Ten O'Clock News

Iraq that evening from the auditorium of Dunbar High School in Washington D.C. again I'm going to write out the occasion is a public debate over the question of school desegregation and whether or not it's working in this country and the U.S. sadly B3 service and commissioners from the U.S. Civil Rights Commission the government banning set up in 1957 to manager civil rights progress appears and then on the other side will be three persons selected by the National Association for neighborhood schools and anti busing groups headquartered in Denver Colorado. There's an unusual encounter came about because of the commission report in August. The report said among other

things that school desegregation is wrecking for the good of education and race relations. The. Mission said it was reading to debate its conclusions. The neighborhood's Gervase says he issued a challenge to do just that. And here we. Are. Now the night of the bedsides that I didn't arguments get a fair hearing tonight. Some rather strict procedures have been adopted and it will be my job to unfasten the fact that rhetoric like this each side will make an opening statement then the commission will lay out its case for its report and its conclusions. There will be cross-examination by the associations Representatives on each of our three main things then the association will state its case against the rip it with the commissioners cross-examining the assassination speakers on their three major points that only each side will get a brief summary of their positions. Now that time allotments for each particular phase and I will be calling time if and when it should become necessary. Time overruns will be deducted from the appropriate side's closing

remarks. Now let's begin first with the opening statement from Arthur frowning chairman of the Respironics commission. Thank you very much the same Rights Commission appreciates the opportunity that is not afforded by me and others to discuss. I report on desegregation. The convention is a bipartisan commission. No more than three members of the commission can be members of the same political party. We are charged with the responsibility of taking a look at basic issues in the field. I have some rights and making findings and recommendations. We are also charged with a response about the activities of the federal departments and agencies that are involved in the enforcement. I've said to write a letter about a year ago the commission decided that the most important issue confronting us and the civil rights area at the present time is the issue of desegregation of our public schools.

We decided that if those nation did not move forward in dealing with as they should in a positive manner and in accordance with the Constitution of the United States that it would undermine the foundation on which all summer rights activities undertaken. French Rocky Lake ranch record was general manager of the Brooklyn Dodgers and soon after he would open up the doors of opportunity for Jackie Robinson to come into professional baseball. In telling the story he made a statement but not going to accept the negative until you have thoroughly explored the positive. We found that in the area of desegregation the negative was and is well known to the nation. We felt that it was important for the nation to become acquainted with positive experiences in the field of desegregation. The commission decided therefore to update previous studies such as the one in 1967 on racial

isolation in the public schools. We decided to do it by first of all holding a public hearing. The objective of these public hearings was to find out what had been and why and what had not worked and why these public hearings were held in Boston Denver Louisville and time in Boston the hearings extended over a period of five days in Denver Louisville and Tampa over a period of three days. We listened to 400 witnesses lead men subpoenaed under the authority of the Act under which we operate and who testified under oath and who were subject to examination and cross-examination. Then in addition we asked our state advisory committees working with our regional offices to conduct studies of such ways in 29 areas. Here again he objected to was to find out what had happened. Which

and what was working and what was not working. Then through our research department a random sample of subjective views a superintendent of schools of twelve hundred and ninety two school districts one attain this kind stated 8 percent of the 16000 school district usable data was obtained from nine hundred thirty three school districts. Six hundred twelve school districts that have taken substantial steps in the direction of desegregation. We have approached our responsibilities in this particular area within this frame of reference. We believe that as a nation we must continue to focus on certain self-evident truths as expressed in the Declaration of Independence. Abraham Lincoln interpreted one of those terms that well should have an equal chance that truth is embedded in the 14th Amendment the Supreme Court has concluded that segregated schools that

