The First Amendment; William Payeff - International Communication

The First Amendment and a free people a weekly examination of civil liberties and the media in the United States and around the world. The program has produced cooperatively by WGBH Boston and the Institute for democratic communication at Boston University. The host of the program is the institute's director Dr. Bernard Reuben. The diplomatic services of the world are a far cry from what they were several decades ago indeed a decade ago. Every day in the newspapers we read about the terrorist attack. We have 53 Americans incarcerated in one place or another in Iran. We've had our ministers under attack we've lost individuals. And yet our diplomatic services and other diplomatic services other bases that countries used to talk to one another in the main I'm delighted to have with me today to estimate what has been going on and where we're heading for a man who knows a good deal about it. A

senior officer of the international communication agency of the United States Mr. William Pierce. He's a South Carolinian. He's a graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill took a master's degree at Columbia University and has served overseas since the World War Two period. He worked for DuPont as a writing historian and has served among other places in Cambodia in Saigon Vietnam in Hong Kong in Paris in Marrakesh in Morocco. In a while you know serving in Beverly where he is working as a officer on loan to the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Bill let me ask you a tough question at the start when you came into the service as an information officer a while ago. You had certain hopes and aspirations. How do they compare with

young officers now facing this trouble world in coming into the services of our State Department or international communication agency. Well I believe the expectation that I had 55 when I joined us I. We're extremely high to make. A categorical statement. I can say that in the 25 years now that I served with that agency I have not been disappointed in terms of the variety of experiences that the screw your has afforded me both geographically and in terms of qualitative experience. I would say that young officers joining the service today probably have the same expectation and certainly the

challenges while somewhat different from the challenges that we had initially are still there. And the appeals from my point of view are still very much there. I know their job is to convey it as it as it was the story of the United States and to relay the story of other countries to senior officials the president and the State Department. Looking back on your experience and you've had an unusual career in North Africa in Asia and in Europe and I may add that you're fluent in French German and Chinese which is also very unusual. Can you take us back a little bit to a trying situation when you realized how important information was even though you were a junior officer serving overseas. Well I suppose one goes about always to his first

post which in my instance was prompt in Cambodia. I might add here that it was the least likely place that I would ever have thought just to be to serve. This was 1956. And if you recall Cambodia at that point was neutral. How secretary of state at that time John Foster Dulles was very hard on neutrals India essentially But Cambodia being in the same category also came in for. Something less than praise every day. Well as press officer one of my responsibilities was to ensure that the Cambodian government of the Cambodian media were aware of what our policy was and our policy certainly was not very palatable to the Cambodians

that I think was my first introduction to the difficulties that one faces when you have a policy that's not very palatable unpopular and yet you're responsible for making sure that the your audience understands that it is you you obviously are in in trouble almost every day. I used to at times dread picking up our daily wireless files which would send out the texts of speeches or the. Accounts of press interviews from Washington to the Washington to the post. And when I would see what I didn't know whether to lock the window first and then read the texts or read the text and unlock windows.

However having said that I must say that working in a difficult country and Cambodia indeed was a difficult country at that point it was a challenge and was stimulating and interesting. Primarily because of the. Almost total ignorance of the US. Mind you that's 19 We're talking about one thousand fifty six. All the impressions that the Cambodians had gotten about the US were either through the filter of the French at that point I think not a single Cambodian had visited the US unless it was Prince Sihanouk and that was to visit to the UN. I recall the first Cambodian who returned from the US after graduating from an American school.

During his latest The Fifties one would assume that you were talking about the 1880s disgraces the 19th Well in many ways we are talking about a time that for all intent purposes could have been the. Another century. Well in that in that same period of time Bangkok Thailand was a small city by comparison to the megalopolis that it is today. I remember talking in Bangkok to former prime minister who said this place has just gone mad in the last 25 years. Well I've I've been fortunate in that I've had an opportunity over time too. Revisit a number of places particularly in the Far East that I saw in the mid 50s Bangkok would certainly be one of them and I can remember very well when Bangkok I shouldn't designated as a sleepy country town it was never that I think. But the traffic today the amount of constructions the number of luxury hotels. The expansion of

the media etc etc is unbelievable by comparison to what I what it was when I first saw it I think in 1956. Now in regard to understanding between societies understanding between countries there's been a vast change between the 50s and today in that the physical services of communication are so much better is. And I think that more middle class people travel between societies. But it is the is the basic appreciation of one society by another better. In my view it is not necessarily better in spite of the technological expansion and the rapidity of communications I think obviously in some areas the understanding among countries has been enhanced many fold

