Listen Here; People in Flight

January 12 1945 the East German fronter collapses under pressure of the Red Army and Army five times the strength of the German Verma inexorably as Soviet troops roll across the eastern reaches of the files and you're right. In Berlin in a frenzied last ditch propaganda effort German citizens are promised and see the final victory. Some three hundred and sixty miles eastward Soviet soldiers take rapacious revenge for the German occupation of their country while the Nazis in Berlin instruct the populace to hold up the greatest human flight unmemorable time is underway from East Prussia into the Sudetenland Germans leave their homeland. The winter of 1944 45 was one of the longest bloodiest and coldest of the war. During the chaotic Exodus 2 million Germans would

never reach their destination they either starved or froze to death or were crushed under the treads of te 34 Russian tanks. In all 12 million survived 2 million remaining in the Soviet occupied zone the rest moving on to the western part of a devastated country an endless progression of starved desperate acts police had arrived at the low point of their existence. This mass flight of people from territories east of suppressing plant yes was of course a direct outcome of Hitler's war. Professor Richard Levantine a lecturer on political science at the Free University of Berlin an expert on foreign affairs. These people had been settled only by the great majority that lived before they were well.

Towards the end of the war by the victorious Soviet armies and to some extent by the Bush associates and by the time the Soviet armies and what had become under Hitler German territory there was already a preliminary agreement between the allied powers that the front just of Poland could be shifted west. The Soviets had demanded the water conference because of their violent Yalit or that some of the territories that had belonged to interwar Poland and you know were inhabited mainly by Ukrainian and White Russian populations. Should become part of Russia and it suggested that Poland should be compensated at German expense. This idea had been agreed in principle by the Western allies but there had been no agreement on the extent of the

compensation proposed the other conference separated without agreement on the Western Front years of PL and when the Soviet armies with a pool of associates entered the territories in question. They simply handed over these territories to pull the communist administration on the grounds that they had to have something be an administration there. The result was. A mass flight. Of the German population partly from fear and partly deliberately promoted by political selling the final battle of World War Two reached its climax with the heavy wave of refugees fleeing to the heart of the German cologne journalist in Fleet welcome on a native East Prussian remembers the fight the Russians came to ease pressure when I was about seven not quite eight but seven years old of

course. Shortly before Christmas in 1944 my family was living in a place called artistes broke today under Polish administration the poets I think followed suit no. We had to move from Autosport in January it was the twenty fourth or twenty fifth of general 1945 and all were known in fact nobody told us to move but the Russians were approaching and the Nazi authorities in order to court were giving out little papers called F papers. Will you you can call them fleeing papers a few weeks later. We in fact had to move the whole city was burning. What was that. That was the twenty fifth of January 1945 and we came into a train that brought us to New York and it took us eight days to get there. This was normally a journey I think of

hours five or six hours and on the way there were terrible terrible scenes of. Mothers coming in with the little children and then the mother went off for getting some milk and the train started moving and there was a little kid in somebody else's lap and the mother was gone and there was heavy artillery fire. Already And when you were outside in the streets yours was cold it was 24 do we. Below are 10 degrees below zero. And you could see the wounded and killed and frozen German army soldiers lying there. But we were very lucky because we were brought to a pillow and with little chips to the big vote. Oh and the the German army soldiers. Really did their best in these days to ship out the people of. East Prussia on the way on that ship on the way to shake her Stein. We had several alarms

and Soviet submarines were hunting us. I don't really know how long it take to go to town but I remember when we arrived there we were received by S.A. officials and we got in the sea and we were housed there in a hospital and not every Prussian had such an easy escape as a man and his family while transporting 5000 refugees across the Baltic Sea. The reconverted excursion boat the bluff was torpedoed by a Soviet submarine. Only 400 passengers survived. Many civilian Germans awaited a more gruesome fate. We were trapped between two fronts. Bullets were running over our heads. Suddenly the shooting stopped and tanks approached. Russian soldiers dressed in snow jackets ran towards us. Then the tanks plowed into a truck of refugees. A car containing three Russians halted in front of me.

