WGBH Roundtable; Trouble in Iraq

WGBH roundtable presents a discussion of the trouble in Iraq. Our moderator this evening is Jeffrey Godsell editorial writer for The Christian Science Monitor. I have with me here in the studio tonight three young men from Iraq who are all studying in the Boston Cambridge area. First of all Mr. Ahmed al Shelby an undergraduate at MIT. He's studying mathematics. It's his third year here but each year he's gone back home to the Middle East. I have missed a cayuse Fattah who's a graduate student in civil engineering at MIT. This is his sixth year in the United States. But during the time he's been here he's been home to Iraq twice. The last time he was there was in the summer of 1961 and finally we have with us Mr. Yasha Shandon a senior at Boston University. He's taking business administration. And this is his fourth year in the United States. Before we get into our discussion I thought I'd say a word or two about Iraq a country which I visited several times when I was working in the Middle East. To many people of course is just another Arab country. But it's a country with one of the richest

and longest histories in the world. Those of us who are part of western civilization. So much of what we have to the civilizations that first flourished there in the valleys of the Tigris in the Euphrates that civilization those civilizations together with the early civilization in Egypt in the Nile Valley are the roots the home of what the rest of us have inherited here in the West. Egypt on the one hand centered on the Nile Valley and Iraq centered on the Tigris Euphrates valleys are in many ways the two most important Arab countries of the Middle East. Iraq is of the Arab countries the one that stretches deepest into Asia. When you look at a map it's the one over on the right hand side. And I think of all the Arab countries it has perhaps the greatest potential for successful development in the future. There's no great population problem in Iraq has a population of about seven million it

has plenty of water in the Tigris and Euphrates. It has plenty of land and it's one of those fortunate Arab countries that also has plenty of oil. It's one of the four big oil producers in the Middle East. The others of course are Kuwait Saudi Arabia and Iran. So oil does give Iraq capital foreign capital hard currency which it can use for development. Much has already been done there. I was first there in 1054 and I was last there in one thousand fifty eight. And whatever criticism one might make of the political system of the time or what was going on politically there is no doubt that in that short period the country did go through great periods of change. There were signs of building and development on all sides. So Iraq is an important country. If one considers the Middle East as a whole and it's one of the most important countries if one is considering the Arab lands of the Middle East inevitably it

plays a key role in any movement for Arab unity. It's going to be one of the principal bricks or one of the principal stones in the edifice of Arab unity that most Arabs want to build and are determined shall be built. There are there are three countries around which that edifice seems to be being constructed. Egypt Syria and Iraq. And in discussing contemporary Middle East politics contemporary Middle East development they are perhaps the three most important countries. You'll probably recall that Iraq was ruled by a monarchy until nine hundred fifty eight The Hashemite monarchy and the name of the politician that most of us associate with that period of monarchical rule was Nouri aside. The monarchy and Nori aside were overthrown in July of 958 and a Republican government under Abdul Karim Kassim came to power. He was in power until the spring of this year

until February of this year when there was another revolution and a group of politicians most of whom were members of the Baath Party about which we should probably be hearing more tonight took over control in Baghdad and then again within the last few days we've had another upheaval and the Baath Party has split. It may well have been ousted from the seat of power in Iraq. And our best intelligence at the present time is that the president of Iraq President if has with the support of the military taken control of the reins of government in Iraq that outline is Iraq and what has happened there during the past two or three years. I'd like to ask Now each of our guests in turn and take them in alphabetical order. How he would reply If somebody here in the United States said to him why has there been this upheaval in Iraq during the past five or six years.

I put that question first to Mr. shot of. The people in Iraq in the last five or six years and gotten said it was a cause I think of mainly the rising level of education of of the young people in Iraq and secondly of the economic prosperity. And thirdly the increased economic communication media in the Middle East and the influence of many foreign radio station front and center that I've also I would like to mention especially the voice of the Arab directive from Cairo and also the communist radio stations in addition to the secret not secret the papers that were published in Iraq in the exposition of the facts and of the Arab world. The first one. Right education level in Iraq rising education level in Iraq money during the monarchy many students had the opportunity to

do a university education and I should say several were sent abroad on scholarships by the government. They encountered the world they saw they came into contact with people who from very highly developed sense in the material sense such as the United States and England and went to France. And also they get into contact which is I think one important thing with ideas ideas of communism ideas of socialism ideas of nationality. They came back and they found themselves in evitable in an underdeveloped country frustrated in the sense that they had the education and ability as they thought but they did not have the opportunity the opportunity they they thought they would. People the privileged people. Well you know just to take up any of the shell of his points do

you have anything to add to them or do you have any differing views. Well I would rather see the situation in Iraq as more of a symptom of the of the ever present struggle in the Arab world not only in Iraq but in the rest of the whole Arab world for the unity of the of the Arab lands the freedom of the people and the socialism that the Arabs desire. When you say the freedom of the Arab people what do you mean by that. By freedom I mean that the Arab individual is free to contribute to the building of his nation. By that and by that I mean the the removal of the control that the Arab individual today is under this control it is mainly economic that of the. The feudal and the capitalist classes in the