by the same token I think that this technological advancement and this communications explosion is frequently years referred to as. Additionally it tended to confuse and make it more difficult to sift out the relevant facts pertinent data priorities. What matters and what doesn't matter then was perhaps the case in the fifties. So I think it would be very difficult to make a black and white statement that because of the of the advancement in communications they'd understand ing is necessarily better. The opportunities may be there physically but the results materially in terms of material better understanding not necessarily they are looking back at the time from the beginnings of your service in the

government to now. In the fifties the governments had a predominant status in international communication. They had the staffs overseas they were carrying on diplomatic negotiations. Today large companies do that and there are more of their representatives than there are government servants overseas. How is this affected the work of official people in trying to affect their societies when they're surrounded by all these corporate people and multinational people of various types. Well what you're saying is obviously quite true. I'm speaking now from the point of view of someone who is a foreign service officer a is someone working in you know in the diplomatic community of a mission. However it's also very apparent that we are simply one element in the communications process with another country. And I think that's that's

that's a good thing. I think that the impression is that any country gets so the United States comes from a whole variety of sources. Obviously they get them from us as cultural affairs officers information officers but in addition to that they they get them from the business community from tourists from American films from a whole variety of things that are in essence outside of the U.S. government. They'll pay off the recent flap over the television production death of a princess which was produced by Public Television in both the United States and Germany and in England where. In a certain sense

harassed by the Saudis to try to get it withdrawn. This leads me to a question regard to such subjects is that it appears that we haven't really gotten the message over as to what kind of a society we are and when push comes to show other governments think that our government can dictate in the areas of ideas. Is there any way around that problem. Well unfortunately Bernie this problem will be with us for. A long time to come. I don't think there ever comes a point when one can say. At long last the French understand us or at long last we understand the French. I think this is in the realm of the optimum and it's something that we obviously try very hard to achieve. But there will always be misunderstandings even

among audiences that are very well informed about the US. There are complexities we are an extraordinarily complex society and the job of the ICSA the international communication agency is to convey in a sense this complexity rather than the simply the voice of the administration. We are much longer a longer and broader in in scope than that and than that. Now we take pride in that. But our totalitarian rivals of course are able to pick and choose the rational. Forgive me. I recall once again I hark back to to my initial experience in Cambodia remind you of the. Time magazine for example is being distributed in Cambodia and read by

a handful of people and time at that. As I recall had a caption under a photograph of the then foreign minister and Prince Sihanouk and it was one of the cute little alliteration. It's that that time is was wont to do. And I his press attache was summoned in to see the minister of information. I was very unhappy with this caption and I was told in very strong terms that Cambodia did not appreciate this insult and that he would very much appreciate my contacting our president and having Time magazine abolished. This was not an absurd thought this was

a the Ministry of Information. Sophisticated educated men. And when I explained to that that same issue of Time magazine had contained a number of. Comments about our own president which he was not exactly happy with. He looked at me as though to say Come come young man you're not telling me that if you if your president wanted this magazine abolished he couldn't do it. Well unfortunately there are issues like the New York Port Authority banning the Concord issue in France. Now France is a very sophisticated country by and they didn't I sometimes and I'm not saying that many did not understand it because I think that's the key. I think that many people understand but that we still have a lot of work to do. When I say we I mean I mean the U.S. has a lot of work to do.

Now France and I'm going to take advantage of William payer for knowledge of France and of the French language France has a background in revolution as we have our American Revolution their French Revolution their French Revolution though went through a different phase then in terms of its generic qualities then our American Revolution in that Napoleon at a certain point became the leader of the directorate and became the first council and then became the Emperor. And many French look back not only to the destruction of the Bourbons but also to the to the restoration of the greatest emperor that any civilized country in their view could have had despite what happened to him finally in looking at their history. And you're serving now in France and this period of your career. Is there a way that it is possible to invent to to get to the upper middle class the literati

France on subjects in which there are such basic differences between the two countries by freedom of the press about the right and the role of the government. After all we've been on two different paths both free societies but on two distinctly different paths. Well I left France of course. Last August. That's nearly a year ago. I found this having been the fourth time for me in serving in France not always with the government but I discovered that the understanding between the two countries was it a better level than it had been in any time that I could recall in the past. That is to say that I served as press attache in Paris during the time that the General de Gaulle was something less than pro-American and in my

view and I found during this recent tour of duty there that the French were very willing to listen to us. We were able to discuss subjects of great sensitivity with openly knowing virtually in advance that there would be disagreement. But the atmospherics and I'm not talking about the specific differences with this administration or that but the the atmosphere for discussing. Issues was better than I remember it ever having been. I say that there will doubtless always be differences between France and I said the French and ourselves. But I was reassured by the atmosphere that existed where I found

