WGBH Journal; Tuition Assistance Plan, Teacher Returning To High School, Education And Economic Democracy, Elaine Noble Interview

Good afternoon and welcome to GBH Journal. I'm Bill capice. Education is a subject of three features on today's show we'll have a report on some of the alternatives being discussed in Congress to aid families and students with the cost of higher education. We'll hear about a high school teacher who decided to spend a semester as a student in high school. And some excerpts from a discussion of education and economic democracy. And to close an interview with Massachusetts a representative Elaine noble. There is almost unanimous agreement that the cost of higher education in this country is unreasonably high. And at the present time both the White House and Congress are

working towards legislation which would aid families and students with these costs. Where there is not unanimous agreement however is in determining the best method in which to distribute these aid. Congress is currently debating the merits of direct tax credits vs. increased financial aid. Disagreement is also a reasons around the question of whether this aid should be extended to people attending private parochial schools. The main issue which Congress is now considering focuses on how best to distribute aid to families with children enrolled in schools of higher education a need which seems to be perceived by all. Here with more information on this question is reporter David Tuller. Congress is currently debating two alternative methods of tuition relief for post-secondary school education. Both are directed primarily towards families in the middle income tax bracket. Russell refiner from the New England regional office of education explains why such assistance is necessary.

Up till this time we might describe it this way. You had federal programs that were assisting the lower income family and you had people at higher income brackets who could afford higher education and this larger middle majority were not able to go to college. And and they also were not eligible for other programs for which the lower income families were eligible. So what we're talking about here is an effort to provide assistance for those middle income families and their sons and daughters. There are significant differences between the two proposals being discussed. President Carter's tuition assistance bill would expand already existing federal financial aid programs for post-secondary school education. These programs were originally designed for students from low income families. However more and more people are applying for federal financial aid as educational costs continue to rise through increased funding carders bill it would raise eligibility requirements for these programs to

include students from middle income families. The second form of tuition relief under discussion is the proposed tax credit system. In contrast to a program of direct financial aid to students this would allow a family to pay less taxes for each child in post-secondary school. There seems to be a move in Congress toward some form of tax legislation at least partly because of the broad base public support. John K is a director of financial aid at the New England School of Law explains why the idea has such wide appeal. Well the tax proposal the tuition credit proposal simply mean that you pay less tax on the After you complete the IRS 10:40. In that sense in a sense it you pay less tax. It's really to help the parent whose child is in school rather in a direct way to help a student attend school. Obviously it has the same effect but I think it's the bases of its political appeal is that it appears to be a way of paying less taxes. Well is there any way to insure that the parents would use this to

help for the for the children's education as opposed to the tuition bill idea which would be directly applied to education. No there's not strictly speaking but to say or to implies perhaps that this is an objection to this. This proposal I think is the state in effect that financial aid officers in the federal bureaucracy know better what to do with people's money to send their kids through school than the people themselves do. It's time now for the federal government to stop taking money out of the hands of taxpayers going to be middle or high income levels and simply that from now on the people want to control their own money. But you are clueless political is partly in response to the fact that there's so much pressure in home districts about the added taxes of the Social Security bill that congressmen feel that in the election year they're going to take something away and that that that's a fact that dramatically that they have to be able to go back and give something back in return. And they're looking at tax credit as a kind of an easy simple thing to give to people.

Jerry Gibson is director of Cisco services at Harvard University. Like many other university officials he is concerned about the implications of a tax credit system. Under the provisions of the direct tuition assistance bill most of the new funds would go to students from families with incomes under $25000 under a tax credit plan. It is estimated that families with incomes of over $25000 would receive over 35 percent of the credits. Gibson points out that current financial aid programs are geared to individual needs. Well a tax credit plan would provide the same advantage to our families regardless of income level or family circumstance flat tuition tax credit which is being proposed is clearly something that's not sensitive to cost in any way. Not sensitive to any kind of differences in family circumstances. The student provision is not responsive to class. Student is now calculated if there are unusual family

medical expenses for example if special hardships if there's a mother working in a family all of these are taken into account in the calculation of their work. And so it seems to me that student aid is far more sensitive to the financial needs of a family as a kind of across the board tax. Another major criticism of tax credit legislation is that the cost of both public and private post-secondary education is so high and rising so quickly that even the most generous tax credit would not represent much of a help. Furthermore there is some concern that schools will simply raise their fees to garner the benefits of the tax credit whenever suspicions in the back of a lot of people's minds is the fact that a flat tuition tax credit for families who are sending their children to college or to post-secondary vocational schools that there will be a great temptation on the part of the school simply to increase their class or their prices just

