American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Clayborne Carson, 1 of 4

[Interviewer]: -and how, uh, its- how it led to the Freedom Rides. Its significance to the Freedom Rides. [Clayborne Carson]: Well, uh, first of all that, that decision opened up the, um, that whole question of moving around freely in the United States and being able to, to do that without being subject to Jim Crow laws, and that was, uh, crucially important. I think for African Americans just the ability to move about the United States was a large part of freedom. That's how we, um, most of us gained a, a measure of freedom was to be able to move out of the south to the north, to move from the rural areas to the cities, and to um, to be able to do that without, um, being subject to degrading laws. That was, that was very important. So it was, it was a break through. [Interviewer]: Um, I'm going to ask you that again and you're going to have to, uh, excuse me if I ask you things, the same things a couple times. [Carson]: Okay sure. [Interviewer] But I want you to say, I mean, on the Irene Morgan decision and, and this time talk a little bit about the fact that, [Interviewer]: that basically the Freedom Rides were based on the Irene Morgan decision and the Irene Morgan decision said, 'Okay, um, this is just, you can do this but, but you really couldn't.' So talk about how the Irene Morgan decision lead to the, uh, Freedom Rides [Carson]: Yeah, right right.

[Carson]: Well the Irene Morgan decision, uh, meant that the, the law was on the side of those who wanted to move about, um, without being subject to Jim Crow laws. Uh, but, enforcement of the law was another thing that, um, a lot of things were on the books, ah, but um, it, it took people willing to test them to, uh, be able to make this into a reality. Uh, so that took a long time after, um, Irene Morgan took the first step but it took, uh, more than a decade to uh, to actually make that into something that was enforceable throughout the United States. [Interviewer]: Um, I want to talk abou-, about um, let's cut for a sec. [Producer]: Yes! [Interviewer]: I just want to ask you about the [Producer]: Speak. [Interviewer]: Um, okay, so where were we in, in 1961? [Carson]: I, I think in 1961

the, the situation was this, that um, we had a, a strong feeling among African Americans about the question of, of moving about an interstate commerce because at least that area had been opened up by the supreme court decision on the Morgan case. Um, but enforcement of that, um had been, um, really delayed and, and the federal government, uh needed to be pressured into, into making that a reality. So um, so I think, um, as we move from the 50's to the 60's what we're seeing is that a, a large expectation of change, uh, but I think the reality for many young people is, 'Why is it taking so long? Why is it taking so long to get the federal government to, uh, to enforce these decisions? Why is it taking so long to get the federal government to come in on the side of the civil rights struggle?' [Interviewer]: Let's cut. [Producer]: Yes. [Interviewer]: I'm trying to wait for this. [Producer]: Speak.

[Interviewer]: Um, so I guess that, the, the, the, the kind of question they would be talking about the point of the civil rights movement was that at, at sixty-one the beginning of, of, of this, what we came to know as the civil rights movement. [Carson]: I think there was a feeling that change was on the horizon and was just a question of how fast was that change going to happen and, and what was it going to take to um, to push it forward. I mean when you think about it, you know after World War II uh, you have the soldiers coming back, um, people like my father who came back with an expectation that things were going to be better. There had been the double V campaign, uh, during the war. Uh, there was the changes that were going on in the world with the, um, the independence movements in Africa and Asia. Uh, you have all these indications that change is, is coming. Um but uh, I think for, especially for young people the question was, 'Why is it taking so long? Why, why are we still waiting for change, um, that should have happened years ago?' And, and also you have African Americans are becoming much more mobile, more people have been outside of the south. So they they know that things are not always um, the same, um

especially when you get beyond beyond the south. So uh, so this this mobility was was creating a new expectation of change. So many of the people who would be involved in the struggles of those of the late 1950's and, and 60's had, uh, traveled in the north and had seen that, that uh, that, uh, conditions were different there and they came back, uh, with a new sense of frustration about why are things are still the same in the south. [Interviewer]: Had the civil rights movement, as we know it, began already? [Carson]: Uh, the, you know it I, I prefer to call it the African American Freedom Struggle rather than the civil rights movement because it was really, uh, a wide variety of things that were changing. It wasn't just the demand for civil rights legislation I, I, I think that um, you know, the push for better jobs, for better housing, uh to, to be able to uh, get access to things that uh, were, were closed off before. You know there's this sense that there were all these

