Say Brother; Affirmative Action or Discrimination. [Part 2 of 2]; 805

It. And. Do. It. Good evening and welcome to this week's edition of say brother. My name is Eduardo vs and I will be your host. We're going to start out tonight's program with a very interesting discussion with Alan cried a well-known Boston

artist who operates now in the south end of our city. And he's also a historian and has recently developed a very interesting theory on the multi-ethnicity of every individual of everyone here in the Boston area and of course throughout the country as well he's going to be sharing some of his thoughts and some of his impressions. We're going to follow up with a very interesting piece a cultural piece entitled The third rail connection which deals with the interrelationship between Afro American and Native American peoples in the country and particularly when we were focusing in on this social phenomenon in the north east. And we hope that that will provide a very fine educational experience for you who are not familiar with the nature of this relationship then we will follow with the presentation of some poetry. Ms Sam stamper a well-known Boston poet will be sharing some of her fine works with us and to wrap up the program this evening. We're going to have a debate part two of us later this open platform which will deal with the question is affirmative action reverse discrimination. So we're

hoping you will stay with us this evening should be a very exciting program. Mr. Bright Welcome to say the best of all here and it's really a pleasure to have you on this week's this week's program and possibly the best thing for me to do now would be to just go into a very brief introduction of what Mr. Cripe is described as a very accomplished artist he graduated from the Museum of Fine Arts here in Boston at 19 36. He is presently the librarian at the extension library here at Harvard University is also an artist historian at the Semitic museum also at Harvard University. Recently he has lent his name to one of the six buildings at the new Blackstone's Square a community school in the south. And and I think maybe we should start by letting you mature quite reflect on your own historic development in the area of art and then we'll discuss some of the other things that you are about with us to share. See. Well first of all I had a rather difficult thing for me to do I suppose

as far as my artist concerned I started drawing when I was about oh about five or six years old. And one of the teachers at the school became rather interested and she called my mother. I think the teacher's name was Mr. Brady and she suggested I go down to the Children's Art Center. And so I went to the children's arts and which happened to be a fine arts museum for children and I got when I started my formal training there. Then from there I went to the I went to high school and went to the museum vocational classes I had at that particular time. Then from there I got a scholarship into the museum's school itself and I went there for part to sing from 1929 to 1936. And I've been drawing ever since. And of course I did go to Harvard University and my and I am a graduate of Harvard University Extension class of 1968. I thought about that to put that in. OK well let's just trace some of your artistic development by showing

some of your work and I'm going to show some some things that have been done I cried and possibly you could describe that very briefly as we move through them. If you would why don't you go ahead and tell us who this man is. Well this particular person is Jack Bates and he was a playwright back in the 30s and he wrote several plays some of them which were produced on the station WNYC and radio program and there are plays about Negro life has bars in the south and things like that. He he he received a bit of of interest and an attention during that during this particular time. And the scene in the background is a scene from one of his place. And I remember taking part in the play and I remember taking part in the plays he used to be produce over the radio and that was what he called a class choir at that time. So he used to sing spirituals as a background for for for these particular place.

OK let's go ahead and go on to something that has a really interesting religious significance and possibly you can describe this for for us. This is interesting because that painting you just saw was I did that back in the 30s and this is a block prints which I did about two or three years ago as a series of block prints of the four Evangelists and the technique is only in block print which is printed in black and white then hand colored and gold leaf. What I have here is the figure of St. Matthew and the symbol which happens to be a Winget man. And in the background if he can if he can see it I show St. Matthew as being a patron of both Egypt and Ethiopia. So Ethiopia is represented on one side with Aksel and which is the capital city of ancient Ethiopia. And you have to have the cathedral there on the left hand side of course have Egypt with the Sphinx and the and the Pyramids.