by the amount of the tax credit. That would essentially not affect their relationships one with another and it's very likely that instead of families being advantaged by the tuition tax program that this will be a form of kind of institutional aid in which the institutions will gather that the amount of the tax credit the danger is that it cost so much money that it may begin to undermine the existing student aid program. Jerry Gibson director of fiscal services at Harvard University. Most local financial aid official sure Gibson's upper hench is about a tax credit system. They maintain that Carter's direct tuition assistance proposal representing a 40 percent increase in funding for financial aid programs is better suited to the needs of individual students. There are currently several versions of the two alternatives being discussed in Congress and it is unclear at this point what the outcome will be. But no matter what happens it is clear that legislators are responding to the demands of their large middle class constituencies for

support in sending their children to school for GBH Journal. This is David Tyler. Ellen is a teacher at Lincoln-Sudbury High School recently participated in a rather unusual experiment. She decided to set her teaching position and it rolled as a student for one semester in the same school where she teaches. The experience very educational from many points of view. John Morgan spoke with Ellen recently and prepare this report. A lot of the other teachers in the school commented you know they can hardly talk to me anymore because I sounded like a student and you know I griped like a student I.

I felt like a student all American high schools are divided into two parts. There are the teachers and then there are the students. It's all very cut and dry the teachers teach and the students get taught in those roles. Solid constant unchanging are rarely challenged. That was until Ellen glans a high school teacher and Lincoln Sudbury Massachusetts stepped forth with her proposal. She offered to give up all those earthly privileges of a teacher to become a high school student temporarily. Took a whole semester and I spent it as a student in the school where I had been teaching for six years and I saw that as a big challenge and that it would be a chance for me to find out some questions that I had been curious about. The biggest question was Why don't kids seem to respond more to what we are doing in the school why don't they seem to care about what we're trying to teach them. And I thought a lot about how I could try to find out the answer and finally decided that the best way would be to be a student

myself. Ellen realized right from the start that the entire project was a risk changing overnight from full time teacher to full time student. She describes how she went from Professor Jekyll to student Hyde. I was known in the school. And beyond that I'm not 17 I'm not looking for a boyfriend. I don't have pressures about getting into college and my parents aren't sort of pressuring me. But still I thought that just by going to the classes eating with the kids going to the bathroom with the kids not having an office just going through the whole experience as much as I could that I would be able to begin to understand what it feels like to be a student at Lincoln-Sudbury right now. Ellen was surprised by what she found in the classroom and the biggest surprise was that not much had actually changed since her own high school years in the middle 60s. First of all I think that in the classes not much has really changed that the classes are pretty traditional in terms of the teacher standing

up in front of the class. The class is being pretty much teacher centered. And the kids kind of sitting back and being pretty passive. And I think that the passive A-T stood out as really something that we should try to undo as much as we can because I don't think that kids really learn that well when they're just absorbing. I think when you actively work with the materials when you remember it. But what about the students themselves. Was it possible for them to suspend their own expectations of a teacher and relate to Al and to share their feelings with her to believe in her. In fact I had nightmares before I started this about who's going to be my friend where is I going to hang out. I would go around to the classes and take them and then usually most of the kids would say oh and what are you doing here. And I would explain to them what I was doing. I think some of them were a little skeptical at first but over the weeks they got used to having me in the class and I participated just like a kid. I

wasn't over eager. I I was a pretty typical student I know I participated I sometimes didn't do my homework. I avoided situations just like kids do I manipulated my way out of things just like they do. And I think that. Just because I was in the situation with them and because daily they were seeing me in their classes. They grew to trust me. The reactions of the other teachers at Lincoln-Sudbury High School were also important. How did they react to Alan's unorthodox behavior. At first a number of them were quite skeptical. I think they thought that this was a waste of money and that I wouldn't find anything out or if I would find anything out they wouldn't be able to apply it. But I worked very closely with the teachers whose classes I was in I would usually meet them about once a week I think and just tell them what to me as a student seemed to go well and what didn't go well. You know I'd say on Tuesday I didn't understand when you were talking about this or the homework

