Say Brother; 50

Good evening. This is Jim Crow. Tonight on say brother we'll be discussing a new library being built in the devastation area. Talking with former State Representative Michael Haynes and a candidate next week special election George Johnson. Dudley Station is the crossroads of the black community. Daily thousands of people pass through the station on their way to work to shop to visit friends and relatives. Recently the area has undergone a great deal of development. First the new boys club and presently the government center. Most of us know that a courthouse and a police station. Will occupy a substantial part of the area. But how many of us know that the third building will be a new library. Presently the Roxbury Community is serviced by the Mission Hill the Eggleston the memorial and the Mount Pleasant branch libraries. None of these has the quality or quantity of books essential to a good library. The reference and research capability of these branches cannot support the needs of the varying levels of students in the community. There is a need for a library that is easy to get equipped with

modern materials for study and research on all levels. Only the community can determine how such a library should service. Its educational needs. In 1968 a number of Roxbury residents and city officials met to discuss a new library for the Roxbury area. This new branch was to be placed in the proposed civic center on Dudley Street. Out of this meeting came the Roxbury library committee. Say brothers Russ Tillman speaks with Miss Beverley Gray of Boston University's African Studies library and Mr. Byron Rushing of the Joint Center for in a city change. Byron why was it necessary to form a library committee. Well I think the Boston Public Library came into the community in no different way than a number of governmental institutions when they feel that they have a program that will be of some value to the black community if you know they can come in dig a hole put up the building put in the program

that's bad. Unfortunately things have changed for them unfortunate fortunate for us and black people are demanding a say in the whole planning phase and the whole functioning of an institution that comes into the Roxbury area. Ben is it important to have community cooperation and planning of facilities such as a library. I think so and following up what has just been said I feel there is many voices within the community as possible should be heard in an effort to to make this not just another building but definitely a viable community project and this. Holds forth in regard to collection personnel building layout and so forth. By who decided where the library would be placed in and what it would be like initially. The original plans came out of the Boston Redevelopment Authority's planning

office as part of the Washington Park or renewal area. How long ago was that bar. And well I'm not sure when they first thought of it and when they first thought of a civic center the civic center being ordered and the police station there courthouse and this library I guess that gave it more of the civic kind of flavor. But of course as you know urban renewal has been going it has been planning for this area since 64 63 64. When did the Joint Center get involved in this one thing. Well after the group of parents were all denies it came together they were looking for places for two in the community to get support. Both in how to run this kind of operation that they were starting a kind of ad hoc citizens group and also where they could get advice on how to negotiate with the number of authorities that one has to negotiate to to participate and in any kind of operation like this one they came to the Center for inner city change for that kind of help.

Well when they came to the center did the community see the the site and the design of the library as something that they wanted in their community. This side presents a problem. It's an excellent site because it's you know Dudley Station is as everyone says you know the crossroads of Roxbury there's only one other place where you want to have if you're going to put a library or you know any kind of facility if you want a number of black people to be able to come to easily that's the place to put it. But also of course the planners for that area had decided to place a police station there and the courthouse and the police station the courthouse took up the largest part of the area. Leaving a small triangular area for the library. Now there was some discussion of moving the library site to some somewhere else but it was felt that if the design could be changed then it would

still benefit the community have a library there. You know given the proximity of the of the police station it is the design of the actual physical plant and its location important. In. You know in planning a library can you just. Our libraries were really pretty standard. Like most university buildings they seem to be all of goth and dark addiction thrown up somewhere. Well I think that the the design the building design is certainly a very important thing and especially in this particular case I think that the community might want to have more than just a library in the traditional sense. We might see things like a conference room room for smaller children and so forth. And I think one thing about the place of a library is one of the values of the two other branches the two branches that are going to be consolidated to become part of this new library when it's when it's built is that there are off

streets and one is in the Morial high school and you know so and it's not in the area we have there's a lot of traffic. And in terms of the design of the building I think that the two things that the people on the committee are concerned about one is that the design be open and inviting that people can feel that this is not a mausoleum that you know it's something you can come into it you know there. There is some glass that you can look into it and you know and you're drawn into it for that reason we the committee felt that the main doors which originally were to open onto a kind of courtyard that would also be the entrance to the police station. You see that that should be changed in the orientation should be toward the walk. Warren Street so that people would just feel free to come in and not feel that they have to go by the police station to get into the library. How close is the community worked with the. Department of public facilities in the Boston Public Library people in getting their wishes.

