Studio Talk; Form in Flux

Some pedigree after only two generations of life forms of truth theme three forms influxes are your topic this evening. We have three guests in the studio and I'd like them to identify themselves. Thank you Arthur I'm Betty Meyer Mrs. Eugene Meyer the wife of the minister of the operating out carcase church and wait watch and I teach at the Boston University School of Theology. I'm surely can I misread you. And I'm chairman of Rush out on the panel this evening our every moment is assistant professor Masters it's hard you know we weren't very present for we have associates forums in flux is the title of the next mission and paintings and sculpture have. The open door. Oh bring beo Congregational Church and I'm wondering why you use the title forms in floods surely

can. Well as we have said you know our belief that that we have set out. May I quote this for you. 20th Century Man inhabits a world in which the boundary lines between the familiar disciplines are no longer clear. The artist the religionist the scientists all struggle with new vocabularies and visions of meaning which though born of one field live move and have being in yet another. We feel suspended in a state of flux. How do forms and clocks relate to your previous name. Forms of truth. Believe me they struggle and each time we've had a show in the first place with just whether we want to have a theme at all are not Arthur this is always a question. The first show we really called it an Easter celebration of art

and just invited a professional artist to give us anything which they felt was appropriate to an Easter celebration. However just before our second show was the time when John F. Kennedy was dedicating the Robert Frost library and we happened to be reading I think it was an Atlantic in the Atlantic copy of his speech in which he said something about art nourishing the roots of our culture and that this was a desirable thing and if we wanted it we had to be willing to go where whatever path the artist took us and that we must remember that art is not a form of propaganda but a form of truth. And the more we thought about that the more we agreed with it. And so we call that show forms of truth. And then this time as you remember surely we. We decided that

we would keep this for all the shows to come about change it only by number and then with of different emphasis and I write it right where the earth is suspicious anyway. We have specialists of a church because I think a church would surely generally be associated with it being interested in earth for propaganda purposes. This was also suspicious of a theme which again could suggest some good propaganda devices. Yes I think so. I think maybe not as much so now we hope we have established patterns that make them not as suspicious but I think this is less true and the beginning in fact. I remember well that after we sent out our first letters we didn't hear anything from artists for a long time two or three weeks went by and we thought well it was a good idea just didn't work and then we had a telephone call from quite a well-known woman

artist who said what's the gimmick. And we said really no gimmick. And she said Are you raising money for something. And with said no it was really purely educational fun Kyra geisha and the community and friends and. I think it took a while to convince her and others that it was really just education other when she was going to has she went back and apparently spoke to the art community because I think the first show we had a hundred and thirty six paintings and 18 pieces of sculpture. Oh that's a big deal. We had two big Arthur but we were quite naive and didn't know where the more selective now thanks to your help and Ed and the video moments and a great many others we have. It's been a learning experience for all of us at the church.

How do these exhibitions work into educational programming to charge the main concerns of the church. Well we always try to have a series of lectures gallery talks pad all of this kind of thing which goes along with the show. Why don't you read perhaps those we've listed this time surely. Well the show goes for three weeks and each Tuesday evening we're having a speaker Professor Yun Cox from the Museum School of first week Dr. Harvey Cox from the divinity school his second week and Dr. Jack Goldstein from Brandeis on science this third week and on a Saturday afternoon mistreated to Lisi from the project Art School in Cambridge is going to do a gallery talk and then an experience of art with the children take them downstairs and have them do something. And Dr. Welch is going to

give us two gallery talks after Sunday service. Two Sundays. There that we think is educational but mostly it's just the people as far as the parish is concerned who come to the church for one reason or another the United exhibit is there. And the more times they see it the more it has meaning for them. What type of meaning do you hope that it will have for you. I'm understanding of what the current artists are doing. I've been going to hope that church people who tend to be somewhat conservative in their attitudes because religion tends to be conservative anyway might be pushed into new ways of thinking things when they see what modern artists are doing when artists are presenting very different forms of experience and that which we associate with traditionally in any kind of church organization and moment.

