Education and Race Relations; The Negro Child and The School; 5

Professor Thomas Phedre group of the department of social relations of Harvard University will continue with his discussions and at this at this particular session you will focus on the negro child and the school. You will describe what constitutes an effective integrated environment and will point up some ingredients necessary to achieve such a learning environment. Dr. Pettigrew. Was a small negro boy came regularly to play therapy sessions each week he entered the play room sat at a table propped back his chair placed his feet upon the table and then folded his arms majestically over his chest. Week after week the child came to the play room repeated the performance and sat with an impassive expression upon his face until the session ended. Finally he asked the therapist if she knew what he'd been playing. Eagerly she confessed she had no idea. I've been playing white man he announced. Now this incident actually illustrates the translation of racism in our society

into personal terms. The effects of racial discrimination upon the individual and they grow. But discrimination does not affect all Negroes in the same way. There are of course as many Negro American personalities as there are a Negro Americans for each individual has his own unique personality shaped by his special endowments and experiences. But the ubiquity of racial prejudice in the United States guarantees that virtually every Negro American face is at some level the effects of discrimination. The frightening feeling of being a black man in white often appears to him to be a white man's world. Now one way to characterize this situation is in terms of role playing a subject that receives fuller treatment in a later lecture of this television series by Dr jean Grand's. Like all human interactions discriminatory encounters between whites and negroes require that both parties play the game as the

small negro boy at the play sessions astutely recognize the white must act the role of the superior by direct action or subtle cue he must convey the expectation that he will be treated with deference for his part. The Negro must if race is norms are to be obeyed. Act out the role of the inferior he must play the social role of Negro and if he should refuse to play the game he would be judged by the white supremacists as not knowing his place and harsh sanctions could follow. Another socially stigmatized role of Negro is the critical feature of having dark skin in the United States at the personality level. Such enforced role adoption divides the individual and they grow both from other human beings and from himself. Of course all social roles necessary as they are hindered to some extent forthright uninhibited social interaction an employee an employer or a principal and teacher

may never begin to understand each other as complete human beings unless they break through the formality and constraints of their role relationship unless as we say they let their hair down. Likewise whites and Negroes can never communicate as equals unless they break through the verbal barriers. As long as racial roles are maintain both parties find it difficult to perceive the humanity behind the facade. Many whites who are by no means racist confuse the role of negro with the people who must play this role. Negroes are just like that they are born that way. Goes the phrase. Conversely many negroes confuse the role of white man with whites. Do you just like that they're born thinking they should be Boss goes the expression intimately associated with this impairment of human relatedness is an impairment of the individual's acceptance and understanding of himself both whites and Negroes can confuse their own

roles as being an essential part of themselves. Whites can flatter themselves into the conviction that they are in fact superior after all doesn't the differential behavior the role playing negro confirm the supposed superiority and negroes in turn often accept much of the racist mythology. Doesn't the imperious behavior of the role playing white confirm the supposed inferiority. These are not mere speculations. A large body of psychological research convincingly demonstrates the power of role playing to change deeply held attitudes values and even conceptions of self and these remarkable changes have been rendered by temporary role adoptions in a laboratory of an exceedingly trivial nature when compared to the lifelong role of Negro. Imagine the depth of the effects of having to play a role which has such vast personal and social significance that it

influences virtually all aspects of daily living. Indeed it results in confusion of self-identity and lowering of self-esteem. Two of the most serious marks of oppression upon Negro American personality. Now the quest for self identity. The search for answers to the all important questions. Who am I. What am I like as a person. And how do I fit into this world. These are not easy questions for anyone to answer in our complex swiftly changing society of course if they offer even greater difficulties for young Negro Americans we learn who we are and what we are like. Largely by carefully observing how other people react to us. But this process is highly structured for the negro chyle by the role he is expected to play when he attempts to gain an image of himself on the basis of his typical contacts with white America and the general culture. He often receives a rude jolt while he is totally American in every conceivable meaning of the term. He

finds that most Americans are white and that somehow the mere color of his skin puts him into a unique and socially defined inferior category. And when the negro child looks around him say for athletics and entertainment he discovers very few Americans with his skin color who hold important positions in his society. And except for the mass media expressly tailored for Negro audiences he virtually sees only white models in advertisements. White says heroes Rose stories and whites as the important captains of his nation. Little wonder then that the question who in my race has special difficulties for the negro child. Now these are the special personality problems that racism in America has created for the negro child. How can the school alleviate these racial scars. Well clearly the segregated school with lower standards the type of education still provided for