OK let's go ahead and go on then to something a little bit more contemporary and of course as I said. Mr. Christ is from Boston and of course Boston has been a wonderful source of artistic expression and here we have a very interesting piece on the Concord Baptist church and Mr. Card if you will scribe a little bit about this kind of work and why is it that you wish to look at contemporary Boston. I see. Well one of the reasons I did this particular print is say as an offset print. I did a series of them because I was on one of my programs. I was an artist in residence at the Museum of American history. And so that particular program meant that I had to go throughout the South then picking up sites which are of interest to black people in the cause to conquer Baptist churches one of them I believe was the largest black church in this city as a congregation may run to maybe three thousand.

And then the next piece I'm going to put up is has a very interesting contemporary significance in that it has the use of a very definite symbol and I was hoping you might describe how you use symbols and some of your more contemporary work. Yes. While this particular drawing is the figure on the left isn't an shot a fertility doll. And what I've done or what I am doing is making a series of these drawings showing the African figures and then also showing the relationship of the African fungus to the blacks you see in the city of Boston or any part of the Americas. It's more of an introduction you might say to to two African themes. In other words I'm siding with the familiar to introduce ourselves into something which is more or less unfamiliar because I assume that while we are becoming more and more acquainted with African things it still is in the area of the unfamiliar. And so it should be introduced in this particular fashion. All right this is one method of introduction. OK I'm going to put up another piece and we might just describe the other time. And another

example of how you use symbolism. OK. Yeah. There's another another figure. One of the African figures and it's actually the mother and child in Africa and also showed a reflection of that mother and child and mother and child in the city of Boston showing the sort eternal theme of maternity and motherhood and so forth. OK very good. I think now we're going to take a break and then we're going to come back and talk to you more about some of the more current work you're doing with respect to your interest interesting theory and we hope you stay tuned because Mr. Carter has a very interesting theory on the development of all of us here in United States. Don't go away. Stunning new dramatic film from the award winning documentary filmmaker Robert Young. Read. The lead the wire jumper the story of a young Mexican man American Odyssey in the valley which Kahn crossed the border to the harsh California. Next on the Peabody Award winning drama

series on PBS watch Sunday night at 10:00 on channel 2. We're back and I just put down a book here which reflects I guess it's the seminal work for a very string theory that you have on the historical multiracial development of all of us here in the United States. Mr. Carter I'd wonder if you would like Hope you get a refund on what you've been working on and on about this theory that you have about all of us. I see. Well what I've done. Back in 1968 I wrote this little booklet which you use which you see before you on the rediscovery of the cultural heritage of the United States. And one of my reasons for doing that is this that where history is presented is more or less a little bit one sided smallness an Anglo-Saxon approach which has a certain validity but the only difficulty with it is it doesn't include everything else. And what I'm might put my presentation is that I

feel that the that the cultural heritage of the Americas in general and US in particular since we live here as an afro European culture on top of an Indian base. And so what I've been doing since 9900 in 69 is to produce a series of three groups of slide tape presentation three groups of talks one dealing with the Indian because that's our base. And the second dealing with the African and the third dealing with the European and when I say European I really mean Eurasian. And so there are about 24 talks in each set. And of course it slides and takes. And at present I've completed the Indian section and the African section I've completed the text for that the slides complete to talk number 15 and the ration of sex when I'm working on now I've completed six talks. And then I hope to think I've done about three talks with these slides and tapes and I think of taking about three more years to complete this wouldn't you just kind of work is so important in today's

today's society. Well I think it's vastly important because one thing we shouldn't have such a parochial view of ourselves and the cultural heritage of this country is enormous because you take the Indian with cause that means at times in the entire Pacific cultural base and there's a direct relationship between what you might find the North West Indians and the carbons of Japan and things in Cambodia for example what we find in Guatemala and so forth. Then the African tradition of course goes back to the origin of man himself and I treat Africa as a whole treating each up as part of Africa and Egypt being Humala see Africa thrust into the Mediterranean world. And then of course as far as Europe is concerned you have to look upon Europe as being part of Eurasian continent. And my feeling is that this is our heritage and the cause of all of the people who are here. I mean we have that as a background and I feel for example of the Benin bronzes the cultural heritage of every single child in the United States without any exception. And if a child is nobody's being robbed at that particular part of his heritage where the child is white or the child is black.