Well it clearly said several meetings with both of those agencies and most recently they've met with the public facilities commission. We're presently waiting for the public facilities commission to draw up a new what they call space diagram to determine how much space is needed for a building. That. The kind of building that is being proposed by the community group in terms of the architectural design of the building. The community group is also concerned that it be have. A motif that is different from most buildings that we see into an African motif if possible. You know I don't know how you would just an African motif to the kind of weather we have. But I think it's possible you know and I think that that you know we should be looking in those kind of imaginative kind of areas architectural libraries relation to the community be. In what respect exactly right. Well what the library will be you know part of

the community used by the community. So how should it fit into the community. You know as a as a as a professional and as a black individual you know what would you like to see from this and we're going to stick a robbery on your block. Well I'd like to see see it be more than just a library just a house for books. Perhaps it could be more of a community. Meeting House kind of thing I think as we had mentioned before conferences could be held there. We could have speakers there. We could have exhibits which are relevant to that community I think that many of the libraries in the area do have these kinds of things but they don't have that much in drawing attraction for the people that we have. We hope to be serving. BB How do you as a member of the Weinberg committee just time the U.S. The why bring in relation to the community. I think it has to do two things I think. One it has to be a superb branch library. You know it has to have all the things a branch libraries have audiovisual materials for record collections plus a good collection broad collection of

books for children and teenagers. You know young adults old adults you know everybody that. That. Collection be. Manned by a staff that understands the community and is willing to get out of the building. I think there has to be a real kind of you know we have to have librarians with with the whole outreach kind of program who are willing to you know go and talk to community organizations deposit books and other places in the community and get. People interested in what is available in the library. Now the other part of the. Internal kind of structure the library. I think that it's gone. That has to happen. And will be unique for this library is that this library should how one of the largest and finest afro american collections in the area. You know I think what we're asking for is that. The. Collections that the Boston Public Library has accumulated on African and African

materials be deposited in Roxbury. That this library be to the Boston Public Library what the schönberg collection is to the New York Public Library. Well you're an expert and Afro-American works in the development collecting there of how do you feel about placing as a professional place in total after all collection in a particular library such as a Roxbury library. I feel that this new library should be an excellent research facility for people in the area and perhaps. Partially a drawing card to bring people into the community. But I don't believe that I agree with the idea to pull material out of the Boston Public Library main branch downtown into the library. I think that we should have a research collection fun enough for people who are interested in the black experience to do why shouldn't we pull in knowing what you want people to do research. And in this new library which is going to be built but we have to think about space requirements and also we have to think about the fact that there are a number of people

who are doing research from other disciplines who are interested in the black experience perhaps perhaps just peripherally who would want that kind of material. And I think it could be housed down. Are there any other you know things this just seems to be a fan of the film I had a sort of a convenience thing. Are there any things more technical. In the handling and storage and maintenance of a special collection in this case especially after a collection that that this particular that a branch library would not be able to handle. Well I think you're hitting on to archival material are you is that would what you're referring to aren't the total dimensions and I'm assuming that we we get it all. You know. Well number one I think that there are space problems. Number two when you get into your special material on archival material you have to have special people who are trained to handle this. I don't I think this could be handled by the people downtown. There's no reason at the present time perhaps to have.

A double kind of function in within the city and I think that one could develop a very fine collection without pulling pulling material out. Now when you talk about developing a fund collection what would go into this collection. I don't suggest Afro-American material I've seen material relating to the entire black experience throughout the world from the Caribbean from Africa and not just just black people perhaps we could get to even into Chinese kind of material and so forth all over the world. And I think that it should cover a wide range of wealth material for people of various abilities wealth for your children all the way up through people doing doing rather sophisticated kind of research. I see it. Containing your books your bound volumes periodicals newspapers are political ephemeral kinds of material. Along with with your microfilms and so forth.

Are there any problems of acquisition and picking up material of this nature. The little paper from you know the end of it is for example if you're dealing with African material you have to understand first of all that the book trade there has not been really established as of yet. There are no what we call book dealers so that for each piece which is required you have to write or contact each individual publisher. I think that there's an analogy between this and also some of the ephemeral kinds of material which we see here and Roxbury which I assume would go into the library. There are a number of organizations which are going to graphing various things. And at the present time I don't think that there's any one particular collecting point. And that also presents a problem which this library perhaps could take care of. Now that raises an interesting question one of another interest that we have in the library is our interest in developing in archives because of our work with a number of community organizations we've seen that. Very valuable

material of the paper's letter's mimeograph documents and pamphlets and so on. Either get lost or stolen or destroyed somehow. And if you ask most community organizations where you papers from five or six years ago they don't know and I'm sure you know well someone put them in somebodies basement and you know I don't know where they are. We've invited a number of organizations to deposit their papers at the center. We know that. This is not this is a temporary facility that we're not going to be able to get to if this election is successful we're not going to be able to always How's this material going to be looking for someplace else to house it. Now on one hand we can look for a place outside of the community that houses number of black organizations that will let you down. They don't want their papers out of the black. Right so it's very important you know that we can offer them. Just like any archival collection offices the people who donate to it protection you know protection not only in who comes in and sees the material but that

you know the material is not going to go floating around and you know there are a number of organizations that we'd like to have the papers of we don't want anybody coming in looking at their papers but they should still should be able to have their things housed in a safe place and also have dematerialised catalog. I think that there's an important point that we can pick up here also there are a number of organizations which are concerned with security and time limits as to when one can start looking at their at their material and perhaps we could say that there's a 20 year time limit etc. etc. and really often in this kind of security with this is that the collection of developing a library that has very much to do with the black experience what effect do you think that the students who will inevitably come into the community to draw from this material for their own personal use or for research purposes. What effect do you think these students will have upon the community through possible interrelationships.

