knew it was going to be some action. And as a teenager or young a young [inaudible] [Ken]:19 [host]: what you were looking for. [Ken]: Yeah As a matter of fact uh we stayed about 30 minutes and decided that we need to get out of there. Uh And my sister had come by my car. I don't know how she found it. But it was parked on the side of the road. She said I can't leave you here. So So it wasn't like all- even though

even though a a a a lot of white people held that resentment against agitators they were not taken to the streets. [host]: Yeah mean I think that, we could stop for a sec My judgement is. Now the exact percentage you put out tha- I think those sound reasonable uh I would says that's a fairly accurate assessment I think and I think one of the things and I'd love for you to talk about this. one of the things that the freedom riders were trying to do was to make this the 80-85% of the population think about what was going on. You know [Ken]: Yeah, yeah you know because uh, per- person after person have told us- white person after person told us in the last week, you know we never even thought about it. it wasn't some-

something that you know we weren't I mean we just, we just didn't even think about it. It was just the way it was. What do you think about that? [Ken]: I I uh- that's true th- that's true. Uh It was, it It was a peculiar institution someone had said. Uh and we were taught in School that um, that this is the way that it should be I was, I was taught in school. Not on from a cultural I'm mean not only from a you know know from my home life and so forth but also in school. Uh and those are are, hard Ideals to come out of now ?about? that you are in fact holding some

some racist attitudes. Even though they- even thought you might have them suppressed. They're there. Uh Some people still have 'em. Im sure You know that. uh There's been a lot of progress made. And I know its uh. Its been hard progress. I understand that.... OK. [host]: We gonna try to if you can stay back, back there because that's what we want to talk about. And I think what were gonna get to, the film kinda leads up to hopefully, this kinda hopeful ending and that there is progress. [Ken]: ok, yeah, yeah progress, and that there is [inaudible]. But you said um, I want you to talk a little bit about you said you were taught this in school. [host]: what what do you mean? [Ken]: Well I mean when the civil war was taught in school uh the plantations were laid out and so um.

Um society where the black- the slaves were looked after in a kindly manner. Um that sort of soothed I guess some people's feelings. And I don't remember exactly how the textbooks were written back then. I didn't go to school much my last year (laughs) But uh I was uh, you know I didn't, I-uh-I did not take part in in in any of that. Uh of course I was in the service. I left the next day going back North Carolina. An' I would go there And see the differences in the way things were in the service and the way they were here- and it was confusing for uh, a 19-20 year old person

person. [host]: One of the things that that is confusing to me is that.You know you had these societies that um live very close together in some way [Ken]: very close [host]: you know very close, but yet um you know all of sudden you know [inaudible] and and you had- and then people are beating people with pipes and baseball bats and you know, ho-how does that kinda all fit [Ken]: Yes, yes fit into the same box? [Ken]: well it doesn't. Thats thats wh- causes more confusion and uh, or at least it did to me and I- you couldn't reconcile those things In your mind. So you either accepted accepted them. What you had been taught to believe as

being absolute fact. Or you start questioning it. And And uh, look for the truth. Thats later on I realize you want talk about the bus. [host]: Now I want you to be back back there I've told you all I know about the bus (laughs) [host]: When you, w-w-when you went down there that day. Did you, you know so, did you go down there wi-with some anger? Uh about these agitators coming Not really anger I went down there more with, with a a-uh, well I wasn't happy about it. Uh, I wouldn't say I was happy about it but it was, it was uh, uh more they had just come thru I believe Anniston the day or 2 before maybe Birmingham and so the trial had been well documented down through the whole, the whole trip uhh (sighs) why would the why would

we resent the the white agitators out of the north more more than than we did in the black folks. And I-w- thats a hard one to answer. Answer, Im gonna guess that I'd be like somebody comin that was one of your peers coming to tell you your perceived peers comin to tell you how to act. uh that the closet I can come to to seeing how why that railing would be more against them then it would against someone who's actually suffer. [host]: Yeah, I I was really surprised at that that that that you know that uh some of the white freedom riders were singled out and kind of got the worse beatings you know? you know but, you know, i mean is that something that would surprise you?

No, well just because I said they resented more. They were resented more [host]: Um I'm not gonna ask you too much more but but you know my question is not going to be there so you gotta give me the kinda whole. [Ken]: Yeah whole sentence here and. So if I asked you why were the white why would the white riders be singled out and and and and and there'd be more hate and resentment for them? Why? [Ken]: It was was, in my judgment, it was because the the white groups, or the white people people in the south uh looked upon that as as um them turning away from their own kind so to speak. and that's as close as I can come to it. And there was more

anger towards those than that would've been towards the black people. So when you went down there tell me again this last one, wh-what were you feeling? You wanted to see the agitators? Wanted to see the action? I wanted to see what was going on and uh I, I don't even know that we planned to go down there down there. we probably uh were out riding around heard it on the radio and said hey that that would be s- wasn't a whole to do in Montgomery back then. That probably they were there was some action goin on I did not plan the night before to go down there so it was on a whim. uh you know you know I shouldn't have do it. I'm sorry I did but the truth's the truth

[host]: Why are you sorry you did? [Ken]: Because it was not right I was not right, uh my sister summed it up pretty well. What are you doing out here? That note she left on my car on my car. (laughs) [host]: is there something I'm not asking you that I should ask you think? [Ken]: I don't I don't know you, I-I know you wanna stay aroun-round the bus and uh I'm trying to uh i really left the next day going back to Cherry Point, either the next day or Monday. uh so whatever I heard about it after then was strictly b-