They got out and threw me on the hood of the car. My screams were lost in the blizzard raped inflight Josefina a medical student from East Prussia for the Russian troops. German women were part of the spoils of war. In fact the Russian poet Ilya Ehrenberg had encouraged rape and plunder. Because the Germans had a deep seated fear of the Red Army. They abandoned their homes even before the Soviet troops moved in. One recalls Joseph Stalin the skirt comment at the 1945 Potsdam conference. No single German remained in the area to be given to Poland. His statement was close to the truth but not quite correct. Four million Germans stayed behind in East Prussia Brandenburg and signed easier as well as the other regions east of the older nicer lines. The subsequent expulsion was fixed by the Potsdam agreements of 1945.

Article 13 of the three governments the United States the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom recognize that the transfer of German populations or elements thereof remaining in Poland Czechoslovakia and Hungary will have to be undertaken. They are gray that any transfers that take place should be effected in an orderly and humane manner. Poland Czechoslovakia and Hungary put this article into immediate effect. Sometimes disregarding the term humane manage the United States. Five years later disassociated herself from this population transfer. All efforts on the part of the United States government to alleviate this expulsion would have been futile. Professor Leventhal explains why by the time the victorious major powers met for the first post-war conference it puts them in July. Nine hundred forty five. An accomplished fact had been created and the great bulk

of the German population of these territories had already left. There was a major clash of wills at this conference because the American and British representatives particularly the British a boost the extent to which Germany had been deprived of important agrarian areas which might be necessary for feeding the population of architecture. And pressed for a larger coherent German area to be treated as an economy. Stanley was other than insisting that because there had been no agreement on the Western Front your opponent before and had had a free hand in the end the Western powers saw no alternative but to give in.

We didn't want to fight the Russians in order to get them out again especially as the war with Japan was still going on and so the result was that in supports them agreement the legal question of Germany's Eastern Bloc was left open. But the provisional ministration of the territories was in question up to the road and to westernize rivers by Putin was confirmed. In 1945 the Allies could have decided on the total abolition of the German allies. They would have found little resistance among the defeated German population. Twenty one years ago every German was mainly preoccupied with physical survival. There was no time for politics nor time to lament the loss of nearly a quarter of German territory. Only years later would recollection of the homeland become a political factor in German life while the great stream of ex-police diminished to a steady

trickle in late 1946. A new population shift began. These were people dissatisfied with the economic and political pressures in the Soviet occupied zone of Germany. Between 1946 and 1961 three point four million East Germans left for the West. Among them Elizabeth Marcus and her children. One could say of them what Lenin said of the Zaurus desert is in 1917 they were voting for freedom with their feet. I escaped in March. 953 I earn my money as a Clark internationalized victory. We were about fourteen people then in one room all of us where again that system but they tried to get a spy into our department. But we knew would that this boy was a spy. From then on we knew that all our names and facts about

our families and our lives. Well when your own secret then in general you have nineteen hundred and fifty three. One morning they were there for us who didn't come to the office. It came up they were in prison. I got word friend. That I should be the next one could be summoned up there and. I didn't dare to endure that. And that was that because I went away with my children. I left all my things behind me. I locked up my daughter and went one morning in the darkness of a march of mourning. I went away with both my children and I went on to eastern Berlin was both of them had only two bags. We came through because on that very day there were five thousand persons who left the Russian zone then and we were only three of them.

And we came over to Western Berlin without any difficulty until five years ago West Berlin harbored hope Berlin in which our parents. It's inflicting stormy towards truck fly at least some died since 1960 until August 13th 1961 was Berlin served as the gateway to freedom for thousands of refugees. It's bizarre definition by now because most of the refugees especially those from East Germany passed through the free part of the city on their way to West Germany or stayed in West Berlin for 16 years this gate to freedom stood wide open. The trains in route to Berlin from East Germany were packed full with refugees.

Fifty five percent of the three point four million refugees were young people averaging 25 years of age. This meant a great drain on the labor force of East Germany a drain that could bring the communist state to economic ruin. Police Sergeant Peter edified who patrolled the East West Berlin frontier in those days recalls the flood of refugees before when the wall was erected they had practically no difficulties at all you see. It was possible for them to come over from the East sector into western Maryland at several. Points. And especially if. They had some luggage with them you could see then from time to time the police on guard on the other side in the east. They made a check and. Most of them you see are arrested and taken away to an unknown point. But those refugees who had no luggage with them you see they

could come over and they had no trouble at all. How many were there a day. As far as I know. I got my information from the newspapers at the time. Practicality. The average number was so 8000 refugees daily. The relentless flight of refugees in itself and negation of communism was becoming an ever growing danger to the economy of the entire East Bloc. Shortly before August 13th 1961. The governments of the East Bloc countries went along with a desperate decree. Early in the morning of August 13th 1961. The gateway to freedom was closed. The wall was built. Since that day nineteen thousand Germans have managed to break through the iron curtain. But 90000 never made. They were caught before they started or they were blown to bits in the minefields to separate east from west Germany.