Well I'm concerned first as they come into the community. Right nice and I think that the library draws people to the community. And and and and that the collections that are available are in the community and not somewhere else so they're not drawn in the sort of Copley Square wouldn't that into Dudley Station. I think that. The whole trend. That that's occurring now for study of blackness and so on is for one of the most creative things that's happened in black you know a long time I think it's caused a number of young people to read more than they ever read you see people you know young guys going down the streets with Fernand paperbacks from the autobiography of Malcolm X sticking out of their back pockets and so on that that's great. I think that is it's many black students who are in the area who are attracted to the community and see that they always have to maintain some kind of connection with the black community is always going to be favorable.

And that brings on the next question How important is it that the library reflect the black experience. For the for the people must be predominately black. Why is it important for us. For our library to reflect you know the black experience through its architecture through its exhibits things of this nature. Well that raises a whole kinds of questions about identity and why we should be concerned about our history. You know because but it you know I feel that in our history that really defines us you know and that if we don't know you know where we have been then we make can we we can make no judgments about where we're going to go. You know if we think we were somebody else if we have if we think you know that we that we were descendants of Columbus OH if we were descendants of the people who landed on the Mayflower you know then we're going to make some very erroneous decisions in the future. You know that we have to know you know where we come from in the home so that the whole questions that are coming up in the community now are values and so on can be

based in our history not somebody else's. Baron once the once the library is in fact completed if it is ever completed to community specific ations will the committee continue. Well. I hope what the committee will do is to decide on a regular. Process by which community people can be elected to a board which will run the library. I mentioned there are several people out there in the audience who are interested in getting involved in the project. I hope some would make contact and who you know with the phone number. You know where would they call what I think would be easiest if they contacted me. Byron Rushing at the Center for Inner-City change phone number is 4 2 7 2 0 0 0 0. Thank you very much Byron I'd like to thank Beverly from coming in from the Boston University library and sharing some of her knowledge with us and you once again for coming in and explaining the whole library project to us. Make

sure that we're around for the groundbreaking ceremony. Thank you very much. The quality of the proposed library at Dudley Station and improvements in other libraries in the black community are important to all of us along with the library committee we should work to make sure that the libraries in our community are and are providing the materials and services that are essential for our continuing education. For the past five and a half years the Rev. Michael Haynes has been one of the two representatives from the 7th District Suffolk County in the state House of Representatives. Recently Reverend Haynes was appointed to the state parole board and resigned from his seat in the house. Reporter Tom Sheppard talked with him about his work in the state legislature. Mike now that you're off of the firing line and can speak freely about tew experience and the House of Representatives. Could you tell us what the function of a representative actually is.

I think the function of a state representative from a community such as the one which I've been honored and privileged to represent for almost six years is far more important than a lot of people in the community realize and I think this is reflected by the lackadaisical attitude which many of the people of the community took and the special primary election which was which was held just a few weeks ago and hopefully that the people will get concerned enough about the importance of this post who represents them who represents the people of what eight nine and 12. Which is a good hunk of the South fan and most of Roxbury and the General Court of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts the House of Representatives and the Senate who is a liaison between all the bills that would pertain to how they live here and now in their community and who is the channel of communication between the executive branch of government the governor the lieutenant governor the state audits the secretary of

state the state treasurer. This is the important function of the state representative to be a liaison to concern himself with all of those things that relate to all of the people in the community black people Spanish speaking people in particular and also the white people live in various pockets of the Southern Suffolk district. He must represent them. He must represent their rights. He must represent the needs he must let all of those people downtown in the state capitol know about the rights of the people out of the predominately black Spanish speaking and the white pockets of this community what their rights are and what their needs are and he must protect there protect those rights and look out for those needs and help to art to meet those needs. Well OK and so now we have two representatives out of two hundred forty is it. Two hundred forty Representatives. OK what do you do. You know you're in a minority you're in the minority and now your work could be considered a double minority First of all you know like they