was too much or this was boring and I was pretty honest with them but also supportive of them and I tried to make what I consider to be constructive suggestions for how they could make their classes better. Were they threatened by you in your comments. I think some were especially at first. But I think I learned over the semester how to give people. Feedback without being threatening. And I think to their credit almost everybody on the staff responded in the same way. The novelty of Alan's experiment has worn off but the big questions still remain. What did Ellen glans learn. What did she gain by becoming a high school student for a semester. Was anything concrete accomplished that will change the future quality of high school education at Lincoln-Sudbury High School and perhaps even across the country. Ellen glance says yes. I wrote several reports about my experiences and I think that affected people a lot more than I expected them to. People said that they read them that they've tried out various suggestions I made that they've they've really

thought about what they're doing. I also started a discussion group with students and teachers together talking about various issues in the school for GBH Journal this is Joan Morgan. Stephen died she is a professor of sociology at the University of Oregon and is also the director of the Labor and Education Research Center at that school. He was in Boston recently and spoke at Harvard University on the topic of economic democracy in the workplace. A point which he stressed in his discussion. This is our concept of democracy and the work I've formed and reflected in the education which we receive. Now I can find he was present at the discussion which is the subject of this report.

What happens when people who are raised in the context of a culture which espouses the notion of democratic participation particularly with respect to the political sphere begin to recognize somewhat of a contradiction in their lives when they begin to realize that there are not necessarily any assumptions about democratic functioning during the eight hours a day one third of their lives they spend at work. Professor Deutsch feels that in the past 10 to 20 years more and more people have been coming to just such a realization and he's been attempting to assess the implications of this phenomenon in its relation to social change. During his talk he spoke of the development of the trend toward economic democracy in this country. Something clearly happened around 974 75 minutes increased. I would submit quite substantially in the last couple of years and that is that the concept that democracy should apply to people people's lives in all of their spheres is increasingly being accepted that the schizophrenia between were pretty

active participants in shaping our lives in our neighborhoods or in our cities in the political process. But we should be passive acquiescent and should be molded by others deciding our lives for us during that part of our life. That's in schools or in the workplace is increasingly being challenged. And that those movements of opposition of the 1960s that said hey let us take back the control of our lives in our neighborhoods in our schools etc. those movements now began to connect with the reforms for economic change. Democracy in the job control over one's work life. And I think there are all kinds of evidence of that. Things like the National Consumer Cooperative Bank Act. The efforts to set up state banks in different states around the countries which would provide the capital for workers to set up their own cooperative enterprises.

The bill just introduced into the house in job creation and job protection and community Stabilization Act which is designed to try and speak to those communities that New England has had more than its fair share. We're in it a plant a factory closes down by some corporate decision made in Chicago or New York or wherever in the whole economical life of the community drops out. A piece of legislation that's going to try and provide the capital for Communities and Workers to intervene in those kind of situations save those those jobs save those enterprises and restructure them as a joint community and worker owned enterprises. Professor Deutsch points out that the movements of the 1960s as movements for social change focused a good deal of attention on school reform. The forms which education has taken in America however are historically bound up with the process of industrialization and the development of corporate capitalism. He points out further that many of the values promoted in the organization and content of American education are determined by the demands of the economic system. He comments more specifically about the relationship

between education economic democracy and social change. What I want to suggest is a real contradiction between the kind of liberating potential in schools the kind of busts open one's head if I can use that cliche and opens people up to the concept of taking control over their lives and growing and developing versus the kind of constrictive constraining environments in the school situation that that lead to tracking in the schools and placing of people in certain kind of categories and shaping people so they will accommodate and fit into the economic realities that are waiting for them when they leave the school. What that leads me to and in the way of a conclusion as a conclusion and I think that is best illustrated if you want a single word that suggests this in the book by Martin carno and Henry 11 called the limits of educational reform.

And I think carno and Levon have suggested in fact that there are clear limitations to what you can do in terms of reforming schools that schools are a microcosm of the larger society and one should continue to chip away internally in the way in which educational programmes are delivered structured but that you're not going to really democratize schools you're not going to reorient people for their post-school experiences unless that post school experience is reorganized. Professor Deutsch believes that substantial social change is possible only through changes both in working life and in schooling. And although there is currently much activity in this country on both those fronts it points out that old patterns do not disappear overnight. Even if the rate of experimentation and industrial democracy democracy were to move very quickly in the next five or ten years much more quickly than the last few years it would be naive at best

to believe that suddenly we would have transformed our culture and come out very very you know a very different place from where we are now. In a short period of time in our culture is a distinctly non egalitarianism culture. Although we pride ourselves on many features of the culture that suggest egalitarians we really believe in distributive justice. We to the core of our culture believe you deserve you get what you deserve. I think we've got to deal with what this culture is as a culture and that's the link with education. The degree to which those people working around schools in the role of the role of schools as a lifelong culture making institutions. Professor to which is lecture was part of a continuing series of lectures sponsored by the Project on the kibbutz and collective education at Harvard for GBH Journal. This is Erica funky.