many Negro children in both the north and south is not and cannot be the answer. Indeed the only Negro school of low quality as importantly contributed to the personality marks of oppression just described and the current racial crisis in our nation. Now to be sure public education can hardly be held solely responsible for the special problems of Negro Americans limited educational opportunities only a part though a critical part of the complex Cely in a woven vicious circle. That narrows the negroes life chances at every turn. Low income high unemployment poor health care inadequate housing ghetto living broken family life etc.. Now this point is relevant to related claims that obscure the real issues. Undergirding educational considerations of race. Ignoring the negroes Lineen environment racist. I've made a recent resurgence

with their claims of innate negro inferiority. Thirty years of solid evidence however makes it possible to state that these claims certainly have no scientific validity whatsoever. A related claim also attempts to relieve the schools of all responsibility for lowered negro performance. It maintains that formal instruction is simply powerless to overcome the enormous deficits which many Negro children bring to the school situation like lowered motivation and poor speech patterns and so forth. Now this claim too is called into serious question. As soon as one inspects the astonishing improvements in negro performance made by truly imaginative school systems but this is not to deny or minimize the real deficits which many Negro children have impoverished backgrounds do in fact suffer the job is difficult for any school system. And most of the problems are certainly not the making of the schools

but American public education has often been called on to tackle difficult problems that were not solely of its making. And it appears that when approached with good faith rich imagination and full willingness to rise innovatively to this latest challenge the nation's schools can meet this vital educational problem successfully too. Now the first order of business course is the elimination of both the jury and defacto segregation of schools coupled with massive compensatory training not merely balancing the schools without attention to the lower standards and achievement typically found in predominantly Negro schools is obviously thought with serious difficulties. Racial balance is one among many requirements of a first rate public education in a multiracial society and world. But it alone does not guarantee educational excellence. Likewise compensatory measures and the upgrading of standards in predominantly Negro schools are not enough

either without also correcting the basic conditions which helped to create the need for these measures in the first place. High on the list of factors contributing to the present situation is racial separation and discrimination. Thus it makes no sense to correct past educational damage while allowing further damage to occur. In short we need both in the racial education and compensatory training judiciously information. We need a swift and massive expansion of educational opportunities for Negro Americans. The fact is unless such an expansion occurs soon throughout the whole nation educational deficiencies will seriously impair the Negro Americans ability to keep up with much less gain on the employment upgrading required by automation. Now another aspect of the racial role playing we've just discussed is how can Negro and white children ever learn their respective racial roles unless they encounter one

another as equals at school. Negro children need to shake off the assumed negro role of inferiority and white children too need to shake off the assumed white role of superiority. Both must learn a new nonracial third row of equal citizen both can thereby gain a clear answer to that Poynting identity Querrey of who am I. But how can these educational processes take place as long as the children remain separate it matters little whether the segregation is enforced by law or discriminatory housing patterns. The effect is the same. Negro and white children grow up looking at the world through race colored glasses are still another consideration involves the multiracial world of the future the past generation in world history has witnessed a series of remarkable changes but none surely more remarkable than the mass destruction of barriers to intergroup contact the global scale of World War and the end of

colonialism the expansion of literacy the speed of urbanization the scope of mass migrations the growth of rapid transportation and the proliferation of the mass media. These and other interrelated processes have led in recent years to more close contact across class cultural racial religious regional and national lines than ever dreamed of in the past. Now there is no reason to anticipate that the sweeping change will abate rather there's every reason to expect that the world will witness in the future a continuation even an acceleration of this trend toward group heterogeneity in the United States for example title 7 of the 1964 Civil Rights Act outlaws discrimination in employment. And it seems destined to achieve an interracial workforce such as we have never previously witnessed. Now this means that the children Negro and white in school today will be expected to perform well as adults in

interracial work situations. We know from the psychology laboratory that the more comparable the learning and later performance situations the better the retention and performance. If school children today are to perform harmoniously and effectively in the interracial work situations up tomorrow then they must learn to perform harmoniously and effectively in interracial classrooms. Now not granting it's benefits for both white and Negro children much of the debate surrounding school desegregation has revolved around the practical question of how it can racially balanced education actually be implemented. Now the precise answer must vary greatly with the particular community of course but there is a wide variety of devices from which a combination plan can be custom style for each school system. Now these devices include first the district wide redrawing of school lines to