So most of your work is directed at younger people. They are able to get off to a good start in terms of understanding where they come from and who they are. Well yes. What is a design for the for the grammar school fourth and fifth grade level. And this program is being used as a pilot project in a way in a private school in New York City St. Louis school in New York and it will be used to schedule be used in the Blackstone's square community school they're working on that now where they're in the building after all. Yes. OK. Maybe we can go ahead and show some of these prints or paintings that Mr. Crane has done and I should point out that the slides that comprise some of the presentations that Mr. Carter is referring to are shot. Are pictures of these particular slides of these particular pictures. First thing I think we have on is shows the the. The path that Asian people took across the Bering Straits and shows the I guess the whole continent of America and we can see how that developed.

Let's go on to the next one and if you possibly can talk about what we've got here coming up. So we have the Eskimos. Oh yes. This shows the Eskimos cause the Eskimos came over about a couple of thousand years ago. And they formed you might say the the the peoples of that particular area. We learned an awful lot of things from them like for example the buildings that they had that snow colored that ego in the background is designed to take care of such to look fierce Heideck when so the wind slides over the the the building rather than knocking it down. And then of course the clothing that you asked him. Whereas I mean this MRSA gives us some idea of the space suits that people wear. Mm hmm. And also of course the kind of clothes we wear nowadays I mean like children and so forth. So we have a tremendous amount to learn from them. We're still learning. OK let's take a little trip further down south in the civil war and possibly possible more tropical in here we see some Brazilian Indians being greeting rather

Portuguese Conqueror's you might say well not quite. It's a little bit before the Portuguese is a theory which is which is being more and more supported by facts I mean that the Americans are visited by non-Europeans so many Mobot a thousand possible affiliations Phoenicians and all those definitions of course are carriers. They were the merchant men of their particular time the All my culture in Mexico for example to show strong elements of that. And then of course to get the development of my own culture which shows some reflections of West Africa because of the Mayans in the Aztecs. I think we have some slides here that I picked out so we can see no one. For that I want. And. Here we see a variety of of Indian headdresses and you might describe each of these horses. Well yeah what I've shown here is that something of what I mentioned before the Pacific cultural base and on one side on the left of course is the Aztec and then semi and then and then the person on the right extreme right with a towering headdress looking

almost like a Greek Helmund is Hawaiian and that the thing in common is all of them using the use of feathers in the head dresses and also cloaks and so forth. And give me some idea of this sort of cultural community that we find in the Pacific area and I'm fine are not startling things about like relationship between totem poles and the North West. And then that my oring totem poles you might say down in New Zealand and then the similarity of the design showing some relationship to China. Of course the Mexican Indians the Toltecs have their own particular types of totem pole. Yes. Structures OK let's go on to the next and see what we've got. Oh here we have some housing and you might want to look at a relationship between these three as you've got three different types of housing that's on the left because the Amazon the Indian cut has the longhouse the Eyrecourt in the center and then they have a modest long house of the Solomon Islands and the one I'm just showing here is just that General relationship of the Pacific area.

