Government, Politics, and Citizen Involvement; Ellis Ash

Good evening ladies and gentlemen we're delighted to welcome you to our program this evening. In the course of these programs we are trying to determine how the interested citizen individually and in organized groups may decide and then act with efficacy on questions and issues that affect his own life. Our subject tonight is one that affects the lives of many people, it's the question of public housing. We have in our group this evening a number of people who are deeply interested in this question and our discussion will be introduced by Mr. Ellis Ashe who is the administrator of the Boston Housing Authority. Mr. Ashe was formerly the deputy development administrator of the Boston Redevelopment Authority. He has also served as assistant regional director of the Public Housing Administration and deputy director of the Baltimore urban renewal and housing authority. It's a great privilege to present Mr. Ellis Ashe to discuss the image of public housing. Thank you Father Joyce. Last week in the city of Boston we

celebrated public housing week. Mayor John F. Collins issued an official declaration to honor the week with this title. The program of activities was designed in part to achieve any improvement in the image of public housing. The meaning of the word image however, even though it is a frequently used term, is not always clear. When applied to public housing, I confess that there are a host of possible meanings and implications that can be baffling. Obviously the quality of the public housing image needs improvement And in order to initiate our discussion. I propose to review a few of the reasons why the topic of image needs careful consideration. Most significantly I think we should be concerned about achieving a public understanding about public housing which is in accord with the facts about such housing. This approach may invite

criticism of public housing. It gives actual characteristics are offensive to anyone looking at it. The important point however is to avoid trying to establish a sham impression about public policy in an effort to demonstrate that it is 100 percent good and beautiful in every respect. Public housing isn't perfect by any means but I don't think it is as imperfect as ok should be represented. In many circumstances, the image appears to be fractured or tarnished in such a way as to invite contradictory reactions. An example here is the subject of regulations affecting tenancy. There is a fairly constant complaint about the overly regulated kind of existence to which public housing tenants are subjected. At the same time Concerns are voiced about the presence of over income families

households in which social behavior is unacceptable inadequate housekeeping standards and so on. Resolution of many of these and other typical concerns imply that more regulations are required rather than their reduction. Some impressions have no factual basis. Illustratively we still encounter the firmly expressed opinion that all tenants are required to turn off their lights at a given hour or to conform to other equally rigid regulations. Another complication is the difficulty in establishing a set of standards for evaluation which can have a reasonable measure of universal acceptance. Standards acceptable to those members of the community who do not live in public housing and will not in the future. Now contrast that with those who are present or probable tenants are remarkably different. Further

within each of these major groups means there are substantial differences in opinion. This is illustrated by a common expression of general community opinion to bless the need for public housing but to resist its introduction to any neighborhood where in the spokesman may have some direct association. Typically the reasons advanced for being negative about public housing in a given neighborhood are related to the institutionalized appearance of the housing Behind the facade of this opinion may be even stronger feelings about the people who may live in public housing. Accordingly in approaching this issue the Housing Authority must publicly tilt with the equivalent of Don Quixote's windmill knowing full well that it is not the real issue with which the authority is confronted. As a further complicating factor

even in situations where design is a real issue there is little substantial agreement. Everyone seems to have a cloudy version of a design concept which would be ideal as a living environment for other people. It is rarely possible to reduce this to a more refined listing of specific likes and dislikes; at least it is difficult to obtain much more than a viewpoint directed to high rise versus low rise or the need for a separate dining facility. As against combining the dining function with the living room area. Frequently we hear a reference to the term image maker although this term may not be used always in a complimentary manner. It does have real significance in any program where performance and results reflect the activities of people. In public housing. There are many image makers. I don't think that it is

prudent feasible or socially wise to attempt to make all of them act and speak identically. I lean to the view that the most important factor influencing the image created for most persons at a given point in time is the quality of performance demonstrated by the authority and the evidence of sincerity of intention behind that performance. May I elaborate briefly on this point. I think that the quality of performance must be linked constantly with these social objectives of the program. Public housing is a public program that can be defended as a legitimate function of government only if it genuinely contributes to the general welfare of the nation. This is the legal rationale for its existence. But I wish to emphasize its objective performance characteristics. Also the sincerity of intention that