barriers to African American advancement and that we had to overcome those barriers. I, you know, when I was growing up there was always this, this sense of you, you'd pick up the paper and there would always be the first negro to do this or the first negro to make break this barrier. So there, there was that sense that, that barriers were being overcome and uh, and I think that build, built up an expectation that there would be even more change on the 1960's. [Interviewer]: Um, but, but they're, I'm just trying to get the idea that, that, that at this point, you know, whether we call it the, the, the struggle or we call it the movement that, that, that there were, at this point it seems like there were these isolated events that weren't connected as much as they became later on. You know the events weren't connected the organizations weren't connected. Um, do, do you know what I mean? That, that, that this thing that we now know had, didn't yet exist. ?inaudible? [Carson]: I, I, I think the way I would describe it is that,

that there was a sense that we knew where we were heading. We wanted to, uh, achieve advancement but the question is, 'What was the vehicle that was gonna get us there?' Uh, that I think we were still looking around for what, what kinds of strategy, what kinds of tactics would work. And of course, uh, at the beginning of the nineteen sixties, because of the cold war, basically you had the NAACP at the national level having the field to itself and their emphasis was on lobbying and litigation. The problem with that for most African Americans was that it left out popular agitation. You know, that had been identified as a left wing kind of, of, of approach. So I think with, uh, the Montgomery Bus Boycott that kind of reawakened that sense that, that you, you gotta mobilize the masses of African Americans in order to, to push this change and make it go faster. Uh, you know, yes what Thurgood Marshall was doing was very important and we all applauded the Brown decision but it was going to take

many many people to actually implement that decision. And uh, so that's what we were talking about in, in the 1950's was who was going to do that? Was it going to be and, and often it turned out that it was young people um, Barbara Johns, you know, in, in Virginia who uh, led a walkout of students against segregated schools. It was the Little Rock 9. It was, it was young people who, uh, even in Montgomery, it was the young people who were first even before Rosa Parks to refuse to accept um, seg-, segregated seating on the bus and, and were arrested for that. So you see this, this uh, desire for change and I think people were trying to find what is, what is going to be a tactic that's going to actually work. And, and I think that, that was really discovered with the sit-ins, you know, because that was a tactic that young people could, could um, could do just as well as anyone

else. And it, it proved to be quite effective. It proved to be quite popular because it was, it was so easy, uh, for people to do and as long as you accepted the reality that you're going to go to jail and got over the fear of going to jail you could push change along. So I think that, that demand for freedom now that it, it, it's not later, not uh, um at a gradual pace but freedom now. Uh, that was, that was the demand. [Interviewer]: I think that, that one of the things though that, that, that at this point a- a- as the Freedom Rides start is that, um, you know, it's not looked at as this kind of universally great thing. This is, this is a tactic that, that's accepting. It was, it was a risk, and there, and there were other, ya know, organizations that, that, that, that, you know, didn't look favorably on it. I guess, somehow that's a question. Talk about, talk about that. [Carson]: well I, I, I think the Freedom Ride was uh, was a brilliant tactic um, because the movement had kind of reached a, a turning point. You know, that there are

number of crucial turning points in the long history of the freedom struggle of African Americans and, and I, and I think the early 60's was one of those turning points when it was uh, a question of here you had Montgomery where you have a black community mobilized for 381 days achieve a victory but the momentum from a Montgomery seemed to have been lost, uh, by the late 1950's. It was just not clear how d-, how do you move from that to something else and I, and it took um, young people to discover that uh, you know, you needed to have a tactic that, that uh, mobilized new segments of the black community that hadn't been mobilized before and particularly the young and a tactic that um, would put the people um, supporting segregation on the defensive and uh, and I think the Freedom Ride was, was another one of those tactics because here you had the law on the