In 1961 the political flight of millions of Germans ended as dramatically as it began 17 years before. An. With. On the demographers map of population distribution the Federal Republic of Germany is a black blotch between 1945 and 1961 thirteen point three million German X believes and refugees fled to West Germany. These and German experts arrived in West Germany with nothing but the clothes on their back and anonymous ex-police summed up his plight this way.

We had to leave everything behind our farm house. Generations ago our forest tended for centuries our furniture proudly carved all that stayed behind the impoverished victims of the Second World War. We're not always greeted with open arms by their West German countryman sponges rucksack Germans and Germans from the cold front where some of the epithets used by some West Germans while providing for their East German brothers. In these days. The people in the western parts of the former German right. Were sometimes very much annoyed about the refugees because they're suddenly get thousands and thousand and in fact millions of people are coming and everything every little piece of food once reserved for the refugees because they had so many children and they had no place to stay. So the real inhabitants of the Western German cities got very much annoyed because that is that there's bread but only for refugees some fruits but only for

refugees. But it wasn't enough. What interested the refugees most of course was getting enough food to eat then flee back man whose family ended up in the north German province of Shelly's the whole time. Devised his own method in a college town. I saw the Canadians and Americans marching in. They made a big kitchen out of the railway station and I was a little boy I was in very good terms with the Canadians and Americans and they had everything. I was so amazed they had things we never saw for weeks and all kinds of bananas fruits and meat and what they threw away was just amazing. And so I practically fed my family because I was a good friend as a little boy of those Canadians and Americans. In those days American cigarettes were the most valuable commodity on the virtually nonexistent German market. The most that anyone could buy was an accompanying ashtray. Leftovers from the ceramic industry. Professor Cort was

on time a lecturer on political science at the Free University of Berlin. We all had to start from the zero point as one says especially after forty eight when the country film was introduced. And in that respect the refugees we have put not quite on the same level but they came close to the same level as other schools. And then the government made a lot of legislation favoring the refugees to put them on an equal basis with those who had. It kept the processions and other branches so. And actually it was easy in that times of distress and extreme the society has actually come in and they would have been in a developed situation before establishing some kind of social equilibrium between ex-police and natives. The governors of the occupied zones had first to provide housing 40

percent of all dwellings were destroyed in Germany the hunt for living quarters was the number one conversation piece among expertise. Not everybody solved the problem as easily as guard Pasternak who fled with his family from Brandenburg to Berlin. But it was later destroyed by shells. Another one quite soon. How come. Well in the house where we live Nazi official also lived and of course when the Russians came in he was forced to leave. He was arrested and because his apartment not every apartment housed a Nazi official. In other words there were no vacant apartments. You once had to be built before construction was completed. Millions of Germans lived in barracks or compounds. In 1950 the Walter report of the American House of Representatives described the housing shortage as critical most of the refugee families had no kitchen of their own

nor their own toilet or a bathroom. They have taken over cellars and rooms in damaged houses deserted by their former occupants. Hundreds of thousands of refugees have ingeniously contrived the semblance of a house out of ruins. On a cold day and every German city smoke can be seen emerging from stove pipes sticking up through the rubble or at night lights appear from chinks in houses which would be thought totally uninhabitable. A survey was made in one Westphalian County in 1947. What showed the catastrophic change in housing status of the refugees as compared with that and their places of origin. A total of five thousand three hundred eighty two families were interviewed families five thousand two hundred thirty two were now living in one room only each to avoid I'm due pressure up on dwellings and to meet emergency conditions. The local housing authorities used many types of buildings for mass housing