is evident or lack of it is the factor which moves performance beyond mere compliance with legally stated objectives. Now I have stated that I lean toward this view. Perhaps this view is too abstract to be meaningful. Maybe it makes the task of good image production so difficult as to be impossible for achievement. If I am wrong I should like to be so advised. If you think I am on the right track then help me to spell it out in terms that are meaningful to the Boston community. In any event I think that there is a community wide responsibility to assist the housing authority to perform its job well and in conformance with an image that reflects as many universal values as we can define. I suggest that the important values are social in nature that is people oriented in every way possible. My short cut

terminology for this approach is to call it shelter plus housing. This means that the function of public housing is not merely that of providing shelter decent safe and sanitary housing but providing an environment where every resident has access to maximum opportunities for developing to his full capacity. Accordingly public housing must merge and identify itself with all programs that seek to identify and dignify the quality of the individual. It cannot attempt to go it alone because it is incapable on its own doing much more than to produce physical structures, maintain them, and collect rents from the tenants living in the structures. With the cooperation and involvement of other resources, A total approach to people can be attempted and I think achieved with a creditable amount of success. I

trust I have made clear what I mean by quality of performance and the sincerity of intention supporting it as being the cornerstone of good image creation. I welcome this opportunity to discuss this subject in the public arena and to receive the benefit of your advice and comments. Thank you very much Mr. Ellis Ashe for your very splendid presentation. I'm sure that our group is most anxious to enter into a very heated discussion on the main points you raised. I see that Mr. Lester Hyman, former commissioner of the Department of Commerce and now a practicing attorney of note is very anxious to assault you with the first question. Mr. HYNEMAN father let's hope we can shed more light than heat in this particular instance. But Mr. Ashe stressed the point of imagery and imagery of course concerns itself more with what things appear to be rather than what things really are. And despite the fact that we have excellent physical appearance of much of our public housing is it not true that

public housing has acquired a bad image in the in the eyes of many people because first of all the housing is located in less desirable neighborhoods physically. And secondly there's such a small variety of income levels within a project that people generally feel that those who are located in public housing are poor people disadvantaged people people we don't necessarily want to be associated with. So that if we could put public housing in better neighborhoods if we could vary the income levels within public housing perhaps the image of it would increase for the better. I think Mr. Hyman let your indications of what is responsible in part for they image of public housing are certainly fair and appropriate. There may be some others but those are significant ones. However as you say the imagery or impressions that people have in their minds about public housing.

Are the kinds of things which realistically we must deal with in the carrying out a program of this kind and so. Assuming that we take the suggestions you have have made. What. Might you or others offer in the way of suggestions to me and to a public housing official as to how you do get public housing into other neighborhoods. The answer to just one part of it, i'll make it very brief. Perhaps this. Thought thats in the mind of most people the ones a family was in public housing reaches a certain income level. They're forced to leave and therefore there's no incentive for the residents of public housing to better themselves since they may be tossed out into a situation where they cannot acquire as good housing. Now in previous conversations with you I understand that maybe this not may not necessarily be the case if that could be corrected in the public's mind perhaps the image would increase. So it's education as well as

physical condition changed. Mr. Ashe would you like to comment on Mr. Hyman's statement then we will go to another question. All right very quickly because I suspect there are many points that need to be brought up here. I was pointing out earlier that. Although it is true that usually you find these so-called income limits which require people to go out that there is no real legal requirement in the law for this to take place. Its been a practice that has developed as a part of an administrative regulation. And I personally think that it's a very antiquated kind of thing and I think that if there is a public support for trying to produce more of an income spectrum or range of income, we certainly could eliminate a number of the bad features that have prevailed in public housing and resulted in a bad image in terms which

we know exist. Mr. Bryant Rawlings has a comment. Mr. Rawlings is the editor of the Bay State Banner. Not so much a comment as several questions I'd like to ask him and correct me if I'm wrong Mr. Ashe I believe it is the policy of the housing authority that mothers with and who are receiving Aid to Families with Dependent Children are not allowed in. Projects and housing projects under the auspices of your department, is that correct? No sir, Mr. Rawlings that is not correct in fact I couldn't give you right off from from memory a precise count of households with-- where the central source of income is aid to families of dependent children but this would run actually into the thousands at the present time how now housed in the public housing developments in Boston I stand corrected, then my second question have to do with a release by the Boston branch of the NAACP last week which