OK let's go on to the next. These are all very interesting and I hope people are getting the point that we're all derived from. From similar roots. The next one up. Yeah this one here shows the relationship of the old people and which is a multicultural Mexico and then the extensionally all make people in the münze you'll find in the pits in the Mississippi Valley. So what we have to remember is that as far as Mexico is concerned that is the relationship of the Mexican people. To to the. You might say the Southern States is about the same you might say as the rest of Greeks and Romans to the Mediterranean world. I mean in other words I mean in this particular area Mexico was as much as a cultural center. Yet another cultural center further north and then of course in another developed way down in the south that is as far as the Incas which had to be the last of a whole series of traditions and cultures and what have you. Unfortunately we don't have enough time to show everything and I just wanted to give

the people a kind of a brief idea of what you've been working on these from the artistic level. So you can see possibly. I'd like to comment on how you feel. These kinds of problems will be received specifically here in the Boston area. How do you how do you feel that your whole multiday. Ethnic approach will be received here. Well I hope it will be received favorably because I haven't the slightest idea exactly how what will happen but so far I mean I've talked to many teachers and. They feel that this type of approach is extremely important. And I think it is because the kind of a world that we're living in is a sort of a multi-racial world really it is one world and we have to think in those terms in a child's education should be should prepare him for that kind of a world. And so he should be able to see that in this country United States in relationship to the world and

also see its roots because the roots are all over the world. And we do have a marvelous opportunity here. Sometimes we speak of racial problems. And I think that we ought to do is think in terms of racial opportunities because that's really what we have. It is any place in the world that can can make it that this country can and we could have a cultural renaissance around hit the like which has never been seen before. You know they have all the elements for it. And what we should do should think in terms of sharing our particular gifts with each other. Well let's hope that the approach is to do well here in Boston and New York of course and in other areas. Mr. Craig we've just run out of time and I want to thank you very much for coming on and sharing some of your fine work and some of your ideas with us. Thank you very much. We're not going to be going to a very interesting piece as I introduced before called the third rail connection. And we hope you'll stick around. We'll see you next week. That wasn't true it didn't matter just in the Midwest who had a few Negroes having been

either bought from whites or secured as prisoners were found among the Indians. They were looked upon by the Indians as one of their own kind. And were allowed full liberty. Historian situs Thomas writing in 1983 about the data sets of Rhode Island said. At the present day not a pure blood not a gun that exists. And if any of the tribe remain Indian blood has been so mingled with that of the negro or that all traces of the rich through Navigant it has vanished. Apparently Massachusetts may have been the center of Negro relationships. The literature on the subject is abundant. It shows that a few persons who were the offspring of Negro Indian relationships have retained prominent places in the history of New England. Crispus Attucks whose name means little there was a half breed of Negro Indian stock.

The states included in the south eastern area are the ones in which the most frequent intermingling occurred between negroes and Indians. This is very largely due to the fact that these states have comprised our greatest slave culture airier the creek of Alabama and Georgia. The Cajuns of Alabama and the millions of Tennessee show that throughout the United States there is physical evidence of a great amount of intermixture between Indians and Negroes. I. Discovered stay in the middle of this piece is very painful.

I. Take me. Back. To the date and. May I. Take. The sweet taste of sweet honey and just give it all. As silent as she claims and have.

A. Sweet 16 birthday party. That was the summer that I could not get. I was. Crazy. Tempted. It was sweet 16. Yes yes yes. Yes. Yes. Now you can pay me twenty four hours a day when sleeping walking talking. Most of all. When. It is just.

Now you know. Mary. Mary got the courage to message in the space. That. Period time. Which is your. Day. Did you see me. I miss. My. Bitch. My man is so. Well. Married you can play all you can

tap dance this dance with. You. Need to. Go to the beach and what nothing will take me away from my guy. Oh and that was when Elvis Pelvis say we're going to see him but he was like. It was never nice to

see you in class. Good for. You and your team too. Oh it. Cost. In. 1950 things like that. We. Have girls in my class get pregnant and maybe he's never been to live with it. And. Then you could be six months later. And. See if that was the vaccine.

So the. To. The that. You think. It. Makes. The body have things like having a dog you'd be out there messing with somebody of the dog like you have. No place but we live with this. It must be. I'm sorry. Because I got to get.