maximize racial balance. You might call this positive gerrymandering. Second idea is the pairing of predominately white and Negro schools along the borders of the negro ghetto. The so-called Princeton plan a third arrangement for desegregation Voelz the alternation alteration rather of feeder arrangements from elementary grades to junior highs and from junior highs to senior highs in order to maximize racial balance. You might call this the balanced feeder plan a fourth way to give a priority for an careful placement of new and typically larger schools near but not within the ghetto. You might call this the rebuilding plan by the conversion of more schools into district wide specialized institutions that specialized school plain 6. The establishment of broad educational centers covering many levels and

programs the so-called campus parks and seven subsidized transportation of students so-called bussing. Now a considerable controversy has resulted from the use of the spinal device. Indeed much of the public seems unaware of the significant amount of desegregation that can be achieved by the first six devices without even resorting to subsidized transportation. Only in the largest metropolitan cities will extensive subsidized transportation be necessary to achieve significant desegregation. Now I notice that so-called open enrollment policies haven't even been listed here as an effective desegregation device. That's because it's not effective just because the open enrollment plans place the initiative the burden and the expense upon negro parents and they affect only small numbers. Now successful plans utilizing these seven

devices I mentioned and not relying upon open enrollment often characterized by additional features desegregation plans for large urban districts ideally involve the cooperation of suburban school districts whose problems are not nearly so great. And any effective plan should include the racial balancing of teachers staffs as well as student bodies for Negro children to need models of authority and achievement with whom they can readily identify. Moreover effective plans include various social class and grade levels for it is so useful if unfortunate rule of thumb that those children who most need racially balanced education are the hardest to desegregate in any plan for a variety of reasons. Lower status negroes who generally live deepest within the ghetto and elementary school children whose schools are most tied to the neighborhood have the greatest need for racially balanced training. This means that desegregation plans must be

careful to include broader representation than just the easier to obtain middle class Negro and upper grade children. Finally a practical working definition of a racially balanced school is one in which the Negro students comprise roughly 20 to 45 percent of the student body. Now I mention of the difficulty of desegregating elementary schools raises one of the key issues in this process. The concept of the neighborhood school growing out of the multiple communities ideal of city planning at the turn of the century the neighborhood school concept has assumed for many. The offer of a sacrosanct shibboleth concept not to be questioned. Instead we need considerable research thinking and open discussion on the subject. What are the real advantages and disadvantages of the neighborhood school. How can it best be modified and blended with racial desegregation pines

are desegregated school does not guarantee an integrated environment of course nor does it guarantee a good learning environment. Consequently our further question becomes how can educators achieve interracial school and classroom environments which maximize intergroup learning and acceptance social psychological research has specified the conditions toward which educators must strive. Professor Irwin Katz in an important paper which appeared in the June 1964 issue of the journal name the American psychologist has isolated four critical factors in his numerous experiments on Negro American performance in biracial situations. The first factor can be labeled the probability of success where there is marked discrepancy in the educational standards of Negro and white schools. Negro children are likely to have a lower expectancy of success when introduced into

integrated classes. This expectancy is often realistic considering the situation but it has the effect of lowering achievement motivation. The practical implication of this factor is to avoid its operation by beginning in a group instruction in the earliest grades. Social threat. The second factor refers to the fear. Negro students that they will be rejected by white classmates and teachers. A fear that is naturally detrimental to intellectual functioning. The practical implication here is that any group acceptance is necessary to fulfill the positive potential of the interracial classroom. A third factor failure threat arises when academic failure means disapproval by parents teachers perhaps even peers at school. Low expectancy of success than on their failures. That may also be detrimental to performance. But this need not always be the case. Sometimes experiences in the intergroup classroom act to dispel feelings of failure threat.

When one of the nine Negro children who are under the glare of world publicity desegregated Central High School of little rock Arkansas in 1957 was asked what she had learned from her arduous experience. She exclaimed now I know that there are some stupid white kids too. Katz also notes that acceptance of negroes by white classmates and teachers has a social facilitation effect upon their ability to learn. Apparently because it reassures Negro children that they are fully expected to be as talented and important in the classroom as anyone else. This anticipation that skillful performance will win white approval rather than the usual rejection for not knowing his place and playing the negro role. Scholastic success with high incentive value for Negro children and to increase the probability of success and to exploit this social facilitation effect while at the same time luring both social and failures. Read the