Arab world which ruled most of the Arab lands today except a few countries. The individual has struggled in the past to free himself from this grip of poverty of disease and I think now once and for this economic freedom that he is struggling to get is the means by which he would arrive at the social freedom his ability to build his ability to contribute and his ability to secure the building of his country. Do you feel that the first breakthrough or the first crack in this control came in Iraq with the revolution of 958 the revolution of 1958 was in fact the first crack because it was the first time that the people as such directly perhaps or indirectly through some people who were more or less representative of their ideas were coming to the seats of government in the Middle East. This was the first break.

Yes Mr. Shannon do you have anything to add or do you have any differing views to offer from those of your countrymen like something to Mr. Chalabi is. Has he contributed to one of the means of achieving such a revolution. He mentioned education and here Mr. Foote mentioned the word unity. I mean the Arab unity and to this one is it's really the discontent of the people who weren't really approving of the president or the present government at the time of. I mean before the revolution and at the same time they were looking to the Egyptian revolution as a main constructive way of achieving progress and economic stability. So the Iraqi people were really I mean although they had

money to be many things to be contented with they had much of economic stability at the time and they had a lot of prosperity I should say because they were employed by by many nationalistic companies in Iraq as well as foreign companies. And many of the people who were employed and who were working and were very happy but the content on the side of the people came on the bases that they were really not very happy with the present situation. And so besides the holiday. Status of the people and their discontent. They were willing to have something new with with their with the government and I think this points to the revolution in 1958. Mr. Shelby spoke about the influence of radio stations outside. And Mr. Fattah and Mr.

Shandon spoke both about the revolutions have taken place in Egypt now outside radio stations with revolutionary messages don't have much effect upon a society unless there is a situation within that society where the seed can be so. And Radio Moscow broadcast to the United States but I don't think that Radio Moscow broadcasts have much much effect upon the thinking of people in the United States. There must have been something in Iraq which made the ground fertile for revolutionary ideas which caused a ferment. If you were asked to enumerate the things that seem to be wrong to those who were stirred by these broadcasts what would you say they were. I already said that I thought of that. The fact that the people came back. Thought that they had not had the ability but they did not have the opportunity. This is not something special of Iraq it's a general phenomena of underdeveloped countries and then the fact that this discontent had had an affair the projected appeal towards they associated

themselves that their personal frustrations and personal ideas and desires and hopes not being fulfilled with the national scene the national politics they became discontented they thought that by had by removing the monarchy by removing the regime they could achieve the proper aims the proper aims of a good example. But each inducted the proper AMS to his own and they joined the various conspiratorial or ideological parties. And the result of this was this present chaos the parties the loyalties that discontent to do you have had. Each was a product of the immediate environment of the person. Some became prominent some became nationalist and some began Bathurst who really nationalists was nice but that spoke about this about the desire to do for out of unity and freedom social as well but I think significantly cooperated the

communists prior to 54 58 all along the way and they cooperated with them in elections in 54 They cooperated with them in circulating messages they did they don't have cooperation of them before 58 and then after after 58 It was killing the other the communists murdered many of these nationalists and Baathists and the Baathists and they're done when they came to power a lot of money coming in. We're probably going to hear quite a bit more about the bath this before our conversation is over I think I might say a word or two about some you can put me right if what I say is wrong. They are a party which sees themselves as Arab not so much as Syrian or Iraqi or Jordanian a party founded by a Syrian thinker called Michel as FLAC. A party which has socialist aims it's a party which is Republican socialist and it believes strongly in Arab unity in many ways in very general terms its aims are those of President Nasser of the United Arab Republic. They

founded this party in the early 1940s 10 years before anybody ever heard of President Nasser of the United Arab Republic. They were active to begin with mostly in Syria but their activities spread to other countries to Jordan to Lebanon to Iraq. You mention nationalists to Mr. factor when you say nationalists when an Iraqi says nationalist. What kind of person does he mean. Well I believe the word in English is ambiguous if you translate it into Arabic the word Nationalist can be translated to mean patriotic and can also be translated to mean. Nationalist in the sense of nationality the word by a big word in Arabic is what I need or owe me. And in general when you speak of a person who is a nationalist You have to qualify whether he's an Arab nationalist in which case this is related to the