side of those people taking the Freedom Ride. You know, since the Morgan Decision, you'd had the supreme court saying that uh, African Americans should have the right to travel on interstate commerce without um, facing Jim Crow laws. But the federal government was not enforcing that so here was a situation where the people could come on the ride and force the federal government to intervene on their behalf and uh, despite the fact that the Kennedy administration wanted to do everything other than get involved in desegregation in the south. Um, this was something that, that put the pressure on them and uh, and what once I think young people figured out that they had the federal government on the defensive in terms of taking a stand as well as a tactic that, that really um, the south really didn't know how to handle. Uh, you know, what what do you do? Do you support mobs in, in uh, um,

attacking the Freedom Riders? You know well, you know that's possible but it gets you some terrible publicity not simply in the United States but abroad. So, so this was a, a really brilliant move. [Interviewer] Okay let's cut? [Producer] Yes. [Carson]: - wasn't in the black community at this point. [Interviewer]: No, I think you're right. That, you're definitely right about that. And, and I just think for us that's probably too much detail. [Laughter] [Carson]: Yeah, yeah, yeah right. [Interviewer]: We'd never get into it in, in, in, in this room but I think you're right. [Carson]: I'm a Freedom Rider but ya know. [Interviewer]: Um, okay, um. Let's roll, my, my, this, this is kind of what uh, uh, I, uh, taking, another little tac- I just want you to talk a little about the Kennedys, you know, um, like JFK and RFK. Um, we're talking about early on in, in the sixty, in the sixty, sixty-one. Because, you know, the Ken-, the Kennedys have become these great civil rights heroes but uh at the beginning of their administration where were the Kennedys on, on, on civil rights? [Carson]: I think ff John F Kennedy had had his way uh

civil rights would have stayed a back burner issue that um, th-that cause he was really concerned about was winning the cold war. Um, he was um, far more focused on on, international issues and perhaps on the broader issues of the American economy but not on civil rights that was a distraction and had been a distraction um, for every democratic president since Roosevelt. Since Roosevelt brought black people into the democratic coalition in 1936, every democratic president had faced a dilemma that the base of the democratic party was black votes in the north and segregation as white votes in the south and how do you pull these factions together well the only way you pull them together is to deemphasize the issue of civil rights that, that, that's a very destructive issue that is going to divide this essential coalition at the base of the, of the democratic party. Now

that's a, that's a problem that Truman faced, and that's a problem that John F Kennedy faced. Yeah, here he is a, a northern democrat who relies on the south for support of his, of his program and we're not just talking about the south as a region obviously we're talking about the white south because white people dominated uh, the political um, the political parties of the south, the democratic party was basically the only party in the south and it was a white political party. Uh, so all of the um, political power of the south was based on the fact that because it's a one party region, southern senators and representatives have extraordinary power in congress and no democratic president can get anywhere without their support.

[Interviewer] So um, just wanna try and follow up and, so, so, so, for for JFK and RFK, um, civil rights were something they wanted to kind of go away. Just, um, what did they want? [Carson]: Yeah [Interviewer]: If he could have his way civil rights would have, what would have happened? [Carson]: I think that uh, he understood that perhaps on the issue of voting rights there might be a way of, of getting a bill through like the um, you know, even Eisenhower had been able to get a civil rights bill through during the late 1950's uh, with democratic support because it focused on voting rights and there was, there was less emotion in that issue even though in the south we understood that ultimately that was the, the crucial issue and I think King understood that that was the crucial issue and he gives a speech calling uh, saying uh, give us the vote and we'll take care of the rest basically. Um, so voting rights was an issue that didn't generate the same kinds of emotions and it was

emotions that uh, Kennedy was afraid would divide the democratic party and and really make it impossible for the democratic party to remain the majority coalition. Uh, so I think that that was the, that was the crucial dilemma and, and until Johnson that dilemma wasn't really faced. [Interviewer]: Uh I just want to stay if we can when we can stay, stay right you know, in, in, in, in, in the time limit. So in, in, in, in early 61, wh-what do you think JFK and RFK would have thought about the Freedom Rides? [Carson]: I, I think that um, Kennedy made it very clear to the young people in ?inaudible? that the administration would support them um, to the extent that uh, they would focus on issues like voting rights now that became more clear after the freedom rides but uh, even before the freedom rides uh, Kennedy had, had to really made his agenda pretty evident that uh, the issue of desegregation was

