City Makers; 102; Mayor Richard Hatcher

Man you are young man. Thirty two years old. And for the past year bet on the hot spot being one of three Negros in America a mayor of a major city. You are part of this category of Negro mayors including Carl Stokes of Cleveland one to Washington Washington D.C. and you mayor of Gary Indiana the city close to Chicago but somewhat separate from Chicago's population of 180000 people. Fifty four percent of whom were Negroes. How do you feel as a. Young man 32 years old with this rather or some responsibility. Tell us a little about your personal reactions to this. Well I think personally that the experience of being mayor of Gary has been a challenging one and it has certainly developed

I think for me greater insight greater understanding of the complexities of the problems of modern day urban America. I think that one becomes quite proficient after a while at identifying then defining problems. The great difficulty of course lies in finding the solutions. I've enjoyed this first year I I think in finding out I found out that things are much worse than I expected. At the same time I feel some optimism in that I'm convinced that the problems are manageable and given the necessary resources. I believe that they can be solved. But before we get to the problems are you still a little interested in the personal part of your role as mayor and looking into your background I find out that you weren't even a

native of Gary. In fact you do relatively newcomer your carpetbag. Yes. We've just been in Gary eight years and within the first four years you were running successfully as a Democrat for city council. How did you decide to assume this kind of responsibility in a city that you weren't even a part of. Ten years I'd like to say can that it was a deliberate judgment that I made at some point in time but unfortunately it was not. I recall during the campaign for mayor that people one of the oft repeated charges was that I had so recently come to the city I came to Gary immediately after graduation from law school in 1960 and that in addition that I was really too young to be mayor of the city of course my response the standard response to

that to both questions really was that I had gotten there as soon as I could. And that in essence is true I think graduation was advocating towards her. Without even knowing it there were a number of coincidences that occurred in my life that eventually placed me in Gary. I had planned as a matter of fact not to practice law in Gary but really in Michigan City my home town and there was great difficulty in Michigan City for a black lawyer to get started and as a consequence of that I determined that I would seek more fertile fields. And so I moved to Gary and began practicing law in fact in the chicago. And then of course became very much involved in civil rights activities in the city of Gary demonstrations and for

open housing demonstrations for fair treatment at the local hospitals. Another move from the role of civil rights demonstrator to the role of a yes mayor within eight years. Well as matter of fact the feeling was that after a period of about three years I began to realize as did many of my contemp contemporaries in America in Gary that demonstrations were not going to get the job done that they created a kind of. Dramatic conflict but I think that I can solve for death right. Well Henry James with us this evening was one of the first journalists over social analysts to predict that the young man by the name of Richard Hatcher who figures in 1965 uses the five three years ago predicted that you were going to be mayor of Gary Howard.

What grounds if you like this prediction. Well I'm not sure that any particular grounds except it is quite obvious that Gary was quite black and that the white people were moving out of Gary to some extent and more and more. Black children coming and being born and so on and so eventually they Gary would have a black mare. So why did you take the big picture. Well because he was the only articulate and thoughtful person that I saw after spending many weeks in that community who could really move the people at that time he was quite a thorn in the side of the establishment. He was on radio as I recall and many many times. You really let them have it. And Woodward was not kind to indicate that he could become mayor. No because I think we have to understand Gary's political background and understand that the there are a lot of good people in Gary good white people good black people and then you have other ethnic Howard let me in. It interrupted moment but

that he would have people but good white people do not ordinarily gravitate toward. They were looking for a girl Millet honesty they were looking for integrity. I mean if you go back to what you said earlier the votes that he get from those people you had to carry with white vote you couldn't possibly have won without white. Well I'd like to say I could not possibly have won without the overwhelming support of the black community that I receive a percentage of I only receive about 17 percent of the white vote. But you had to have at least 70 percent while I won by a very narrow margin of about 700 votes at 17 percent and Gary still working town is a high percentage blue collar town terms of whites. Yes rightly it is not if it's a sophisticated town in any sense of the word. I mean it's a working man's town. It's a it's a town with saloons and a lot of people going there after work and there the old time kind of thing that you might have found him. We still find him in some of the factory towns of New England and Florida is a political.

Journalists. What would be your estimate of the percentage of the white vote that big hatchery would get if he were running as a next November. Let's start. It's an interesting question. I think that he would lose black folks. I think he's lost black support in the ghetto especially in midtown area in the heart of the ghetto. I think he's going to have greater white vote I think that he will probably have more support from the business community. This is why he probably will lose blacks become part of the establishment. Is that now or do you share this. No I don't. However I have to admit that mine is not an entirely unbiased opinion. I don't feel that the black support is eroding. You know I really don't in fact I feel that if anything I think that we are developing stronger support in the black community. Precisely because in a sense we have continued to oppose. What. Constitutes substantially the establishment is true that Gary has a black mayor.

But in the final analysis I do not really control many of the major institutions and I truly are certainly don't when you talk about jobs you have to talk about us dealing obviously I have no real control or influence and you a steal but I understand you do have a we have a very reactive. More. Yes but the one I'm talking about is being able to produce it for instance if I wanted to wipe out poverty in the city of Gary that is unemployment at least in the city of Gary and I had a mechanism such as U.S. Steel at my disposal. Then I could do it and I could do it very quickly. But the fact is that I don't so and look at the school board. The are actually really getting back to what you said for our true hearing from the people who are part of the lock in with you in the ghetto from midtown. You've got all you've got new animation in midtown because these people are naive some of them because they're very poor They've had it off or do you think there's a possibility that you

might be confusing. Not that I'm taking sides here yet but I probably will later. But. The rhetoric of the black. Militant. It has to engage in certain racial. Rhetoric. But who when the chips are down. And. Required to vote. For or Against that they capture. It depends on the authorization will suspend his rhetoric and I think it depends on his opposition I think Gary is convinced now that it probably will have a black mayor even those who are bigots and everything else. I think they believe this and they think that I think it that they believe it. I try to do the job. The point that I'd like to get back to in terms of your question was. To declare as you believe if you are gaining white support while we're at the same time holding black support. If I understand.

The implications of Howard's. Position it is that it's probably not likely that a black mayor. Can gain white support without at the same time losing some black support as sort of a negative polarization in a way. Do you know I really don't share that. I think that I as I said I'm not really in a very objective position to comment on this particular point but all that I can do is measure the degree of response that we've got and the degree of support for various propositions various programs that we receive and try to measure that in terms of my involvement in the communities are circulating in the community and my impression as I said is that the opposition that may exist is not new that it's opposition held by a house of worship long NPR has changed the midtown area the heart yesterday. How was it changed since you've been off if you will go down and take a look.