principle among these were the air raid shelters are bunkers as they are called. These are huge long low buildings made of reinforced concrete and completely without windows are outside openings other than the heavily encased entrances at 1am myriads of cave like rooms open off the narrow passage ways. Life in artificial caves. The shock and aftermath of the expulsion and flight. No exit from a den of misery. A time when Joseph Cardinal Franks of Cologne absolved the faithful who stole code to keep warm. Never had a country been so utterly defeated. Dr. Manfred Morris an expert on the question of expert leaves and refugees. As a result a war destruction fright and expulsion. And that of about cried Marion how if in the rectum part of Germany affected to expel is especially high while in 1915 only twenty two percent of the parents were accommodated in our ranks. The

figure had risen to 69 percent in 1960. About 4 billion dollars for the birthing of the wedding for the expelled if and for the disbandment of camps in one of these camps of bombed out houses lived Elizabeth Marcus with her children in the same year 1953. They fled from the Soviet occupied zone. One day their cream social worker found a Protestant church looking out for some families with many children which were seen before. To get new frets in a big settlement that has been built in that time this was a social settlement especially for those persons or was always where had been bombed out and that kind of people. And we were among the happy ones who were taken out of that house. Late in

September. Nineteen hundred and fifty three. Only a happy year after having left our home in middle Germany we had a little flat about 50 square metre and I could take all my children to me. So with their 5 persons there in that new flat providing adequate housing for the ex-policeman refugees was not enough for true integration. They had to find work as long as refugees remained unemployed and live from the arms of their countrymen. Their lives remained a psychological torture. Professor court long time are the main problem for most of the refugees was to get hold in the new country and do it. So I mean there are lots of histories side histories and better ones about that. Particular story of a particular individual.

And there have been some resistances on the part of the home population in the West German areas against the refugees. But on the whole one must say that the population has been ready to take them in. However the desire of the East German refugees to be integrated economically ran counter to reality. The factories in the industrial roar were idle. The problem of integration was compounded by the geographic distribution of the refugees because of the strategic situation at the end of the war. The great majority of refugees fled to Lower Saxony the whole time or Bavaria the traditional bread baskets of Germany. There was little employment to be found in these regions. Only 10 percent of the farmers who fled from the eastern provinces of the German I would ever go back to farming land. Most of them could not do farming so they had to find some other jobs and it was due to the big and great development of German industry

of what we call the Dutch etc. and that these people could be integrated into new professions. And nowadays there is no big problem of that kind anymore. Professor court is on time before this integration could be realized. The German state would have to dig deep today it appears as though this integration of export leaves and refugees has been affected only 50000 refugees from the Soviet occupied zone as well as emigrants from Eastern and Southeast Europe live in West German refugee camps in terms of money this integration amounts to 40 billion dollars behind this figure is hidden Another fact all export leaves and refugees had to face a decline in their social status. In 1955 in speaking about refugees Oist the federal Republic's first president said he who is forced to flee or is expelled under pressure loses all security.

You can only salvage his Legget existence. He takes with them his knowledge ability and experience these qualities are always dormant capital. Which. In my. Eyes. Over 13 million refugees an ex-police have activated this dormant capital to the benefit of the Federal Republic. But they will never achieve that social status they knew before. These men and women are the silent losers of the Second World War. On the twenty seventh of August bands were playing on West Berlin as many square

schoolchildren dressed in blue shirts and white knee socks were distributing pamphlets to curious passer bys. The leaflets were invitations to an assembly of Expelled lees to be held in West Berlin. The following day 10000 ex-police were in attendance. They assembled in colorful native costumes typical of Siler East Prussia and other regions east of the older and wiser rivers. The theme of the rally was Fatah Lunt. I hope our homeland Fatherland Europe. These three words embrace a political position on the whole the more than 13 million X believes residing in the federal republic form an unpredictable political element in the country. All of them share one experience in common contact with communism. There is no doubt that this experience by refugees of communist occupation has been very important in forming the very strong anti

communist attitude in western Germany. It would have been strong without that too. But I should say that this particular experience was very important for me just added to it one can see that from the fact that some of the regional associations of the big parties like that will understand order nice which are formed by people from the eastern territories and more and anti-communist. Then the bulk of the party is Professor cortisone timer of the Free University of Berlin the ex-police did not only join the large political parties they formed their own because these parties were short lived. They reflect the conservatism of the refugees who preferred the traditional parties their loyalty to any one party however has been a matter of political conjecture for this reason the parties went all out to vote from this uncertain political element. On