equal chance and must be broken up. It was planning the opening statement for the National Association for neighborhood schools will be made by Leno Gallia professor of constitutional law at the University of Texas and author of the book Disaster by the crew of the commission's report claims to show that desegregation works is necessary. I understand at the outset that what the commission means by desegregation is compulsory integration of force racial violence and what forced racial balance means in almost all areas of this country today is forced busing. The transportation of children away from their neighborhoods away from their neighborhood schools to more distant neighborhoods and schools for the purpose of increasing racial mixing. We contend that was racial balance does not work to achieve any good purpose. On the contrary it is a disastrous social policy a policy that as Daniel Moynihan said. Instead this

country apart. What does the commission mean when it says desegregation works. What good does it find that compulsory racial balance achieves. There's the commission me that bussing students for racial balance helps them to learn better. You know even the commission admits that this cannot be sure. The report states that educational research is inconclusive as to the effects of desegregation on achievement. Does the commission mean that forced busing will improve race relations lead to greater racial harmony among students or in society in general. There is much in the report that hints at this but the report offers no substantial evidence that would support such a claim. There is in the room what is in the report and its references to violence and in such references in our daily newspapers show that the opposite is true that forced busing causes racial conflict and hostility. In fact I

think the racial balance does not even succeed in achieving racial balance. But because it was busing causes many middle class people to move remove their children from public schools it often results in more and more racial separation than existed before our last busing game. Incredible as it seems when the commission says the desegregation works it means only that it does not necessarily result in serious interracial violence at all places. It is not necessary according to the Commission to show that busing is any good effect. As one of the commission staff attorneys put it the definition of success is lack of violence or lack of disruption in the school system. We submit that this is a bad thing. US bases on which to defend so costly and divisive a social experiment as well as myself and which to argue that it should be extended throughout its report the Commission

argues that the only reason forcing busing causes so much violence and disruption is that so many people oppose it. The reporter makes the president of the United States congressmen business leaders clergy mayors governors and others for failing to positively favor bussing for racial balance. It is not enough that elected representatives and other leaders urge people to comply with what it is they must also according to the commission argue that bussing is a good thing despite the fact that they believe it is a bad thing. A major conclusion of the report is that where public and private leaders publicly support desegregation the process tends to proceed smoothly. The commission finds the flaws busing has gone smoothly in Denver for example but the commission does not tell us that the Denver system lost nearly a third of its white students within five years after busing began and today has a minority of white students. Some policies like laws busing are still wrong. But they should not go smoothly. But

should be vigorously oppose I was upset. I thought the commissioners were begun the presentation of their case for the report beginning with the record on acceptance of school desegregation Rabbi Mary socman of Indianapolis will state the case down in the dark corners of history. There come moments of luminous insight and forward progression. The Constitution of the United States was such a luminous moment when it after an equal chance equal opportunity and the 14th Amendment implications relative to that. That man has had such a pervasive compelling impact upon the citizenry of the United States that are generally accepted today even by the opponents of our position that segregation is valuable and intrinsic to the promise of human dignity which this nation stands for. I know most obvious to say

that in general the people of the United States support the Constitution of the United States and supplant its vision in their support of the desegregation effort. Secondly I have six hundred and 12 districts surveyed by our survey of school superintendents generally in every one of those districts. Not of the six trapped six hundred twelve. They were more surveyed but I have the total. Six hundred and twelve. Six hundred and twelve school districts. Desegregation occurred without violence. This is not to say that the translation of the rhetoric of the Constitution and its promise into the realities of human existence that there aren't going to be problems and we're not affirming that there are not going to be problems in the future. It is a great idea to implement any great

idea is a great challenge to our people. We submit that America is prepared to respond to that challenge that it will not be easy but that desegregation in your time is up. So much as John of the Prince George's County School bird will stop the cross-examination now. Rabbi Saltzman. I like all Americans like you just stated I uphold the Constitution. However what we're discussing today are two things. One court orders that have come down and the only way to implement the growers is through forced busing and many instances. And secondly I really saw no references in your two minutes to the report itself. I thought that today's debate was to defend the report and not talk about the constitution because I think the defense of the Constitution as held by every American citizen. I'm the superintendent that you mentioned. Do you think that you really