First of all much of it does not exist. Well that was urban renewal before you came into office that was not it was started to flow. If I can just say that for the first time this year we have gotten underway with not only clearance but more importantly relocating people in decent housing for the first time this year. People who lived in that were slum that you have referenced who are now living in decent public housing low income housing that is a single family. Structures like how did you manage to do it. This is please it's not so remarkable in terms of beer. Well I mean horses. I think that primarily if I might just point out a few things that happened coming into office. I must say I was a traumatic experience because we received no orderly changeover from the outgoing administration no information about what was there what was inside your own party was of opposition that's right that's right. But the fact was that we had available to us particularly

in the first six months. Resources that I suppose most mayors black or white do not have availed general resources not federal You certainly have some more of those we had we had tremendous support from the federal government but we also had organizations like Mark the Metropolitan Applied Research Center in New York headed by Dr. Clark of course and then we are nonpolitical. I understand that what I'm talking about I'm talking about inputs into that administration administrative inputs and technical and inputs. Potomac Institute sent an individual out to spend about four five months and Gary working helping to structure programs and marks in a number of people that had skills in various areas. The urban situation and as a result of that kind of expertise that was available to us it was possible to overcome many of the problems that we were continue to have

control over. This renewal is a beginning. Do you have control over BN renewal. Yes we have. And what are you doing different. That was going on before because I read the plans of read them all this. Been there about eight or nine years you have had I think the difference is that the plans were there eight or nine years but were not in it and now they are in execution they thought they were under way slowly I graduate that they believe the existing government wasn't doing much they wanted to contain the ghetto they wanted to keep the black man there holding it and so on I understand that they were afraid he was coming out yes into the white neighborhoods. I don't want to take undue credit. But let me say that up until January of this year funds for instance for renewal were there locked up in there. They were not being freed up to get those projects underway. This year alone we've established a new program that is outside of that this is because you have people like Robert Kennedy who were come from a number of national figures who got behind work how does one.

Translate plans and I think is a terrible changes except through as I understand it mobilizing those resources and seeing that they are. You. I've got to give credit to Richard Hatcher in that I do because I want to say that they wouldn't have been behind him if he wasn't the kind of man that I saw. I believe a man who is honest a man who was a man of a lot of integrity and quality. But on the other hand he pointed out the very thing with what he has done and Gary it's wonderful but it is because he has had this kind of record from how I thought he laid out perfectly clear as I as I said I have no pride of authorship in that sense. I think is it true that maybe many of these resources which came. To Kerry with your administration and pretty much as if you were. Receiving technical assistance from the federal government private foundations and the role of an underdeveloped country. But in this case an undeveloped may have been. A result of the feeling rightly or wrongly

that you needed them particularly because your regular party machinery was for some reason which I hope we can get into. Seeking to undercut you or was not really providing I mean it's the spectacle of a Democratic Party. Working against its own kind of date is not a typical spectacle in American society this may have caused some of these forces to. Fight as he does but I think I think that's true to some degree to a very great degree it was true during the campaign itself that much of the assistance that we received during the campaign came as a result of the feeling that the party my own party opposed this. And since that time I'm sure there's many kind of overfull. But today there are those you only because you're black. That's part of it. But there there's a corruption a basic corruption a rottenness in Gary that we've got to recognize our use of it as corruption in the Indigenous story and how this is a Democratic Party

and carry it with it was locked in. Tell us about marriage or cherishing what happened to him I think was close to that I think he helped get rid of that. Well I think that it's true that there was corruption and then that what happened to marriage. We ran on a platform of. Reform reform and I think it's also just as true and more importantly I think that the fact that my caller created a great deal of opposition merchant shares of course was involved in scandals back in prison. Yes he did he went to prison and he came back as a political force as well. He spent a couple of years in prison and it was during that period of course that I ran for the city council while the machine was somewhat fractionated at that point. But the fact is that Gary has no monopoly of course on corruption. I think our neighbors to the west the city of Chicago certainly has a cheer but the opposition that I ran

into the hard core opposition that I ran into was predicated. Not as much on the fact that I was interested in cleaning up that city as as much as on the fact of my color and the I think much of the support and help that we received since I took office has come because I think America realizes I think the country realizes that time and time again it has the Foldit in terms of its promise with respect to black people and I think there's a true feeling in this country that we have to have a success we have to have one or two successes and Gary Barlow's Gary Ross I could do for this demonstration of the possibility of racial success. I think not only Gary I'm certain the same kinds of things are happening in Cleveland I'm sure that Carl Stokes is getting a great deal of help and great deal of support in Cleveland but most reports suggest that he's having a more rocky time than you appear to be having in trying

to deal with equally difficult problems. Well I think that what we have tried to do in Gary was to adopt a kind of independent posture and to maintain our integrity. I suppose that's why I would strongly disagree with Howard with respect to the black community because I think that our ties there are stronger than ever. I have to disagree because I've interviewed people in the black community who are right. Over a period of years who who are upset when crime stops now. Not to say that they are. I am not trying to put down the black people in this particular midtown area but I think you understand they were they were telling me that the numbers racket was good because it made money. It kept money coming in you talk about unemployment they talk about prostitution OK it brought money into the community. They were are you saying that given the historical. Realities that lead to ghettos they should have been able in America.

That a black reformed mayors somewhat or perceived as a traitor. Well if he cannot replace. These jobs these were jobs bad jobs I think thats the key factor here. If you and some of the programs that are underway in Gary if you would interview the personnel in some of those programs you will find that previously many of them were involved in. Illegal activities. Narcotics policy other things but now they are working in programs and you will find interesting Lee. You will find that their commitment to those programs commitment to continue is very strong and the fact is that one cannot go in and I try to make this clear one cannot take the position that crime must cease and that you must eradicate crime and leave a kind of vacuum. Obviously there are some illegal activities activities that are illegal that

in so far as taken taking the circumstances that people find themselves in. Most of the time not out of any fault of their own. One can well understand why they become involved in some of these activities. And you cannot even lemonade those activities and leave a vacuum. Obviously there has to be some viable alternative to that. Has some attraction and some appeal and I think that we've tried to do that but I don't want to give the impression and I think that it would be a disservice really to black people everywhere. Well I don't carry that. There is a kind of feeling of condemnation of illegal activities and that I'm not I'm not trying to suggest this either. I'm saying that people have to eat. And people eat in any way they can. And there are some marginal criminal activities that I certainly don't support I'm I'm totally against that this is one of the things that we were doing when it went in the right about