something that should had, be handled very gradually and uh, and even the sit-ins were an embarrassment as um, Kennedy found out from the arrest of, of, of um, Martin Luther King in Atlanta which became a presidential issue and that he didn't even want to get involved in uh, in 1960 so in 1961 the last thing he wanted was another issue that, that brought desegregation to the fore and all the emotions associated with desegregation. [Producer]: Okay, that's good. That's okay. [Carson]: the house might've been even more so we just never know how that might have played itself out that. [Interviewer]: I've got to ask. [Producer]: Let's roll. [Interviewer]: Um okay, so talk about the I, I, I give, the freedom rides as being as being kind of its a its a radical, a radical move to go into the deep south. Um, yeah. [Carson]: Well I, I think it was um, the idea of the fr- of,

the idea of freedom rides was um, was radical I mean it, it was a test of something that everyone knew legally might be possible but i think every African American at that point knew that you might have legal laws on the books but when you get to the deep south it's another country and uh, particularly when you get to Alabama and Mississippi. You know I, I think for most of us growing up during that period uh, the last thing we wanted unless we lived in Alabama or Mississippi last thing we wanted to do was visit there because we had all heard the story of Emmett Till and what happened to him. So, so it was, it was a place that provoked fear and even, even among people who were in the, the struggle itself you know there was there was a sense that maybe we should focus on the upper south the urban south try to get um, more people registered to vote try to bring about some desegregation in places like uh, Nashville

or you know other places that were outside the deep south there weren't any sit-ins in 1960 and um, Mississippi you know this and there were very very few in Alabama so these were areas where uh, the the movement as it existed then had not really arrived in Mississippi had not really arrived in the rural areas of the deep south uh, so uh, so this was something new and we were um I, I think that the idea of going to Mississippi was going to be this was the ultimate test of whether these rights that are on the books with respect to interstate travel mean anything. [Interviewer]: One thing I, I just wanna try to do what I call bookkeeping here it is, is, is, is also just to give us sense. Cuz I think one of the things that can kind of fool you about the Freedom Rides, especially cuz of the way it ends with this massive protection it's just to give a sense that these were 12

13 people who were getting on public buses you know with no protection you know, you know no major national press do, do you know what I mean? [Carson]: Yeah, yeah. [Interviewer]:Can you just give an give an i- of, of, uh, uh uh, uh of of of the idea of what they were doing um that they were kind of going in alone. [Carson]: Well uh, the, the original group of freedom riders were not simply going it alone they knew that they were taking their lives in their own hands uh, that this was um, something that even ?inaudible? someone who believed in the idea of exercising um, your rights wherever you are in the United States knew that you were risking your life by doing that in in Alabama and Mississippi and they were and um, I think we know this and, and, and how it turned out but I think there is that expectation right at the beginning I mean most of them when they uh had that uh final dinner in in uh Washington DC before leaving on the ride they knew

that uh that this might be the last ride they would take and for some of them it came close to that. [Interviewer]: I think, think that that that also what and I just wanna get the idea that that that that part of the idea here is that you do it without protection, you know you just the law is on your side so you do it, do do you know? Well uh, you know I, I think that um, to to be quite blunt about this I mean the the ride wouldn't have worked if it had you know nothing had happened. I mean I, I think there was an expectation that there would be resistance and that you had to face that and I think most of the people on that first ride had a strong belief in the principles of nonviolence they would've that would've been a violation of the principle of non violence if you had come down with protection or you had required you know the police to be present in order to exercise your right because you would know that that's not really you haven't really made a

breakthrough because the next person and the next black person who'd try to use the restroom wouldn't have the protection so you had to do it without protection you had to come down and face whatever you were going to face because that was the only way of breaking open that barrier for everyone who would follow. [Interviewer]: I think I just got a little rumble on stuff I just want to ask you again. So so um Part of what you were doing I sup- again we had a little rumble there was, was was part of part of the thing you were doing was to do it without protection. [Carson]: right I, the, the idea was to prepare the way for everyone who would come later for for that solitary black person riding on a bus who would come into a terminal and be faced with segregated facilities and that person would not have any protection so the freedom riders in order to make the breakthrough they wanted to make they had to do it uh without