It seems that there in recent years has been. A kind of rash of. Odd exhibitions which have been sponsored by religious groups. I wonder if could you answer whether what your opinion is as to whether he just happens it aht is a neat little package too. To assist the church in a social way or do you feel that there may have there may be a real and genuine awakening all church people to what the contemporary out US is trying to say and possibly an understanding on the part of the church people that what the artist is trying to say somehow relates to what they themselves are trying to say.

I'd like for Dr. to speak to this in a minute because after all his professional in this home field but first of all I'd like to say that I as a person as an individual feel first of all that this that experience is a very can to the religious experience and that we do. Apprehend spiritual truth. And the same way the artist and the religionist. And then I think I have that leaders and the church are confronted with 20th century law if just as all of man are today and that they think what the contemporary artist is saying. For instance through pop an op on this kind of thing has something to say to the man in the pew. Perhaps we can talk about that a little later about class divide what do you think about Ed's right you think the right I think is basically sincere and

heart show really isn't a terribly social thing. It's an experience which relates one to a work of art not to one's neighbors so it isn't a matter of them being having fun together with somebody else and I think it's born is a very new thing is born out of a real awareness of some people in the church and the way the church is simply going to step in what's going on in the world and the artists are really telling us something about our world in a very powerful and important way we have to pay attention. I think sometimes the church has a bad day. I'm sure that out of inexperience and lack of understanding some of the art festivals are shows what churches do. I would not win much respect from the community of herders. And the other him I think there are a few places in society which is reaching out as much as a church may be in you know toward the artist who sometimes really offends his public. I'm more curious about why the artist cooperate because I can understand where the church is a minister by men and women surprise about the earnest actually you know submitting their work to such shows and so I would expect as I suggested before they would be suspicious

and. It's. Not I think the artist is happy to have his paintings seen anywhere major basically basically basically that's probably that's probably the first answer to that. And very frankly the artist is interested in finding outlets whereby you know his work can be seen. But I tend to think that. Probably your point of view what you are trying to do interests the artist and this so-called distrust it has I think evaporated considerably if not completely. I think that you know I think that the church honors the artist's work by

trying to tie itself in with what the artist might be trying to do I say a sort of spiritual experience. This as I say I think this honors the artist work and and I think for that reason if for no other the artist would want to cooperate with with the church in putting these exhibitions on. I think there's a great deal of interest in me ranging types of experience of the human being is capable and I think it's interesting that you think that the artistic experience 30 years may in some way related to religious experience or give a review wrongly. Oh that's right. I feel that and yet sometimes I'm an articulate when I try to talk about this. It's and that's of all experience and itself I think and

not easy to talk about and I think that many things they are just feels and thinks about it are not easy for him to talk about Therefore he creates through paint or sculpture in some other way. And so I have always felt nearest to whatever power is behind the universe. Through an experience of art and that's why I've long coveted this experience for other people. And I think that our congregation has come a long way and it's understanding of the variety of art farms and what the artist is trying to do. And when we first started and I do see some relevance to the work that you're just trying to do you notice the lectures this year all address themselves

to the theme of flux and that Dr. Goldstein who is head of the astrophysics Institute at Brandeis I think it is particularly interesting to see that out on the outer edges of science. I think he works and tould a really and creative lay just as the churchman are the artist works. I noticed that looking over the list of artists there are many areas which might be considered for an instant deal primarily with the secular world against material things and I wonder why they were selected for a show they would be dealing with forms in flux. Would you like to speak to that. We said the artists and the Ritz you better play me like wise and what we had in mind.