effective interracial classroom must obviously be one where there is an easy unselfconscious acceptance across racial lines. Gordon Allport in his volume the nature of prejudice has reviewed the relevant social psychological research and concludes that four characteristics of the situation are of the utmost importance. Prejudice is lessened and acceptance is enhanced when the two groups in contact one possess equal status in the situation to seek common goals three or cooperatively dependent upon each other rather than in group competition and for interact with the support of authorities custom or law. Professional baseball and football teams offer excellent examples of what interracial classrooms should strive to achieve in group relations. Negroes and whites on these teams are of equal status in this situation share the common goal of winning must depend on one another to

win and play together with the approval of their employers and their fans. To sum up public education potentially offers one of the most important vehicles in American society for enabling Negro Americans to join the nation's mainstream many Negro children have special problems related to the dignity damaging negro role and there are a number of reasons why only an interracial school can make these problems. Moreover there are a variety of method methods available to a community which sets out to desegregate its public school system. Yet a desegregated school may not necessarily provide an effective integrated environment social psychological research however reveals the specific ingredients necessary to achieve such an environment. In short the multiracial world of tomorrow demands effective multi-racial classrooms. Today.

Professor. Pettigrew. I believe you really opened up a number of avenues for our discussion in this series. Let us start with the question of. Cultural the of the. Degree of imbalance. I think you gave us a definition. How. Would a school system know that it was achieving cultural balance. You gave us some limits. What were the limits. Well. Just on the structural aspect of racial balance I would say that an ideal ideally balanced school is one where the non-whites constitute 20 to 45 percent of the student body would mean we'll have to import some negroes in some communities. I wouldn't be a bad idea actually if the children are going to be prepared for the world they face later as adults. I know there has been at least one state law. Passed recently in which the imbalance has been defined as something about 50 percent.

Above 50 percent. Well that's very close to my own we say 45 percent to my 20 percent cut off I don't mean anything rigid of course this is just to give a general idea and in testifying in courtrooms lawyers make you care very expressive definition so I've derived this for the courtroom. The 20 percent idea is that I think tokin desegregation just a few hours in. That school is not necessarily very effective one way or the other for the negroes or for the whites. And as I tried to indicate I think there's a desperate need for balance to education for the white children as well as from a good point. They're human. You have. In addition to appearing in the courts and testifying you have been working with a number of school systems and school boards. Would you give us your reaction to the wretchedness of communities school boards elected officials to cooperate. Following your major lines of

recommendations to achieve this kind of imbalance. Well it's hard to generalize. Of course I would get a selected. Group of systems to consult for the others to ask you in a very ready. No no I wouldn't say that but at least those that ask me can be in too bad faith. They wouldn't put up with me very long I suspect but they vary quite a bit. But there are some that are rather rather anxious to get on with it. There is one common theme that runs of course among them all through them all and I think probably covers every school system in the United States right now that where there are large numbers of Negro Americans in the population and that is they're under tremendous strains. I feel sorry for people on school boards and school committees of the and the particular school superintendents are undergoing these days tremendous pressure not just from integrationist but segregationist from all sorts of special interest. I think this is in some ways good for the schools to have all of this attention paid to education when he I think was

forgotten in previous generations. But on the other hand it makes for a terribly tense political situation for these people on schoolboys. I sometimes give psychotherapy as much as anything else. I particularly like your theme of the young people today are going to live in an interracial society in the world of tomorrow they have to have an interracial education today and you talked about a number of ways whereby the school could be integrated in terms of race. And yet you. Between say the hours of 8:00 in the morning and 3:00 in the afternoon you do have and in a racially or an integrated school still in many cases Negro children come from ghetto slums. They might be bused or some other way to bring about an integrated school. There are many other ways many other ways right. Busing is only white but nevertheless. However you want to slice that. You had seven I think approaches here. At the end of the school day though they go back to their own neighborhoods. Now what happens then what does what does that say about this. Do they.

This is a result of the interracial education between say the morning at 3:00 in the afternoon produce any inner social contacts among the students or do they just get this interracial opportunity within the framework of the educational process. But in terms of the social process lucid Well it's hard to generalize because we don't have that much integration to study. And of course it varies a lot by the concentration of the negro ghetto and by the degree of desegregation that has come about in the school. But I would say there are problems raised as I gather you're driving at and I would agree that where the school is the sort of integrated bastion in an otherwise segregated society its effects are going to be delimited by that society. But in the words of the late President Kennedy let us begin. It is clear that the housing patterns are going to be the last area of racial change and the real estate industry is pretty well I think not all real estate deals but certainly the majority of them are geared to discriminating no matter what the laws are. And they