care one question at a time. This is my question I was meant to be I guess repeating the question but on the on the superintendence do you think you really get an unbiased opinion from the superintendent. After all you were talking to a gentleman or lady whose responsibility was to implement a desegregation plan as an administrator they certainly were not going to admit that their administration failed even if they were just talking about mechanic. I'm not sure what the question at this point. Let me say that my remarks from the report I am sworn by my office as a commissioner to uphold the Constitution of the United States. And that's precisely what this report addresses upholding of the Constitution of the United States the report does not respond as you say to the issue of forced busing per se because that's not the issue. Desegregation is the issue. And in fact.

Finding that a school district has perpetuated systems. The court then orders a remedy that remedy often requires people reassignment not bussing. And there is no such thing as force. But when you've got you know I didn't interrupt you. People do have the right not to go on the bus. The court doesn't force busing. There is no such thing as compulsory racial balance. The Supreme Court has spoken again. We have spoken against it. After the end of the school systems and that's the point now saying at what point you could bring up one point you said courts are opposed to racial balance and one just a lot. All in one system. Prince George's County Maryland for example got a racial balance of between 10 and 50 percent. And I suppose this was upheld by the Supreme Court because it refused to hear a case so they do have the racial balance.

You know Justice Berger has said on behalf of a unanimous court the constitutional command to desegregate schools does not mean that every school in every community must always reflect the racial composition of the school system as a whole we see therefore that the use made of mathematical ratios was no more than a starting point in the process of shaping a remedy rather then an inflexible requirement. As we said grain that is the Supreme Court. Do you remember your plan or a district court's remedial to create us to be judged by its effectiveness. Awareness of the racial composition of the whole school system is likely to be a useful starting point in shaping a remedy to correct constitutional violation. Time for them a question from the business section. Well are you basing the extra public acceptance on desegregation or on the farm sponsoring and the fact that there has been a little violence.

I'm basing it on our survey and our whole report which also it seems to me is validated for example by what's happening to the election of school board members. Prince George's County and other counties and cities throughout the country are seeing that moderate members are being elected to school boards supporting desegregation within the constitutional mandate. Thank you rather than. Next the Commission's position on the positive effect school segregation has had on education. Thank you Mr. Flint. And like I indicated in my opening remarks the Supreme Court has said that segregated schools are in violation of the 14th Amendment and that therefore segregated schools must be brought in on the orders issued by the courts and upheld by the Supreme Court as their objective. If they are to be broken up there must be a reassignment of students and students are reassigned. There are times when they must be provided

with transportation not when there's hot educational issues around but it is our position that no matter what issues may be we cannot turn our back on the Constitution of the United States. There must be equal access to whatever the quality of education may be in a particular school district. However as we evaluated the situation we did take note of the fact that when this is segregated that there are improvements in the facilities in laboratory equipment and in time. We also took note of the fact that when a school when school is already segregated the students have the opportunity of becoming acquainted with other cultures. I had the opportunity of making friends with representatives of other cultures and in this way are educationally prepared to work and live in a society where there

are many cultures. Also we took note of the fact that some changes have been made from time to time when they corrected and that these changes are normally in the direction of broadening the curriculum in the light of the new demands made on the system. We likewise took note of the fact that there is increased emphasis on human relations training for students for faculty and for principals and large part time is expected. Edward Weber and professor of Urban Education Research University of Illinois at Chicago began the cross-examination for the association. And the report on page 208 States and I quote. Educational Research is inconclusive as to the effects of desegregation on achievement test scores of minority and majority students end of quote. If busing doesn't increase educational achievement why should black and white students allow their children to be bussed.