trying to suppress them put them down but the point is that if the people believed to survive this is that what they know how to do they know how to run now you're saying that given the history of racial exclusion. Yes. Or given the fact with pros have been discriminated against in jobs that are that. For Cher survival for survival this is what I'm saying. I'm saying to take on the other hand is saying yes this might be true but this is not the whole picture and nobody. That. Relatively small percentage. Of people and I think what we're talking about right now has been glossed over by people who think it's too nice to save each day. I think that there are very rotten I have to say though but yeah but it's very very important though that when you study something like this that you do place it in context and I think perhaps it may explain your feeling. After interviewing perhaps people who previously were engaged in certain types of activities that have

been terminated under this administration. But you have to understand that in most instances individuals especially those who had any real stake in those activities were opposed to me to begin to begin with. And also yes and also you have to understand this that in so far as the black community is concerned particularly in the area I'm sure this is true elsewhere. Large operations such as policy operations and other types of prostitution illegal the bulk of the monies the bulk of the benefits of those kinds of activities did not flow to black people there were the times that's right. Well I don't know the Crime Syndicate they went to white people. All right Brinkley and so. So the fact is that and many black people who were engaged involved in those kinds of activities understand this and understand that in the final analysis even in corruption and that kind of activity that they are still being this big that's an interesting

point because I think it's not peculiar to Giri true that the negro. Ghetto residents unlike other ethnic groups does not even have the opportunity to control his own pride. That's right. Even if your soul is on it's a very valid point and. That in fact what you're saying which I think is a general truth for problems of American cities in the ghetto particularly the ghetto areas American cities is that. Crime within the black ghettos merely a subsidiary. To a larger organized Orions and corruption with equity one of the complaints that you hear in the black ghetto from the miners if I may. Hoodlums are black white or hoodlums is that they have no share in the top echelon of the trust and this is a problem and I'm not again supporting this sort of thing I'm but I'm asking you. Let me ask you another question if I may about this whole thing of history of it has been maybe the people of Gary are cynical but they say that every mayor that comes in has to be corrupt because every man has his price and they and he keeps going out.

Your predecessor Mayor Katz in long conversations over a period of time with me I think at one point told me and I'm not quoting him verbatim in it this is open for challenge that at one point when he was early in office somebody came in and put an envelope on his desk and said Here is a $20000 just because I like you and I thing personally and walked out the door and of course he he claims he returned the money and I don't know there are eight charges in having charges lurked yesterday. Well. I think I think he probably did. There may be evidence to that and I mean to the cynicism of the community is such that a lot of people believe that they are catching all the mayors right on back for a number of years. I've made a tremendous amount of money and cherished was the first who really are one of those who really opened it was caught. And set up dummy corporations didn't need to receive money. And also yes there's a kickback Have you received any kind of approaching anybody approach you like this when you came into office or while you were running what it looked like while I was running throughout the period that I was running for office

particularly in the in the primary. There were numerous or offers from individuals who obviously were connected with illegal activities and so on. I believe the highest was also just for support of your and usually the offer was to withdraw from the race and then after that as after the paper a large sum was going on I believe the nation had the highest offer was about $100000. Then after that after the primary was over. Let me you see if I understand $100000 as a contribution to your campaign over 100 hours and dollars I want you to withdraw from that to withdraw and withdraw from the race and. After that though the offers became one of support money for me to be allowed to continue certain activities. Well as course we became I suppose more emphatic each time in rejecting these offers and eventually they just stopped.

It was up Aston because does this not raise what seemed to me to be another general. Question room concerning the negro political official. Particularly one who was responsible for not just Negroes but going for percentage of whites. In your year as mayor of Gary. Do you sense that as a make role you are required to be someone in the position of Caesar's wife. You know beyond. What. Is the spotlight on you are likely to be much more focused and intense in regard to even such things as normal. Campaign expenditures. And. Contributions that you have to be much more concerned about. Possible motivation. Yes I think that that would certainly be true. I'm sure that eventually there will be many black mayors elected in this country to office

and I am hopeful and I don't believe they will have the same problem. But it's certain that while it may be it may very well be but it certainly has been true in every respect that every action taken in scrutinized very carefully and I have called this a year of challenges because there are numerous things that previous mayors have done in the city of Gary and I. I'm not talking about illegal activity there I'm just talking about basic things some of the garden variety yet political activity is just simply let's say fire and we have patronage system in the city of Gary where the mayor. Controls most of the patronage. Firing an individual my right to fire individuals has been a challenge. It's out of hand lawsuits have been filed in the fire department because a certain individual has been the motive or promoted things that went without question before. I've been challenged on that and one of the points that I try to make very early

in this administration was that we have not really reached full equality in this country until black people have the right to feel as well as succeed. That is a right that is enjoyed by everyone else and at this point unless a person can be a Thurgood Marshall in the in the area of law in this so that you can be a kin Clark in the area of sociology then the feeling is that he falls somehow falls short of the mark no matter how good he may be below that particular level. Well the last area of American life to be integrated will be corruption probably. That's probably and you have this Mr. Adams. It's very very true. I quickly yet get away with it with a. Slap of the wrist. Yes there's. It means that for Adam Powell it's totally unacceptable.

There is clearly a double standard in this country there's no question about that I was talking to some young high school students yesterday you mean end of the discussion a mixed group discussion of Rosen one of the white youngsters got up and said I don't understand why we should have to study black history says that's you know if we want to fine if we don't those should be a matter of choice we should be made to study black history and a young black student got up and answered very eloquently and said you know we've been studying white history for years and years and we had to study white history. No one asked us whether we liked it or not whether we wanted to or not we had to study it. And so I think it's about time you started studying art history in other words this time don't change the rules at this point. And as someone put it so well. So obviously there's a double standard in applies to corruption as well as anything else I think we'll ever get to that point in America where instead of studying white history or black history we

probably studying to be able to study American history it's of the consummation devoutly wished you know. Could we get to some really specific problems which you had to face in your first year. Problems such as the houses but housing is. Employment police community relations. Education Yes. And they you know every mayor. City in the United States. Sooner or later. Let's get down to the specifics. Yes of the urban problems which are. The same for all cities. Very true. Wonder what have you been able to do say on this housing in code enforcement things about our time. Let me say because I think it gets back to this whole question of violence in America because the kind of violence that is not spoken of course very frequently is the kind of violence

that permits landlords not to. Keep their promises up and causes people to live under some rather inhuman conditions in Gary just to give you an example off the top of my head. Last year in 1967 in October for the month of October there were three hundred thirty one housing inspections a total of three hundred thirty one. This year for the month of October there were four thousand six hundred twenty seven housing inspections that were undertaken by the Geary building department. Certainly that will not endear you to the real estate. Obviously not and I was about to add that we have made some perhaps what might be considered a new enemies maybe individuals who were neutral before or very young again some of them are going to be black at MH 2 because some of these people that do own these houses you're inspecting our blocks they are all white except that the percentage is very small and the number of blacks who are find themselves in the situation usually are in a contractual situation where they are buying a property