Embalming. That was when I discovered to use for justice baby they don't need no as she lay. By. This. Time. There was a red fox. 1952. I sure did. Good day. One thing I remember one thing I know no joy no happiness. Oh really. It was a Saturday morning. Yes that's right. So going into the kitchen sitting there with one of my mom's knees pressed against one ear and one knee against the other. And to hear the sound and the feel of the huddle clearly not to feel the. Smell and see that hot

curling heat in all my skin. And. Womanhood but try to climb that all women must make would be aided by their man but hate waking in the morning knowing there's something more not just your wife or the mother. Oh the House it's somehow something inside me. It grows the blossom preferring sunlight

to your day to lay in bed at night. All alone right to your heart to wake up the next morning complaining complaining that they make mattresses to. Being a poet and somehow knowing that God said you a black female Bribie It's like looking at a black man and you know seeing what he can be some of the time some of the glaze in yet loving him all the same just the way he's right this moment to see ships. Now I understand the recipe sometimes is waking up in the morning knowing that you can get your

pride in and the pain. To feel like and watch the last chance. To run madly through your life telling all the stories that you know. Never knowing. Never knowing if anyone is doing this dance. Anyone tryin to write some time. And plan because you love. To dine next day because somehow you're not to have seen myself in a yellow dress. Like the moon coming up the shine on something lacking is lucky to have a job. And ambition. My husband my house. And. I get to know that they was

round and round in peace and rising to fly building and loving him the way he loves only himself. Being a Black man is like fairy tales. How to make stone soup. And other musical to know they love you. And the dope. And all the things that crawled into their lives and crowd into your. Head to realize that when you get up in the morning you make Quaker Oats and it comes out lovely and down somehow. To know their sanity is knowing that it is Quaker Oats not me to rise and rise and rise.

My name is Samantha Brown for the creations of mine and my friends are entitled to call me sir. As an icon. As.

Being. An. A. Million more tonight an open platform we will conclude concluded to part discussion on affirmative action. I'd like to welcome back our guests from last week Mr. James Kelly of the South Boston information center. Ms. Sheila Martin of the Massachusetts social and economic opportunity Council Mr. John Robinson of the

Boston Globe and Mr. William HOERR of the American opinion magazine. Last week we began a discussion on the issue of affirmative action and reverse discrimination using the University of California versus Alan Banky case as a focal point. On October the 12th the United States Supreme Court began hearing arguments in this case which because of its probable impact on affirmative action programs across the country could be the most important civil rights case since the Brown versus Board of Education decision in 1954. This week we continue our discussion by focusing on the experiences and insights of people who work with and represent people at the community level and people who must deal daily with the issues of fairness of preference and discrimination. And I'd like to begin with your question turn to either one of our guests Mr. KELLY Last week you contended that white males in America are suffering because of affirmative action programs.

I have a sort of a three pronged question. I think it's three parts. It may turn out to be more than that. Can you cite evidence of widespread harm to white males in this country from affirmative action programs. And also can you tell us if you believe that presently today black people women and Hispanics in particular continue to suffer in access to jobs promotions and education in this country. Well first of all the the evidence that I point to is a form of affirmative action and I stated last week that forced busing. That's enough FIRMAT of action program being instituted by the federal government. Simply to have some type of racial balance in the schools. Now that certainly I just just read the Boston Globe and you'll see the harmful effects that forced busing has had over the past three years. And as I stated also last week that employer is the cause of

the type of business that they're in and that is to to make money. I'm going to do something that is going to be beneficial for the company. And that is they're going to hire the most competent the most qualified person that person be either black or white spanish speaking oriental a male or female. I don't think really makes an awful lot of difference to that employer as long as that person gets the job done. And it makes money for them for the company. But Jim can you cite any statistics can you cite any examples of widespread damage to white males in this country because of programs to compensate for past and present discrimination. Well first of all I don't think that there's been passed maybe been some past discrimination but not as much as you as you'd like to believe is not as much certainly in the present as you are stating. The 1964 Civil Rights Act