charts the housing authority with violating an agreement that was arrived at between the Housing Authority and the NAACP in the in negotiation with the Mass Commission Against Discrimination two years ago. The charges at that time two years ago where many among them that there were no Negro superintendents operation on maintenance persons are in the housing authority and that there was an either unconscious, and the NAACP charged a conscious, pattern of discrimination which had permitted segregated housing, public housing to become a fact in Boston and they also at that time presented statistics from their own surveys and I think some from the Housing Authority surveys which seem to substantiate that allegation and now they have charged that despite an agreement by the housing authority to to change its procedures for placing people in projects there has been no substantial change in the

ratio ratio ratio in the housing with housing at developments in the city. Can you tell me what procedural changes have been made in terms of distributing racial groups into housing projects? Mr. Ashe? Yes sir well. The matter referred to here actually is an issue of long standing. The original complaint that was made by NAACP and join in by CORE was made through the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination and the agreement that you referred to was entered into on the 15th of November 19 63 Now the housing authority has at no time. Chosen to deny the existence of a de facto segregation situation within the pattern of occupancy throughout the the housing authority.

I think the the current differences are what is reflected in at least the wire that you referred to as being. Of moment now is as to the pace with which integration has now been achieved. Within this roughly two year period. The situation has moved from one in which there were eight or nine developments which were of all white occupancy to one in which there are now simply two of the smaller elderly developments where solely by reason of the fact that no turnover has occurred which you no longer have that you still have 100 percent white occupancy. I'd like to honor here that in this whole situation I would not want in any way

to take issue with the rights and obligations of NAACP to set up whatever standards of measurement it feels appropriate and to apply them. And if it comes out with a version as to the pace of progress and feels that is too limited Well then certainly that's that's entirely within their province and would would not differ with that at all. We're hopeful here that in fact there have been specific dates set now for sitting down with the representatives of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination and will endeavor to see if this whole set of issues cannot be resolved and certainly with that with the acceptance that the pace undoubtedly has has been too slow and we must find some ways and

means of speeding it up. Dr. Durant, if we may now have someone from the medical field? Well er Mr. Ashe I'd like to continue Mr. Hyman's Point about the fact that the environment in which you stated was the try to create an environment in which an opportunity was present for those to develop to their maximum capacities. Mr. Hyman refers to the socioeconomic fact of American life, in that one of the ways up for the poor is to mimic those they come in contact with i.e. the middle class and the upper class. And with the advent of the expressway in the 50s the middle class exodus to the suburbs. This is what created the decay of the core city in which the housing projects have a prison like atmosphere and contribute to piling the health problems on top of one another. The

aged the tuberculous the alcoholic the whole problem of ADC. If you have mimicked your next door neighbor and he's on ADC there's not much to mimic. So what has been done in terms of trying to make this what it really is a metropolitan problem. What's been done to make the suburbs live up to their responsibility to the core city. How many liberals and picketing the zoning commissions in Wellesley and Dover and Needham and Norwood and Newton and Milton and Canton and how many conservatives who live in those towns and willing to give the poor the black and the aged an economic opportunity to mimic them. Mr. Ashe would you like to reply? Well even in the brief and. Perhaps an entirely appropriate answer is that all too little has been been done along this line in fact it's been so negligible as to be a mere pittance of an obviously

what little interest there has been on this has had No no result. Unfortunately the. Perhaps that's an unfortunate choice of words. I'll retract, unfortunately I'll simply say as a matter of fact that a housing authority has jurisdiction only within the political boundaries of its own city. The Boston Housing Authority therefore has no means by which it could proceed to build public housing beyond the corporate boundaries of the city of Boston. I think that if there is time for the relief here the heart of it in addition to this. Real need for genuine citizen involvement and some good old fashioned Heckling, If you please, might be through measures of programs which are sponsored by the state and which recognize the the

entity which is Metropolitan of Boston and which are reflected at least in a very advanced sort of way in a package of legislation which has come out of a special commission on low income housing and has been considered by a joint legislative committee. I think the sensitivity to the problems which you point out here can perhaps be dealt with more responsibly at the state level. That if we therefore had some good advance state legislation with a proper attractiveness to jump over some of these jurisdictional barriers and in cooperation with the uh Real good citizen action then we could make some changes. Does anyone wish to pursue this particular subject any further? Mr. Edwin Sheehan, our distinguished author. Well I think we've agreed that the housing problem is one of the essential ingredients of the racial problem together with