on contract. Many are paying almost double what the property is actually worth. And then in the final analysis they bear the burden of collecting rents paying taxes and all of that which they pay to the landlord who simply live in the suburbs and rakes in the benefits of this. Well what we are doing now with the code inspections of course is going against owners which catches the landlord. That's right but it also hurts some of the black people who did support you. And they feel that they're being ticked off. I know this is true. Well to some degree that may be true but I think that in the final analysis it's much more important that we force owners and landlords to bring problems like landlords who don't have the income. To bring the buildings up to standard as the white slumlords do and they could also say you need to do it for the most part have the equity. That's right it was probably it's right for our agents pretty much. Yes Rollie they're almost I'm going over there it's right there in the middle almost And the fact is though that the kind of actions that we're taking

it certainly does some harm to the person who's buying the property on contract but it does greater harm to the owner of that property because he's the one that the law holds accountable for making repairs and bringing the property up to standard. So I think in that sense it is extremely important that this accelerated code enforcement program continue. One of the things that we have done and again. I don't want to keep mentioning any one organization but Mark provided us with the technical assistance to prepare a code enforcement a code enforcement an application for a concentrated code enforcement program. And we have that application is now being submitted to the Department of Housing and Urban Development and hopefully it will be approved not that is approved. There will be additional federal funds to even step up the intensity of our code enforcement program.

So in addition to a program of increasing the number of units yes you are embarked on a second equally difficult program of up bring greater standards and maintaining those that's very important to not allowing those neighborhoods that are still in a fairly good condition not allow him to see lighter also. And I might just add too in the area of housing that for instance first time in 20 years in Gary that any low income housing has been constructed. We are pleased that this is the first time this year that it's happened we've gotten something done in an area the first time the city's history. We have approximately sixteen hundred units of middle income housing either constructed completely completed all this year or under construction or approved. That's the city's never had that before. We've always relied upon the private housing market and now we're getting into two 2:39 programs programs federal or federal subsidies are being used and we see the fruits of the head in that there's new housing there

there's there's a place for people to live. So I think in the area of housing we have other programs of course that are aimed at creating the kind of decent housing that is needed but in that area I think substantial progress has been made and again I don't want to say that it's all because of this administration but the fact is that many of these things were available before and no one felt inclined to really push hard enough to make to take Are you equally optimist. Think about the area of law enforcement and police community relations in. One area because I was a pretty naughty. Oh yes that is in most cities and I was one of our serious problems and of course for me the problem took on two facets one the actual situation with respect to crime as such as I understand crime. And then of course the more complex sociological situation that is incorporated in the use of the phrase law and order.

Crime in the street and that kind and we had holidays we had to be able to differentiate because it was very important to me that I did not follow the same path that many others had followed and simply reacting in a suppressive way to the legitimate aspirations of people that were being manifested through anti-social behavior that I understood that well enough to undertake programs that were going to meet legitimate social aspirations of particularly black people and poor people. And in that way towards fight crime quote unquote as well as try to have an efficient law enforcement. But you had to show problems with your police department with corruption within the Parliament you've got laws in Indiana I wish you'd tell us about the resistance of your department to this approach to what the laws are holding down the first of the First Law Of course that we ran into was the fact that the chief of police had to be appoint from within the department itself. You can help bring in a new batch and often that's right and we have the situation where

it was almost common knowledge that many policemen and Gary were connected with the syndicate they had underworld ties and that was fairly fairly generally accepted by I don't know how many people died. But. What we did was we did find a man and I'm convinced we found a man that has integrity and dedication and commitment and James Hilton who is the chief of police is he white or nigger he is white he is white and then of course we the assistant chief Chief of Police. It was the number two man. It was a young policeman who had shown great promise. In my opinion and so he was elevated all the way really from patrolman all the way up to Assistant Chief of Police and he is black and they work extremely well together as a team. But the important thing about the chief I think is that he recognizes that the problems that the police department is being asked to solve today and that many police departments are being asked to saw are

primarily not police problems there are sociological problems and that that ought to receive the attention of the total federal of the total government. And so he was interested in initiating of course efficient police practices but at the same time programs that were going to meet some of these problems and to make try to make certain that people did have a decent place to live and that people got employment. I can't number the number of individuals that he personally helped to get jobs and that kind of thing because he knew that was going to make his job as chief of police is this visible Jubilee. I think world community very much in fact in selecting a chief of course we were screaming that no you had the power and the authority to say that's right or oh that's right. And the final before I made the final judgment in that respect of course I talked to a number of individuals who can only be described as why nos and I say that with great compassion and great feeling but and I asked them about this man and what they thought of him and they described him as a

man who was fair and who was was concerned and they're they're his images and so far as they were concerned was an excellent one. And so and he has borne that out as a matter of fact just yesterday evening in the northwest Indiana Crime Commission north. That is a commission that the course encompasses a number of major corporations in northwest Indiana that have come together to fight crime. And just yesterday evening our chief of police received their highest award as the outstanding individual Think how do you square that with reports that. Folks crying in Gary have. Gone up 60 percent I think ministration your administration under this chief. Yes I think where this is an instance where Howard can certainly understand the problems that I cannot even answer to but I have I'm sure you can by the press first of all of course we're

reporting crimes now that were never read you're also Michael arrested never yet and that is very true. We're making additional arrests of course that creates additional supply how do you square your statement that he was a police chief. Who looks upon the problems of the police as reflecting essentially deeper sociological problems and was gone out to try to. To the extent that a police department can address and solve those problems and at the same time tell me that you are making more arrests. Yes well I think I can because as I said activities that heretofore were sanctioned activities I don't sanction want to be at least getting some kickback imes I'm certain that they were without going into great detail. But the fact is that now those activities are no longer being sanctioned and people are being arrested and they're being charged. That does not prevent the fact that for instance we now have a store front police headquarters program that attempts to pull in individuals in the

community and it doesn't deal with police problems as I say deals with all kinds of other problems but not necessarily police problems. And there are other programs similar to that. Let me point out to you that for the first time two in my memory in the city of Gary for the first year there has not been a single charge of police brutality. Brought against the police department and I think that's significant because transferable to places like Chicago or Wiley will pull it off. I happen to feel that a policeman's attitude depends in large part on the attitude of his superiors. And I think policemen recognize how far they can go how much they can get away with especially in this area of a violation of constitutional rights. And what I would like to think is that in Gary the attitude that is coming down from the top through the chief is that we are not going to engage in those practices that a policeman can be efficient and he can do his job with it without violating people's