no really major outstanding problem. They're the reason for this is is in my own view fairly easy to explain. One I think the French are much more affluent now than they've ever been before. The really the result of the dollar's decline in Europe and the rise of French country against the French currency against the dollar has enabled many many French who otherwise would not be able to travel to the US and to see for themselves some of the things that existed simply in their in their books and in their minds and in American films too. The communication explosion has also. Had a concomitant explosion in travel so that there are and the normal number

of French business people government officials scholars and so forth who come quite freely to the US on a scale far beyond what ever existed in the past past and the same is true of Americans. Businesspeople government officials scholars students etc. so the exchange is is much much more than that it ever has been. Well given given that though there are still difficulties and difficulties different from that that we have with the British or even the Germans and I wonder is it because the French while I took a point of divergence only in my little historical background are not only different from us but very similar to us in that they want to be predominant in their area or they think that when they send their foreign service offices to

spread French culture that there is no other substitute for French culture. Well this certainly is a view that one can find little fault with. The French have a. Have a very high opinion of their culture. They for many years I think felt that we were a nation without any. They admired our scientific technical industrial prowess. In the cultural area we were seen as POV or news or people not not necessarily to be contended with. That I think Bernie is changing again. These things do not happen overnight. These are the stereotypes after all these fixes have to be changed by experience and over a long period of

time. Can I take advantage of a bill payoff of some others other parts of your travel background as a public affairs officer in Morocco and your work in North Africa in the Middle East in general. Are there any clues that you can give us that will help us to understand the variety of cultures in the so-called Arab world I think that the American public sometimes and some people think of a sort of alum can call the the Arab rather than this rich diverse civilization that spreads over such a vast terrain. Bernie this is quite true. I'll try to be responsive to your question I can only in terms of your Moroccan experience alone in other words when dealing with the Moroccans how do we deal differently with them than we do with the Algerians or others.

Well if with your permission I'll enter this through the side door and say that in 65 never having been to Africa I had occasion to make a sweep through 14 African countries including North Africa Algeria Morocco Egypt. And the thing that occurred to me immediately or the thing that became apparent to me immediately was the enormous diversity of the cultures and the peoples even within a country like Nigeria like Congo and like Morocco. Therefore I think that we are terribly guilty and I'm being very simplistic when we tend to see the Arab world as a cohesive monolithic kind of thing because Islam for example is practiced

in Morocco although even the Arabic language is spoken in Morocco all differs so vastly from that. Spoken in Saudi Arabia or other parts of the Arab world that you have that you have any number of of of major differences. So I think this is what you're alluding to yes. But there is the Islam of course is the single unifying factor among them in addition to the language but the cultures vary enormously. Let me ask you this last question for a little bit of elaboration in the three minutes that we have left. You came home and you haven't various At various times after a long stays overseas you go through culture shock. Tell us a little about the culture shock of returning home as it effects a foreign service

officer. Well I'm not sure my my my case is typical I came home this time I'd only been in France out of Washington in France approximately two years. Therefore the transition was less abrupt and say it had been and would have been coming back from Saigon or Cambodia or one of the more remote places. I think the cultural shock for me as a South Carolinian was New England. This was a part of the world that I'm still getting to know. My wife and I were living in an old converted barn in New Hampshire. And. I fired this as well as I could be a delight but a challenge to almost as much a challenge I might say as it is a foreign service to us.

I cannot resist this because this program is being beamed across the country is New England warmer and more hospitable even then it's reputed to be. As a South Carolinian would you observe and then. Well I think that if you are willing to spend a couple centuries you know people don't know you like any part of the world. We we've made some good friends here. I think people do tend to be a little more reserved in all fairness than they do down south. Well for those of you in Seattle San Francisco Denver Syracuse New York and other places we tried at least to get a proper answer here in New England we haven't succeeded in. Maybe we need a foreign service of our own build pay a fee to go abroad to New Jersey and New York and Texas and carry our message. I must say it's been a tremendous pleasure having you on the program and learning a little bit about what it is to represent America overseas thank you for this

edition. Bernard Ruben thank you. The First Amendment and a free people a weekly examination of civil liberties and the media in the United States and around the world. The engineer for this broadcast was Michael Garrison. The program is produced by Greg Fitzgerald. This broadcast has produced cooperatively by WGBH Boston and the Institute for democratic communication. F. Boston University which are solely responsible for its content. This is the station program exchange.