July 28 1953 former chancellor Conrad out an hour spoke to a group of scientists an ex-police saying The time will come when you will return to your old homeland. Remain steadfast and do not become a large arm our first mass without its own identity. Exactly when this day would come was not clear to anybody not even to the chancellor but playing on the ex-police sympathies had its reasons and its results. Professor Richard Blumenthal of the Free University of Berlin for many years he expertly exercised very large influence on the official attitude of the federal government was a major part. Simply because these experience constitute a major organized lobby and well nobody knew how many of six people that would really be control and deliver that experience.

Everybody was afraid of losing even one or two million to the opposite party. By antagonizing this organized log on June 28 1956 the West German government declared the right to one's homeland on the right of self-determination are the undeniable prerequisites for aiding these peoples and individuals who endure political bondage and expulsion. This rash of hyme art as it is called in German has caused considerable confusion in political discussion in Germany not to speak of the countries that came up. You always hear of the expulsions and they really are and what that first man was a model protest the idea that the right of people not to be forcibly separated from their homes not to be uprooted by mass deportations was a kind

of natural right comparable to as an actual human life. As far as that goes I have a great deal of sympathy with this concept. What it means for you is that Mr. potations ought not to be a legitimate means of solving political issues. One case. And as a known to be added to the code of civilized nations I see it's a great political it's a very good thing. It's a first but then as time passed the question shifted from our approach to political progress. Political scientist live and our political expert leaves are wonders between two worlds. They live in the West but they're not style jerks directed towards their last homeland the political

manifestation of this which has two aspects is reflected in the barn lobby league of X believes first of the ideology of the right to the homeland has become a basic part of the German foreign policy. The second aspect is a looser dated by Professor Logan to the present policy of the communist state with regard to these questions is determined by two quite different factors. One is a quick fact of genuine national interest and security and particularly on the part of Poland regards the territory which it has partly recovered and back again for the first time in 1945 as a vital part of present day Putin doesn't want to negotiate about them again and want to confirm this is a common attitude of all those communist and noncommunist examples include in that sense

of course all people opposed to the education of six pretty uniques for repletion massive division of CS from. In addition there is a quite difficult factor and that is that the present communist regime in Poland wants to keep the question of German revisionist alive as a way of cementing Polish national unity under its leadership. Therefore all who are opposed to her vision is German propaganda. The Polish Communist government practically needs that with vision this German propaganda and when the German public opinion changes as it has changed in recent years and once the influence of the X police goes down and the willingness of the German people in the Fed.

To come to a vacancy issue this problem becomes more and more obvious this is a webcam for instance by the police Catholic Church. But if you're sleepy night and it's fine it's possible Going to sleep once a Polish people but they're convinced that the lack of reconciliation on the part of the Polish government will hardly change the influence of the League of X believes on bans foreign policy. However one thing is clear to every observer of the political discussion in the Federal Republic concerning those areas east of the older nicer line the discussion has little to do with the younger X believes many of them have married West Germans they have cultivated the manners and habits of Hamburg Munich and cologne lasting contacts among ex-police themselves are almost lost. What then links them with their old home country. When fully developed man who escaped from East Prussia in 1945.

I can remember very well by now there were two little legs it was marvelous. Many lakes in East Prussia and of course a marvelous countryside so much space and so are living now in western Germany and frightened by the many people in their space you could walk and walk during the boards for days and you met nobody. Professor cortisone timer defines the smoke there is a strong bond for every human. The home country in which he was born and natural she lived there again. And there is this feeling of nostalgia going back to the same place. Which one should not underestimate. And so they tried to proclaim to make a legal device out of it in proclaiming the right of the home country. Germany's political parties see no reason to relinquish this right to the home country. On August 28 1966 vice chancellor elite mender

addressed 10000 expertise in West Berlin. Whether it's peace note on March 25 1966 the federal government has let the world know that it is ready to establish contact with eastern and southeastern European nations as well. However to remove injustice by acknowledging it on the other hand is an illusion which does not need closer political consideration. Yeah. I know. We are entitled to a peace treaty from the victories of the Second World War which I have signed would finally conclude the second world war. In spite of these words all German politicians know very well that the claim to the territories east of the Oder nice a line is only a trump card in the

game for German reunification. This is so because the settlement of the overnighter question is provisional. Professor Levantine international role it is published there has been a peace treaty. There has been no final settlement and this is an important matter. Not only it was a representatives of these populations but also for the federal government because even if one doesn't believe that these two point yes can be changed at any rate it can be a major change. It is important. In the view of the federal government to leave this as an item on the agenda for German peace treaty it is important for the simple reason that the Federal Republic wants an almost peace treaty in other words a peace treaty which shatters at the same time different use of Germany and the unity of what remains of