constitutional rights without engaging in random and senseless beatings and that kind of thing and I would like to feel that it's just the statistic that I just mentioned is a reflection of that. I gather some slime. More directly involved in the New York City problems. What do you say that maybe one way we could improve. Police community relations in a city as large as New York is to explore the possibilities of decentralizing our police operations and getting down to manageable units of one hundred fifty hundred eighty 200000. Population areas. But that's another problem. Let me say one thing about that before you leave this question. This whole question of the centralization because there is a definite trend towards the centralization I think in government in schools and so on. One of the interesting things that I found in Gary in the search here one of the problems in fact has been that there has been some degree of decentralization of

governmental functions. For instance we have independent boards controlling our health department independent boards controlling the park department our sanitary district is controlled by the independent board now in most cases. The mayor has some input into those boards by appointment or otherwise but in the final analysis those boards act as as autonomous units. And I have found that this year that that has created some problems it's created some problems in terms. Developing a concerted thrust and and coordination problems according nation. I think what I would very much favor is the idea of the decentralization of services that is delivered yesterday being able to deliver services at the point where they are needed. And I would hope however that some thought would be given to this whole question of the centralization of control. Now I think that in a city like Gary one can make a much stronger case for that than one can in New

York I think obviously in a city as large as New York. There has to be some autonomy given to local local districts and local area autonomy with some coordination some coordination I think there is some provision there are to be some mechanism to make sure that you're not going off in different directions. Can I come to. Problem. An urban problem Lou has concerned me almost or my entire adult life. And that's the area of education I notice that you have a. New superintendent of schools and Gary young man whom I first heard about in North Carolina where he was doing some tremendous. Things garden like Andrews. How did you manage to be able to get such a. Dynamic. Late 20th century first in the head the schools of Gary. Well everything that you say about Gordon like Andrew is not is true. There's no question about it. Here he is indeed fortunate to have him as a superintendent.

I think there are an interesting group of circumstances very early in the spring of this year. There has long been agitation in Gary for the integration of the school system in 1963 in fact that served as one of the lawyers who filed a lawsuit against the school system. Trying to force it to desegregate. And so there's been continuing agitation in that respect to what the school board had remained relatively impassive to those pleas. Well that agitation this year accommodated in a seven day boycott of the schools that was I thought pretty effective and a boycott of black students and the demands of the boycotters number for one of them was the removal of the present superintendent at that time deal in the Clarence wing Lee and the boycott was finally concluded because a confrontation had developed where. That very clearly was

going to escalate into a very violent situation and the boycott ended after the seventh day and then shortly thereafter however still with the carry over from the boycott the school board did quietly retire the superintendent the school board has autonomy. Yes the school board that's correct I appoint the members of the school board but they have staggered terms and for instance of the five man board this year I had one appointment so obviously it will be some time before I will have any real next year in fact I will have two more appointments. But the fact is that they were really unyielding on this point. But they after the boycott ended. They did retire this gentleman and the search began for another and it was very clear the mood of the black community in Gary I think was very clear and had been manifested by that boycott and the kinds of

discussions that took place during the course of that that they would not tolerate a superintendent and another conservative conservatively oriented superintendent primarily concerned with the quality of education they were children really concerned about the quality of it more so than de-escalation because one of the things I well I think the emphasis was on quality quality as opposed to desegregation because of course that's another discussion but the thing that really precipitated this boy was the fact that. Test had been given throughout the school system and the test showed very clearly that black students were underachieving. That they were not and in fact the test shows that the entire system was underachieving. But the black students in particular were under achieving Of course this created great concern. Can I just interject a little story a personal case that I know about that I think you know about. Two was a young man by the name of Julius Fagan I mentioned his name but he said a fine young man. I met him when I was

in Gary he was 16 at the time. He had been in a neighborhood that was very rough three blocks from the police station and there was prostitution going on around him numbers racket illegal liquor basement liquor sales all sorts of things crime I think some interesting people. Yes I did and and. This young man at 16 I checked up on him because he seemed to be very bright to me and this young negro boy was I was told was I had one the highest IQ is in his grade level in that school. Let me tell you what happened to this boy as I understand it as I could get the information and you know that at times public officials want to cover up information not give you the straight story but I think this is true. Present company excepted. But anyway the point was that this young man. From Gary Julius Fagan is now out of the street and as far as I can find out why living in this area where prostitution was condoned to where all of these things going on he was caught smoking on the playground and they threw him out of school. A very bright young man and as

far as I can determine he did get involved in the Job Corps for a while but I understand he's back walking the streets he's about 18 or 19. We're going to lose this young man a very bright man who could be a very positive help. Something must get done. I think that's just one example of a goodly recovery that one of the first things that the mayor will do is to try to find your leaders and see that we don't lose him. We've already agreed. But the fact is that in some of the black schools we did a survey and some of the black schools where people were entering those schools with the IQ which of course is that is not a real measure but in the 140 145 range they had every year they progressed in that school system. It went down and down and down until by the time they graduate of course they had this is not peculiar to Gary and this is the search area that all schools throughout the state get where we are actually the schools are dehumanizing.

Yes. In this drawings I saw rather than let me just add this that one of Joyce's sisters and I think that that this is a little touchy of grounds but she's in a training school now not for committing a crime or anything else but for truancy. She she was unable to stand the school as Joyce had same problem. Yes she's a very bright girl there's a whole family of bright children a fine mother. The mother really cares she got those kids off to school. They live in four room there are 10 children four rooms. A very tragic situation the father got on narcotics. This was before not an archive to clean up and Gary and he just disappeared from the picture. Yes it was you know an intact family until the narcotics came along broke it up. She'd been holding it together but but this this system has been fighting this family. She has done everything. This is the same system that the mayor of Gary. Prior to to Mayor Hatcher had refused to really get into the black ghetto and find out what was going on and he went in. I think that Dick will remember the night that that I've persuaded him to walk with me at night through them to the city of Gary

and he found this Fagan family and gave them hot water in a bathtub for the first time they're living in four rooms and they're sleeping four to a bed and it's a horrible situation. Coming close to social dynamite. Yeah well I guess that's pretty when you have a very very bright boy and the rest of the family very bright. Yes I think that one of the things that I feel some real concern about is not at this point not so much the question of integration because obviously I think we can conclude from the experience of the last 10 years and integration is not the final answer. And it's going to take it hasn't tried that yet if ever. Heaven let's say that for that perhaps it cannot happen under the our existing structure but it's extremely important to me that those black schools be able to deliver the kind of education the quality the level of education that will make it possible for those young people to move into into this world and to compete.

And so I think that our concern now and while Gordon McAndrews obviously is committed to a policy of integration has made that clear. And is he a Southerner. Oh I believe he is originally from California I'm not certain I know that he was in Berkeley for a while of course Berkeley I guess is the only city in this country that has a fully integrated school system through a very complex real solemn. Yes exactly. And but it's exciting to have a superintendent and as I told these young students yesterday the very the difference the difference is it's so important to understand first of all power relationships who has power and what that person does with it. And then if you understand that then you can understand how important a difference it can make to have an individual in a position of power who is committed to bringing about change that is going to help people as opposed to the opposite.

