Say Brother; Stokely Carmichael; 13

Good evening ladies and gentlemen welcome to our show this evening. We have in our studios Mr. Stokely Carmichael who will share some ideas with us on the international implications of black power. I am your host and moderator Heyward Henry to my left is Mrs. Andrea Koch some a reporter from The Boston Globe. And to her left is Mr. Lestrange a reporter from The Christian Science Monitor. Mr. Carmichael is with us this evening after he has just returned from a trip where black writers held a conference on the continuing dynamics of the black liberation struggle. At that conference some very interesting and provocative political process seize apparently in America. We've been informed that one of the participants a brother Dr. Walter Rodney has been excluded from return to his homeland. Brother Carmichael What do you see as the implications of such political like Tiffany's in decisions by governments as if that just made affecting brother Rodney. Well I think we have to understand that that's really the United States

and United States has now developed a new technique. Recognizing the danger of black people around the world coming together the United States has decided that she must break up this process without appearing as if she's doing it because if she were to appear as if she was herself doing it it would only heighten the contradictions. So now what she is doing is that the countries that she controls. She's telling them to bar people who were born there from returning. For example in Jamaica the Caribbean and the latest spot is the Caribbean the United States has done is all over Africa. But now because of a lot of work that we've been doing quietly in the Caribbean which is now beginning to surface. She's moving very directly in the Caribbean Jamaica the literature of Malcolm X the literature of fans for none of the literature of Elijah Mohammed in the literature of Stokely Carmichael is banned the literature that is any books written by any of these people cannot.

We brought into the country and this is clearly not the workings of the masses of Jamaican people because all of the people listed are black people talking about the black liberation struggle in the world and they have not made any offenses either physical or verbal against these governments. So there clearly it is the United States moving to block any of this literature or any of these people from entering. Now the case in point of a Dr. Walter Rodney's very important as a brother was born in Jamaica. It's been all over the world very together brother. He taught at the University of 10s in India where we met it after Tanzanian returned to America last year. He was teaching at the University of the West Indies in Jamaica and he's been there quietly. He left five days ago and came to the conference in Montreal which was a very explosive conference in terms of the international black people that came together. And when he returned to Jamaica they

deported him. And certainly he has made no nothing against the Jamaican government. You take my point in view. My own homeland where I was born Trinidad. I am barred from Trinidad and again I have made no offenses against a Trinidadian government. It's clearly against the United States afraid of the dynasty dynamism of black power. Getting whole in those islands and knocking out the control that the American imperialists have over the Caribbean. Are you saying then that it is the official or and or unofficial policy of the United States government to take specific steps to prevent the spread of black power in other black nations. I'm saying that precisely Yes in this country here its object has been to co-opt the Black Power slogan to have the people think that you can have black power and black capitalism work hand in hand which is absolutely absurd and nonsensical. It is a way to dilute the definitions and to confuse the masses of people

and to completely corrupt the political ideology of black power. But sensing that around the world other people are now beginning black people to look towards black power. Its aim is to cut those international ties. I'm saying precisely and I charge United States with that. Yes. For example I cannot travel to England. I cannot travel to Venezuela. I cannot travel to Trinidad. I cannot travel to Jamaica. I cannot travel to the Bahamas. I cannot travel to Argentina and I have done nothing against any of these countries. What do you interpret as the specific reason for the action taken against brother Rodney. Your link it was because of his association with this particular conference. It's clearly because of that association you see because this conference brought together people from the West Indies people from Africa people from Canada people from the United States and people from South America. All these people were black. And we were all talking about international izing the concept of Black Power and moving concretely to begin to find

bases where black people can begin to hang their heads. This causes and spells trouble for the United States therefore it must move against this type of work. Brother Carmichael Are there other black political refugees in this country such as Rap Brown and others who have spoken out. Yes I think that the United States is moving on to battles on two fronts. For example when I returned to the country last year the United States illegally seized my passport and held it for eight months. It had no grounds for which to take my passport. I traveled to Cuba I traveled to North Vietnam. I traveled to Algeria to Syria to Egypt and to China. All of these countries. One is forbidden to use your passport for entry. See the passport said that this document is invalid to use this document to travel into Cuba North Vietnam China and the list of countries. I never used the passport to travel into Cuba into Vietnam into China or anywhere. I was