Some say that running for public office is addicting and in Massachusetts seems especially true for political aspirants abound in this year's many local and state elections. Elaine noble who presently represents the 6th District in the Massachusetts House of Representatives has plans to announce her candidacy for the Senate seat now held by Edward Brooke. Reporter Becky roar spoke recently with Representative novel about her Boston district and her aspirations to the United States Senate. If you look at the district I represent now in many ways is a reflection of not only what out there but a reflection of a lot of people in the state that have been left out by the government planners and have been let down by people who really tried to. Structure of government in a very political way. And what

I've had to do from the first time that I was elected was really be a voice or an advocate when those people who are disenfranchised are those people who are left out of government planning. That's why it was important to build some advocacy groups and sort of destroy and demystify what a state rep does and give some power back to the people that I represent who really had properly been represented in 50 years. And so I'm delighted that they've not only learned and have learned with me and I with them about how we work together in terms of demystifying the process but but manipulate and use a process to our advantage but also learn how to become political people to help us increase that influence within in those three processes. So you had a great deal of success with the advocacy movement. What have been your biggest disappointment. In the statehouse. I think probably my biggest disappointment is that it takes so long. I think I was

naive when I first went in and thought that things would happen tomorrow. And government does work very slowly but if you're consistent and you keep at it it can work. And I think that that's probably the most disappointing and probably the most frustrating thing for me the biggest disappointment in terms of myself and biggest growing point for me is that I went into the State House believing that. I could tell you everything that was wrong with the process but it was infinitely more difficult to come up with answers. And part of that answers when you propose programs is that I've had to deal with the fact that if I'm going to propose something the cost of a line item or money I've got to be able to tell folks where that line item is. I've got to be able to come up with alternative ways that don't cost a great deal of money just because programs are terrific and great and

should exist. They're not going to exist unless you also provide the mechanism that would create a mechanism that funds them. Why did you decide not to run again for the house. And if you look at the redistricting plan what you'll see is that in my district since if you look at the people who think philosophically similar they all came. A borning Frank both of whom I've helped and Barney who helped get elected in the first place. You will see that my district as it exists now is really somewhere between Mel's district in Barney's district. So what I was put in was that whole political framework of saying who do I want to face off on. It made more sense to me to say hey why don't you have the seat. And I'm going to do other things like run for the United States Senate and work together concert that in your mind when you decided not to run. I had been thinking about staying in government. We had put together a launch out of the City Council reform but I really don't think that.

It was born as often said one of the strange things about running for the council to two worst fears one is that you may lose and one you may win because it's a strange place to be in government today. I mean I have no curiosity about that whatsoever. And it looked to me when I started talking to people about Brock that he was most vulnerable and got some other people to do when he comes in the polls that show those vulnerabilities and all of the people that I have talked to who are much more formidable and by that I mean formidable who have run statewide before who are capable of running who have a mechanism already set up cordons through it and I said if you're not going to do it I'm going to do it. Do you think it's a long shot. My how your life has been about longshots I don't think it's nearly as difficult as a lot of people thought especially three months ago. A lot of people who said oh you're so opposite great for doing this. You know are now volunteering and offering help.

How are you going to approach it what are the key issues you want to emphasize going to campaign on that. The same philosophy that I'll be campaigning in the primary that I really see that US junior senator slot is one that should be the nuts and bolts and the key person for putting some. Brings in federal monies back into the states and a key person to work with those cities and towns local officials as to what their problems are. There is no way with a Kennedy in the Senate that one can have the international flavor or the international posture that he does. It seems to me and it plays to my interest in the things that I care about a great deal anyway that it that you really don't need someone who holds the pastor of the Roman Senate. But rather somebody who demystifies that ring really brings a lot closer to people and it's an extension of my philosophy now which is to really help people learn about an office that you occupy and you use

those mechanisms of that occupancy to help them get more control of their own lives and build a stronger advocacy groups that are ultimately hold you as a senator more accountable. For Thursday the 20th of April 1978 that's GBH Journal the regional news magazine heard Monday through Friday at 4:30 p.m.. But user and editor for The Journal is magic I heard today the engineer Michael Garrison And I'm Bill Katniss have a dress on Michael but they're really thrilling varies day.