supposedly done away with all discrimination you counted. Well if it didn't then the federal government ought to take those people who are violating that law and either bring them into court and put them behind bars or find them or whatever. Like what does the committee for one. Well if they were guilty of discrimination and so by a court that was found so by Judge Garraty Hawai don't think is that biased in his interpretation of the law that the federal government. Yes I know that's why a lot of problems come from the federal government. We seem to be in strange agreement. OK. But I will point out that I can. Can I name the names of hundreds or thousands or millions. No but I would say that Alan Baki is representing white people. White males especially by the millions in this country because they cannot become firemen policemen or they cannot become an apprentice in the union or they cannot get into. Law school or medical school or any type of college simply because less qualified minorities have preference.

I submit to you that for decades in this country white males have been refused entry into medical school into law school to jobs as firemen and policemen because of the demands on those jobs. Too many applicants for too few jobs too few spots. The final question to you John. Do two wrongs make a right. If that was discrimination I can answer that categorically. You don't think it does. Then can you can you honestly support. These affirmative action programs if they are proven wrong and proven wrong by looking for the proof. That's what we're here for. Well let me let me jump in here a minute and give Bill a chance to ask a question. Yeah maybe he'll do following up on this latest guy who did it for you and it hasn't had the opportunity to speak. I would like to get back to the root of what we were talking about. Has affirmative action turned into reverse discrimination. The philosophy behind affirmative action presumably is benign but what has

happened I'm afraid in this country is that we have now come down to a system of quotas so ridiculous that as a matter of fact within the last couple of months the Labor Department said that your employer must go out and search in higher alcoholics and drug addicts just as other quote minorities. Not only it. I contend that is absurd. I think it's demeaning to the minorities in question. How can we get away from this number system and start treating people as individuals. Let me just say that any affirmative action plan that any you would have a look at does not have as a bottom line a quota. They do not specifically say that. This. Program or this company or this governmental agency must go out and hire 10 blacks 10 Spanish 10 women. OK. Wait let me just say what affirmative action is. Time a

goal is set to say that by two or three years from now you would have put together a comprehensive recruitment program whereby you can be close to qualified people so that you could go and find the qualified people so that you will be into with universities community colleges community agencies where people are being provided training to be able to get into these jobs. It does not say that you have to go out and hire 10 of this and 10 of that. This is when you misconstrue the word go with quota. And you also misconstrue the word or words affirmative action with something like an admissions to a college. Those are two completely different systems. OK. One by two completely different entities at college. If that is the only effort that they can set up to say that they are actively recruiting. Some the minority

community from the community of women from the community of disadvantaged people they'll say well we'll take in four or five this year whether they are qualified or not. Now what school and preferably a medical school or law school will only take in a student who's not qualified to compete in that school and to keep up with that school that seems to be a defeatist attitude would it. And our. System of academia has reached that point where they are willing to do that just to say that they have to or blacks or three women all be Spanish. Well then yes I say do away with the don't have anything at all. Mr. KELLER I think in talking around those quarters and also talking about the rights of for me please when you also feel that an employer would be in the best interest of the employer to meet certain goals it may be that big of a mind set up in terms of hiring certain numbers growth numbers of minorities whether you call that a goal or a quota. But that also makes sense that as an employee

you would hire someone whether that person be black green or blue with someone who is going to do the job. And so the question I guess is is that are you are you basically saying that affirmative action programs help women and national minorities are taking jobs that they're not qualified for that don't even deserve to. How is that. Let me give you a prime example of this is that basically what you're saying is that this way. Prime example to show and I'll come out I'll combine your question with the statement that she had just made. And that is three years ago my union sheet metal workers local 17 were going to take in 50 apprentices. The federal government came in and said that 20 twenty two were black. Now that's a quote. That's a number they said that's what you must take. Do they say $216 fiberglas OK. Let me answer it this way. 16. Other blacks who took the test did not come in the top 50. In fact they came in at