The answer is that under the Constitution the children and young people of today are entitled to an opportunity in times of the resources I have a particular investment they can not have it under a segregated system. They can only have it under a DE segregated system and there are situation where you can't get a do a segregated system without providing students was some opportunity for our transportation. John Fleming in Berkeley California which is often noted as an ideal area for. Fussing it's been carrying on the program since 1964 you characterized in your report I quote the segregation has positive effects on the quality of education in the Los Angeles Times quotes a Berkeley district application for a federal grant academic isolation gives rise to and is aggravated by physical and social logical isolation separatism in the classroom and on the playground from fear mistrust and a lack of misunderstanding as well as a lack of commonality in reading computational language proficiency and that the quote goes on to

say disparities among the races in terms of academic achievement increased progressively throughout the grades. How do you account for the discrepancy between the pump the school district's own report on this and your own report. As far as brightly is concerned the conclusion that we reached there was based on evidence and testimony brought together by those who conducted the interview. But as you were going to cater in your statements and in your question. Taking the report as a whole and taking this survey of the superintendent said that as far as 75 percent of their school districts are consigned there's been no change in the quality of education. 15 percent said there had been progress. Times. Percent said there had been deterioration. Take the 10 percent where there was that a ratio you've got to stay with a segregated system. Under the Constitution of the United States and do the things that it is necessary to do to improve the quality of education and give access to

young people and students. So you just think you're missing the point. If busing does not improve educational achievement why should we do it because of the fact that it is necessary at times to provide people transportation in order to enforce and implement the Constitution of the United States. It's simply rhetoric and does not mean anything in the lives of children and like you come on to a different question now in the report non-coding page 25 years of the responses were received from 20 percent of the community leaders end of quote standard survey research requires tracking down nearly complete samples. How can you defend any conclusion about the claimed positive effects of bussing when the sample was so inadequate. The only kind that we make is derived from the returns from the 900 school superintendents such hundred writing over that are involved in desegregation. If there were no guarantees at all as

far as the others are concerned and even as far as they're concerned as I've indicated the results 75 percent don't change in quality of education. 15 percent improvement 10 percent and I agree with you you haven't demonstrated that desegregation of forced busing is increased educational achievement that's my main point I want to go on to another question throughout the country schools are faced with financial deficits teacher strikes over salaries and curtail programs. How can busing improve education when the extra money. Asportation has to be taken away from the education budget. There is no better way to invest our money then to do the things that it is necessary to do to give the children and young people of a community and as far as the educational resources like that community are concerned. Where upward climb is up for that second thank you as it effects now on race relations.

Thank you for a man a single US attorney will give the case for the commissioners a fine product of racial isolation and Indian Nation which permeates our society and our schools which must be broken. The commission has been concerned with this and we're going to re-air it abit. And then our hearings. We invited testimony from teaches pounds of steel. And Emerson got instance where they had been desegregation those teachers parents and students told us that the quality of relations had improved and I'd like to quote from you two students one from normal a concerned parent in the oval told us at the beginning of the most disappointed that my son was to be rushed from his home school. But we decided my husband and I that if this was to be his life then we would go right along with him. And you claim to be happy and went to centrum and

began to love Central. He said that if something bad he had not found any place else. Another high school student in Minneapolis. They didn't feel that the segregation had opened to my man in going to school rip people from different backgrounds. That is probably more appropriate have made them sitting in their own white school. If you go with kids from a different race together. But I do any influence from the parent they're going to get along it is wrong when a condom comes from in the field of group relations that stereotype racial animosity as antagonisms and a tip of his from lack of understanding with persons to one of these negative values have been projected. Understanding can only come from communication. Communication can only result from those who grow proximity effect cycle must be broken it can only be broken in the segregated school.