May I ask another question. Is the schooling really relevant to what the black child wants agent understand or is it becoming that. I think there is no question about the answer to that question. It's not only relevant it is probably the cornerstone. And again I must say that this is the bottom. I'm sorry I didn't state that well is the curriculum really meaningful to the child. That's what I'm trying to write. But obvious and the answer to that is obvious to it's not at this point but I think in very you know as I begin to see and I spent as much time as I can going into schools and talking to kids and talking to teachers I think that there is at least the beginning at this point to develop an understanding of what is relevant and what is not. And the whole discussion with respect to teaching Afro-American history courses in the schools in Gary they they're going to be taught now and I think things of that nature that will begin to make it relevant I think

to the you know this is not the basic problem of terms of the inefficiency of education. Four ghetto children and low income whites a problem that in the. Primary grades these children are just not taught in the fundamental academic good. Yes tools of reading and arithmetic. And I wonder if we don't address ourselves to that basic problem of. Competence in these academic basic competence basic competence whether Afro-American history or anything else. Well I think I don't have to say this to you that one of the problems that black children face all over this country and in elementary schools in particular is that teachers and sometimes unfortunately black teachers adopt the attitude that these children cannot learn and they cannot achieve and they do not understand they cannot comprehend if I could go back to the second family for a minute. There was never a magazine newspaper or a book in that home. They had never

seen it. My wife happened to go over and visit them because she's she wanted to know what I was looking at. And she took a couple of children's books from the little boy about three years old the kind of things that little kids read. And the two girls the older girls one of them who has been kicked out of school for truancy grabbed those books and held it like this and loved them. It was the first book they've ever own. How can you get. How can you help this family she can't get bread and potatoes on the table for those kids with the Indiana well for their payments how can you as mayor reach down and solve these problems. I think it's obvious the mayors are going to solve very many of these problems and mayors are not going to solve them in isolation that's right. That's exactly right. There is going to have to be a change in the basic institutions in this country including government and its attitudes about poverty and about poor people about black people. Those unless those very profound changes develop in our country. Many of these problems cannot be solved on the local level is just obvious when the resources are what

would you suggest stay in the area of welfare. What sort of national or federal. Reorganization of the welfare approach would help you in dealing with the problems that you have to deal with in the city of Gary. Well I think the first thing is that somehow welfare has to be freed up from state control. There has to be some means of not the national standard. For welfare recipients and then that hearing to that whether you live in Mississippi or whether you live in Indiana it's because right now that formula that permits the state to determine just how much a person's a mother with children is receiving AFDC aid can receive. Secondly and this is something that requires no great change in the law or anything else. Secondly if. There was some effort on the

part of either the federal government or a private organization to nationally. Make those re citizens of welfare aware of their rights aware of what they were entitled to under existing laws then their situation it seems to me would be greatly improved because it would that not increase tremendously the welfare project. Absolutely not. The main blurrier to absolutely and eventually if we increase it enough eventually we might decide to do that. Expensive to get welfare and we would do what you think is right amount of constraint the person I don't know if anyone articulate it earlier than Charles Percy but certainly he was talking about when he was running for the United States Senate in 1966 of making them. Others have said it since then too but making them part of the system bringing the black community giving them you know making free enterprise work for the black community it has worked in the area of minor crime you know it has the illegal liquor sales and all of this. But the point is the point is this whole manner of expecting

private enterprise to solve the problem of poor people and black people I think is a myth. You're a cynical about industry as I am about government I think that yes I do I don't know how cynical you are about but I don't know either. I would just say that many of the problems that we have the poor people had today and black people have today are problems that were created by private industry about you know what to do with Roger taking what U.S. deal with which has been known to you know it's a company town and really isn't because it isn't doing a thing for the town as it has it build a golden triangle as in Pittsburgh but I understand that one of Dick's. Main ally uses U.S. Steel I don't think we want to call this a Polish movie alienating of our lot. I don't have to I don't I don't have to. I think that I can answer the question by saying this U.S. Steel is involved in the community in the city of Gary this year for the first time a greater degree than perhaps it ever has been with the possible exception of

one thousand nine hundred six when Gary was first found in the car while doing everything. Well I think part of the reason is that we've been pretty aggressive about going to U.S. Steel and saying in effect you have a responsibility in this community. The mere fact that your home office is in Pittsburgh does not excuse you from that responsibility Secondly the individual who is now the general superintendent Jittlov became general superintendent of the Gary works at about the same time I became mayor and we both sort of came in at the same time and. Became very good friends and were able to talk to each other in a very frank and honest way and without a collar being anywhere but I think it was not and the fact is that as a human being he was able to respond. He was that kind of human being he was able to respond so now U.S. Steel is doing things like they dropped their requirement that a person who works there have a high school education and they have hired

many hard core unemployed so-called hardcore unemployed and gotten them into a program where they go to school part of the day and they were part of the day and they made a living where standards of the city and yes actually. Exactly exactly and then also they're building 500 units of new housing in the city. Well then how can you be so cynical about industry's role in speaking then I think are you talking about the Rotary Club. I think they're not all in all I'm there. I think this is an exceptional situation. I don't think it would have to be duplicated if you can do it. Yes I think it can be given. Given the kind of understanding insensitivity that the present management in Gary has displayed I think any well that does it also a more solid base would be corporate self-interest. I mean the recognition of that. United States business and industry stands to gain by increasing the percentage of Americans who will be consumers.

Who will be tax payers rather than tax them so where are you. Well I think your point is certainly well taken and that is an important factor. And black people in this country spend as much money as I think it ranks something like tenth in the whole of all countries in the world black people in this country spend that much money every year. And obviously that's a tremendous market and if they can become more productive if they can be given the opportunities. Obviously business has to benefit. So I think that there is a real self-interest there to take Who and your water system I know but I'm not yes. Basically Mamata family plans they have to get tremendous job inflect Yes they have their own outstanding debts they have what if they don't forget. Up to this point nothing. Why not I why I can explain that of course we have gone this year we have gone to the mat foundation we've gone to. But Charles margins are good and I think as much as the markets let me say I think they are going to do some things and very