are supported by a number of citizens in this and in many communities housing patterns are going to change but very slowly. Already we have employment patterns changing the fastest interracial patterns and Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as I mentioned. It's certainly going to accelerate the pace of change in employment. Education is in the middle it has lagged behind employment desegregation. It is hopefully going to do a little better than housing. We can't wait for the housing though we've got to prepare children for the employment situations they'll face. Let's say that it may have a lag partly because of the political power structure in the community including let's say the school committee or the school board. What is the hope of the Negro community bootstrapping itself to demand and force improvement. One of the difficulties it seems to me I mean within negroes in the Negro neighborhood Negro school. It seems to me that one of the difficulties is that the Negro is not as well organized nor does he

have the skill not nor does he know how to approach the corporate structure of the school board. What suggestions would you make to the Negro community. In addition to let's say all the other suggestions that you've made. Well I think your statement would be more true if five years ago than it is now in the middle six. You don't have that far behind. Well I would say at least not certainly not all but much of America is now better organized than it ever has been before. Now admittedly you're quite right. Negro America has been less organized in other ethnic groups in America. But it's certainly becoming more organized. I don't see that as a primary problem. I think. The great problem is that it is a complex demand that Negro Americans have to make and it is clearly the public does not understand what the demand is yet the public sees it as some kind of demand for busing or something that is far too simple.

There are seven ways of getting desegregation of which busing is only one but it isn't just the segregation that Negro Americans are demanding. They're demanding that plus a huge compensatory educational program. And these two things as I try to indicate have to be mashed. I don't really know of a single school system I trust there must be some somewhere. Arlington Virginia may be the closest I can think of where these two things are where the work is really being focused on what I consider to be the real problem and the real problem not the political problem you referred to but the educational problem of how do you enter mesh the compensatory training and the and the balance. And for my money one way or the other is hopeless. You know you're a social scientist and you a number of others including Physik verses have mustered a great deal of evidence drawn from social science indicating that racial prejudice and of course racial discrimination operate adversely against the negro and a lot of your proposals and

solutions would be desirable to bring about the necessary interracial society which we must live in and which we increasingly will be exposed to in the future. And yet isn't there a gap between social science and the work in the scholarly research of people like yourselves and those who are responsible for keeping the barriers high. Is there a communication like here. How do you how do you get across some of the evidence that seems to me to be irrefutable in terms of the desirability of this within the framework of American democratic ideology. Well you don't always get it across. You try the best you can or a series like this. But in general those people who will be viewing this series will be those people who need it least and those who need it most will not be viewing it the viewer kind of I think implying sort of the need for getting over the rational argument based on scientific data. Are we too rational. Well what I tried to say in my previous lecture in this series I'm not so sure that

that's a very useful way and I'm pretty sure we won't be able to use it anyway. Your new behavior we hope to restructure society and the point social engineering. Well we're getting into the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is the most magnificent restructuring of American society for the Negro American and for all Americans I might add that we've ever had. So it is it is a. But he's an optimist that he sees progress. Well you used the phrase dark Goops and keeping the bear whose job it is to keep the barriers high or keep the barriers high. Both those those whose job it is to keep the barriers low let's say the school people themselves you will recall a very vivid experience that we don't find the same barrier. Well I'm talking about a school man who's who whose job it is to bring education within the reach of every boy or every girl. I want to recall and since many of our listening students will be reading

negro self concept that a. In your experience that you describe that you lead into and which the behavioral scientists came and reported what they knew. And in which the educators. Then ask tell us what to do. Remember Dr. Pettigrew was. A participant in this conference held in 1963. Another concern with this whole situation and those who read the discussion carefully Amigo's so concept would catch. The difficulty of trying to get transmitted what little information that we get such as you've shared with us today to the business of adaptations so that we can get within the school's organizational structure some movement in the direction of integration and this kind of environment that you're talking about it seems to me that too many school people are asking you. As a behavioral and social scientist to tell them exactly what to do. Yes well I would agree. I got at the close of my lecture.

Tonight. I tried to get as specific as social science can ever get. As to the general principles educators must strive for for an effective interracial learning environment. But I'm not a professional educator. It seems to me that if educate when educators ask social scientists to tell them exactly what to do they are forfeiting their own professional competence. That is a teacher knows better than I how to transmit these principles in a class but so often the words and the writings of the social scientists are covered in such jargon that the teachers cannot understand and I think you're hearing my friend no I'm not because I think your presentation was remarkably free of some of the pedagogical hurdles that educators on the line have to surmount in order to translate what you and social scientists have spent years working on.