And I asked them if they would be interested in. Being part of the show if they responded saying they were interested we assumed they knew what we were attempting to do. But maybe after you were asking why we didn't choose some artists who were trending directly more religious subject matter. Is this what you were thinking about in content. I'd like to get back to a subject matter and propaganda a little bit later because I'm not sure that I go along with that that part of what you've said so far but I'm just wondering you know there are there are people who are interested in the experience of of one type of people who are interested in the experiences of another type. How much wood would be more appropriate. I'd say you're in a bar room as opposed to a chair. Well you know there was a young professor at Harvard who's written a book

called the Secular City in which he by the way that book has sold more copies as a paperback book than I think any other paperback this year. But he is pointing out that the problems of the secular world today and in choosing these artists you spoke of them as secular. I don't know what exactly in my own mind how I define the term secular or if we can then be separate that from. I'm winding myself up and I'm not sure I can have some sort of guessing what you want to do is suggest that the division between religious and secular is perhaps I'm silly. This is really what morals and flux means that the boundary lines which are separating are used to separate areas of experience from each other no longer are rigid anymore

and is no longer a sure thing that you can say this is a religious experience or this is a secular area of life. But there one may find in what we might have a year or so called secular area the kind of concern the kind of experience or response which has religious depth to it it is like to merely profane. But what else would you be willing to accept the idea that anyone who is involved in any type of creative act is involved in some sort of religious experience. When traditionally the word creation is a religious word and if this still carries any meaning other than simply putting things together at the very lowest level there's still an echo of something more than mere manipulation involved. Suppose the person who is involved with this and his type of creating that would feel that it is something that he accomplishes by himself

without dealing with any religious overtones in any way. Would you still include him in an your definition. This is because a matter of tact because you don't like to tell someone they're religious when they're trying very hard not to be and when they're trying hard not to be usually means you're trying to disassociate themselves from some stereotypes and some notion of religion is usually related to specific traditions which they are very critical of which they don't want to be associated with. And you have to respect this. If religious meant hanging heretics in Boston Common as it once meant I would want to associate with either. And I resent someone trying to say that I was religious because my work had some quality in it which had this big connotation to it as well. I suppose I wouldn't want to try to tell some of the religious I would try to understand and perhaps find a way of communicating at the level of deeper concern which I might feel was representing such a work.

They were very I think the fact that the churches are turning toward the artist and. Wondering a little bit why it is going in that direction rather than the artist turning toward the churches may be explained by what White has been saying I think the artist isn't thinking about the churches as much as the churches are thinking about the artist they're wondering whether this may be a new form perhaps equivalent even to the revivalist testimonials you know where where actually they are just in putting his work in front of the church maybe giving testimony. I think that's the word that was once used in these fundamentalist kind of meetings giving testimony in the sense that he was displaying for a congregation his apprehension his participation in anesthetic experience. And if this is as Barry Meier has suggested akin to

the religious experience this kind of testimony is a good thing for a person somebody else to observe and try to understand and maybe begin to share. But Walsh I would go along with I think some art is very personal and one that I think could do with this are not contradictory additional religious terms but simply recognizing it as a kind of confession of the person the artist and the word confession itself is a traditionally religious word the root of it being the Latin word for faith or artists who are not oriented toward that kind of are within themselves more professional terms again would be processing something and this has the same I'm hoping the same kind of connotation. But even if this were not true and some people still would think it were not art in a way it is a kind of news bulletin on the condition of man. And even if the

artist doesn't think of his work in any way as religious or connected with the church I would still think that the church should be interested and the work that the artist is doing because the church should be interested in. The world and which it lives and moves and has a being and the work of the artist tells us a lot about this world as a kind of a news bulletin. I think it does more than convey information is a kind of judgment sometimes. Yes that's right and it is in this sense I think it's carrying a kind of prophetic function is telling us about ourselves the truth which we don't want to know what brought about this change in thinking. It wasn't too long ago that an artist would have very little to do with with the church. Thank most of us had the experience of feeling as though we had an drummed out of the church. And I'm now on the certainly the church seems to have some sort of interest in what artists are you know I can remember listening to many

