American Experience; The Murder of Emmett Till; Interview with William Winter, former Mississippi governor

think he's been talking a lot about the upper mississippi delta is the special places in our the historian joan collins says the bill also the mississippi delta as the most low voice americans that you're welcome i grew up just a few miles from where the delta began that great for the pancake running from memphis to this for them the mississippi really sealed to an amount more on the amount we're the unique ways poisonous the mystery remains of great heroism at times and also returned when he said that police as the most southern place on earth the names of the focus off furloughed represent perhaps enabled place

that the cultural economy and which then southwest was built caught on primary common with the plantation owns large longs only white man and always were the descendants of slaves and late nineteenth them throughout the twentieth century or the sharecrop system and a huge oil a huge agricultural economy the us saw people mistreated it turns them know that overturns a l l and moshe really about the mess of the leaders are setting the last update is a beautiful is my first time an adult to last week and so it's an incredibly beautiful place one gross through the loess

hills and look so the sweep of those fields below flat as a pancake as for the city its breath and particularly at this time you time you cross a green or in the fall when the curtains open using an amazing beautiful mystical place is sort of square miles below the bill before love violence over gasping at the site as the camo the loess hills and see the expansive phrase correctly he threw a lot of that to it's ok for that they are two of the film from the euro well you think via the the till case receive somewhat to listen

to you not too many months the supreme court decision and an and brown was born british and late nineteen fifty four and then the second supreme court decision so the worse as a result of this issue with which threaten was threatening institution of racial segregation in the senate and this particular isn't coming as it did and so minor fall of nineteen fifties that right after the you know the organization of the white citizens' councils across the mississippi river also well that came along the subject that attracted most contagious this was really important to hear

not that of someone such as two for will but the importance of the toolkit was that it broke most wanted to minimize look into the system the social system of law and justice that will exist in this for the country what was the reaction you're in mississippi in the delta of the brown versus board of that if you can set yourself so the kind of the back story that led to them can two peso so a year before you're half before his brown versus board then what was the original reaction in la in mississippi in the south to brown vs board of

that so fast no fossil opposition live on many of the new leaders it innovated organization such as well known to see any assuming this they go the same day and that was the that was the beginning of a kind of paranoid massive resistance that predominated and sell for about a decade i mean different yet it is explaining what the massive resistance because you know when we say matters as much as we think of resistance on the other side of the civil rights movement were what i know that you're using massive resistance and what you mean and who was massively resisting what the white population of the diesel one of resisting it up with the secondary school systems and public accommodations and joe and the psychology was that if the white people of the south

with the state until there's no force on earth including the force of the united states government that can change that system if you can give me is that i think that you know that a lot of younger people see this film you know both in the south and the north who don't know what the citizens council or what will it mean in the voices of them and how they come and losers of staff moves toward him as a mission in the midst of the bill in the summer of nineteen fifty four following the mighty supreme court decision and gravity ordered to purpose of the citizen's council was to create an organ master base of support to resist desegregation the castle's consistent generally regarded girl respectable business leaders and community many political leaders when barton says the staff

and it was it was an effort to build public support political support for the moments of segregation in every respect and the dudes and when i saw those amazing consensus and counseled records have been opened and some key commissioners was that was a film that the citizens' council made around that time to four fifty five i kind of thought the the wonderfulness of the wonderfulness of segregation and it just made me think how you know there was a belief that you know that was right you know and they we have to reset that the scene and at that time the people you know people really believe that that was that was right that true many many white southerners particularly the deep south so perhaps mostly sell so sincere that this was an

acceptable mode of living that everybody was better off that way that black people are relatively happy in there and then segregated relationships with white people and they are both white people i think at that event since the us that this was a defensible social system at the beginning of the till case when when the men were arrested on one of the things that that will not win a one for this film is was there a failure that maybe there was this brief notes and i said this brief spark of justice that that that you're ok for once you arrest of these cat was was a loser offended that okay maybe just as is going to be done with this is that you know the general reaction and why commitment the

two to one discuss converse but although a few there were a few people there were few respectable people in the white community who saw the film the murder of emmett till you and i think that was reflected in many of the new state local newspaper and islamists a tour and i think there was a reassurance when now than the officials of the services including to joan happen to be the global activists following as the big variable for the euro crisis of prosecuting those who have been drawn in the corner i suppose i thought that that is

going to rest until we know did maybe there might be actually a conviction at this time to me at the very beginning as a family often so if there was a genuine feeling they're depending on what the proof was at the trial that this was what the state was that there ought to be doing and that if they were in fact guilty of cram what was doing chores that they should be punished i think this was the rare man prefer strong and working and there was no there were very low level or the people that helped him with it drive just for today on voter of those groups are the event that they will view that should the one point there was an expectation get one that was it helpful to the state of mississippi to prosecute those bills until