movement for Arab unity. And when you when you think of an Arab nationalist you think of a person who is interested in Arab unity. I personally would like to see the Arab world united in one state. A person who is a Republican and who looks to some kind of some form of socialism and the Arab world in using the word Nationalist would you say that a strong sense of Iraqi nationalism as opposed to an Arab nationalism had developed at all in Iraq. Well I would I would you I'm sure that Mr. Jordan this was. Before the revolution and Mandy just it was it was an entity within itself and the mean. The meaning of nationalist imply to the country to the border of the country which was an explanation. Like if we say if we point to

a man from Iraq we say that he's a nationalist Of course we mean that he's a nationalist from Iraq and if we point to a Syrian Of course he's a nationalist nationalist from Syria but the attitude is being changed toward nationalist as being an Arab nationalist for a bigger Arab state that will content all the states together. Your suspicion of me like to take issue with the stock price but that said earlier he described the Nationalists. The Arab nationalist in the national nationality sense that he defined as a person with who was a Republican and who had a certain way wanted to achieve certain form of socialism. And this this idea of nationalism was brought to the Arab world by the Bathurst and by President Nasser President Nasser After 56.

But the sense of out of nationality the idea of the ideology of nationality as such without the implication of Republicanism and socialism was present in the Arab world. I mean the Arab revolt of 1916 was Arab nationalism in its context. It was neither Republican nor was it socialist not nice but actually it was purely a nationalist movement. And also I would like to add the fact that he tried to explain that. Revolution in Iraq as a result of the general trend of the nationality of the national movement in the Arab world by saying that it was an end of the national movement in the part of it. Then I would like to remind of the fact that many in Iraq turn to the communism for the radical party they want to do. They hope to have achieved that aim defroster they are frustrated and or so they thought. Many of the people who are nationalists became nationalist and in a very in a

sense that they were nationalists from Iraq from a very limited background namely the Sunni sect of the west of Baghdad and western Iraq there are plenty of Shias there but the other sect with several prominent nationalists but the main bulk of the National nationalist was concentrated in western Iraq and the reason for that the other sect this year she went to the Communists. I'm going to give the microphone a moment to mystify who I think wants to comment on what you've just said. But you've mentioned the two main sects of Islam with in Iraq and I hope you'll put me straight if what I say is wrong in Iraq the Islamic faith is divided into two six Sunni Muslims and the Shia Muslims. Among the Arab population of Iraq which numbered about six million there just over a million Kurds in Iraq. There are probably more Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims. What you said

is that you felt that the Sunni Muslims perhaps more intransigent or more radical in their desire for greater Arab you know than the Shia. Well I say that this year as I described the cause of this content in Iraq as being one of the causes of being the dissatisfaction of the people of the of the young people of Iraq. And I'd said each down to that article because there's yeah significantly most of them turn to the communist cause and the center down to the nationalist socialist cause you see. Yes that's what I said I don't want to get too sidetracked for the moment on this question of the division of opinion between Sunni and Shia. I think Mr. Fattah wanted to have something to what you had said about Arab nationalism. I was mainly interested in the point that Mr. Chalabi mentioned about the fact that the definition of a nationalist doesn't have to include the word socialist or

moderately socialist or that it has to be Republican. When I defined the word Nationalist the word told me in Arabic. I tried to give it the definition that most people in the Arab world give it today. People in the Arab world when they hear the word Nationalist they do not think of a person who believes in monarchy or supports the monarchy. They don't think of a person who is a feudal lord. They think of a person who is fairly much of an educated person and he aspires to some kind of Republicanism and some kind of socialism. The people the monarchy in their eyes is associated with imperialism. People think of King Hosain and King. So I would be perhaps one of the let's say the the two left in the in the east of the Arab world as the stooges of imperialism and you know they don't think of them as ever representing any Arab nationalism in the Middle East.