sentiments about me meet evils of abstract art as an abstract artist. You see any evil in him and I just couldn't sit there and listen. Well in this respect the church is perhaps only 50 years behind the artists themselves is around 1911 the 1912 or some of the best known artists of the time were and they have tremendous yelps of the new artists who are moving into new areas and presenting very hard looking pictures or what seem to be on the pictures. Right now I think 50 years behind the times is right it's a pretty terrible thing to say it was a conservative institution like the church. I think we can say pretty clearly that their religion is in flux now. Oh yes and seeking after understanding of forms in flux as they try to grab a close feel of the contemporary world is very understandable. Well I'm sure all of you have been reading in the newspapers and magazines about the young

death of God theologians and that the clear divisions within the world of religion and the Church are all defined now. People say they're not sure if they're should be labeled as liberals or New York the dock's agnostics atheists there are just a lot so that I think we also wanted to point this out by our I mean in flux. And now they're looking at the list of artists and considering the theme of the exhibition. Were you able with I suppose with the time and facilities to set this exhibition up were you able to seek out a special group of August whose work typifies the themes are is this group

what may have been available at them at the moment and along with maybe several Augusts who whose work very definitely goes along with a form in flux. Again we try to get advice generally from artists. You were one of them I believe when we talked about this and several people were suggested that had not been around these shows and we attempted to get people that would carry it out. I think there will be some works which do not point this up maybe quite as much and just this week I was down in the gallery in which I happened to see. But they I had never seen this before perhaps you had what they call shaped canvases and which they really were becoming sculptured canvases now I would love to have something like that in the show because it seems to me that it does address itself right to the theme. But

this is a show thats in progress right now in a gallery and apparently one of the very newest things. So in one way we were handicapped as you said Ed by the time and facilities and so forth. I think we will have a good many things which will speak to the theme and others that we wistfully look for and couldn't find this is of course impossible for a church to do as well perhaps as a gallery. The word I'd like to suggest that it may prove that this happy relationship between the churches and the artists will not last very long. I think they're all low that there is a basis for something in common between them. This kinship between the aesthetic and the religious experience. Fundamentally I think religion is chasing after understanding of man's relationship and ways

of working with his fellow man. And I think the artist is a little bit too alone and aloof from that serious involvement with social relationships as such to make the marriage of the church an artist last very long. Now I know the artist does participate north of the social protest movements and is out there up for a civil rights and some one of these not uninvolved but I think of the church's aptitude and concern with man's relationship with his fellow man is quite different from the artist's involvement with that question. You must think this through I mean my first reaction was that I think in general I think probably the patronage which the church is now giving to the arts in the form of art festivals and so on probably shouldn't last too long if it works it should mean that instead of the church having to have special our shows church people be

oriented toward the arts and receptive to them they were going to museums and galleries and be purchasing paintings rather than having these these Special Affairs instructor catch up with what's going on in the arts. What is distressing about the second him your statement was the the unstated implication that there was some radical division between artists in the church which is insurmountable I suppose a few artist do go to church just as some artists are about in social protest movement over the category of artist is not mutually exclusive from the category of people interested in religion and that there is not any unnecessary enmity between the two. And perhaps once the artist has discovered that the Church as such is not deaf or hostile to art he would no longer have to feel the same kind of defensive attitudes toward religious doctrines and so on. Well I think I just grab on to a small logical crutch there and say that I don't think that. What I tried to say was that I don't thank that artist and the church I'm necessarily going to

remain joined and have anything very fundamental forever to keep them joined. That doesn't mean that I don't think they must be apart from each other that the harvest must stay out of the churches. Doesn't work both ways but I don't think that the fundamental thing that has joined them for the short range now. This mutual involvement in the short range will is going to last for a very long time I think there's a need for one. As you pointed out to learn a little more about the other. But I say neutral involvement thing is really a relatively limited involvement. It's not it's not an open use of them. There are a few groups here if you do so you're very right. You're right I think you're probably jumping ahead and begun talking about this. This relationship thing is really established. No I think there are. Far too many churches who are not even aware that there has been this

movement that this is why I spend a great deal of my time as far as possible speaking to smaller large churches and trying to communicate something of this whole experience to them. I think perhaps the feeling that the artist is the solitary person who doesn't Monica get too involved in the organized church as such which I thought perhaps you were saying. I would agree with I'm sure there aren't very many of them who are at all interested in going to a thousand committee meetings at a church or being chairman of this group or that group and I don't think any of us would expect them to do this their work is a solitary work and they have a need time to do it. But I think the fact that that at the time of the