claim 10 percent of the population and now is two out of two hundred forty. And what I'm trying to get at is how do you when you define a need what do you do if you say the traffic lights are necessarily necessary or necessary on a. Block in Roxbury. How do you go about getting it if there's just two of you. One of the biggest problems is in being a state representative is to try to separate the role of the state representative as against the commonly interpreted role which the people think is your role the role of the city council. So you immediately move away from from red lights and you say that belongs at city hall. You merely move away from garbage collection to say that belongs at city hall. You merely move away from many of the things that people in your district think you ought to be concerned about and you start maybe talking about state state college at Boston. How many young people from my district are in the state college where people from my district are on the faculty at the State College

is my community being able to utilize a benefit very much from the State College right there. You you're doing various number of things multiple roles you're playing you screaming is screaming and you're yelling you're screaming and yelling. First when you start to write bills you look at your community you see its needs. You might talk with various institutions and agencies in the community and you might file some legislation send it into the clerk's office. He sets up a date for a hearing you tell the people in your community that's interested there's going to be a bill pertaining to our community coming up before x Committee say Social Welfare Committee. I want you to come down and express your feelings about the need for our community having this bill before the social welfare committee so you go you get interested people in your community to go you talk to the committee you meet them before the hearing. You get on them after the hearing you stay with them until they have until they have their executive hearing when they decide what they're going to say to the to the house and farm assembly when all the other two hundred and thirty eight Representatives they are involved so you get down on the house and there you tell all the rest of the legislators why you feel

this bill pertaining to your community is important and you try to impress upon them the need of cooperating with you. In many instances you your point pulling a Dale Carnegie you've got to win friends you've got to influence people. And there are only two hundred and forty members of the House of Representatives. All of whom. All of our non black with the exception of two and today it's only one in the Senate there are 40 senators totally non black and this is something else that our representative has got to address themselves to. We are not rightly we are not represented in the state senate at all 1070 Massachusetts USA. We don't have a black senator. We don't have a Spanish speaking Senator at this particular time. So you've got to scream and holler but you've got to make friends and influence people because you going to need white votes. You can't completely turn them all off. You can't afford this luxury on behalf of your community. You've got to find whens find ways of bringing them over to your cause of alerting them to the importance of a

bit of legit legislation alerting them to the reality of the needs of your community and the rights of the people in your community. So you got to win some of them on your side. Sometime you might have to argue with them sometimes you got to debate with them. Sometimes you have to try to win them over by friendly persuasion. But you've got to keep on them keep communicating with them so that they may get better looks at the the rights and the needs that exist in your community. OK move where we are behind the proverbial eight. From the beginning and now they're talking about metropolitan government we're in I would imagine that there are men of representation will be reduced so much more when we start including all of the suburbs. Senator when do you feel you know how what will happen then will show up I think you're very right in being concerned about this whole concept of metropolitan government and how it might possibly affect minority people in this particular instances. Black people and Spanish speaking people. But even before you go to

the to the concept of metropolitan government the something else that our community and our representatives need to address themselves to and look at is the problem of of redistricting whether or not they want to cut down the size of the house. What this will do to the representation that we have when they start shuffling around the districts what effect this will have upon our representation and all of the legislation that's been in the House of Representatives on this and in the Senate and that's been toying around redistricting committees to redistrict the Senate so that we can possibly at least have a 50 percent chance of getting a black senator in the Senate. This is all a part of the whole thing of representation are needs being spoken for and all rights being provided for being guaranteed. And then when you move from this redistricting problem whether or not we're going to be gerrymandered out of a seat whether or not we're going to be redistricted out of a seat whether the Senate is going to maintain its present rather lily white status quo. Then you can start taking a look at the problems that might

come about as through a metropolitan government. So a black person might say if he's trying to look in-depth into the thing for goodness sake we're just getting at the place where our population is growing. We're getting a little bit sophisticated and concern about about Capitol Hill. We're just getting to the place where we're getting where we had three representatives and now we've got to today we have one. And next year we might have ZERO. And now they're going to set up a metropolitan government so all of the people who have been blastoff to be able to move out into suburbia who still want to have the PIO of the of the inner city the core city where they can stay out in suburbia and live out in the metropolitan area and still run the whole show in here and so. Shep you'll never be able to become. Governor maybe your lieutenant governor will say Senator you'll never be able to come Senator when we get metropolitan control because those who move out in the hinterlands out in suburbia

will then be deciding how the people in the core city shall live by a foreign lodge and this is another side of the coin is a side of this coin of Metropolitan Government looks very good. If we pull all of our school resources together with with all of the suburban area Newton Wellesley Natick Lexington etc. it can help our school system in one sense maternal coin on the other side of my post and other problems and I think you're wise and I community would be wise in taking a look at all that's involved the pluses of metropolitan government but also finding out if there are any minuses and what these minuses will do to the articulate masses to the minority people who for so long have not been a part off. You bring up some interesting point. The influx of black people to our community and then you bring up another point about the Spanish speaking people now if we really have a group of people that are disenfranchised in the Spanish speaking people now what are we as black people going to do when we view the