now but we have gone and asked them to become involved in the community in the way that they are involved in Flint. So I hope that there will be what I had reference to was up to this year I I can explain why they have not done anything. Well I don't again how can you be so cynical about industry if you feel the markets are coming in and there are another. Important group. Well I think one you know eventually and that's an attitude I believe it when I see it happen. What now are you more cynical about the small merchants up and down Broadway. And I know this is a very touchy area because you've got to live with those people but I'm talking about the Rotary Club that I want to club and those who are gouging and part of me not all of them are but just a few but a few merchants that are gouging people on payments I watched a woman who had to buy a television set again the Taken family happened to be I know this family quite well I looked at her her records her cards and that's where I think she bought a television set and I priced it where I would shop. One hundred twenty dollars it was one of these plastic 1000 inch sets and not a very good set. She had paid over three hundred sixty dollars for that set

through credit and through the raised prices. Yes. Now obviously those kinds of practices. I just cannot condone and wouldn't have let me say yes and perhaps to some degree that creates a kind of cynicism. We do have legitimate merchants in the city of usury who have have been this year again more than ever before have become involved in city government that is in terms of contributions helping support that kind of thing but I talked to the Garrick I want to quote I was invited over to speak to them and I told them some of the same things we're talking about today and this is a couple of years ago and there are many many people who are angry and hostile because I said these things now maybe you have turned us around well let me say that I think you ought to visit today because I think that you will find among especially among many of the merchants a different attitude. You really think you've turned them around. I don't not saying that I turned around but there is a different attitude I'm saying that they

recognize their own self-interest. I think this can and has just mentioned here that if Gary goes as a city if it deteriorates and declines and they lose there they're out of business that's very clear and so they have a real real interest and a real stake and I think also that one thing again and it's difficult to say something like this but I think a community whether you're talking about the business community whether you're talking about the major corporations industry. Community requires some kind of inspiration and imagination. They have to have proposals that excite them and attract them and that applies to the gadol as well as any other part of the city and having some evidence of visible brother. That's true and one of the things that we have tried to do this year is to be innovative and to be imaginative and to be willing to make a kind of laboratory and again I say not out of any original ideas that I might have but we've

been willing to listen to people from all over the country people who have ideas that they think might work that might meet some of these problems. And I think when you get a number of things programs and things of that nature underway that this tends to attract people especially business people and other individuals in the final analysis to have some basic feelings of decency and I think well let's talk about can you do to come back to going forward made. For. How can you do that. Being seen as a successful member of the establishment able to communicate with the establishment leaders and not at the same time alienate some of the more extreme black militants who in your campaign you were accused of being a part of the USA. Yes but I think that that's a good question I remember when I first took office.

Someone as a reporter asked the question well how do the militants feel about you. And you know the people that are in your administration and I told the reporter facetiously partially facetiously that we were the militants in Gary and so that we had we didn't have a problem. But the fact is obviously that any administration that attempts to address itself to the problem and to find solutions is going to find itself in disagreement with individuals in the community I don't think there's any question about that. What I have tried to maintain though as a kind of guideline is that I've tried to maintain my integrity not in terms I'm not talking about accepting money or anything like that I try to maintain integrity in that sense too but I mean in terms of being true and faithful to poor people in that community to people who are in need and people who have suffered in that community and to try to try to do those things. Try to do those things that represented keeping the faith with them.

Let me ask you this question about this in Gary you have in the heart of Midtown you've long had a factory that kills and plucks chickens and a lot of it's right in the middle of the worst slum and the people there who owns that blacks whites obviously. All right. Who does it supply. Supplies really the whole city and outside the city. They go into the supermarkets that I buy in Illinois. That's right. And and. This is an industry that could be done on a cooperative basis with black money couldn't it. Well I think that it could yes. Yes I don't think there's any question there are many things like white Why isn't black competition here is something that could be done. I know maybe we heard Are you suggesting. That one way of stabilizing the ghetto is to ghettoize Its I'm sorry no I'm not trying to stabilize a ghetto I'm saying that we need to bring in industry and here is an industry that is run by whites it's owned by whites and it supplies whites my chickens on my

white table come from table a white tablecloth whichever it may be come from from the black community. They have been cleaned and blocked in Gary now as long as this is a necessary service and as long as Gary Blacks I'm not saying that we should maintain this sort of thing that the black should forever be sitting there pulling the feathers off the chickens and it's on the very end is that it certainly is and it's a horrible just it is a lot of people in town who are constructively employed are working in this area at a very minimal wage are paid underpaid and everything else but I'm still saying that couldn't the black community take over some kind of industry I'm not perpetuating this thing couldn't they to do this sort of thing as long as these people have no skills they need income. Yes. Couldn't free enterprise be blacke free enterprise and solve this problem. Well we are course interested in black capitalism in fact we have a program now under way and just started this year that. Is seeking to create black entrepreneurship so we're trying to get into sub contracting

U.S. Steel is one another example spends millions of dollars in buying certain materials that they have to have in order to produce steel parts and other supplies outside the city of Gary. Now if it were possible to get U.S. steel to agree to commit itself to purchasing those supplies from a company that could be created in Gary set up in Gary if we could get that kind of prior commitment then we have a ready made industry that could be black on black control and could employ large numbers of black people. This is the kind of thing that we are certainly right are opening up credit blown up in July and I will do everything absolutely. Yes and that's why in our effort to set this program up we are involving bankers we are involving mortgage lenders we're involving every sector of the economy that participates in this kind of this is going to have a plan for providing technical assistance.

Absolutely yes. And yes provide Yes of course for exactly. Yes yes in fact there was a meeting. You know Baltimore has a rather and with respect to the rest of the country is advanced in this respect in that it does have a program and entrepreneurship ship program already underway been Goldstein has been sort of the guiding light there. You know he's been to Gary about four times at least this year already helping us to set up this this kind of a black casualties into something outside of our before you lead into it. I'm fascinated by the fact that you are putting most of your thrust. And the questions and comments with steak on increasing the. Viability and the effectiveness of the black poor. I'd like to ask before we move to another topic. What are your plans in terms of the white put it all we keep forgetting. In America. Let's say of the 30 million.