Renaissance the Reformation when the church in one sense sent the artist away to the church was suspicious of the contribution of the artist. I think that time has come to a close and that as long as we recognize that each has a gift to give the other. We will follow parallel paths maybe and he can still create alone but feel the supportive arms of the church and movement. I think that Dwight hit it right on the head when he mentioned the church as a patron of the contemporary artist and seems to have today. The big corporations are they are the real patrons of the artist. Not even not even the corporations but you you can you can go into contemporary C

editors here around Boston and find more hot on their walls and you might find on many many church walls. And I think that. The real joining our conciliation. Well occur when when the church backs up its supposedly and probably genuine interest in the artist by using the out as through commissions. Paul works in the churches. It isn't part of it and then the artist his man would be very suspicious of any involvement in the arts mainly because of the type of art that has been produced nothing lasts 30 years. The artists who have been involved with church art have not found what we would consider to be a better artist. Well that's almost nice you're hearing on that this morning.

Well unless you consider leisure and mighty says inferior artist would you say that the majority of the churchyard was produced by this. No no it's very sad very sad. There's a. Lot No that's very true. Most of us say America's major eyes certainly have not been involved. But this doesn't mean that it's a closed door. But there are religious art groups set up to produce art specifically for churches. Yes and I guess it would be the enlightened church man who would turn his back on the so-called production by religious AI production people and turn to what professional artists and sculptors who are outside of this sort of clothes shop for their father work to be put into churches. I was very proud that we have. Commissioned

our first piece of sculpture and I hope that there will be others to come and which we called and we talked with several different men got advise from various people that we respected in the art world and brought in a young sculptor from the beginning and carried it through and then paid for a work of art for our own for a year as we enter the church. And we had the artist the sermon was preached that Sunday morning around this experience and then the artist and his family met with us for coffee hour after church and it was a delightful experience. The artist and his family told me for them and I know it was for the congregation to have a chance to meet and know this artist and to know that he was like any other person used to be. There is this misunderstanding about you spoke at about

the production of art. I know so many churchmen who do not realize that the galleries are open and they are welcome to go in and browse. They don't know much about the prizes of art how relate to judge and so many ministers that is only now that we are beginning to witness Boston University Colling and Dr. Walsh and this whole field. Isn't this an exception that I don't know any other of seminary around it that has such a chair. You've got a couple places where something very good is being fairly rare so that most ministers have had no training in this area at all. And so when they want to choose alter appointments for the church or in any way they don't know any artist

they'd They don't know how to go about it they admit they're not easy and the easiest thing for them to do is to go down to one of these liturgical art stores where it's very sad the things that are. But through just like a factory and many times they pay almost as much as they would pay an artist to good produce something handsome for them and original. Yes yes but somehow we were talking about advertising a little earlier. Somehow the artist has to make the church across the country away or that they are interested in doing things for the church so long we've been apart that I think the church thinks the artist is only interested in following the line of the content he's been working with. Do you think that's any different now that you've been apart

so long that's what you think that the artist is true. The line the artist is trying to follow. And isn't that just as true now have you any reason to believe that the artist is going to make a move toward you. Well I as I have begun to know the artist around Boston now it seems to me that they are cooperative and interested in many of the things that I'm interested in and I think they would be happy for Arkham I think if you dangle the commission quite a few fish from my farm they will cooperate with the moves that you make. You say this with such hesitancy I think you must not agree. I don't think they will make any move whatsoever toward you. You will make all the moves you will make all the these steps you will take all the steps to reach out toward them. I don't think they will reach out toward you. Why would you