I think that's a legitimate criticism of social science though I often think that particular criticism goes too far and no one seems to get too angry with the physical scientists for having their jargon. But the problem social scientists have with theirs is that everybody thinks he's a social scientist everybody thinks he's a psychologist. After all he's a person and he knows other people and everybody thinks he's a sociologist because he lives in society. So we have a little harder time because everybody considers himself an expert in our field. No one considers himself a physicist and so no one seems to deny that synthesis is jargon. I'm not really denying your point because I think it's still valid but I think it can be overdone. I think many of your suggestions had to do with improvements outside the school. I think we're going to have to come to grips later in this series with improvements within the school is this the fair distinction or else we can talk. The catalyst I suppose and the Allport principles of how to generate an accepting and effective situation I would hope should apply in rather direct and concrete ways to the classroom. Now the seven methods of desegregating

I'm talking obviously about a system. Well of course the school system is a. Part of a polity called the town or the city. And you have been largely referring I think to the inner city where you have large concentrations of Negro population which is generally true in the United States and yet in your suburban community generally speaking you have a high percentage of white students and adults and adults. All right. We're still talking about schools doctor versus now. What remedy do you have here. There have been some proposals for interchanges between the suburban school and the inner city school. What kind of message do you have for the peripheral suburban community which is largely white. Well I think they've got to help in the problem and not just decry the problems of the inner city or the south or whatever it is the whipping boy at the moment. The fact is the suburbs are going to have to contribute to the solution. Inner cities do not have and will not have the resources themselves to be able to deal with. I have I have a point here because you were you work with the Lincoln filing center and developing

three films on the inner city child with McGraw Hill versus the center staffer involved in this I think development of teacher training fills for the inner city child. Now we've had a lot of comment by cities and towns which do not have Negro students are only if you say well you know these films don't say anything to us. We're not concerned with this problem. We don't we don't have we don't have negroes. This is not important for us and teacher education. And the same thing might apply to this series here. Well I think again there is a need for federal legislation to agree to tracks that. It appears that it's say maybe a harsh rule. I stand corrected perhaps. But. If you wish but it seems to me that American education moves fastest when federal money comes in in a large way in some particular area. It seems here that federal law if we had federal legislation and it's certainly been suggested by a lot of people lately including myself that the suburbs and the inner city be made parties to new federal

legislation which would be voluntary programs but which both school systems would be. We see federal financing for schooling of inner city children in suburban systems. And for the construction of new schools on the borderlines between the inner city and the suburbs. Now I don't think you're going to get involvement of educators in the suburbs to tape until something like that begins to open up. But I must say personally that I've had inquiries from at least 20 some suburbs usually educators asking me if I have any information about other survivors who have started programs of aiding inner city children. And there are such programs just beginning in a number of suburbs now. And it does appear as if there is a growing sentiment that I think a lot of suburbs not all guilty here as involved as we talked about in the last show. I think a lot of suburbs are a little getting a little tired of being called the white noose around the neck.

We are going to invite some of the representatives of one or two of these suburbs later in the show to discuss this summer experience of inviting the Negro community into the school system. And while you're having me you might try coaxing them into where I got the impression you didn't think the summer experience was jolly good. Well I can feel that this may be focusing on symptomatic problems rather than on the basic causative factors that make for segregated neighborhoods. But I want to I want to cut the circle at any point. And we have to involve the suburbs in the not just in education but in many other towns. When Dr. Gibson was beginning to talk about the minority group of negroes in the community I thought you were going to lead to the fact that that the political power of the Negro community was so minor and ineffectual that there was no possibility of a bootstrap operation through this. But for you to make that point. Well thank you. But let me say

to again here that we will invite Dr. Bradbery seashores to talk about the political socialization of the negro because I think it's very much the point of this particular problem. The you talked something about letting the head down. I don't quite get the context of that was letting the head down well breaking through the road constraints where when a Boston employee finally get to know each other at the office party maybe almost to end up putting the hero up too. I think that's a good way. I never thought of it that way. Yes. Putting the hair up is when the roles are what would be the first place he was. Yes. Well we appreciate very much your appearance here at this session and our earlier session and I hope that many of our student viewers will be looking at a profile of the Negro American and see in detail some of your suggestions. Thank you very much. Thank you too. Dr. Gupta. You know this is. What.

I. Need. I. Thought. I had