When you say imperialism you mean that they are subject to either political or economic control of the West. Yes that's what I mean it seems to me that there really isn't a big gulf between you and Mr. Shelley Mr. Shelby spoke about the what he wanted to say was that Arab nationalism is not a new concept that it goes back in time with what you have said. I think that you have you have refined what he said into meaning that Arab nationalism has gone through this development and that the majority of sentiment within the Arab nationalist movement today is perhaps Republican and socialist. Would you would you agree with the fact that he said that the Arab nationalists the people I can't and this is the all dispute again who is the people the republicanism of the movement was definitely associated with President Nasser this is true and the Bathurst also insisted on their problem. The movement being Republican but then the earlier generation and many of the people who

are participating in government now and with the with the Nationalists would not so we're not we're not Republican I thought many of the ardent nationalist of the earlier stages we must give them whatever we do must give them the credit of establishing for the first time in centuries independent Arab states were not Republican and they are not and neither were they socialist they were ardent out of nationalist as such but they were neither Republican nor socialist. I would like to comment on what Mr. Being a nationalist at the top of not wanting some kind of a monarchy or kingdom but this might be so in many cases. But on the other side I think. What happened in Morocco when King Mohammed the fifth was there. There were most of the people in Morocco were nationalistic and at the same time they like their own king. So not in all the cases that this is so. And in other cases I think that the people

they love the king and the king is really for the people and from the people and he wants the welfare of the people. Because I think it depends to a certain extent upon what role the King plays or what symbol he becomes in the case of King Mohammed the fifth. His popularity was due was it not to the fact that he opposed the French the French deposed him and his restoration to the throne became as it were symbolic of the Moroccan fight against the French. Bit of a time to say yes and I also want to say that. Again coming back to this issue of defining the word Nationalist perhaps we shouldn't spend so much time on it but this is the modern definition. And Mr. Shandon has brought up a point which is perhaps worthwhile here the fact that one of the climbers who was the king of Morocco was loved by his people and yet Muhammad represented a generation of people that has more or less disappeared or is in the process of disappearing in the Arab world. And today the

people who are nationalist the people who form the rank and file of nationalist parties nationalist parties are people who are Republican and there are very few people who believe in monarchy left and let's come back to 1958 and the overthrow of the monarchy in Iraq. That revolution was hailed through a large section of the Arab world as a step forward as bringing the dawn of perhaps speedier reforms that have been carried out his or to Iraq and is being a step which would bring closer Arab unity that we identify with that who are just Karim Kassim who was prime minister of Iraq until February of this year. For some reason for some reason Iraq did not move forward along the pass which had been envisaged in 1958 when that revolution took place. Mr. Sherman do you have any reasons to offer as to why that may

not have happened. Well. First of all we know that I was in the Revolution game of 1958. The people in the streets were very joyful and this was on 14th of July of 1958. The military regime took over in Iraq. Everybody was happy. They thought that this was the day that they were waiting for. But first in the first place they went to the Revolutionary Council was formed I mean by the revolutionary by and by the revolutionary regime was formed. They they tried to put some kind of checks on on different parts of the government to put each one within its status of governing the different parts or the different bodies of the government. These different measures were opposed by some Army

men and one of them is the present president of Iraq. I missed that I was out of here because even to the to any checks to be put on the members of the regime. And this but complete power in the hands of Premier Abdul Karim Kasim who assigned Mr. Arief to be his premier and from this point on the whole power of US was concentrated into one person and little by little people. Lots lost its freedom and they were suppressed one way or another whether it was by press or whether it was by taking them into custody and so and so. The content this content of the people started then and I don't know whether Cassim was not aware of what people wanted but that people were aware of what his intentions were because he was

trying to split all the parties in Iraq within itself. He was trying to split the Iraqi people. He was trying to split the Iraqi society. He was trying to split their Iraqi families between itself so you can regain the chair and sit and have the power. You mean you mean that his main effort was concentrated on keeping power in his own hands and he became quite oblivious to the needs and demands and sentiments of the Iraqi people. That's true to my knowledge I think he was looking he was after the chair and he was surrounded by a group of people who really didn't give him enough knowledge about what really people want. And this was. Here of course the lack of communication between him and the people. This is very well all very well to say that he sat he wanted to rule he wanted power everybody wants power but then why was he able to have this division and have this power and this is significant if you have a united country. This person will be immediately recognized and

would be thrown out. I I think when you look for for the failure of the evolution of the state and the subsequent developments of it you should look deeper into Iraqi society you should look much deeper into Iraqi society in fact if you look at Iraq itself well Iraq the present borders of Iraq no state existed within these present borders and confines only as an Arab state before they existed. The ancient I should say. Post Islamic states post Islamic states exist in Iraq where the much broader sense of much broader area of control they control lands up to North Africa and East to the Pakistan and northern Iran. But the present state of Iraq was carved out of the British of the Turkish Empire by the British government by the Allies after after the war. Iraq was supposed to be