think this would be true. Well some of the reasons we spoke up before there are still too suspicious you may not and they are fundamentally operating in and analyzing them so in their approach trying to understand themselves. I don't think they have the same basic aim that you have in reaching out toward others in trying to find as you are a better way of communicating the to a greater number of people. The idea of religious experience and so on I don't think we have talked about this a bit nigh haven't found that artists work at the idea of getting other people to understand and share and I static experience they have it they will create it. If someone else shares it fine if someone else does not share it fine. Whereas you are involved in worrying about why other people do not share such experiences. Or why do you think then they participate. As you mentioned before and all these

because you offer them commission I mean social protest and I think they're just as interested and influencing other people and. I areas of human understanding such as Vietnam the civil rights struggle all these areas they're very sensitive to what goes on and they they react as individuals who once again I agree they are as I said before that I know that they do this but I don't think of that they are as involved as you are in the question of man's relationship to other man. Are you trying to say the very him so earnest in presenting a painting is really presenting and then trying to persuade us of something. Exactly. And the church normally takes a poster going persuade somebody to think something feel something or do something exactly that's quite different and I would agree there are many who would agree and it's as it should be. I didn't say I or I was just was saying is don't expect any more. Yes I'm more distressed at the possibility that the Church finally deciding after

I'm sure about the great struggles to commission earnest rather said if they had a mural in the church that the artist would be baffled as to how about the job that many artists would be so far out of touch with any kind of approach that they would be simply stuck with working in the I don't know about that unless you were to very strongly dictate the form that the subject would take if you were to give the artist a subject and allow him to interpret it in any way he wanted to. Even totally nonobjective. I think that you know that I think you certainly could come up with a vital idea. Now the question would be whether or not you as the church people would in turn accept his idea or as an interpretation acceptable to the church. The only other the only other hindrance would be that mural painting as such in this country has fallen into

such. Disrepair that there are very very few people who have actually had the experience of doing a mural and if they have had it it probably was back during the Depression. It only came to my mind because you mention Matisse. Well of course my thesis things were it was a total environment of the whole business the architecture the stained glass the investment the vestments the the articles on the altar and the murals which are actually ceramic tiles rather than a classical fresco mural. This is sort of the whole the whole business was here as well I think that given the allowance of choosing the form when she can express an idea I think you would find that even an artist to have never been involved with depicting a so-called religious subject could handle handle it in some way that would would be

acceptable both to him and possibly to the church people. That is what we found was a young guy she married him. They did ask us to through our lawyer. We didn't ask him to create something religious. He saw the place where it was going to be and made a model to show us he was completely his interpretation. And certainly found favor with many of his very lovely things. Something that he felt was appropriate for the space. I love what I do in other words in other words the artist will probably tend to deal with it as afraid of primarily as a as a formal problem rather than a religious concept. Assuming that they're there and the art would be viewed as a form of truth rather than actually a form of propaganda. I think this is very important Goodman uses Woodward That's who they say and I think another plus some so much of everything that you signed has been sheer unabashed probably again.

Another thing we have been doing at the church is writing letters trying to have a council on the arts established and I noticed in the paper this week that Peter Ustinov The actor spoke and I noticed a quote from him that it seems to me he is saying the same thing. He said that art is not a teacher. It does not teach us that nevertheless we can learn from it. I think when the artist is creating something he is interested in. Expressing a truth. Not as we just the propaganda. I wouldn't use the word propaganda about the book of church which I think we'd all be critical so much as it's just plain sentimental. I don't want to get this could not also be true of an artist commissioned to work with a church that although you may be dealing only in forms these might simply be sentimental in base rather than in the real substance.