education and. Other aspects including employment. I had simply two questions some time ago I believe it was last winter I had a fairly lengthy conversation with Mr Loewe the director of the Boston Redevelopment Authority and he told me that he believed rather deeply in an idea of somehow persuading the communities outlying Boston he mentioned Canton I think particularly perhaps places like Newton Norwood and so forth of allowing housing to be erected, public housing, which might attract predominantly underprivileged people and predominately negro tenants. But this would be a further way of advancing the idea of integration because even though the people living in those in that public housing might be all of one group or one race they'd necessarily mix with the neighbors, in at least a

restricted form of desegregation by attending the same churches shopping in the same areas and so forth. Now I'm wondering if anything has happened to that idea. I know that since it out this would be beyond the frontiers of Boston that there's nothing that could be done directly but has the idea been pursued at all. Well Mr. Ashe of course only responsible in Boston but we know that your interests go far beyond that, Ellis. well I don't know. I think there's a very close relationship really between your question and the one previously asked. And. Again. There are there has been very little actually accomplished because there has not been the evidence of any vigorous sustained citizens interest at the community level of these outlying cities to install public housing which would accommodate

the families of whom you speak. And secondly there hasn't been any legal mechanism by which a program of this kind could be really substantially advanced. So here again I think there is in state legislation that has been proposed, the makings of a formula at least by which resources could be made available to achieve it. On the citizen side well that's something someplace where you have to get down and see to it that each community acts. Might say parenthetically just finally here that it's very interesting in this whole picture that with all of the committees and groups and so on. That do exist in Boston and in the metropolitan area it's been very difficult to try to put a focus on the need with your site. We can't imagine the discussion of housing which the League of Women Voters would not be involved and

were delighted to introduce their vice president, Mrs. Beverly Dunne. Mr. Ashe, on his regional outlook I wondered whether I might possibly direct a question of Father Joyce and ask whether the metropolitan area Planning Council has taken up the subject at all. You're getting my functions confused here this evening Mrs. Dunne. The answer is that we have we have a committee that is studying this and is working on it. I'm not at leave to say that we have come to any satisfactory conclusion about it yet but yes we are studying it. One of the points which you brought up was the fact that possibly the state wide legislation would alleviate the situation and open some doors but you did question whether or not there had been actually the citizen participation and citizen feeling for the need for this and I wondered why has been your understanding of the ordinary citizens reaction to the need for public housing at all is there a general recognition on the part of those people who wouldn't would perhaps never need or want to live in public housing.

A recognition of the need for government help buy for low income families who can afford decent housing. Probably in your outlying communities the answer is No I thank you. To a degree it would be related to whether or not those persons had had some experiences in living in the core city. I think more universally you find in the core city of a metropolitan area a uh a willingness to strip away philosophical differences and whatever other issues may be involved and at least concede that there is a need for better housing for lower income persons and our households and I recognize that there are some kind of relationship between their own welfare and the welfare of these other people. This is more difficult obviously to to have recognized by the average citizen in the outlying community if he hasn't had that

core city experience. Well I I would be inclined to agree with this I wondered whether there are other organizations actually the Boston League of Women Voters has a strong position in favor of uh Increasing the supply of low income housing in the Boston area the State League of Women Voters of which I am a member is A does not nor the National League have a position specifically on low income housing however we have been throughout the country studying the whole problem of equality of opportunity in education and employment which Mr. Sheehan mentioned as being, and you also mention as being, tied in with all of this. In the course of all of this study we have members have come very much to the conclusion that housing is a is a very important part of the whole problem of equality of opportunity and have for themselves as individuals gone out in their communities to work on this particular issue even though it is not in a position of the League of Women Voters. Equally interesting is the fact that there has been a recognition I think on the part of the housing committees that there is