fact that Spanish speaking people live in the exact same conditions that we do well how are we going to bridge this gap and begin to work together in solving our mutual problems. My entire period of time in the state legislature I've been very concerned about the Spanish speaking people I've tried to build some bridges of communication within the Spanish speaking community myself. I've tried to bring this to the attention of legislative bodies in the House of Representatives. And I see more and more increasingly Roxbury is developing in a very significant Spanish speaking community itself and has had for some for some time. And these two groups of people in America at this particular time have been the groups in this section of America at least the this side of Illinois it's been Spanish speaking and. And blacks you get in the western part of the country you might have to deal with with Indians and and other minority groups. But here it's been the Spanish speaking people. But in some instances there's a plus and a

minus this. There are two sides to this coin almost all of the black people might feel that that's Spanish speaking people and speaking up and demanding their rights and the fulfillment of then needs may be taking away from the the focus of attention and concern upon the black problem but I feel that it could be ended if it could be and it should be done as a simultaneous as a couple thing that we must recognize the fact that Spanish speaking people are many as this is a suffering from the same kinds of stereotypes the same kinds of discriminations the same kind of systematic being left out. That the black person has. And that because we are living together very much so in the same ghettos we must pool our concerns of us pull our resources. We must unite on numbers. We must collectively get out and vote for the person who's best going to represent our needs and causes and then this unity we can have a meaningful strength. And we've got to do it even though in the election coming up on the on the on next Tuesday we've got to say to ourselves Spanish speaking people and black people at this time in

history what man can best identify with with with a sense of our rights. And I sense of our needs which man can best understand what we are suffering and what we have suffered at this time in the country what man is best going to represent the majority of people in this district at this time. What committees you serve on why you want to stay. Why are you in the legislature. I've been on a goodly number of a number of committees I was on social welfare. Maybe because I have a social work background and it's one of my areas of special interest. I was on public service which has to do with with the jobs and salaries and in this area I became very concerned about the the the absence of of blacks in State Service clear across our state and the absence of Spanish speaking people clear across the state and the problem is now being being addressed too and I was on Urban Affairs Urban Affairs Committee I was vice chairman of Urban Affairs and I sat

on any number of recess and subcommittees down the representative can the representative have any impact on the housing situation now through our ranks through our No. Like where we're living in the midst of Rodin sent a number of other cats that have existed since prehistoric days and generally only existing in those communities that don't receive full city services. How how can a representative attend these kinds of problems if he has to influence like a number of the people that don't have these kinds of problems what does he do. I think that the representatives role here again can be sort of a multiple role. He's got to do numbers of things. Now for example in conjunction with an organization like Corps I'll take this out of history because at one time core sponsored at Toul all in the in the Roxbury ghetto for us especially for legislators.

Now at this time the local black legislators of the Boston legislative city would have to play a liaison and and and and and and and interpret ing role for the legislators who came from the suburbs and cars and come on up to my district. I've got some things I want you to see on this core tour and court took legislators senators and representatives to some of the worst housing show them some of the most classical examples of slumlord ism from some of our most outstanding slumlords in the south and Boston community. This is the kind of role the legislator can play then also where we also know that this city cannot carry this burden of the problems of the city all by itself. It's got to get federal help. It's also got to get state help in this area they bought The Boston Representatives and the black representatives all three of the more recent representatives have been very involved in trying to do their part to help bring about state aid to the housing problem. And but there is still more that must be done there is a role that state government can play. There is a role that a state representative can play in trying to address himself to the very serious most serious problem of housing in the inner

city. This may come through making better housing available by assisting and bringing more strict housing codes by doing something about houses that are allowed to lie dormant and decadent for years rather than seize them from slum lords who are waiting to get a big piece of plum for their property in urban renewal or in a model city program and this type of thing. And then by bringing by making housing opening helping to open up housing in suburbs suburban areas not only for middle class blacks but for poor blacks off a large families. Blacks are Spanish speaking people who are white like the privilege of it's a privilege of being able to live in Holliston or Lexington or Norwood or Wellesley in these other places. There is much that a representative from our district can say and can do and continually pounding home the fact that our one of our number one problems in the ghetto of Boston in the south and in Roxbury is a serious housing crisis that has not yet been adequately responded to. You just became the newest member of the state parole board.