Germany and the fact that the Soviet Union and the communist states oppose a common peace treaty for all of Germany and want only treaties with two separate states. So from the point of view of the fellow Republicans it is important to have an issue which is in this your major interest principle and to let the lesser extent Atrix look at it as an opiate use you to which the present government will agree only in all German peace treaty not because there are many Russians about it vision of peace for it but because they want to settle it saying that the question of unity between Western and Eastern. The foreign policy of the Federal Republic though considerably influenced by the League of X believes has less and less to do with the ex-police original interests. Much to the dismay of the League of X police

officials fewer and fewer ex police actually lay claim to the right to Homeland theory. On June 12 1965 Federal Chancellor LWT week Erhard described the ex-police as the most faithful citizens of the Federal Republic. The integration according to the chancellor was accomplished today. Not the question concerning German territory under Polish administration but the reunification of East and West Germany remains a bomb's problem number one. This was also clearly underlined by a German ally on March 25th 1950 not the words of French President Hugo. They complete free re-unification of both parts of Germany appears to lost sight of the normal destiny of the German populace with the understanding that the present boundaries to the west east north and south will not be questioned. Twenty one years after World War Two it seems that the homeland territory

is lost for ever. For those X believes east of the older Nysa Nevertheless the political representatives will not entirely give up their hope a hope crystallized in a new word in the vocabulary of the expert leaves. The word is Europe. They believe that a united Europe will bring with it a return to their homeland. Thus 13 million ex-police and refugees in the Federal Republic remain exactly what they were for West Germany at the wars and. A minority with an invigorating political influence on the majority of the German people. People in flight was written and produced for radio Deutsche of Ella called on West

Germany by Michael Naumann. Narrator was Robert Monteagle other speakers were Jack Graham Marlene Benish and William Taylor. Now WGBH Boston is former correspondent in Germany. CROCKER snow interviews Professor Alona Evans about some of the subjects raised. Miss Evans is the chairman of the political science department of Wellesley College and a specialist on the problems of refugees and political asylum. Professor evidence regarding the historical aspects of this phenomenon of refugees in West Germany today we heard this mass flight shortly after the end of the war. Describe it as something partly from fear in other words voluntarily on the part of the refugees and partly deliberate as instigated by the Russians. Now does this ring true. Well I suppose one would say to be certain satisfaction of the rush would be necessary if they are going to to remove German

influence from the area that they rid themselves of this minority which would be forever a menace to their own ambitions in the area with the ambitions of the. States which are within their orbit. As So in that respect one can see why there was the expulsion of the Germans. There were really two classes that weren't there the those who were expelled and those who left voluntarily. To be sure they expect these much larger class something NOT million I believe but those who left voluntarily as they did almost three million people fled just from East Germany into West Germany and their different group. They may not wish to return. Which of the groups would you apply the phrase voting with their feet to the to the latter group the latter group. And how do you distinguish the two between voluntary and involuntary. Yes they made a choice they were dissatisfied with the political situation

or other aspects that we might use that word loosely political situation but of course it would be. For them. Many of them it would be persecution on account of race religion political opinion the three considerations. They made a choice. The ex-pat Leigh's forced out. They all combined to make refugees. This thing has an interesting recent angle if you call the East Germans have just adopted a nationality law at the end of February and it is a indelible nationality law that is anyone who has left East Germany is considered also an East German national. How far though I haven't seen the text of the law but how far this carries I don't know. Suppose a person leaves East Germany and settles in West Germany because he's a German by the standards of the government of West Germany since there is but one nationality. But even if such a person were to say go on to another country and adopt the nationality of that country and indelible nationality law on the part of East Germany

would mean that this person had a dual nationality and might indeed find himself subjected to pressure by East Germany. In his current Homeland Is there any parallel at all between this and the experience of the many refugees from the north down to South Vietnam after the Geneva Conference of 1954. You mean this type of pressure. Yes. Oh yes and I think an even more interesting example has been that it was in the whole movement instigated by the Russians and carried out by many of the countries in their area. The repatriation movement which ran between about nine hundred fifty six in 1960 which had its effect even in this country where pressures were brought to bear on refugees from various parts of Europe.