put under British law and British Mandate. But then there was a revolution in Iraq and the middle Euphrates 1920 it cost Britain 14 million pounds I think and in excess of 3500 British soldiers was put down and it was decided that Iraq should have a national rule. Well Iraq being as it is. Could not really have a national road with with people from from a city from Basra from Warsaw from north or from the south. Iraq was divided by many divisions many suspicions existed many routes of violence existed in Iraq Iraq was divided into the Arabs in Iraq were divided into Sunni and Shia and over the history of Islam many many suspicions and hostilities and blood existed between the two factions of Islam Sunni and Shia in the south of Iraq was completely mostly and some of Baghdad and the Sunnis were in the northwest and some of the northeast. But then there was a

racial difference. Iraq was not all Arabs. Iraq was no by no means had racial hatred in your society Iraq was a race it was a very much hatred you know society and the racial sense they constituted one in one more than one million and the Arabs the rest you see. Now I'm getting a possum again. I should also mention that the rest of the Arab world upper is predominantly Sunni. I should mention that when I was getting up close and came to power he found he played on the suspicion of the series from the 70s that I mean action by them and their lack of trust for them. Do we know that he's into a path which suited his own means. He used it here is to defy the nationalism which was already implicitly identified with this in the arabs. Then the Sunni Arabs wanted the Arab unity. They were in the minority in Iraq where they were a majority in the Arab world so they were they it was obviously obvious they should become

nationalists since national study was going on and then the Kurds presented as particularly resented an Arab Union what they would be a minority in 40 million one million 40 million would have much less say than one million seven million U.S.. So he was able to play on the courts and didn't do so you know other words that Iraq does not have deep roots as a national entity. And there were weaknesses in the national structure of Iraq as it was carved out of Ottoman Empire which those who might want to exploit it later were in fact able to oh yes this is this is this is a very differently that Iraq was was not very very homogeneous. There were what you see and it was a job by itself for first of the first of Iraq to stablish a state you know he wrote 1925 saying that he could you know Iraqis he saw Sunni Shia Arabs Kurds military civilians but he saw no Iraq entity it was was very much a problem to create a sense of Iraq

entity and they did it and after 40 years. Roads were destroyed. I see Mr. Felt dies waiting to say something but yeah I would just like to remind our listeners before I give the microphone to him that you are listening to a discussion on trouble in Iraq with me in the studio I have three young Iraqis Mr. Ahmed al Shelby undergraduate at MIT who's studying mathematics. Mr. Doctor graduates graduate student in civil engineering at MIT and shamed in who's a senior at be you missed a factor you wish to say something. Yes in reference to the reasons for the failure of the revolution of 1958 in Iraq I believe the most fundamental reason for the failure of this revolution is the fact that it could not come. It could not coming to terms with the nationalist movement which is sweeping and which was weaving at that time the whole of the Arab world. When we asked him when he came to power in Iraq was jealous of the power and of the

prestige that President Nasser had in Egypt. And he I believe like to rule Iraq himself. He was not ready to play a second role to a president and he believed that this was going to happen if he let Iraq join. So he had to resort to other means to stop the tide. I have nationalism which was sweeping Iraq at the outbreak of the revolution of 1958. He was the communists and he used the other elements that he could to stop the tide of Arab nationalism and he used the Sunni-Shia conflict which I believe is now coming which I believe now is also disappearing in Iraq in 1925. I do believe that Iraq was more or less split along the lines of religious and racial basis but I think that now it's time goes on as people are becoming more and more educated in Iraq. They tend to think of themselves more as Arabs rather than

as Iraqis and they tend to think of themselves more as well as Arabs as opposed also to the Sunni-Shia problem. Mr. Shand you come from the northern part of Iraq which is mainly inhabited by Kurds. What do you have to say about this question of unity within Iraq. Well I wanted first to comment on Mr. Case's point on the downfall of the. Regime in Iraq in nine hundred fifty eight which I would like to add to one main factor to this downfall. It was a problem of the Kurds in the north and part of Iraq's the Kurds. As I said said that they are a minority within the Iraqi public but to my knowledge I think they are not a minority because they represent about one fifth of the Iraqi population. And if the Iraqi fifth of the population I don't think it's

a minority I think it's well put in the term of equal to equal basis. So the operations stick and by bikers seem to suppress the Kurds in the north witcha. It took a long time 17 months months but this did not come through to his dreams and the suppression of the curse did not come at all. And this time the generals of the Iraqi army were discontented with the whole situation thinking that they can this situation can go further sending the Iraqi soldiers to kill their fellow brothers and the northern part of Iraq. So I think that a lengthy lengthy period is taken by the Iraqi government to try to suppress the Kurds in the north was one of the main factors in the downfall of Premier Kassim in one thousand fifty eight thousand nine hundred sixty nine hundred sixty three.