How do you see your role there what were the kinds of things that made you change or made you change you made you change your position from that of being the representative of a black constituency to that going on to state board the deals with bigger or larger kind of problems. I think that this comes out of my own my own background. For most of my working career I've worked with young people. Robert who was shot House when it was our most exclusive and only really meaningful black social agency in Boston. And then I went to the State Youth Service Board which was dealing with all of the boys and girls 17 and under who were arrested in the entire commonwealth of Massachusetts from the youth service what I came to the Knopfler House center to help set up some Delinquency Prevention and correction programs in the in the Roxbury area. From that I came into the legislature with the social work background with this conscious awareness of the fact that because of all of the total deprivations that go all the way back into the entire history

of the black man in America black people seemingly were getting caught up in crime. It's not as bad as it looks. That black people getting caught up in crime but the numbers of them were getting arrested the numbers of them where were ending up in jail some of the best exponents we've had of the needs and rights of black people have been have been men who found themselves in our prison institutions for example. Malcolm Little known to us as Malcolm X and I in the in the prisons there is a real heaping up of of human life. That's not the problems of which are not being met effectively. And I felt that I had an opportunity and in taking a mantle from a from an elder statesman within the black community who was retiring to continue to explore in this particular area. I only have a I only have a term it's not a life appointment I have a term when I get finished with it I might decide to resume my activities and elective office. Thank you very much Mike cane.

A special election for the Seventh District will be held this coming Tuesday February 10th to fill the seat vacated by Mr. Haynes. The district consists of wards 8 9 and 12 and contains 14000 registered voters in the pre-election primary which was held on January 13th. Of the approximately 2000 persons who voted Mr Johnson received the highest number of votes on the Republican ticket and Mr. William Curran was the top man on the Democratic ticket. We had hoped to be able to present both candidates. However Mr. Curran the Democratic nominee is unable to join us due to illness. We hope that a discussion of the Republican position by Mr. Johnson will shed some light on the issues affecting the 7th District. Mr. Johnson was a candidate from the ward 12 which contains the largest segment of blacks registered voters and rolled Republicans and independents. Although this is Mr. Johnson's first bid for elective office he is an educator and civic leader of long standing in the community. He came to Roxbury

in 1948 from Connecticut and is presently vice principal of the Martin Luther King Jr. middle school. If Mr. Johnson is successful on February 10th primary he will become the second GOP Black from the Roxbury area to serve in the House of Representatives. Interviewing Mr. Johnson for same brother is Miss Penny Stanley. A law student at Harvard University. Good evening Mr. Johnson and welcome say brother. Congratulations on your recent victory. I would like to discuss with you this evening some of the issues that we feel might be of interest both to voters in your district and to our viewing audience. Given the critical housing problem that is presently facing many of the persons in your district and in the state at large we felt this should be the first topic for our discussion tonight. Governor Stajan has recently hit a proposed housing package a program that would be designed to help alleviate some of the critical problems facing us. What is your position

on this program. Well before I answer the question esteemed I want to thank you and only thanks a brother for being the kind of program that can bring issues to the people. In various because my opponent has not. Shown himself as the only black candidate. I feel that it is imperative that the issues that we are going to discuss tonight be. Broad in the open and that our campaigning be the type that will expose each candidate to the people. And I'm so very sorry that both of us can be exposed as such. In answer to your question. The one thing that I think the governor sergeant's housing program is that it's probably one of the most boldest programs that has been unseated. I don't think it's ever too bold I don't even think it's enough. But I think it's a magnificent start. I think also that seems to me that there seemed to be indicated in Washington a

shrinkage a withdrawal if you might say that was really a new position. And the best we could say possibly in Washington station is that perhaps a federal approach. But whatever approach it is it seems to me that that states. Communities are going to have to do it themselves and I think that it makes enormous sense that the state of Massachusetts makes a commitment to housing for its people and I think that we certainly should speed up model cities so it's completed. We certainly must complete and speed up every know but even more more than that we must determine as a people the will to reallocate from from areas both in the city and splashed all over the state. The kind poor housing and we must indorse a program at least take one forward bow step in this direction. Well now the governor has indicated that he does have a commitment to at least work towards the alleviation of these problems. How effective do you think this program will be.

I think it's effective. It's going to be based upon As I said the kind of performance we have in the house the kind of sensitivity. And also I think that you have to have the kind of elected official who will be both persuasive articulate and in many instances perhaps allowed in the demands that this program not only be declared but but be put into action. Do you feel that such a program requires any further god launch to ensure that low and middle income persons actually can afford to live in them or is no question because it seems to me in America any time that you have amounts of money you have the invitation in the seduction to misuse this money. And certainly the Philadelphia plan or plans like this must be. As far as I would say implemented we must make statues to make sure that all the people not only receive the housing but also participate in the building of the housing and that this great effort toward giving America the kind of decent housing becomes an effort not only in the economic gains the