What sort of pressures are you speaking about though. Well they took two forms they were soft and hard pressures I suppose you could say in the soft method. People were invited to return to the former homeland and they were offered jobs they were told they would have preferred amounts of one sort or another. Add the hard pressure. Well you're obviously. Consisted off telling these people that their friends or family remaining in the homeland would be subjected to to action prosecution or some. There were some instances in which the. Country making that the Maton on people in this country. My turn them in. I say to the immigration authorities for having come here. Without fulfilling all of the immigration law requirements perhaps they had the proper papers or they had lied about their background

or something like that and they would then be turned over so they could be deported or sometimes it was actual pressure brought to bear on them in this country to do acts which my convenience and country putting pressure on. Possibly espionage or something of that sort and this means that this is a very. This whole matter of asylum of admitting. People especially very large numbers of people into a country is an extremely serious matter for the asylum status not just a matter of humanitarianism. It's also a matter of that. On the one hand the protection of the individuals themselves. And I noticed there was no particular reference to that in this discussion that we have been hearing from Germany. Yet. In fact there was a great deal of pressure put on refugees from East Germany and elsewhere in the area who were in West Germany just tremendous pressures to go back. And some of it took the form off the hard line where they were

physically forced or kidnapped and so on to turn it so it's a pressure on the individual and then there is the alternative side the asylum state finds itself. In. Into difficulties one is that unless it has broken off relations with the other country the one putting pressure on it which is to maintain. Peace and conversations. And yet it must needs protect these people these refugees. So this means that there's a good deal of diplomatic negotiation and it can become rather disagreeable times on the other hand the asylum state may find that the refugees are engaged in activity within its bounds which do inhibit its own international relations that is they may set up governments like Zeile and otherwise Sim Gage. In them. What Terry expeditions

against the former homeland which can become quite embarrassing and perhaps even a threat to the asylum. Well we're faced with the situation of this right to the homeland which the various West German leaders have a spouse in which certainly the legal expert will use favor. But on the other hand the feeling among another segment of the German population that this claim for territories and presently in Poland East Germany you know is is only really a trump card which the government holds in return for some sort of further day tall with Easter so so forth and this leaves the refugees and the expertise in a very tenuous position politically I would think. It seems to me likely that. As time passes the younger generation of refugees is not going to hold or expel EAs not going to hold this desire for the homeland. I think that it has been interesting and it's brought out very well in the tape as to

how the refugees and expertise have been used by West Germany by the league itself and by Poland used for their own special political purposes. And one cannot but be sympathetic with the these people who are caught as pawns among the several. Powers playing a game in which the pawns are not likely to win anything. I think it's it has two facets. This whole matter the refugees I think that in most instances in all instances I suspect they grant asylum is done generously for humanitarian reasons. But nonetheless there is always another factor involved which may only emerge later on where you get a different large large mass as West Germany a

people to deal with to integrate into what was at the time when that great bulk came in after the close of the war to integrate all those people into a devastated economy was an enormous job. But what you always have is a. Certain element. Power politics shall we say a certain concern about is what purpose the refugees may serve if they don't become part of the asylum state's general framework. Now I think that the Hungarian refugees example have in this country. Settled in whereas take the Cubans. They many of them I couldn't say how many of these so what is it two hundred thousand more now that they're here many of them do harbor the idea of returning. And that affects our relations with Cuba.