a problem involved with the low income families not only of their housing but the educational and employment opportunities so that they themselves have been working on this is this is this something which the Boston Housing Authority has done much with working over and and also I would be interested in the kind of if you try to scatter your your public housing instead of having it in specific large institutional sections What kind of feeling you have for the increase in social services which will be needed for these individuals to better the image. Well I think I think that it is so imperative that we somehow try to reduce the large aggregations of concentrations of public housing that even though it does create some additional problems of administration and the provision of various services even apart from social services I mean the just the problems

of maintenance and a lot of other things become more complicated then. But these are problems I think that can be solved and and must be solved in deference to to breaking up the aggregations that we have. What you are advancing here as a point of view is a desirable objective is completely consistent with this little term which which I like to use at least which I call shelter plus housing which recognizes that public housing isn't doing its job. In fact I would go so far as to say there is little justification for public housing in today's age. If public housing as a program doesn't move out to merge and identify with a broad cross-section. Other kinds of problems which are essentially concerned with the treat treatment of a social person and in which shall ?reiterate? The

need to provide decent shelter is taken for granted but that's just the starting point. Rather that than being the stopping point as it's been in years past this you know are two is the director of the Community Development Department of the Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce. Thank you Father I'm kind of like to take Mr. Ashe off the hook for a moment and kind of direct a general question and all of the participants here and perhaps in particular Mrs. Dunne and Dr. Durant to what I think of in a way suggested in many ways that public policy is a sense of metropolitan problem and I have a point of view that says that there are problems in a metropolitan area and then there are metropolitan problems. What I'm getting at here is that I don't think that it's proper really right to identify as a panacea a lifting of the economic barriers that may exist in some of

the suburban communities because even with those barriers lifted I don't think this is the experience of some of the fair housing groups out there. There is some difficulty in transplanting people of low income or low income categories in the absence of one the ample mass transportation facilities to employment opportunities that would be in proximity to their residence. And so that this is at best a limited approach to it. And I think in this respect that Mr. Ashe's definition of public housing which is primarily shelter and then housing, is perhaps a little bit more accurate one. I mean I always come to this conclusion other than that is that despite the bad things about public housing as we know it today the regulations the standards that some of us may artificially impose upon it the institutionalize appearance the environment that there are

waiting lists for public housing and that sometimes are concerned with the qualitative aspects of public housing makes us lose sight of the quantitative. Well I would kinda like to throw this back over to Dr. Durant and Mrs. Dunne just talking to Mr. Chenard is attacking Mrs. Dunne and Dr. Durant. Would either of you like to answer this? Mrs. Dunn would you like to add to this. Dr.? Well I thought General McCormack was solving the transportation problem before he left. But I agree that mass transportation is essential to the whole solution of this unless you're able to get these people back to the core city where they have most of them work cheaply, I agree that you haven't solved the problem, you've created another problem in the suburbs. But I think that that economic opportunities and many of the services that this is done is worried about would rapidly diminish because if you don't attack the

problem from this point of view then you're only going to perpetuate it and you're never going to get middle class to move back into the city if you can do that that's the other alternative. To get the middle class to come back to the city this is Mrs. Mr. Loeb's dream I think. But I wonder whether it will be fulfilled. Then you're never going to get them in close physical contact or social contact or improve their educational standards by by having them intermingled and integrated educationally because of the local school committee's concept of. The local neighborhood school. So I disagree with you I think this is the essence of the problem. Now lest you scatter and destroy places like the Columbia housing project it's going to perpetuate itself and the crime rate and the juvenile delinquency rate and all the other problems that are inimical both to this type of housing are going to perpetuate and get worse not better.

Well the question before us as I understand it is can the public housing of a city for example Boston be sold within the city itself. Or are we under some compulsion to perhaps disperse the public onto the suburban communities. And we've heard varying views on this. There's a new note of a comment to make on this Mr. Joseph O'Donnell the director of the Harvard trade union program one of the comments that was made by Mr. Schneider namely that a good deal of public housing is unattractive and institutionalized probably has some truth to it but prior to joining the academic union I was quite active with the building service employees in the city. They have recently supported a year developing call Academy homes which is quite an attractive beautiful place mixed tenantry outside of the fact that the post office about who want to live the mail to them as they should it appears to be quite a satisfactory sort of thing. Is this the thing Mr. Rash that we have to develop that we are concentrate more attention upon? Mr. Ashe? Well I'm familiar with academy homes and certainly well aware that a great deal of

attention was given to the design. I think that. One of the differences here is simply that academy homes or any of the other various developments of that kind. Started from scratch with the pumped-in Prod that good design was to be an essential integral part of the undertaking. Where is was the value placed on these I and I think that there that the Redevelopment Authority took this point of view with the feeling that there was a community interest in having the factor of design strongly emphasized in public housing. I think here we get back to this image problem.