invited by some people in those countries and I went and I didn't have to have it stamped so that they had no right to take my passport. But because the United States is afraid and more and more because a lot of us are traveling abroad and beginning to hook in internationally she cannot afford to have that. She sees the passport now politically it wasn't very well it didn't go very well with the United States to talk about freedom of travel and still sees my passport. So after a number of maneuvers back and forth they had to return the passport. But now the aim is to appear as if they have given me a passport. But to stop other countries. Where the potential of black power can become a reality which will affect American imperialism not only is racism but American imperialism it now moves to stop. Now what it does then is moves on two fronts. The second front is that one the way it moves with wraparound Eldridge Cleaver and Roy Jones by making them political refugees where they cannot move. For example Rob Rand is the only black man in America that lives in Manhattan and needs a visa to

travel to problems and does apply even within the United States even within the United States and the United States employs this around the world. There are hundreds of thousands I would say even millions of black political refugees around the world. And we become political refugees we have absolutely nothing to do with the political struggles or go on the political struggles or white political struggles but their white political struggles over the control of black people and we get caught in the middle. Every time there's a coup in an African country which is brought about by white Western imperialist forces then thousands of black people have to run. But again no one wins because the people who come out on top is white people. Let us take the Congo as a specific example in the Congo you had Mobutu and the Moomba. When the white imperialist forces killed them over it would shove a few tens of thousands of black people living in the Congo had to flee the Congo looking for political refuge in the surrounding countries.

When Mobutu is when somebody is overthrown the other thousands have to flee. And again the we're always fleeing but we get nothing we get nothing because the people who control these puppets like Shammi and the others in Ankara who's now in Ghana and thousands of people had to flee when Dr increment was overthrown. Other white forces that control the wealth that we still have to be running around. My wife is a political refugee from our own country born and bred in South Africa. Some white invaders come and kick black people out of their land and tell them they cannot return. We have thousands of political refugees from South Africa Mozambique Angola South West Africa Guinea-Bissau all of Africa is just flooding where black political refugees and now the United States is planning to move it into the Caribbean and then the final step of course into the United States. What rather comical will will be attempt to. Create political refugees black political refugees do anything

to end this. An international movement towards black power like this because I think that's precisely what the United States is trying to do. For example if she could forestall or hold back the people who see things are a threat to her economy in Jamaica then she can just cut us out completely. And we cannot go in so she hopes to forestall the black liberation struggle which is really on its peak. We're living in five point. It will be effective Yes unless black people now begin to understand how to move to stop that. Now what happens unfortunately is that again the white man comes out on top because for example the Caribbean islands islands which black political refugees and people who are concerned about the masses of people living in those islands. We do not want to move against the black. Other black people. But what will happen is that we will be forced because the Caribbean opens itself to a very precarious position. Most of these islands in the Caribbean for

example for the tourist business to begin to start political refugees from entering opens up a course for student riding and certainly terroristic activities against the tourist industries. How do you specifically recommend that the black American with his new awareness of the international nature of the struggle. How specifically do we move to effectively counteract or neutralize the kind of political isolation that is occurring. OK number one there are a lot with number one we have to understand how the white West moves. It is clear that whenever they want control of a country they can no longer just invade the country. So what they have to do is to pit person against person. That's been a technique developed since World War Two with the white imperialist forces for example. They split Korea. There's North Korea fighting South Korea and they're not invading. They're coming to help the South Koreans beat up the bad guys because they're the good guys. They split North Vietnam against South Vietnam and they're not invading but they're coming to help the good guys in South

Vietnam beat up the bad guys in North Vietnam and now we see they've done the same thing in Nigeria. They have split again now there's be Africa vs. Nigeria and they're not going to be invading with age is going to come and help the good guys whichever they decide happen to be the good guys. Of course it's going to be with their interest. So we must begin to consciously recognize this so that we can be out there taking sides with Nigeria and taken sides with the Africa but rather talking about these two people getting together and stop fighting because nobody's profiting. But the white men because of fighting by the African Nigeria while heightened certainly by tribal tribalistic different differences thank you English tribalistic differences. Tribalistic differences certainly is not really the sole context of the fight. The AFR is very rich in oil and since the Arab countries are close they are opposed to the conflict in the Middle East.