Thank you professor got you well cross exam. Really remarkable that you interview them and they're in favor of compulsory to greatly improve race relations because investigations of the people in this very question have not found that to be the case a great many compulsory integration regularly. Don't you agree. You have misunderstood the point. We have not talked about compulsory integration we've been talking about desegregation and the preservation of a constitutional right. Well I have to say that what the commission considers desegregation I must consider compulsory integration in your opinion in my opinion is the phrase I use because the commission defined segregation in its report as I understand it does not distinguish between segregate. Caused by racial discrimination racial

separation. I understand I do applaud your thoughts but desegregation as being simply the correction of racial imbalance however causes not just myself for later i like was known she was gray that to settle a difficult and controverted social question like whether bussing compulsory integration desegregation if you will. Improves racial relations. That one must turn to some form of scientific study. There is no reference in your reply to the many studies that have been made of this very question. Why not. They have better defense of that is the extent to which the segregation has improved race relations and however. We have based our conclusions on testimony sworn testimony between right and living in the absence of any definitive study and then recognition this entire society that the quality of my right in this country

is diminished by emotional isolation and alienation. This commission believes that the cycle must be broken somewhere and we have got to start with the school which is the principal value betting institution or not because I really feel that the recent Old Testament. A hint from a several dozen students that came to perhaps not by entirely natural selection came to be heard at your hearings outweighs the many studies saying you're a very committed personally to integration with most respected scholars in Israel if you study one studies and found that most indicate that bussing for integration produces negative effects more often than positive effect. There was very little excuse me that is the primitive in this field. That's true but the best knowledge we have the investigation of our best social scientists indicates that robust integration heightens racial identity and consciousness and hence

is ideologies that promote racial integration and reduces the opportunities for actual contact between the races. You must take many years of perpetuation of the report is going to correct. Well this is a myth. A commission of let's say part of a commission that things like revolution can and does work when people are. Committed to enforcing the law. When people are committed to protecting basic constitutional right to equal protection of the laws and that every child has equal protection of the law and where children get to know each other we have got to understand each other. Can recognize the value of different cultures and races that this improves the quality of life and this improves race relation and if it would ever happen. Our country would be about a point. Did you employ the services of any recognize Scala in compiling this report on 30 seconds left.

Let's just let us answer that one question. QUESTION Did you employ the services of any recognized scholar social scientist in compiling this report. I'm not the first and compounding our report I'll report you as based as we said at the outset on the hearings which we conducted on the research department research record not scholars Ph.D.. Time is up. Thank you very much. Now it's time to the National Association for neighborhood schools presentation against the commission's report and the first thing that has to do with methodology of the report and sampling was miles were good. Associations position. A rising tide of evidence proves your recent study is grossly misleading. I say that because the evidence includes statements made by your own staff and internal documents emanating from your own office. For example a letter from Mr Roberts your Midwestern regional director to Mr Bennis superintendent of

Minneapolis School System stakes here as Commission on Civil Rights is essentially a fact finding or research agency and that the commission has undertaken this major effort to demonstrate to the nation that school desegregation can be effectively accomplished. End of quote. This is not fact. It's propaganda. I mean you started with a biased conclusion and then through a methodology you set out to prove that very conclusion. For example Mr Roberts again in his letter asked for witnesses from 14 design categories. Your witness selection criteria preclude it other than token opposition opposing viewpoints were minimized in the report. Pre interviewed witnesses in cities belie any claim of objectivity in this 2.3 million dollar report that's been financed by public monies. Mr Fleming is quoted as saying the negative and is well known.

What negatives around around other than violence in a few cities. You have literally disregarded other negative aspects. This report is built around dozens of nebulous unsubstantiated statements referring to the so called success. A forced busing. His references preclude any notion of objectivity and I want to tell the employees the commission's propaganda purpose was revealed as quote support for school segregation stemming the tide of opposition to school desegregation and attaining victories already won and school desegregation unquote. We'll have to leave it there. Thank you for the commission will be rabbis Assman sure that you read the chapter on motivation and ology report I have read you my point yes the chapter on methadone with me. There were several studies