That it's it's related to the very poor and keep in mind that academy homes serves a higher income group than what is is in public housing. That has somehow along the way been the conception of well because people are poor that they're not entitled to the to the best, that design as a factor of of quality isn't something that really should be made to be important. But there's no reason why public housing can't be properly designed and in fact there are illustrations all too few illustrations of well-designed public housing projects all over the country where housing authorities and local architects have got together and produced A good final building element. So I think that this can be done with the help of citizens to attach an importance to design and then we can get away from this institutionalized aspects that have been mentioned here.

But this means really shifting the image of how people think the poor, in quotes, should be treated. We have a question now from Mr. Francis Perry, a former representative in the General Court of Massachusetts and the former candidate for the governor of our commonwealth. Mr. Frank Perry. Thank you Father, I'd like to explore a little further Mr. Ashe's thinking along the lines that we've just begun to discuss. We did talk for a while about the locale of public housing and now we're starting to talk about the type of housing the design and so what they have been thoughts that that perhaps one of the flaws in public housing have has been the creation of institutionalized large projects and more recently people have been discussing public housing with along the lines of the possibility of constructing several small, relatively very small houses so to speak in established neighborhoods throughout the city and I was wondering if the housing authority has been

exploring that possibility and then further since I know I'm still talking let me direct your thinking to this matter of rent subsidies which had some life in the Congress and then had died in the whether or not what the thinking of the housing authority is in respect to the value of rent subsidies rather than in direct construction on your yes on your first question. Yes the housing authority is. Examining the possibilities of this so-called scattered site development and producing smaller developments and actually there. Are several projects now in what we call the development stage that is they're not completed their various stages of design which definitely use this kind of approach even going so far as will be illustrated

in the Castle Square development of having a building for. The use of a public housing residents elderly in this instance that will for all practical purposes be completely indistinguishable from the balance of the development. The same architect worked on it, the same facade and the same basic type of building all the way through. Oh now with with regard to some of the. Other matters that that you bring up here. I think that the rent supplement program is generally as far as public housing people are are concerned and supported as a matter of principle. The specific mechanics the how the Rent supplement program as it was put before Congress were criticized

by a number of people in public housing a century because it was felt that they were rather unworkable and I'd venture the opinion here that what has happened in some of this sort of of the big hassle and snafu which the program now finds itself demonstrates that. Maybe the viewpoint of some of the public Housers should have been given a little bit more attention. All essentially they were trying to do is to straighten out some of the mechanics and make it a more workable kind of thing. But in principle yes. I think that there is no conflict between the rent supplement program and the use of the public housing program the formula for the production of public housing as as we know. Our next questioner is Mr. Bernard Boardman who is an attorney in the former president of the Greater Boston Junior Chamber of Commerce.

Mr. Boreman. Mr. Ashe made a comment that when you provided shelter you had reached the starting point not the stopping point immediately we stopped you on that point I think you had to get back to what is a starting point. Tonight like like many academic I still call a good group we've been talking about the way things ought to be. The fact is that housing in Lincoln public housing in Lincoln or Weston is a long way off and even when it's constructed you'll still have Columbia Point and the question before my mind is what are we doing today to make a housing project like Columbia Point more livable. In particular problems that come to my mind I think we're talking about citizen action tonight as well as housing itself. In order to get a better environment there I think it's recognized you need some kind of social worker helping people. Especially where they quoted statistic there is that one third of the families are presently fatherless. Secondly people never get much help from the outside until they learn how to help themselves. So in a place like that you have to develop a citizen

action group as such. You have to teach people how to accomplish things and how to speak for themselves and how to deal with the regulatory authorities as well. So we have the problem of what are we doing to make things more livable in the projects we now have. What are we doing to provide social assistance rather than just shelter. What are we doing to teach people to help themselves through civic action. And I might say that at least an illustration might be helpful to see the impact of this question and that would be very much taught dumptruck the issue in Columbia point where finally one little child was killed there and women lay in the street in front of dump trucks. They were able to do something about making their project habitable but they still have to take a street car to get to a supermarket and the prices still go up in the local markets it's alleged on relief day when the checks come due so what are we doing about situations like Colombia point today instead of-- what is your starting point there? Believe it or not I'm very happy that you brought up your point in connection with