It would be very helpful for practically every white country in Europe to be able to get to their oil rather Carmichael it seems that the same kind of process is happening in many of the South American nations today in which the United States is economically and politically controlling them. How do you compare the attempt by many of the Asian and African nations to engage in liberation struggles as opposed to those in Latin America. I don't I think we are going to there's no alternative. I think that in terms of the Asian situation it's clear it's crystal clear The United States controls completely Japan. Japan is as far as I'm concerned yellow America and through our control of Japan she's trying to stretch out the tentacles to influence the rest of Asia. Thank god Vietnam is stopping us because Vietnam really represents a real block to what she wants to get to China now in Latin America the only block the faddish Cuba but Cuba is not really a military threat. There's only a political threat. It's an island which they have to fight the political ideas

because the political ideas of the Cuban revolutionaries might spread to two of the other Latin American countries. But other than that there is no threat. Now the next part left obviously is Africa and Africa becomes central because of black people who are aware becoming aware to a political consciousness begin to hook up with Africa inside America then America becomes a lot of trouble because if for example America decided to invade South Africa decided to invade Haiti decided to invade Trinidad decided to invade Tobago Jamaica on the side of the good guys then the black people in this country could stand up and say Keep your hands off of it it's a black man's fight stay out. And if she refuses to then she has another war inside. Is there any attempt going on now to get this kind of political awareness for black people in America. For the total. Picture of the struggle. Oh yes the national yes while the United States has been busy trying to dilute the concept of black power and make it look as if it's a local nonsense some of us have been internationalize ing

it because black power cannot be seen in a local aspect of black power in Boston or black power in Roxbury or black power in the United States or black power in Canada of black power in the West and it has to be seen in black power in the world. It must be seen in that context where the early black political refugees from this country was Robert Williams. Do you know where he is at this time and what political activities here in Mr. Williams was in Chinese now in Tanzania and he's working with the people who are setting up the new republic of Africa inside this country he is the leader of that group and they're themselves are now trying together and band together with a number of other political refugees for example Tanzania is just loaded with political refugees because it's right on the border of Mozambique and see all of the people who flee from the harsh treatment of the Portuguese or even the brothers and sisters who get a chance to flee from South Africa soon

as they run up they always go right into Tanzania. What is your opinion about the attempt being made to establish the Republic of New Africa. If you had a chance to meet yet with any of the brothers and sisters involved no I haven't had a chance to really have a serious talk at it I think it's that another area where people are thriving and that we should try each in our own area to see which one works best. I don't know very much about it but I think that the people who are serious about what they are doing and we have to which we can aid it in any way we can to make it a successful program. Look where we are be in a term to help. I want to run the return to America. It's now as I said earlier see what the West Indies now does is opens itself for really terroristic activities. Because if it bans water Ronnie from returning to Jamaica and already student rioting has begun in Jamaica Internet had early this morning when there's nothing left except to begin that terroristic activity against

the U.S. You don't want to play into the white man's hands by fighting black people against black people because that's precisely what he wants. I mean that's why they have been creating all the friction inside the United States with this black group against that black group hoping to heighten. The friction within black groups so that we can arm and fight ourselves while they said back conquering the right so we cannot allow to play into the hands at this time we must de-emphasize any certainly publicly political friction we have with any other black group inside our communities. We must because they will play on that and I know it. Now we recognize that's precisely what they want in Jamaica. But the way to move against them in a terroristic activity destroying any sort of a terrorist activities will bring the economy in those countries to a screeching halt. Also for example in Jamaica America has a large box like companies when people will begin to develop a consciousness not to move against other black people but to move against old box like companies because we recognise who the enemy is.