four special counsel german district attorney and a very highly respected circle jerks who presided over that trial that there was a good chance that a conviction would be gay christopher wahlen think that that really fascinates me is there was this feeling you know i'm on a moment by community outrage even in the delta even though white citizens reaction to tumor and one of the i think that that really fascinated me about the story is that there is this outrage and that seems to be and our age know before coming into it you know only manages until june our agenda but they're engaged in those counties that changed and is this kind of banding together we talk about that what you know what happened

one of the impacts of the trial courts the maximum of media attention hundreds of people poured into the lieutenants the town of song tell it to a report all into this trap and the local citizens and not just the local citizens about a great many white people in the state of mississippi again to get a feeling that this was an intrusion on that story and that the world is being sold and a defensiveness begin the city has been a rejection of the process by which this trial of maine carried on national moment of serbia so it was a resistance to the outside world coming in and looking and our clothes and finding

skeletons that we really did not want the world saying i think that was the basis for the rising opposition the team said he was thinking about this more i was like no question it is when you think about you know what does that say when there's this kind of gathering of people is standing together and on but only other side there's fourteen european was killed but the banding together seems to be the stronger in polls there was certainly i think people in the psyche of ramos white mississippians liane so was so was a consciousness that we really were trying to defend the indefensible but we really didn't have it dark sad to how our system will segregation and so i

think i think it was it was the unraveling of that go and that defensiveness that have more so much of our history that people began to come unglued and it was this i think that we saw reflected in the you know in attitudes of when and what mississippi and about to get us and the defense said from that moment bryan weren't his closing statement the moment drop by isis our way of life is on trial in a system that was the whole idea there was a real feeling of what the daily weather

it was a reflection of the and chaps resistance to breaking down the mores of them stay as they were reflected an incident and racial segregation and have a crack in that wall in a crack in that scene worse the beginning of the down the downfall surrogates as an octave not just in the ambiguities and coffee shops all over so that we do only assume we'll we'll start doing all of the first thing you know we will have service south and black people rejecting obama's one point it was a real free have generated bad about those who are who have at a heavy deeply insecure and security i think was at the heart of deep insecure about throw a system of on racial

segregation that they understood though was under attack that they were trying to defame and that they really engage and desperation hormones workers are almost any any in too thin man of them most of them most of the allure of those who have a position one party the point out i think sincerely relishes the board well what they were german and maintain segregation well without violence of possible but also with violence it that way two years ago the lord was isn't reflected in the two or moma what the phone one thing is that he said on the photo is about to change in the black population of the war to the whole idea of sort of control and this is just

this is just general feeling of the world that is it today we head to a lot of people that things started changing after world war two it is in the minds of black people told about that whoa whoa what two words that if i hold this country and so many ways not the least of which was changed in recent years thousands hundreds of thousands of black market or snow came back or want to be thought of this country they have to put the level alone they've seen how life was leo countries of the world the serbian they came back a service scientists and i'm in manhattan and they weren't of the song bad and so the significance of world war two or to win the final step for this country and in almost every way not the list of

which was the wrestlers and hundreds of thousands of oil taxes and there's time to talk or walk to film the constant fighting overseas lose the last and then they came back and they found are still ar a segregated society whether it could involve where they couldn't no the public accommodations eleven where they will face with inferior school opportunities it was then the girl many of the potomac to production to assist in some other civil rights heroes devoted the last day that were making that change this was a major for something in the family dram to de segregate so the emergence of oil a black population that insane how people leo outside the south and will who want hetty with

the segregated discriminatory where you live they were confronted with the messiah they would turn to change it and they are getting to them but has a question before forgive me just a little bit as a politician how hard it was what was it hard to break wakes and you could you as a politician you could you how hard was it to through for scientists began it was a radical iran welcomes the conservative moderate position on certain mission to do it to them in that moment but in the political community wants that you don't do it you don't concede anything you will you done this ditch and any

politician who suggested that maybe that wasn't the best course that we'll take it we'll look talk changing the system slightly incremental it was not going to be well regarded by one election so worse than the worst thing they've set a while mississippi a southern politician at that time was that he was the one and i was that boy that double that to know that in the name of being a miner and the side of saying that you know we we we we must to break the law whether we want to see the system change or not we were worth the mind tying respect for the law and to begin the process of limiting those areas of discrimination that we can eliminate and then move on to creating a

true by rufus that you could not define that you could never find that explicitly at the tap and so they're politically unstable and listen for one second tell them about the state's case and evade the state really tried to convict these guys i think the stadium likable sunday we do not know all the details so that when and then steve's i didn't know that you know personally and principals who were involved in the state he's the attorney general of mississippi this week turning the special prosecutor that the stallion lord and the surgeon general to overthrow the usual their own will punish and i think you know i think they will mean little people could lead to the migrants onboard justice and

slave owners and respectful well i think that mabel friday until about i don't think they had any illusions they called these electoral commission announced that they want to sell more than one and this morning prosecuting strong across to a white man on workers that did not happen all the fact that they've been workable funny about that go into caves the tone there was there was a lot to trap and shoot some criminal justice going on taliban rule breaking that's the second second ago you were talking about the movie the eyes of the world on on on this is not that i like the affairs of the world when this was different mississippi was uncomfortable having as of the world have