few terms of economic gains for all peoples will now and not with the Philadelphia there's been much debate of recent both in the community and among student groups here in the city regarding minority group and climate. Would you personally favor state guidelines that would set up a certain minimum quota of minority group members that had to be employed on both state and federally funded programs. I certainly wouldn't and I get disturbed when I hear quotas and I know those in the great debates that went on between the universities and the universities. It seemed to me the great intellectual power to be confused and to stutter and what I thought was a very basic kind of an approach. I never heard the wailing and gnashing of teeth when it was 90 percent or 99 percent. And this way's been in this country and it seems to me when someone asked for 20 percent of 10 percent that you don't turn your Phi Beta Kappa key and try to be cute It seems to me that you look at this as a demand as a

goal as an objective and we in America I think cannot be tied up in the intellectual battles on quotas. We have to pick up the mantle of leadership. We have to take these steps forward steps so that everyone in this country can be immersed in the good life. And certainly it seems to me that the chance to be a breadwinner a chance to make money in this economic system is a right of all Americans and I just don't just disturb that. We have to even begin to slacken and begin to argue well quotas. Yes we would certainly agree that any discussion that would be limited solely to what quota would be appropriate. Hardly relevant. Do you feel however that at least some minimal quota should be ecstatic. And if so what would you personally feel should be at least a quota to be established. Well I don't know if you can read any quote It just seems to me that that one that will indorse hope when that is practical

20 25 percent doesn't bother me. If you said 50 percent it wouldn't bother me. I think that what we must understand is that we have the kind of effort in this country that will go down into the into the barrel by resources and use all peoples and we don't certainly get disturbed over how many of this and how many of that. Well one thing that has come up of late in terms of debate not only in terms of quotas for employment figures but also in terms of income level is the issue regarding an annual income. Now many of the persons in your district have been. Leading some of the shoppers struggles of late regarding the welfare issues do you personally feel that a guaranteed annual income of fifty five hundred that many of the organizations supporting their demands are asking for would be desirable or Barry I've been saying that all all over my order no order 8 9 when I have had a

chance to talk. I have particularly this also in the press and I think that we certainly have to have it and then the guaranteed income of this country. And I think that we should look at the department Labor's guidelines as to what it takes to live in America without divorcing yourself with the things that make life good. And I it seems to me that that also this is streaming important is the fact that we did not stingy in our quarters in terms of how much it taste for a man for a family or for even individual to meet. I noticed that the next administration has made some effort in this in this I think that there's been too much back slapping by the administration in this direction because I think its approach is timid I think is pro-choice too weak and I think that there are state. Can only take a glance at the guidelines of the next government. But it seems to me that we can amplify it and make it a realistic kind of thing.

Well now the State Department of Welfare has indicated that they feel that forty eight hundred dollars would be the minimum income level for a person to at least have an adequate standard of living. The Nixon administration on the other hand feels that again ante the annual income of approximately twelve hundred would be close to desirable. Do you personally feel that you would be able to do anything to contribute or help the persons in your district meet at least this forty eight hundred minimum income level that they presently are not meeting. Well I certainly would and I certainly think that that what has to be be. The effort has to be to to certainly educate people as to what the standard is. And it seems to me the facts must be known and then it seems to me that we must be most be most persuasive in our efforts to educate other people or instruct the mystery of what every American must have. He is well known long with this many of the persons presently receiving benefits under what is commonly called a special needs category.

Could you explain to us exactly what the special needs category is what I don't want to take my time to explain the special needs category just seems to me that that all of the programs I see seem to be to be to be miserly in approach. They don't go to the basic kinds of problems that we need and what I think is that we need to brand new bold approach and perhaps if there is a Republican argument is the fact this is the time for the public to make a bold approach. I might add here in going back to housing briefly the Senate broke and then ceded power with the most money the most most creative. Kind of effort so that our people our public housing no longer have to pay outrageous rents. There isn't a person to the income under his bill and under his effort people in public housing now can pay the reasonable percentage of their income for rent. I think this is the kind of approaches that we have to make. Isn't it true however that if when you rent it into income

levels that there is something of a negative incentive towards achieving a higher income level because then you will either have to move out of the rental unit that you presently can afford into one that would not have this kind of a stable right. I think these are kind of mostly stale arguments it seems to me that one of things American food that they have a great impulse for change and they have a great impulse to do better. And it seems to me that that I hear all of this nonsense about. Generations on welfare. Well it does not blame the people Bullis brain the kind of system that varies and depresses people receive. To me that the real catalytic agent in America is home and it seems to me that I find the kind of energies coming from our people. They say that I don't want to stay on the bottom and this kind of programs that uplift human dignity in the kind of programs that will excite people the kind that gives them a chance to better themselves and that's what I continually talk about in state level I hope and certainly hope with it in the national level that we make the kind of commitment economically that we make when we're

fighting our wars that we don't understand. We make the kind of Jai great ganti efforts that are staggering in size but are practical in their application. Well now would you continue to advocate this conduct strong commitment on the part of I take it you mean the federal and state level government in view of both Governor Governor sergeants and President Nixon's intentions to balance a budget. I think so and I think that what we're saying here is a shifting of the of the priorities and shifting of the goals the Shipley of the objectives and even more philosophically a real commitment to the good life of this country. I see that our time is tipping away but one thing that bothers me also is transportation which certainly is the lifeline of this country and the one thing that is very in the cities is fact that the that the people in the cities cannot move around in their cities enjoy the benefits. Therefore I have asked repeatedly throughout our community that we reduce the