Americans be LOL the only old rather conservative poverty line level. 20 million of those Americans are white and I suspect if you don't have all. Affluent blue collar and white white collar people in your area there must be some poor whites. Yes. What are you as a negro mare doing in terms of the problems of the poor parts. Let me say it's rather interesting. As I indicated we've created a new public housing or low income housing this year. First time a very long time. A number of those units are occupied by whites by poor whites. We just yesterday I went through a program that is under way in Gary at manpower development training program where skills and I was really impressed. Medical skills office secretarial skills all kinds of skills are taught. And

this is under another program that got under way and Gary this year and I was really surprised at the number of whites who were in those classes and who were participating who were particular participating in this program. Gary has a substantial Latin population of Mexicans Puerto Ricans and other. President is speaking people and they are participating to a very large degree in many of these programs that we have underway. We made it very clear that poverty has no there is no color line. A larger percentage of black people find themselves trapped in poverty than any other racial group but the fact is as you pointed out that numerically that whites outnumber blacks and in terms of poverty in this country so these programs My feeling is that if it's a program that will help a poor person then it's going to help black and white alike in the city of Gary and you also but if it is

presented as if it's primarily if not exclusively for Negroes. Does this not increase the chances of the poor whites avoiding it. How you would try to a program geared to uplifting about the status of poor people obviously not being exclusively black. Yes I think there has to be some outreach and I think you have to make it clear as I said in presenting the program that everyone is welcome and that they ought to take advantage of it. I think though that they I don't want to be that is that everybody I mean you were very. Institutions of higher learning. Yes said look we we don't have any racial. Yes. They rose our. Welcome. And the hardest thing for the last year or two before it became fashionable to recruit. Girls. Yet through all levels of. Education. The hardest thing to get over to administrator is was that you just can't say yet that it's open and I agree that given the history

of past exclusion. You must engage in aggressive recruitment. Yes. Is there not a need for some similar. Yes and I think that I think that does take place and I think you're perfectly right you can't just say we have a fine program here everyone come. I think you have to go out and let people know specifically and individually that the program is for them as well as anyone else. And that kind of thing is under way. My concern is that I don't I don't want to get caught in the trap of being so concerned about a kind of broad application that the rest of the deprivation that has existed in the past does not really receive the kind of that it deserves. And so that's why obviously we have tried to make certain that people who have not had the opportunity before who have suffered as as a result of discrimination before they try to make certain that they

understand those programs are open to them and that they are able to participate. Can I go there. The other account which was you were commenting on how you had been to Baltimore and how the gentleman from Baltimore had been in Gary. You have been criticized by your opponents and certainly with a small margin that you have one bar you have substantial number of those who oppose you. Yet you're criticized for galavanting around the country you're an absentee mayor and all of that and I I think it's a value to find out what you're doing while you're out and what you're learning and who you're bringing in. Well I think speaking generally of criticisms Generally I have to recognize I guess as well as anyone else that I became mayor of that city under circumstances where almost one half of the people there did not want to see me be mayor so that I think you have to begin at that point and can understand then I do and I go out of the city a great deal and that is true. And I really have no apology forward because the bulk of my

travels have been involved in trying to get money technical assistance and aid for the city and for the people of Gary so I have no apologies for it. I do not like Mary Daly and you can't pick up the phone and talk. Say I'm not like Mayor Daley in many respects. I have. This year we've seen some 30 million plus dollars flow into the city of Gary from federal programs and private foundations now. Obviously that is a fantastic increase over all the other ministrations of the city of Gary combined in the past so I have no apologies for that Secondly. I've talked to individuals like Lindsay and old Mary on the old hill you know San Francisco and other mayors around the kind of country middle Sandro in Baltimore they have the same problem they get the same criticism of the ballerina out of town all the time and not be in the city. Actually in terms of the

the number I have the kind of double problem. With respect to invitations do you have to understand that during my campaign for that office there were many individuals around the country many organizations that helped us that did do that raise to help fund raising events in New York City and in other places around the country and subsequently after we were fortunate enough to be successful. Then of course there were requests from some of the same individuals and same organizations to come in and speak and to talk about their experience in Gary. So while we turn down about 99 percent of the requests we have to honor some it just seems to me that as a matter of common decency we have to honor something. Furthermore I think an important point is for instance we now have a storefront police headquarters programming. That idea came directly from a visit that I paid to the city of Baltimore there are many other ideas we picked up around the country as we have go

on. Were going to say that if you were the size for visiting and expanding Lee opportunities that the resources would carry would be just as easy to be criticized for being too parochial. That's right and not why slating Gary. Yes indeed. I would like to ask you a. QUESTION That's rather general. Why don't we are. Exploring specific problem areas. Given this first year of. Rather challenging and clearly exciting including the criticisms you have must be writing. 10 years. There. And I'm fascinated that you tend to minimize the. Role of being black in this first year away but as the mayor of a middle sized city in the United States industrial city. Are you generally optimistic or pessimistic about the few true American cities.

Well let me say that based upon my experience this year I remain optimistic about the future of American cities. And I say that with great reservation and great hesitation but their problems are their problem and they are terribly complex. But as I said initially I think I think they are manageable. I think given the kind of commitment that is necessary on the federal level given the kind of commitment that is necessary nationally the feel that people have about cities and what cities are all about. I think that the problems of the city can be met and can be resolved. They know certain that we will always have problems I'm sure but the problems can be can be managed. We don't have to preside over the deterioration of what it is that that is not my intention at least in the city of Gary. I think there is much to be optimistic about. For one thing we are beginning to recognize finally that.

The great myth of the suburbs the idea that life is all sweetness and light in the suburbs. People I think are beginning to realize that that is precisely nothing more than a myth that there are some serious problems involved in living. For instance a great distance from their place of employment the whole problem of metropolitan transportation. There are other problems that are too numerous to mention. The fact is the city the city someone has put it regionally and cities are where the action are. That's where people are close enough together to react and interact with each other and that's really what I think makes makes life worth worthwhile. So it seems to me it's very important that we maintain our cities and that we upgrade them obviously cities are going to change I think the structure of cities are going to change anger from change toward much of all of the station or all I think in some areas that's going to be

absolutely necessary just versus we can I clean the air over Gary and then not worry about the air. Across the just across the city limits. So obviously in some areas. The move towards metropolitan concern if I might put it that way is going to accelerate. There are some things about a city blowout that I think ought to and which it ought to maintain its autonomy. Obviously one of the mechanisms that are being used in my opinion in recent years is to dilute black the growing black political strength in cities. Is this idea of annexation the move to metropolitan government the political change in the structure of the government. I believe Jacksonville Florida is perhaps an example example of that. So I think to some degree I think black people who are just beginning to

understand the extent and degree of their power in cities ought to be very careful that on the other hand you see welfare as something which will absolutely yes. Yes aw that's why I say I you know I can't give a blanket endorsement to the idea of expanding beyond the city limits but I think you have to be somewhat selective Metropolit is a that's right nationalization of those present. That's right I think shims. But the maintenance of certain yet types of functions as a specific responsibility of the owners Exactly and I might say one other thing you mentioned. The fact that I did not consider the fact of my blackness to be a serious problem and that in this first year I don't want to minimize that reading because there it has played a role on both sides it has played a role in that. Yes there have been some very negative reactions on the part of citizens and so on. This year simply because of

that and I recognize and I try to be honest about it. On the other hand it is played another old tool it has presented a great opportunity that I'm sure that other mayors have not had as as a result of that so maybe we should talk to Carl Stokes to see how I think that's a stretch this is a very good idea for March brings forward. Thank you.