I know about However this I'm what I was quoting that represented one particular way of doing it. That certainly wasn't telling you why were different surveys that the purpose of study that you're referring to was a purpose of study where desegregation even was a telephone interview and I think this is a ratifying the subject of checks. You know we're OK so that charge has no factual basis because each of our survey

efforts undertook to provide any of our findings was emphasized. Well as far as the letter is that nearly as one of the examples that in fact it was not a conclusive report. I have a copy out and I quote from the Courier Journal as a little avail and some level staff people have said that I think a close affinity does not prove your point. Not a fact one said possibly could be proven that desegregation in fact works. But he said this report doesn't. Right and this is report is supposed to be a documentation

not just an observation of what's going on a commentary on the issue. When your government in connection with our public hearings that we have pick witnesses that would present the kind of testimony that we would like to hear. Referring I leave to the Boston area. Failed that charge when you consider the fact that some members of the school committee under oath and examine them. Now we listen to members of the city council and we listen to rather the representatives we listen to the man of the Senate who had questions about desegregation. We can transfer money from all of those persons and way that we want against either testimony for our weight reached findings and made recommendations. Discussion is not on cross now. The discussion covers all the areas that you went into when it was that you cannot pull just the one

to one now sit it out you've got to look at all the places you went into the first public hearings that you had regarding the report and read them when you report your quote rhymes didn't believe those those are just too ambiguous and I wanted to play it took the can I didn't in a report such as this I believe. Are you aware of the fact that we followed identically the same template and are you aware of the fact that there is a complete transcript of the hearings. Obviously we couldn't pull it all out and put it into the report transfer to be examined by anyone. Well let's look at the additional evidence relating. I am aware of in one area where a lady was to appear at the time when the uninvited of the extra witnesses were to appear and the doors of the building were locked so maybe maybe the invitation was given but the invitation to anything.

Thank you very much. Practical effects of school segregation. PROFESSOR ROB US or thank you for example. Just describe how the minimizing of the light and the implication the fussing and shaven and racial attitudes. First the repair questions the first pressing does not increase like like James Conlon is one of the country's leading educational researchers recently concluded at first its causes why parents particularly in large cities to move to the suburbs and send their children to private schools. He estimates that first busing in the typical large city will eliminate most whites from the public schools in five years. Since the cuts out of busing in the Boston and they each lost 20000 white students first busing defeats its own purpose in the large cities by driving out those who can afford to flee and leaving

only poor whites and poor blacks to be forced on buses to go to deteriorating schools. Second the report quotes here's a little testimony that for spicing improves academic achievement and racial attitudes without presenting any objective statistical data on these vital points. Dr. St. John it was mentioned earlier. Spec that scholar in a 1975 book reviewed one hundred twenty studies of busing. She directly contradicts the report and shows that white achievement is significantly lower in majority black schools. Dr. St. John finds that the evidence on racial attitudes is inconclusive and that the immediate effect of Fest pricing is and I quote sometimes positive but often negative. End of quote The most impressive study to date was conducted over a ten year period in Riverside California. The school board in leading blacks and whites in the community favored the program at the start but neither achievement nor attitudes showed gains. In fact minority children develop greater

anxiety and self-doubt. In conclusion first class. Accelerates white flight and fails to improve educational achievement international attitudes and performing a cross examination of various factors that contribute to white flight. What are some of the factors that contribute to one flight. What is a very complex phenomena. There's a great deal Neighborhood Development Community Development in far reaching suburbs. Industry is moving out in San respects because of the need for large industrial plants. There are a number of very complicated factors that bear on this so let's not have desegregation. It's only one of the factors contributing to white flight. It accounts according to economists estimate which I believe for approximately 13 percent percentage right in one year. The other factors account for

approximately 2 percent so it is an overwhelming factor when first pricing goes into. I'd say that I know of the six celebrations exodus of citizens. Well I feel that Robert and former Secretary of Housing and Urban Development will be recognized as an authority on the factors at play and I think it is an established shallots just who has studied the problem and reported on it widely and recognized reputable academic journals and I don't think any difficulty at all in establishing. Can I as an expert and scholar in this dialogue which took place before the commission between him and Dr. Coleman there was disagreement on justly kind of findings the general vindicated what we said about him. Let me just read it. Many school districts lost significant number of students by enrollment changes from