Will cost him failed his regime was overthrown and he was executed. We have had a new government in Iraq since February of this year. A government which was dominated by the Bath party that government has run into trouble. We've had the events of the past week or 10 days. Mr. Shelby would you like to give your hypothesis as to why this government dominated by the bus party also seems to have failed or run into trouble. Well first of all I this point is irrelevant to what I'm going to say at the moment. I'd like to remind us that Fatah has said that they hear a silly dispute has ended and by saying at the moment it's not ended but has wavered down and it's disappearing This is disappearing now by demanding that the president cancel of the Revolution in Iraq is composed of all of Sunni members of the Sunni people from Iraq the present council of the revolution and the fact

that also I should like to mention the Communists were mostly Shiite and and the communist influenced areas was more and nationalist influence areas were mostly Sunnis. Now they've come to the battle. One of the fascists came to power and February of 63. They represented the aspirations of almost all of Iraq. Everybody was unhappy without getting of class and passing was using the means of the country to keep himself into power through. This is very true. He was fighting a war in the cord with the Kurds in the north. They wanted to. Everybody was tired of the war the economy situation was ridiculous it was nearly collapsing except for the oil the oil sustain the whole thing. So everybody was with about this. But when they came to power they had to rely on somebody they found later rejected or they rejected and they give excuses for their rejection of everybody else and that they were plotting against them. They rejected

all other sectors of the population to depend on them they took their support from the party members and from the party organization and they were except for of several I should say several a few compared to the majority of the Baathists from Sunni areas you know. They ruled the country with this pretension that they wanted the Baath Party toward Iraq and to spread from Iraq into other countries and they themselves being nationalists being extreme out of nationalists. They could not tolerate the Kurds demands for more moderates they claim that the Kurds demanded independence total independence while the Kurds reject that. So consequently they started the war again and the same situation came up again. The religious difference is the one with the courts and the economic situation in Iraq the bad economic strife you know other words you are saying that the Baath Party to some extent fell into the same mistake that consummate form into that

in their determination to hold on to power alienated almost everybody else in Iraq. Yes this is this they did then and everybody else in octal. But you see that they wanted all the power they had a plan that they knew what they were doing but they were doing that's what the difference was awesome possum didn't know what he was doing next. They just wanted power. Yeah I would like to say one thing here and that is that if the Ba'ath Party was able to achieve unity with President Gamal Abdel Nasser as you are then this this this revolution wouldn't have taken place. I think this is a very significant fact. Now as far as the reasons for the failure of the by fighting in Iraq or let's say for the for the overthrow of the government in Iraq. Did the recent overthrow. I believe can best be explained by reasons which have to do with the movement of Arab nationalism itself. It cannot be explained by reasons of communal differences because the

recent overthrow of the government in Iraq has nothing to do with communalism. In other words this is difference between Shias and Sunnis and so forth. It was not at least the direct or the the apparent or even the substance of the of the overthrow that has shaken the government recently. MR I with is is no exponent of communalism he is no she ate himself. The government in Iraq today is probably just as much as the former one and maybe even more so this is this fact I think has nothing or very little to do with the Revolution in Iraq. Now the communal business is something that can perhaps explain the conspiracy that was discovered against the Iraqi state and that was instigated by outside interference because it was uncovered and that had connections with King Hussein of Jordan and the monarchists who supported him. This perhaps is an expression of communalism in Iraq but not the overthrow of the government today.

MR I have missed I was moved to overthrow the government of the of the Baath Party is perhaps in relation to the split within the Baath party that took place last week and there are all of that Mr I have played in supporting the moderate and then the army also in supporting the moderate faction of the Baath Party and the fact that Mr I was was also dissatisfied with certain aspects of the Baath regime. The National Union and the. I want to say something. No I hid the fact that he was dissatisfied with the way the National Union and the Iraqi public that Iraq was not able to achieve unity with the I was not able to come to terms with Nasser and the fact that Mr I was is and was a real person. And as far as this bridge between Nasser and the Baath Party in general he was unhappy about the fact that the extremists in the Baath Party were getting the upper hand. MR I decide I had Sadie who was the Deputy Premier and he was exiled to Spain I was

going to introduce some radical socialist reforms was going to push through this union of Syria and Egypt and were going to push through the socialization of the economy along. Union basis their union base is tight and Starforce not willing to see all this take place in Iraq. He wanted to see Iraq join Egypt and Syria and the old scheme of the federal You had a republic there a couple of loose ends that I try to bring them together. I see Mr Shelley wants to take up some of the points that you made. I think he may return to this question of the difference between Sunni and Shia. I can deal with that as briefly as possible when he replies to you but also take up the question of failure to unite with Syria and the United Arab Republic after your remarks about Sunni and Shia. If you could briefly say Mr. Chalabi why you think that the plan earlier this year for union between Iraq Syria and United Arab Republic failed.