Columbia point because whether or not it's the position from which we start there are whatever are the motivations I think that's the most exciting things that are happening in the entire Boston Public housing program are taking place in Colombia and I'll go out on the limb far enough to say that if we have reasonable support to carry through programs that have already been initiated initiated that how come another two or three years that notwithstanding the very distressing physical setup with which we start that Columbia Point will be. One of the most sought after developments among applicants for public housing in the city of Boston specifically and I know we don't have very much time. The housing authority has been working very closely with the private developers who are putting up a new shopping center immediately next

door. This is actually under construction the present time which will get rid of a lot of the distressing problems on shopping. And we're endeavoring to create some good entranceways and vistas and opportunities for easy circulation here and I must say they the private operators have been most cooperative. There has been a complete reorganization of the Settlement House program which has sponsored a great number of the services of a recreational nature there in the past. So that now more money is available more staff is available. Specifically we are making more space available through the conversion of a number of dwelling units into a community activity space. Next as compared with any other section in the entire city of Boston there is already pledged more money coming out of the Economic Opportunity Act

for Columbia Point than any other section of the city. Highmarked of course by the very wonderful in my view an imaginative undertaking sponsored by the Tufts medical school which will combine, really, a citizen organizations citizen action program with a home medical care program and will actually be spending upwards of half a million dollars a year on this one program alone in Columbia Point. And we have here taken an entire dwelling building and and are converting that. So that this complete facility can be installed. There are -- we have installled installed as part of the staff of the Housing Authority now what persons we call tenant relations aides to assist in the direction the programming the identification of some of

social needs. There is an actual sub office of the welfare department physically located now in Columbia Point so they no longer have to go to some distant office. The connection can be established right there. Well this could go on. I'm obviously rather enthusiastic about what has been initiated I don't think you see the full impact yet and you won't for some time. But things are happening at Columbia Point and I think one of the real. Prods to action here was the dump situation. Want to give that a great deal of credit. It's my-my comments here of enthusiasm for what's happening is in no way to detract from the pertinency of your remarks as to the need for citizen action and involvement. Ladies and gentlemen I have taken the liberty of inviting to this discussion a small group

of honors students from Boston College who attend a seminar of mine on the problems of the urban community. I felt sure that they would learn a great deal from this discussion and this would make my conscience feel better. I wonder if they have some comments to make at this time. Mr Edwin Hines. To digress a minute if we returned to a point made by Mr. Perry. I was wondering about this rent subsidy plan. It seems like a worth while and imaginative plan for the future but it seems to demand a bit of community support behind it has been I was wondering what kind of preliminary work is being done to ensure the support? In Boston out outside of the interest of a number of the professional and real estate organization groups, I would say very little. If we're talking now about what is called the the rent Supplement program. There's been a great deal of confusion of course today as to who actually would be the local administrators agent for the

program in Boston or for that matter in any other community. It would be my personal opinion That the failure to identify quickly and early in the game the identity of a local administrative agent is maybe one of the reasons why this thing is taking so long to get off the ground because. It adds up that no one is really responsible. There's a lot of interest on the part of many people but no one really has any particular responsibility at the local level to do anything at the present time. So it's a succinctly, Very little has been done to develop community support specifically for this program. Ladies and gentlemen, may I remind you that the main thrust of this series is to see how we can get affective citizen action in good causes, and specifically in this discussion we want to see what we can do effectively to do what must be

done to improve the housing situation. I was impressed when Mr. Ashe gave his main talk and he discussed in passing the wide responsibility of community help that is necessary to get good housing. So I wonder if any of our members could indicate what they think might be done specifically in this area. I wonder if you Mr. Tom Sullivan might care to comment on this on some other aspects I know you have all kinds of exciting ideas in this subject. I think we need to develop public support of public housing. There isn't a person at this table tonight who couldn't categ- um make a long list of the faults of public housing. I certainly can make such a list but I would like to state quite clearly. Public housing has been a good program in the United States. There's been a good program in Boston for 30 years has provided decent housing safe housing better housing then hundreds of thousands of people who live in this city in the last 30 years would have had