any kind of um armed protection they had to face whatever they were going to face and and suffer whatever they were going to suffer because that was necessary to to make that ultimate breakthrough. [Interviewer]: Great, because cut. [Producer]: Cut [Interviewer]: Um, what has always fas-fascinated me is that that you don't have this kind of national press along the rides that the white press isn't there. Why? [Carson]: Well I I think that after um, Montgomery the the movement really went through a, a quiet stage and until the sit-ins and the sit-ins were very dispersed and here is this uh, uh group core which it in 1961 is not really a well known civil rights group well certainly not as well known as the NAACP or or Martin Luther King in the SCLC um and uh so the freedom ride really was a a group that had you know chapters in the north but not really very much presence in the south

um making its first major foray into um this region of the country and uh you know I, I don't think the national press knew what to make of it you know that this was uh you know what what were they going to do uh uh get on the ride ride themselves uh or uh be in all the places where the riders were going to come you know I I think that the the kind of coverage that we see by the time of Birmingham later you know was just not present in the early 1960's that this is this is basically a minor story at the national level and it becomes a a national story only when the federal government really is put on the spot and that's what makes it a national story. [Interviewer]: Okay let's cut. That was great I want you just to to to- [Producer] Hold on. Speak. [Interviewer]: Okay go ahead. [Carson]: Well the, the national press when we when we think about the freedom rides there there were any prominent national reporters covering the civil rights beat you know that that is something that happens in

part because of the freedom rides that you have uh people who are often based in the southern bureaus of northern papers and um they only gradually begin to re- recognize that this is a great news story and this is one of the most important stories that is going on at that time um but that that's not true in the early 1960's because uh it it's it's not even drawing the attention of the federal government you know the Kennedy administration uh so the press is not going to move toward um extensive coverage of this until it really gets the attention of of the Kennedy administration. [Interviewer]: Okay lets uh [Producer]: ?inaudible? [Interviewer]: How's that? ?inaudible? Um, okay one, one, one more time there and I wan- I just want you to try to to try to stay there. We won't even flash forward about what's gonna happen that that cuz we don't know. At this point, let's cut for a second. [Producer]: Yes, uh speak. [Carson]: Uh, the national press was, was not really devoted to the

civil rights issue because uh this was an issue that they saw as very localized uh, the sit-ins had been you know in all these various communities but it had really had uh, not a national impact but at most a local impact so they, they saw the civil rights um, movement as, as this minor story um and they really didn't understand uh, how it was going to become a national story and the freedom rides were part of that, that story of how a local campaign became national because it got the attention of the federal government particularly of the Kennedys. [Interviewer]: Okay, one more time. I, I don't want you to tell me what happened at the end. [Carson]: I, I, I didn't think I did. [Interviewer]: Well you said it, the Freedom Rides is part of that story. [Carson]: Oh. [Interviewer]: Because it told, ya know, it got the, we don't know that the Kennedys are involved. [Carson]: Ah. [Interviewer]: We don't, you know what I mean? I just want, [Carson]: Okay, okay. [Interviewer]: we, we-, we- we're right back there [Carson]: Okay, okay, okay, I, I see. [Interviewer]: Kind of like ?inaudible? and they're getting on the bus that first day [Carson]: Okay [Interviewer]: and there's no white press. [Carson]: Right. [Interviewer]: Why? [Carson]: Ok- um,

[Carson]: the press wasn't interested because core was uh, a minor organization uh, it had um, chapters in the north but very few in the south uh, it had never really had very much impact in the south uh, there was no way of knowing that at the beginning of, of the freedom ride that this was going to be a, a national story uh, this was something that uh, you know, it, it, it seemed like a, a, uh relatively minor diversion from um, all the, you know, other parts of the civil rights movement uh, basically school segregation which was uh, the major story. [Interviewer]: so the white press wasn't interested? [Carson]: Um, i-, uh, not only was the white press not interested there were very few reporters who saw as a major part of their, of their job to cover uh, the race issue. Uh, the, the race issue as a whole was, it was not seen as uh, as uh, as a major uh, story to cover and certainly would make

your reputation, win you a pulitzer prize or anything like that. [Interviewer] Great, okay cut. Sorry to do that ?inaudible?