The failure of the Iraqi government of the Baath Party in the ruling that I did not explain as being the result of I'm sorry that the overthrow of the Iraqi government of the Baath Party in Iraq by a president. I did not explain that as being a result of sectarian differences between the on this one but the general failure of the Iraqi government. Unified Iraq and to start some constructive schemes beside maintaining itself in power which they didn't succeed to apparently was a result of this difference and this probably will be the reason why the president out of will fail to and Iraq in the future. As to the problem why the Baath Party could not succeed in tonight with President Nasr. This goes back not really the result of the Iraqi development it's a result of the Baath Party's experience with President Nasser and Syria they joined him in the union of 1958 and then they most people say that they wanted to have more power in Syria than anybody else they want to

do have the upper hand over everybody else in Syria during the early period of the Union. This did not did not so the Syrians themselves and said don't read about this in Syria don't number more than 5000. And this didn't sit with the president. President Nasr himself so. Now I sort of had hard on them. Remove them from important positions and he took them away from Mr. Bosio fact he nearly forced him to resign. He drove up to Cairo the Ba'ath Party then distrusted I've been asked that and they plotted and they Mr. Saal I had been taught it was one of the stars of one of the star people who started the movement and the night early 1940s signed the secession. He approved of the secession by signing the liberation of the secession in 1961 and President Nasser during the unity talks held this against him very much. So there was a lack of trust between Nasser and the Bathurst from before even they started talking about you know before they start talking about union this year I mean resulting from the failure of the earlier and

yes between the experience of Nasser with the Baathists to shame him. Do you have any additional thoughts on this question as to why the plan for union which was drawn up jointly by the governments of Iraq Syria and united their Republican earlier this year after the revolutions in Iraq and Syria why that plan has remained a dead letter. Well because of the different point of views on the underside of present day one of the nicer and the Renaissance Party of which is in ruling in Syria and Iraq there's a Renaissance Party is just about yeah it's about partying. The problem here is that the president there is a strong advocate of one party at all. This to the Bath Party of course is is not acceptable as them then themselves. They had an experience with the previous unity between them and Syria that

the Baath Party was dissolved within Syria when the unification took place between Egypt and Syria. So the many struggle here is whether they can have more than one party and the Arab world or not. And this is a point of discussion really. I think the failure to unite this year when things seem so rosy again you would all agree it seems to me that the distrust between President Nasser and the Bath Party and the Basque party which we can't be completely sure is just what is going to be. Situation in Iraq when all the dust settles after the tumultuous events of the past week or 10 days. But it does seem as if the Baath Party in Iraq has been dealt a heavy blow. Whether it whether it survives direct or indirect directly only time will tell. There may be repercussions in Syria now. Do you think that this upheaval in

Iraq during the past week or 10 days brings any nearer the prospect of unity between the three countries. Or do you think it or it has rendered it more remote. I believe it will take the first tentative that you mentioned and that is that the definitely that this this revolution or this revolt this overthrow the government in Iraq can only bring things nearer to unity with the UAR rather than push them away because. If you look at the people who have conducted their leading role in this revolution you will find that especially Mr. Iott himself Mr. Abbott said I'm out of who is the perhaps the only person who has worked closely with President Nasser of the O.R. and with the Baath Party in Iraq. He has worked with them but he has

remained even while he was working with them he has remained more or less. And I did divide as a complete supporter of either one. And he has been always an advocate of bringing the Baath Party and Nasr closer together. Now if the Baath Party in Iraq has taken a position not to unite with not so under the present circumstances. And if a person who was neutral between the Baath Party and Nasser has come to power he can only try to bring things closer to unity. Just a shame at this point. We know that unity is as remote as the German and Italian unification. But this is this is really very fundamental because nobody believed at the time that this unification would take place whether it when it was in Germany and then when it was in Italy. But this took place regardless of the obstacles that they fit faced and that the process of

the unification of the German and Italian took 56 years. So if we take the Arab unification say from World War 2 it still haven't achieved a quarter of a century. And they tell you no and the German unification took more than 50 years. I think the unification of the Arab states will take much less than 50 years but. The main point is time when the problems between the Baath Party and you. Know not coming into being solved I think this unification will come soon. Yes the union issue I don't think it's any nearer but for reasons different from Mr. Simlins the thing is the