68 to 72. There are no significant differences between those districts that segregate under pressure from the courts and districts in the country. The data do show that lots of white students is greater by black and relevance exceed 40 percent. So I want to remind you that in that reply you are getting your information from school superintendents and they are not objective witnesses. Negation may answer the question please go ahead. Desegregation is not is not working they're not likely to save because they'll lose their jobs. Secondly most of your material comes from deep much of the large bussing plans were started in the major cities so I have to completely discount what you said there. Now if one assumes that desegregation contributes to write flight and not provides a rationale for doing to implement the 14th Amendment to the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court I'm going to have a question about the constitution of

Professor Graham. He's an expert on that I would say that the reply totally ignores all sorts of public opinion for example rights and that's it was like Manson had less concern as a right not an relax have sent their students and their children to private schools in the city they have left the urban area polls indicate at the most. White citizens today are against forced busing and blacks. Black parents today that are opposed to busing then favorite. So I think you have to look at public opinion in accounting for this and not just like white and I'm not going to accept all of your assumptions but I want to go back to my question. That's something that desegregation contributes to white flight. Do you believe that that is a reason for denying children and young people the rights under the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. I don't believe that that's that problem isn't enough but I would deny the premise of your question because I don't think you're providing equal educational opportunity. What you're

doing is driving middle class people out of the cities and giving the poor who have to remain in the public schools. You're denying them their right to equal educational opportunity so you're defeating the very purpose is that you're trying to accomplish at a time for the second. Thank you professor. Finally from Professor me it's one basic argument is that it is a constitutional question. There's nothing we can do whether it improves. The education of anybody is irrelevant whether it causes the whites to leave the cities or make school systems more racially separate Apparently the realm of the Constitution the 14th Amendment requires the commission tells us it's a constitutional imperative it

insists all of it you know over in its report of course even a constitutional imperatives not unchangeable. The constitution can be amended but it was bussing for racial violence is not a constitutional imperative. As Robert Jay the great Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson said the Constitution is not a suicide. It does not and cannot require us to take socially destructive self-defeating action and expensive resisted. I don't want that course of action to mix the races when the result is racial separation. That's not the Constitution. That's a perversion of the Constitution. It is also a progression of the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court in the Brown case in 1954 a law prohibiting segregation prohibiting racial discrimination. The fundamental principle the court said in that case is that racial discrimination in public education is unconstitutional.

For us busing element is racial discrimination. The commission says that the Brown decision is under attack today in this country it is under attack. It is under attack by the commission. The proponents of busing. It is not of the rich by blessings I found it so a return to a constitutional requirement that no racial discrimination. And his friend in response to cross-examine him. Is it your position that the Fourteenth Amendment protection of the law is that the promotion that you were suggesting subliminal but now I'm not suggesting the 14th Amendment be amended. I mean run suggesting that segregation segregated segregated schools are unlawful as was held in the Brown decision. Unfortunately what is happening now is not the correction of segregation as understood in the Brown decision namely racial separation resulting from the use of racial discrimination by school authorities. And what this report

says from beginning to end it does not distinguish between racial separation or imbalance however and racial separation resulting from racial discrimination. The racial separation that exists in this country. The so-called de facto segregation which is itself a misnomer is the result of racially imbalance housing patterns is not the result of racial discrimination by school authorities and the FAA. Even under the theory as expounded by the Supreme Court in cases if the brown it does not have to be constitutionally remedied by bussing and you're saying that you are in disagreement with the Supreme Court well I am in fact in disagreement with some of the Supreme Court's decisions beginning in 1968 which did in fact what was in effect a come compulsory integration requirement. However the Supreme Court has always insisted it has always maintained it. Least in theory there is no integration requirement