I think though when you talk about sentimental sure and shot only a certain body of well-known painting and sculpture would probably fall into this category. When when and what might be called High Church AAT started to degenerate into sentimentality but I think that you could probably approach your Rubens are Rembrandt are a. Grunewald and you certainly wouldn't find these either propaganda or are sentimental. I think the the word sentimental could only apply to to a certain church shock which occurred after a high period and I am indeed generally but it seems to me that as soon as you're dealing with certain fixed symbols you're dealing with a form of propaganda whether you like it or not and that if you put these fixed symbols on the highway and there they're

advertising a commercial product you think of it in terms of propaganda. That's called advertising. Well advertising is a form of propaganda that doesn't cover the same it takes for fixed symbols curving characters and so on but it requires a look at them differently. I'm just trying to support my position from the religious right hand and propaganda for a good period was to be true of the secular as a 17 century much of it in fact the bulk of it was not using traditionally religious materials were using classical materials and there were all kinds of of these this is an Adonis as in very seduction by Zeus and so on and these were very fixed symbols in the Manipulate by the artist in fairly traditional ways propaganda. Could be propaganda when they hear what. Well they and the. There may be a van and the insurgents are trying to bring back the Pantheon but you know it's I'm just wondering

whether you might see some time in the future from what you have then been working with. I am very close tie between the churches and the artist and that perhaps we might see some great cathedrals or great fusing of the arts as we have seen in the past in the Renaissance. Hearing me you got the period you're asking us to predict something. Well I'm just not I'm asking you to kind of have a feeling about whether and whether you feel that this potential is there. This is already going on in Europe where as you know it was enough to structure in the second world war as other churches are going to have buildings early and rebuild and the bulk of them have chosen modern architects of good repute in this very setting things have been done by churches of all denominations in Europe not the ones we already mentioned by committees for example AJ and others. And this to some extent has occurred in this country where there's been quite a

boom a lot that rebuilding is pretty trite. Not very original but some very interesting things are being done to it and wouldn't it be fairly safe to say that most of the boom in this country has been in times of architecture by other than a combination of Ike and I can take you. You know I think I would have to say here that it would be difficult to make a prediction because. The church is in such a state of flux they are not even sure that the institution as we know it have known it for years will continue as such whether indeed we want Cathedral thin Emaar whether they are going to rise church should not be like a station that we go out from work in the community rather than the and the type it has been in the past so until the

certain forms emerge within the church that we know where we're going I am sure we can tell how I will be using the arc perhaps an entirely new way which may be more exciting than ever before. I would tend to agree that architecture comes first and that's true also in industry where there seems to work in history a lot of exciting buildings and only relatively recently has discovered that these buildings are also places to hang. Works of art painting sculpture before the war and office building might be designed by a good architect. They would not have occurred to anyone to put a statue in the lobby. You never know. But now you get Office lobbies and so on which are really very pleasant because of this event. Do you remember do you consider a day an exhibition of strength or weakness that there is almost no denominational character to any of the art or artists

or architects in other words that as. Church buildings are built and as artworks are created for the churches. There seems to be no question at all at least from what little I've been able to do observe of the who the man is what church he belongs to. It seems as if there's been a complete breakdown of any fears about denominational ideas creeping into the thought that will be hanging on the walls of the church. It's true isn't it. Well it should be. Isn't that true. Thank you miss me. Yes I think it's a position of strength. Thank you. Very good. For instance our young sculptor was of the Jewish faith the latter does to us at all nor to him or you.

You selected a good sculptor writing might mention his name General church. Yes a big deal here. They have a very good job. We were right. Well I think that it should be emphasized that that is a position of strength because if it is a search that's what truth that we're after we're willing to look for it wherever it is found and if our. Place of worship is results and it becomes a better place by the works of art from anyone. That's not just a good thing. This is I think is increasingly true of the church and its spokesman anyway. It's very difficult if not impossible it seems to me to do so I would rather a statement by a bishop race relations as from a Catholic bishop or a Protestant bishop or from a Jewish rabbis where their best concern is our response to the world has made these determinations and difference is really basically irrelevant I think we know this and this is generally accepted everywhere.