185 that took the test. They came in anywhere between 85 and 185. So they will win. You know they weren't in the even in the consideration. So in my opinion they were perhaps unqualified. Only 16 took the test so the here's the union officers saying well what do we do to get the other the other six and a recommendation from one of the programs that perhaps she'll Sheila worked for. They made the recommendation that well if you need six more go out and get them off the street corner and they a prison and see if you can recruit them from the air see who is getting out of jail. But now what do you say to two qualified white kids who had the determination to perhaps go to some type of vocational education school down in Quincy or wherever from sheet metal. They took the test. They became in the top 50. So they come in 48. But they were told because they are white they cannot be hired as an apprentice in the sheet metal workers. What do you think.

You know there are some in this case there's some young guys who are qualified and they're going to gain the same case. Blacks are not covered. What do you think is the difference between those two classes of people both you know fighting crime. I think some people. I think it's something that's inside them the will to achieve the enthusiasm the desire individual will I believe be the classes of people and I think classes are just a group of whites he's talking about to get the blacks and within groups of whites you could narrow it down to Italian-Americans and they're not going to favor minorities trying to simplify by using his example of his life. This is one word that we put people in categories because this is just for the sake of argument I was really saying the group he's talking Margarets is the other group OK. What I'm getting at is that I think in some ways when you come down to talking about this affirmative action I think there's one side which says Well individuals should have enough initiative blah blah blah and should make their way. Let's suppose that way is blocked. OK.

Then you become unqualified with that since no one would be blocking that way seek them out. They are very guilty people. The question to someone else. Most people leave me and any other white person who does not discriminate against anyone. Leave us alone. I would like to just jump in here because I find it odd that you would refer to the quinsy vocational high school thing from the Boston community and knowing that we only have one trade school here within the Boston school system and that's Boston trade. Now I would contend that that union should have been doing with Boston trade high school. On equal footing with getting white and black students graduating from trade high school to go into an apprentice program which is a training program. You don't have to be overqualified to enter an apprenticeship program you enter that program to get the training to go on to the professional trade that you want to be in. And I find it totally Iranians that you would go all the way out to Quincy vocational high

school and try to equate that with Boston where you are speaking about Boston. Well first of all she wasn't high school has had a sheet metal course. One of the best in the city of Boston for the past I would say 54 years. So there is a sheet metal course right in the city of Boston and high school has been opened to anyone. Historically there's never been an incident and it should have been brought out in Cavendish court. If a black was excluded from the high school sheetmetal of course simply because he happened to be black. Well listen let me say this that it's the unspoken word in Boston that we are a city of territories and neighborhoods where different races are segregated. OK. And it's an unspoken word that a black child would not go to South Boston High School 10 years ago and be the only black child there as where on the

other hand white students went to English High in Roxbury went to Boston train in Roxbury and went to technical high in Roxbury. So they you find the segregation. This is where Judge Cavaney made his decision on busing. But yet you just said that white students went to school and those those same black students could not go to school softball so she wanted to go to the sheet metal shop. That would be totally dangerous when the German chancellor as you know people with is already here for one hour. I want to talk about that anyway. And we were both Boston fellows we we know what. We know what goes on. You don't mean to say that people in the police department fire department unions and Boston construction unions people who have done very well in Boston through the years

for themselves economically socially are enthusiastic about sharing those resources with black people. Would you say they are and threw me off in all. No I don't think they're enthusiastic but I don't think they're neutral about it Jim. All the while low toll on know hostile while whatever whatever is neutral hostile or in fact putting out the welcome mat it makes no difference if any of the of the unions have been found discriminatory then some remedial action should have been taken against those particular individuals. And the same on the on the civil service for the police in the fire department. But in but from 64 was actually what happened from 1960. I know John they said from here on in. No one should be discriminated against but yet the federal government came in and started discriminating against how many police like why how many black policemen were put on since 1964 and the Boston police. Well the Boston police I