Iraq is now under President up to Saddam's out of some out of the direct rule. But then we must not forget that Syria is still under the Baathists to U.S. and they are just as they were before. They have and you know that I've not said and there was blood between the two factions as the blood was shed in Damascus and you're like 18 of this year over 700 people were killed from outside Camp and 21 were executed after. Nothing sticks up after a failure of a military coup for the first time in Syrian history. You see this. These factors contribute to the fact that President Nasser and the bottle cannot buy with the president but this leadership in Syria cannot agree. Yeah but why would you not say though that what has happened to the Baath Party in Iraq has weakened the bass player in Syria. Definitely what has happened to the Baath Party in Iraq is working the Baath Party in Syria but then this party in Syria was had the support of every every anti-Nazi right in Syria. You see now

after the Baath Party seems weak and that the presence of President Nasser seem seem imminent and Syria and then Iraq then other forces will come into play. The battle has been between really between the sides between factions of the same side. You see the battle between the Bathurst and Nasser has been a battle between the unionist and the socialist and the Republican side so to speak and city on there on the side of the factions the faction different faction of the of the side of the battle. We can each other considerably. Still the other side on our foot have to face after he deals with the batters he will inevitably have to face the question of the war and the discontent of that yeah. And I don't think you can do very much about them at the moment. Probably the most immediate serious internal problem in Iraq is this question of Kurdish dissidents and the campaign which has been going ahead against the Kurds in the north of Iraq. Mr. Shandon as

I said before you come from that part of the world from the north of Iraq. Do you think that the what has happened in Baghdad in the past week or 10 days has brought to power a man who will make yet another attempt to settle this problem of the Kurds by negotiation rather than by force of arms. Well I don't know really what to say about the political position now in Iraq because the situation is changing so rapidly that it is very hard to make any. Any kind of of view of judging the events in Iraq now whether the people in power thought of the idea of settling the Kurdish problem by reconciliation and by talk. But as it is known when the Baath Party came to power in Iraq it was headed by Bob to sell him out of the time being. I mean after two days before two days ago when the revolution Kim is still headed by Abu Salem out of so I don't know whether he's going to change his point of view

about this or not but I'm sure he's well aware of what what happened in the past when consumers in power and I think using of force against against the Kurds. It's and while yes and my suppression of the Kurdish people is I think something is not to be forgotten. And I think something which can be corrected. If taken in due process and very wise she let me say that I just said I'm out of no I don't think he's in a position which enables him to resolve that dispute with the Kurds. He was one of the people who insisted on the war with the Kurds. He doesn't. There is own personal psychology doesn't I don't think does permit him to make peace with the Kurds at the moment and then if he does make a piece of that then he has own position would be weakened in Iraq among his supporters.

But do you not think that people learn from experience. Kasim cried during 18 months to end the Kurdish dissidents by force of arms and failed the batter's government in Iraq has been trying all summer and it has failed. Do you not think that. That Arabs might see at last that the only way to maintain its position is by a policy of conciliation reassurance but the fact that so much blood has been shed and so much trouble has been going through it will not permit them to yourself. SUPPORTER I think it really doesn't depend on our youth. I think mostly it will depend on the generals who are running the whole event and I'm sure they are it can change is a point of view. If the general has a different attitude toward the Kurdish problem that I think that if conciliation is the only means of solving a problem then it would have to come from both sides. You in fact would like to see a reproach more between the more bonded moderate Bassett's elements and those who in general terms support President Nasser.

Yes I think this will be very useful for that of course in general. Mr. Bathurst elements in Iraq about but as it stands have been completely crushed by the crushing of its National Guard the main military instrument it had this National Guard has been crushed by the army completely as was shown by the recent press reports and the batter's party has illustrated that it is what whatever discipline Atlanta had disappeared suddenly when the when they came to power. Would you would you all agree that we can't be too sure as to just how things will go in the in the weeks and months ahead in Iraq that the process that was set in motion by this week's events has probably not yet come to an end that we can't jump to any hasty conclusions. But I am sure that all of us here agreed. Three Iraqis and not an Iraqi. What we do want to see is a re-establishment of brotherhood among the Iraqi people and a feeling among the Iraqi people

that they are going forward to a better future for all of them. Well I would like I would like to see an approach of bludgeoning this is possible and I think that appointment is possible and I think it is possible. Thank you thank you all of you. You've been listening to WGBH roundtable discussing trouble in Iraq. Our guest this evening where you're Dean Achmad shall be part of our Jeffrey Godsell editorial writer for The Christian Science Monitor acted as moderator. This program was produced for WGBH FM by Carolyn his birth. This is the educational radio network.