Isn't it true also that this interest by the church and art may simply be in a search for a better method of articulating what it is trying to say. It seems as if of all others I think you know I mean I mean strongly a better method. I mean yeah I feeling that verbalizing has failed at verbalizing as a method through let's say the device of the sermon. It's not a very good thing to say on this program. Well. Thank you. It's a practice I think we said it myself many times that we wish we did have that TV screen at work with me here. But tonight next year we may go on stereo. Things are looking up. Isn't it true that the church has looked at its methods pretty hard and is in effect saying that the procedures we've used week after week the sermon etc of the forms of worship the whole

method by which the congregation is supposed to be reached is being reexamined and that every new device that's available is being examined in order to see whether it can be more effective in articulating their jazz sermons. Probably a good example of what you're driving at where the jazz musicians will come into the church and play I suppose in place of the sermon. I don't know how they how they actually work that but it seems that this is a non verbalise ation kind of nonverbal ization. I think I think that I think that possibly if we were to to. Tell our audience who is speaking out what they say. If I may this exhibition will occur from May 9 through May 29 at the Auburn Del Congregational Church at the corner of woodland road

and Hancock and Grove streets. And there is a program set up as follows lectures on Tuesday May 10th at 8 p.m. Professor Jan Cox of the museum's school will speak on art and confusion on Tuesday May 17th at 8 p.m.. Dr. Harvey Cox of the Harvard Divinity School will talk on art in the secular city on Tuesday May 24th at 8 p.m. Dr. Dr. Jack S. Goldstein the director of the astrophysics Institute of Brandeis University will speak on science in flux on Saturday May 14th at 2pm Riza de Lisi the director of the project at school Incorporated will talk on an experience of art for children and Sunday's May 15 and May 22nd after the morning service there will be gallery talks by Dr. Dwight Walsh assistant professor of religion and at Boston University for the lectures on the

on Tuesdays I believe there's a $1. Otherwise it's open to the public free week days and Sundays every day from 10:00 in the morning to 4:00 in the afternoon and evening 7:30 to 9:30 and if groups are interested in viewing they may call for an appointment. Will it be anyone to take them around the gallery at that time. I wonder how you would handle someone in the congregation who comes to the this exhibition and looks at it and said What kind of truth is there there. Where is the truth Mrs. forms in truth you don't you looking at me. Yeah well say yes quite well because you're going to be giving some gallery talks I'm sure you'll be confronted with it. I think in general I would ask the person how are they reacting to what is happening in front of them as if they were asking to Larson rather method. I would have given that dignified a time I think really this kind of question can only be

answered if the person really says how my responding what does it do to me. And if nothing then you have to move on. You just can't argue the thing mean something if there's no response at all on how the person insists that they're not responding then you say there's no truth here today. Well it could be that in either direction going to or talking there could be two reasons why I was looking at occasion what is being said is unclear. Or the receiver is not in tune sort of speak to what is being said and here I think we just don't make a judgement in front of a picture which I don't respond I'm inclined to say there's something wrong with the artist. If I have confidence in my own responses sometimes I have to admit perhaps there's something wrong with me and I will come back and look again. But this is again a matter of so much criticism. After that many forms of truth there. Surely one of them must speak in some light to most everybody in town. Now there's this kind of an unfortunate thing that happens with a work of

art and it is the and the better. He had he did this the more relevant it is a particular moment the fewer people there are that are going to be able to come in contact with it. You know they're there I think that there is sometimes a tacit agreement among people that they've made good work of art is going to communicate and this is not necessarily true. This isn't necessarily true if the Earth is really dealing with a fundamental truth because on the whole we want to resist from the other troops because they're not often the most attractive thing to us. Why do we resist. Because we want to keep our illusions and prejudices and comfort her. Betty Meyer whitewalls Shirley Kenney thank you very much for joining us this evening on studio talk.