don't think there's been a great number of police put on since 1964 black or white. You are a follow. That to be just a basic point since we're getting down now to hiring practices and so forth and we're talking about admissions to schools back on the affirmative action level. What is the solution. Are we going to reach some kind of equality by treating people equally by giving special favors to certain groups. This seems to be what the federal government is now contending. Do you believe Miss Martin that this is going to be an answer by treating people equally that will get it. No and I don't believe that we're treating anyone equally here to the person. If you want to use that word an equal. Here is the minority here we can where big question is What are we going to do about them. How are we going to get them into school. What can we do we should just let them apply their quality

qualified people out there. They don't have to set up a special program. This is their thoughts. They feel that they have to have a special process to deal with blacks and other minorities. Would you agree when those 16 spots in the Baki case out at the University of California putting 16 slots aside for minorities. I felt that. Well let me tell you about those 16 slots because no one knows the test scores of those 16 people who actually fill those slots. No one knows if they were overqualified or qualified to bring another point. Is that Mr. baaki himself did apply to 13 other medical schools and was not admitted. Why wasn't he admitted. What are his qualifications. When those questions are answered We can look at the question of who is qualified and who is in and who's special and who's not. But until we start dealing with those facts I don't want to hear the

rudiments that go around. And no we will not find an answer to this question until we stop trying to put people in special categories and dealing with them as if they're from somewhere else. But here again is your question. I just have. To qualify perhaps and I'm certainly on on Sheila's mind on the schools on the grade level for the for the medical school out of a four point zero maximum. Alan baaki had 3.5 and some of the minorities some of the 16 who will admitted had a 2.1 2.2 great happiness. I don't know. You know we don't have that much time. But I don't want to again just on by by barky case but it was also true that there are a number of whites in my class who have more great points than Bach. And that's something I think many people will do under a lot of things about the here is we don't know. I think the one thing I want to talk about here is that you know just from people you know

and people you represent sort of what are the feelings about prevention in Boston if no other place. I think there are a lot of ways we can look at affirmative action is something very positive for minorities or for women. And I think in other ways we can sort of look at it as a negative thing that does reverse discrimination but is also another way to look at it and you might ask yourself the question. Suppose there was no affirmative action suppose there was not that protection of the protected classes and we still have a situation that we had even prior to getting 54 and prior to you know 20 years ago. So I think you can look at it in terms of protection in terms of discrimination what have you. Clearly that is a problem may be with us for a while and maybe the decision might decide a number of things for us and clearly that across this country we're going to be debating in forms and forms like we are today. We're all out of time. Just about I'd like one more quick question. There is if there is time to do that if and when I was a closing statement to make will be won and then when I say goodnight anymore I would just like to say if this fokin case comes out adversely.

It will have a ripple effect on affirmative action programs per se that are in place now because people don't get the feeling that they've been doing something wrong. And now they can stop they can stop trying to recruit people who are qualified for jobs who have never had access to those jobs before they can stop admitting qualified students into colleges because they're not mandated they don't have to follow any rules or goals or quotas anymore. And. In essence you're right it will throw us back another two or three hundred years. Mr. KELLY What happens if the decision goes against but what do you think. Well if it goes against baki. I think just a longer continuation of discrimination discrimination against whites. If the decision is in favor of baaki I think that I I contradict what Sheila says. I don't think that the Ballis will once again

be broken I think the priorities of the black civil rights leaders. Will be to improve their children's education regardless of whether their child is sitting next to. A white or black child. I think that's where the priorities of the black should lie. Good education and they rob any children of good education by simply throwing them on a bus. I want to thank you all for joining me and joining me again this week. And I'd also like to thank you for being with us again and I hope that the discussion we've had this evening has been informative and he'll bring out some of the way that Boston people feel about affirmative action. Join us again next week good night. The