MBT rates. This is not foolish some people have even added that perhaps we should have a free transit right persone a transit riders that is so competitive that we can lower the tax rate or we can reduce the parking fees and we can refuse to drive our big automobiles in the city of Boston. Do you feel however that a reduced transportation fare for the urban centers per se would be a solution to some of the problems that are confronting them with this. The more the way in which the person is trapped in the city could at least get out and see where they're trapped. Or Barrie I think the first step is a first step to says that that we are dedicated to the proposition that people can enjoy their city that the cities are cultural places is the first proposition that says that that we begin to realize that the air is polluted is a first step it seems to me that that maybe we care about what happens to the heart of people a city that needs the kind of programs that we in this country have the creative genius to do.

Well one of the issues that I would like to discuss before our town is completely gone is education. Commissioner Sullivan has recently ended Kate that President Nixon's veto which included the AGW budget will cost the state of Massachusetts approximately eighteen million dollars. Where do you feel the money to feel this gap will come from and what direct or indirect consequences do your friends foresee for the persons in your district. Well I think very much as I stated in housing as I stated other priorities that it means a shifting of the gears in the state and certainly seems to be the city of Boston the state of Massachusetts must begin to issue those strange grants so that money can come down into the areas in the communities where it's needed and I think it also means a new tax proposals and I think that we have to be honest with tax proposals that we we cannot be magicians like if we say that we're going to increase our sales tax for education then it seems to me we should get it. But whatever way we do it and I certainly think that in the state of Massachusetts we're going to have to face up to it that we certainly can can really go into the graduate

interim tax and we may have to get the kind of education for our children that's needed. Well now we presently have a search and balance and open enrollment laws on the books. Do you feel that these laws are being effective or do you feel that more. Additional state legislation is needed. Well I think that more is needed I think more than is the will and seizing me that legislation more than anything else is part of educating therapy for this country. And if we have to just put bills on top of bills if it means that a step that we can begin to see people educate people and begin to realize that this is a great nation then the great amalgam and the great progress in that we talk about is to come about. It seems to me that we must certainly determine to ourselves and to our people that we're willing to pay the cost. Well not as a state representative you will have the power in part to affect legislation. What committee which you request that you be a point where I say I don't know that I'm not that acquainted with the various names the committees but certainly I mean it's an education. So they might be

interested in the hiring policies of the state of Massachusetts. Certainly I'm interested in the resources of this great state and it seems to me in these areas would be the areas that I would be most interested. What steps would you personally take to ensure that as a representative you would continue to have both information and feedback among your constituency but I think one of the great things that I receive in my mail is a fact sheet for some of the broth and I think that one thing that I'd like to do and I don't know whether I have the resources would probably be the key to having a certainly a periodic factsheet. So the people are our community can have some idea of how the legislature is acting. They can get a profile of the legislative thinking and they can get the kind of information from legislature the so so necessary for them to make their choice. And when they have to vote again. Yes well in terms of a contentious constituency opinioned there are presently certain bills pending before the legislature that might be of great interest to the persons in your district. For example the bill which would establish local daycare centers.

Do you feel that such centers would be a benefit to the persons who just walk the course. This is obvious because you see I'm in a district that has the breadwinner and certainly seems that all American I was on the double bed when extended and we have a regard for our children. We know that when women stay home now that there's great hardships and someone says they cannot. I personally have every have a philosophy about women in the home and I like to see them there but I see I also have a clarity on reality and it seems to me that when with faced with the kind of double red red when they stand it is in the kind of needs in our community that these centers make enormous enormous sense because they give to the child which is so important that head start that he needs if he is to finish this race and be the kind of citizen that we need. Yes thank you for being our guest this evening. The special election for representative from the 7th District will be held this coming Tuesday February 10th. If you are a registered voter in Ward 8 9 or

12 Be sure to get out and vote this Tuesday. If you're not sure of the location of the polling place in your neighborhood call the election department at city hall. All the little little city hall in your area. Next week say brother presents BLACK AMERICA SPEAKS OUT. A film of a forum at Boston College with Ralph Abernathy of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference Roy Innis of the Congress of Racial Equality and Roy Wilkins of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. So be sure to watch it.