Ultimately one thing of course which the countries stand to gain by this I think is the peculiar Allegiance which the refugees an expert always must show to their newer adopted country. And we noted that Chancellor Erhard has called this group of thirteen point three million in West Germany the most quote the most faithful citizens of the Federal Republic and perhaps this in fact is the thing that the country stands to gain by this humanitarian act. Of course in the case of West Germany in particular the Certainly a large number of those persons two point eight million for example they came out in the 15 years up to the time of the Wall thanks be the political refugees were the. Professional middle class which was to the advantage of country was very fortunate indeed and which is why the world was wrecked. The tremendous drain of talent and we ourselves in this country of course

benefited enormously by exactly the same thing when Hitler. Ousted a Jewish refugee they became Jewish refugees in this country before the Second World War and I think we benefit too by those who have come in from Cuba and from Hungary just to name a few. There is a great benefit here. At V. I think the real problem the refugee has is whether or not he can he will settle in to the asylum state or whether he will harbor the desire to return and therefore use the asylum state as a vehicle for achieving this other purpose. Now you also have the problem which we don't often have in fact we only have it relative to Cuba and that is where countries that state a first. Asylum. Which West Germany was of course for these people the East Germans and then you have the problem of those who come in and then move on. Which was a case of Hi Gary and is coming to Austria and hence from Austria either to

Germany or into the United States. In that course of travel I think that for the persons involved there may come a. A determination of what their objectives are and often times those people who move on to the country of second asylum do this deliberately and sense of becoming immigrants and stay permanently. It makes a different attitude matter for the asylum status not just a matter of humanitarianism. It's also a matter of on the one hand the protection of the individuals themselves. And I noticed there was no particular reference to that in this discussion that we've been hearing from Germany yet. In fact there was a great deal of pressure put on refugees from East Germany and elsewhere in the area who were in West Germany just tremendous pressures to go back. And some of it took the form off the hard line where they were physically forced or

kidnapped and so on to turn it so it's a pressure on the individual and then there is the alternative side the asylum state finds itself in them. Into difficulties one is that unless it has broken off relations with the other country the one putting pressure on it wishes to maintain. Peace and conversations. And yet it must needs protect these people these refugees. So this means that there's a good deal of. Diplomatic negotiation and it can become rather disagreeable times on the other hand. The Asylum state may find that the refugees are engaged in activity within its bounds which do inhibit its own international relations that is they may set up governments and exile and otherwise in gauging in them what Terry expeditions against the former homeland which can become

quite an embarrassment perhaps even a threat to the asylum. Well now. The other thing on the problem is the personal problems of some of these refugees we've heard that the term that they were the silent losers of World War 2 and that they had the problem of housing and also trying to find a reasonable job when they first began to assimilate into the society of West Germany what other problems would be involved in this from a personal point of view. Well I suppose in the case of West Germany there would be it's really involved in what's been said. The comment from that German Take the housing the food occupation integration into profession social adjustment these were the five problems which they faced. There would also be simply the adjustment to

a different part of the country itself with a different tradition even though it's all Germany and those from the east. I don't know East Germany having everything. You know but that it has I understand this has been it was an agrarian you bury in part of Germany and that the whole point of view was undoubtedly different they people then had to adjust to the industrial west. That would be one problem and then as I suggest this problem of pressure brought to bear by the ex homeland on at least one class of these people that is those who are the political refugees to make them return which then of course terminates with the establishment of the wall. So now you have only a trickle of them getting out the ex-pat Leigh's of course are in a different category they were forced out and stay out permanently I don't want them back and.

I think for them the great problem was been this matter. Of being uprooted with a desire to return. You see this there are two sides of this right. We have this problem with our own Cuban refugees here. Those who wish to integrate into our way of life in this country and those who harbor the desire to return to their own here temporarily bad just now I am glad you brought this up I'm wondering if it is customary and universally for refugees and in the countries that they go to to form political groups as the Germans apparently have in this group and titled The League of expertise which has been quite an important political force is this customary throughout the world. It's a likely development of course in the German case you had a large mass of people coming in and you have the factor of the continuity of the West Germany of course with the area from which they

left so that this was a very last likely action on their part form a political party or and or else participate in politics in one way or another sir. Working with the major parties and or form lobbies as was mentioned in the tape. In our case if you recall from time to time there emerges in the press evidence that did some Cuban refugee groups have thought of themselves as governments in exile or have established themselves in political code you release which perhaps are not so to be so grandly described as governments in exile but which have political ambitions and from time to time the location really makes. For a Cuba or endeavor to do so. It was one last year which had to get squashed Louise.

Yes it can be very difficult. Now do you feel that this right to the whole.