otherwise. I think it's important that when we talk about the shortcomings we stress the fact that basically it has been a very useful program. And I think we use that as a point of departure. And I think we have to recognize that today there is much talk about low income housing. I think it's important that we recognize that distinctions need to be drawn. One can develop low income housing that does still not reach the need of the family who characteristically has been helped by public housing. And we must ask whether or not the machinery will get additional housing built where it is needed. And I think in order to get the citizenry going we have to recognize that public housing is a political issue. It will be resolved in the political arena. And I think we must quite candidly recognize that it has a opponents today as it has had opponents historically. Who fight it philosophically as well as its shortcomings and recognizing this I think we can begin to mount the

kind of citizen support that is required. I think we have to develop a real sense of need. I for one am convinced that there is still a continuing need in the city of Boston for the kind of shelter that only public housing makes possible. And until that need passes I think we had better muster community support for the building of public housing. Why has public support lacked been lacking of late and I think it has when you realize that Boston hasn't built a single unit of family public housing in something like 10 years. I think you must recognize that the people who are waiting to get into public housing today are different people their families are tend to be on public assistance. They tend to be minority families. In effect they tend to be families who enjoy less effective political support than the families who needed public housing in the 30s and the 40s and I think we must learn to reconstruct the political support that will bring public housing into existence in our city and in our metropolitan area.

I'm afraid in introducing Mr. Sullivan I neglected to say that he's a former member of the Boston city council and currently the executive secretary of the Boston Citizens Advisory Committee. I wonder Mr. Rash might we hear a comment from Mr. John Baldwin who is a vice president of the firm of Kenyon and Eckhardt and then you might like to respond to both these comments. I'm going from going to give you something to respond to Mr. Ashe, I'm going to resist the temptation at the moment to ask a specific question and hope hopefully make a constructive suggestion. And that is this it seems to me that you have an excellent product, I'm surprised to hear that you feel it has a bad image. I think it's that's very simple result of uh It's meeting a very specific need. That's the reason that you have a good product. But let's admit it's a very complicated product and frankly I feel in many respects it is too complicated to use a standard media public relations. So the story seems to me therefore that the selection of these media become very very important and it also occurs to me that the media should be should consist of

influentials first rather than a broad public spectrum but should consist of influentials from a primary target. Therefore these influentials to me should be the churchmen. It seems to me that there's a communications vacuum from the from the pulpit with regard to this issue of public housing and that churchmen of all faiths have a very deep obligation to face the realities of their community and face the problems of community action. Therefore I would like to suggest that perhaps the term churchmen be the primary targets for selling this good basic story with a good product and public housing. Well I'm afraid time prevents my coming to the defense of the churchmen, could you make a very brief comment Ellis and then I think we'll try to summarize this and that's all we have time for? I think certainly here that to leave on the note of recognition that public housing has made a contribution is certainly welcome as far as as I am concerned

and I think the final observation is simply that the tying in of the Church Father is is something where I do believe they've probably been as indifferent as the rest of the community so I'll try to rise to your suggestion and see what we can do about it. Thank you. Well I'm very happy to know that this responsibility confronts the church I think is the most important responsibility and I hope this activity will increase. It would be very difficult to summarize the things that have been said to night I think we all agree there should be housing it does not go far beyond that. I think we realize the importance of correcting some of those apprehensions about it. The question has been made this discrimination still exist and clearly this should be reduced so far as possible perhaps and put in place. The question has been raised should this be looked upon as a metropolitan question. Personally I think it should. I don't know how the homily. Supply of one city can look at that apart from that of the whole community. The question of

design of public project is clearly important. and fortunately something that's done in this direction. The question of Columbia Point almost inevitably came up and we're delighted to know that's a very exciting activity is taking place here also. Above all we know that community support is needed and we know that in spite of many criticisms the role of public housing is extremely important and excellent things are being done. We're most grateful to Mr. Ellis Ashe for leading our discussion this evening and I'm sure you have contributed to Mr. Ellis Ashe a very great deal indeed. Thank you very much.