American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Raymond Arsenault, 5 of 5

[Interviewer] Because what happens is at the end of the film people want it to wrap up. of course whole thing to go to a lot of you so we're going to talk about the accomplishments, look-look at me, of the, uh, Freedom Rides. [Arsenault] Uh, well, one major significance of the Freedom Rides was its national character, and by national I mean that it-it was America, it was interracial, it was inter-regional, um, it was secular and religious, it brought together people of different political philosophies, uh, different strategies, some believed in nonviolence as a tactic or a strategy, others as an all-encompassing way of life, um, but there was a sense of-of unity an-and purpose, uh, that-that, uh, I'm not sure that the movement ever had before and may not have

had afterward. It was a shining moment that gave us a glimpse of the beloved community that Jim Lawson and Martin Luther King and others and John Lewis had-had-had talked about. [Interviewer] Mkay. I'm gonna ask just-just a couple quick follow-up things. Go. [Arsenault] Well John Patterson very angry after the siege. He felt he'd been used, he felt he'd been put into a corner, uh, forced to do something to, you know, federalize the National Guard, send them in, that uh- I sh- I shouldn't say that he d- he didn't federalize the guard, I'm sorry. Lemme, lemme- can I just start over? John Patterson was very angry after the siege, and he felt he'd been used, uh, he felt that he had- he had been put into a corner in an impossible political position. Now, he had been very shrewd and sly and had, uh, um, you know, tried to play the situation and he knew that, but, uh, he blamed the Kennedys, he blamed the outside agitators, um, he thought

that, uh, that-that this was something that was just going to- to blow up in everybody's face and-and he wasn't sure he could control it, uh, as clever a politician as-as he was, and, uh, and he was probably right in the sense that- that this- this had set out a, you know, a series of actions into motion that was- that was gonna be a- a- a changing experience for Alabama and for the south. There was no going back and, uh, I think, uh, he had- he had a sense of this, and, uh, that the southern way of life was not going to be the sou- the southern way of life anymore and it was a- it was a strategy that the- that the Freedom Riders had, uh, anticipated, that Jim Farmer when he said he wanted to put the- the movement on wheels and to take it into Alabama and Mississippi, and that, uh, he was gonna shake things up, that's exactly what he did and people like John Patterson, um, uh, didn't know how to handle it. [Interviewer] Okay, I'm sorry, 'cause we- [Arsenault] Too much? [Interviewer] I'm back at the siege, not at the end anymore. So I just want to ask you this, um, so- so, um, talk

about- just a little bit about the National Guard that gets- that gets federalized. [Arsenault] Not- not, you mean- [Interviewer] The Alabama National Guard, it's the Alabama National Guard that these are Alabama rednecks that-that as the Freedom Riders leave the church they turn their bayonets on the Freedom Riders and tell them to get back inside. So you know, you have- so I don't know how to start this, but, so- so the Alabama National Guard is federalized-- [Arsenault] It's a harrowing experience. [Interviewer] And they kind of take over but it's not this clear-cut recipe, talk about that. [Arsenault] At the end of the siege it's a- it's a kind of liberation but not the liberation I think that the Freedom Riders had- had hoped for, because it's the- it's the Alabama National Guard, it's, uh, a group of probably for the most part, white supremacists, just as committed to white supremacy as- as- as many of the people who were in the mob. Uh, they were committed to certainly- certainly to a certain level of law and of civil order, uh, but they- they, uh, had their bayonets turn inward, um,

they were controlling the Freedom Riders just as they had tried to control- control the mob and, uh, they were in charge and it was, uh, not a very, um, you know, um- not a very, uh- oh, I don't know what to say here. [Interviewer] Let me ask you again. [Arsenault] Yeah. [Interviewer] Because I-I just think we need to ex-explain this, so that, you know, so- so as, there's this group of- of- of whatever you want to call them, rednecks, whatever, and- and as the Freedom Riders start to come out, the bayonets wouldn't have- are turned on them, I mean when you say turned inside- I don't really know what you mean- [Arsenault] I understand. [Interviewer] the bayonets are turned on them, and they're told "get back in the church." Okay. [Arsenault] At the end of the siege- [Interviewer] Again, we don't know it's at the end of the siege. [Arsenault] Oh, okay, I was going to say turns out not to be the end, but okay, oh, that's what I was going to say, but okay. [Interviewer] That was good, yeah you say that. [Arsenault] Okay. Um, at what the Freedom Riders thought was the end of the siege, uh, it turned out not to be the end at all. The National Guard, uh, came to, they thought, to liberate them from the situation, but actually, uh, they turned their

bayonets toward them and said "get back in the church, uh, you'll leave on our terms, it's gonna be several hours before it is actually safe for you to leave, and you're gonna leave under the auspices of the Alabama National Guard," and of course that meant under the auspices of a group of people who were for the most part committed to white supremacy, committed to the- to the social order that already existed in Alabama and so it was a bittersweet situation at best for the- for the Freedom Riders and the- the, uh, situation w-was really a harrowing one for them until they finally got on those trucks and got out of that situation. [Interviewer] Okay, one more time, I'm sorry, but if you can say, you know, at- [cut] [Arsenault] In the early morning, uh, the siege appeared to be coming to an end but in actuality it didn't. The Alabama National Guard is called in, uh, to control the mob, um, they, uh, they do that but they don't really liberate the Freedom Riders and the other people in the church. They turn their bayonets toward them and tell them to get back in the church, that "you're not going to be leaving until we

say you can leave, uh, and of course who are the Alabama National Guardsmen? They are all white, um, they're all from Alabama, um, they, uh, p-probably in the vast majority of cases resented being there, um, they felt they were being used, uh, they didn't subscribe to the political philosophy or the- the- the belief in the- in the civil rights movement or the Freedom Rides or any other part of that and- and th-they, uh, um, certainly didn't try to hide that fact and so it was a bittersweet situation at best for the people in the church. Want me to do it again? [Interviewer] Uh, just- I don't like that "bittersweet." [Arsenault] Oh you don't? In the early morning as the siege appeared to be coming to an end, it turned out that wasn't ending at all. The Alabama National Guard got control of the mob, um, the Freedom Riders and the other people in the church thought they were going to be able to leave, um, that they had been liberated, but that wasn't true at all. The- the Guardsmen, they happened to be, of course, all

white, uh, probably the vast majority believed firmly in segregation, they resented being there, they thought they were being used, uh, th-they did what they were told to do, but what they were told to do was to put the Freedom Riders and the other people back in the church until it was safe to leave. Uh, it may have made sense, um, from a military point of view or in terms of civil order, but it was confusing and a bit disillusioning, um, that you- to have people pointing their bayonets at you as they're trying to liberate you from a church where you've, uh, you know, you've been under siege for hours and you weren't sure whether you were going to survive the night.