Imperialism at home and imperialism abroad. Part of the same continual process Croom is when it gets capitalism when it's international it's imperialism. So the black man is international as whether we like it or not so it must be imperialism. You mention brother Carmichael that your wife is a political refugee from South Africa. What efforts are being made to liberate black South Africans. Well there are several guerrilla groups that's the only effort that can be made and that for example in Africa there are lot of fighting that's going on but the white man never will never talk about that fighting because he's afraid that it will heighten the political consciousness of Africans living inside the United States. He will talk about the BFM war and try and begin to show some nonsensical pity about black people starving in the AFR that's nonsense. No white man is ever concerned about black people starving and dying. And certainly Lyndon Baines Johnson is not concerned. Kennedy is not concerned. Nixon is not concerned. Humphrys

not concerned none of them are concerned because inside their own country thousands of black people die each year starving to death. So they're not concerned. They're only doing that because of their own political interest. The only way that we will free anywhere in Africa. The only way we're free anywhere is with a gun in our hands. All those countries must be freed by guns by arms. The white man didn't go into those countries with the nonviolent means. He doesn't oppress people in South Africa with nonviolence you oppresses them with the guns. It's our job to begin to raise our consciousness so we can raise money and help those brothers get some guns and kill every white man they see in South Africa. Brother Carmichael I what is your particular opinion about the unusually large number of black men fighting in Vietnam ostensibly a war which is not in the interest of black people and a war which is obviously a racist war. Well I think we've been crystal clear on that. But we said very simple long time ago Hell no we won't go. I mean I think everyone knows what the position is. There's no

need now to reiterate it time is to move to find trying get some type of tactics. There will begin to will alleviate the drafting of young black men. And certainly if one cannot avoid the draft then one should. Should go in kill the enemy. How do you interpret the recent action of the brothers in Fort Hood Texas who refused to come to the Democratic National Convention. Understanding that they may possibly have to destroy black people I applauded the action I thought it was very courageous and it shows that black people are heightening their consciousness regardless of what they say on the press. Do you think this is a beginning then of a kind of internal resistance by black people in the situation where they would normally have to destroy black people. Right it must be can it must spread must then it will spread. There's no way to stop it. It will spread. I think something many black people in America have been interested in is how Africans feel towards them. Can you tell us something about that. Well you should ask my wife she said. I think we can afford to get caught up in what the white man says about Africans don't like African

Americans that's a white man talking. I've been all over Africa and everywhere I've been to Africa including Liberia I have been welcomed with open arms by thousands of people. Will there be a follow up to the Congress of Black Riders where black political refugees will get together and discuss new techniques and new tactics. Or there will be yes there has to be. But I think it's also important for our brothers and sisters in the United States to begin to become aware now let me show you for example the so called State of Israel gets thousands of dollars in aid and sells jets to America sells jets to them. And that's because of the foul full powerful force of Zionism in the United States where they wage a lobby for the so-called state of Israel. Now we black people have it seems to me a stake in this country since US will build it. Therefore we should say if X person wants to come to this country he can come. And we have to build a political For example we don't know when they expel African students they expel African students from this

country. Just like that and we're never aware of it. But certainly it must become our job to find out against that when they start to begin to try. Now we begin to use means to stop but to stop and begin to. If money is going to go let's get some of that money. You know Brother Carmichael in your book Black Power the politics of liberation. You had some specific opinions about coalition politics and about why such coalitions have not worked to the advantage of black people. What do you see as new kinds of coalitions force in the future. International izing our ties with other black people around the world. That's the coalition we have to work for now because there have been black people who have made the mistake in the past it seems to me of coalescing with so-called wide radical groups without ensuring that those wide radical groups would wage a fight against racism. Done that in the past. Time and time again. So you're saying this should have been evidence of the extent to which any such parties is

committed. If we're writing coalition right and it cannot just be in terms of words it must be in terms of actions do you think that there's anything in particular that we can learn from the experiences of two boys and Garvey and Malcolm X who also attempted to internationalize the movement. I think that we have to we well I think we definitely have to follow in their footsteps. Definitely. And that's a rhetorical question. So you're the moderator you can't say. Well brother Carmichael it's certainly been our pleasure to have had you with us in the studios today. We think that certainly the discussion which we've had is a very crucial one a very important one. We will certainly be looking forward to hearing more from you on this particular subject. Ladies and gentlemen of the Press thank you for having come. Welcome.