focused all you know we prefer lil and some isolation and the vigilante you know alice in wonderland moment that owls wessel i will life reptile need to be preserved and the world amongst them that though and there was this today we were comfortable a thoughtful progress of the people outside of state there was a defensiveness about an insecurity and i think that probably motivated that they were one of the things that has been serious when the eyes of the world one visit there that there were looking at this whole picture him in the hole to

hasten and war to world of men in some cases as as the kind of home the first step in this in the civil rights movement that was the council can you talk about the significance of the till case in what was to follow the two rookies woes before is really a celebrated case in this forum that embargo although much of civil rights and later went to explode in so many different ways it was the first and that girl attention was focused only yo peculiar institution of segregation and so and ohio that was its for other media as the media covered the tool kit it helped to help the whole system up for inspection of the rest of the country like the

rest of the world and so that is the real significance of the two take it was it was the beginning of the four were saying own the problems between the races in the deep south that column at men the ultimate us towards balance out of the rest of the fifth is in an unnamed the sixties and before the two teams that hit except that except for the scotts forties an elbow well twenty years before it went to the two rookies there have never been this most lenient terms of the report no the the system of certain gate from member of discrimination that existed in the deep south dakota when we talked a little bit about a quarter you know the culture of of the delta the culture of mississippi alone don't let it from from your but

how could you tell us from chicago that somehow heart of what would have been for a chicago boy to understand now and this is a people too but this also which is the delta calls it what is so this teenage boy who had grown up in chicago others that was not familiar with the mores of the senate even though as i recall his mother a long term conducting himself in a way that they're not directly onto jet engine to be worked out my impression too that job when he did it would probably owes him told us being aware of how when you have local servers so he was i think i think he was nothing more than a

naive young man who was not aware that he was traveling he was trespassing on the mores of the site i'm well i want to not only talk about in this film not only about black or white but also there's a thing of class and so you know i mean my mom and brian were from one class and class in this delta culture in common the roles well people love the socio economic level of the two defendants in this case will obviously lupone burgio more restrictive lights almost a

scientist named that they look down the maximum from sources well not so say with those who were involved in running the communities so but you want to play us for and one of jon they will know minimal economics at is minimal did not contribute much to the community in which they live but there was delightful and no interest in the show the white community you know rather than no and i'm in support of rio against a young black person for whom they had even greater distance one of the big things about this whole case and an end and the

reaction among black people was mitchell's mother's decision to leave the casket open in the pages that were at work on the cover of jet magazine and went out to the world phone while you're a cannon down as the black community unified the three little old was the reaction in the white community to these pictures there was an embarrassment feeling that she was a propaganda housing in a way that reflected the unfair loan will old white people and in the south and that this have been done not for full list of books is that an agenda that was at odds with what public by people and cellphones is now the

hindus and of discrimination so good so those kind of reverse or another kind of our age of these pictures is of the warmth that there was there was a feeling that he was taking advantage of this taro grow to create and do a new emotional response to in the mail with the resulting political affects the political effects of goals or to want to take a photo of an infected hopefully my last question and i you know so one of the things that though now i am looking at the pictures of the trial the footage of the trout you know you see these people these angry white folks there and i'm looking at one day when discovery one amy about what we know and they were angry and everybody says that you know why am i am black who at the

trial that there was in ankara what were the people there in the corner angry about if it's hard to say exactly what they were angry about so many years later but my guess is they were angry at the casa so many people have come into the little peaceful community and it's there on listener emotion and now we're reflecting on friday on what they conceived of the you know proper way of life it was an ankle brace that led him and insecurity about to maintain segregation and at upper back some level of service up the communist suggests that that system needed to be changed only know minimum wage no support someone knows that some songs so emotions that prompted a civil

war years before one worker in this congress mississippi may compete for who cut pension general the only in my little us today gavin at a sound file the uniqueness of the beauty of the diet the historian jim crow of robo call them also plays on it it's about the most of the bill and he defends its if you mean you make me is based on and so when you wrap course they slept with a movie or soul and the fact that an economy based almost entirely normal cotton on

huge plantations reserve available why the memos and worked in science about insulin so how this is tomorrow covers economics is to seeing the railway line that doesn't it right that exemplify what what the civil war was all about really socio economic system that have no white people in positions of the iranian people in positions of inferiority and out of it also came through you know commitment to maintain that system at all costs and that's what the civil rights battles of the fifties and sixties for one more quick question on one thing that pence of those of the doubt that that time fifty four fifty five

different had not changed that much from slavery and that the system was progress saying it was beginning to change radically with americans a nation forming and with the substitution of the chemical processes for the faulty cultivating and harvesting and the cotton club with the result that many many of the workers on the farm but we're also have already left you go off and search and social change and so it was and it was so early in the middle of this period of change to go the two struggle scott the focus is to do one reason i thirty seconds of quiet in order if businesses be