such that the requirement is only to undo the effects of past racial discrimination and the supreme court has applied that theory in its last two decisions in this area with opinion to try cases and the Pasadena case and if that principle is applied to the civil rights commissions with the recommendations of this report would be invalid because the report does not distinguish between separation caused by school by racial discrimination and racial separation caused primarily by residential imbalance. Mr Rubb has suggested an alternative for having anything to do in school system. What I'm saying commission of frame is that these are not dual school systems that their school system mention Constitution. The law and men in the Brown decision systems created by the assignment of children according to regs to separate them. What was bussing compulsory integration means is a return

to assignments according to race it is precisely what Brown prohibits it is what the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits as correctly interpreted in Britain. Are you aware that in this and throughout is the United States. Every town has been assigned to school on the basis of the discretion to receive education and there always has been people assigned yes throughout the United States almost universally except where daughters are involved. Assignment to school is on the basis of neighborhood and objective racially neutral nonracial criterion we have the right whether neighborhoods are racially imbalanced the neighborhood schools of course a racially imbalance and list the commission's report protests and would do and would call unconstitutional and would do in the name of upholding the Constitution and it is wrong as a matter of fact as a matter of principle. Are you aware that there is no supreme good thing.

And it's not a neighborhood as in violent neighborhoods are not inviolate but there are Supreme Court decisions and I could cite you the last two decisions of the Supreme Court for example their most recent a facet of the decision I think that racially imbalanced schools resulting from racially imbalanced neighborhood patterns are not unconstitutional and a lot of federal court district court order and a lot of Appeals went to requiring racial balancing and that case was overruled by discipline court on the grounds that racial imbalance as such is not unconstitutional. I submit that the commission's report appearing to be based on constitutional law fails to recognize that basic constitutional principle. As I thank you. Now in my closing summaries each side will have two and a half minutes the order was determined by calling for the start of the program the semester. Mr. Fleming will summarize first just by me.

As a result of the decision on the part of the Supreme Court that segregated schools violate the Constitution of the United States. Here is what has been happening. Judges have found in one community after another that the schools are in fact segregated. Judges have been given the opportunity to correct the situation. Some have suddenly had to when they have been judges and then develop plans designed to improve the situation. Those plans involve student assigned and if students are going to be assigned then they in turn that's provided when the opportunity for transportation there isn't any question in our mind as to the interpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court. And we as public officials say under the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court feel that we must do everything

we can to make it possible for this nation to implement those constitutional principles not when they aren't. Issues arise in the field of education in the area of white flight and so on. But those issues travel some as I may be at times providers with no excuse no rationale for turning our back on the Constitution. Rather they constitute a challenge still is to take those educational issues and work them out in a positive constructive way in the framework of the Constitution. They constitute a challenge to us to take other issues such as rank right and work them out in a manner that is consistent with the Constitution of the United States. We are convinced of the fact that this issue which does tend to divide the country kind of worked out in such a way as to bring the country back together again only when we in our communities in the state and the nation

are determined to operate in a manner consistent with the Constitution of the United States. And if you're reading our entire report you'll read about one community after another war that's going on it's going on in France a bust and it's definitely been going on in Tampa pretty had such a big. We urge you to read the report so that you can weigh the kind of evidence that we like. Thank you Mr. Professor. Our plans for the associate is indeed the case that if you read the report you will read different things about what's going on in many many of our major cities. Then you will read if you read the daily newspapers. The report is not a serious study and hardly purports to be of the many problems of busing. The propaganda piece that reaches the conclusion that the commission had announced in advance in undertaking this multi million dollar a ploy it gives as a major conclusion the truism that bussing does morally when no one objects to it. Of course everything goes smoothly if no one

objects but some things are so clearly wrong and harmful that it is the duty of the good citizen to object. It is easy enough for community leaders that other people submit that your want to fly was buzzing while their own children leave the school system that is frequently happen. And that is not the leadership we need to save our public school systems. When I said I am going over the commission return. So this I must say ridiculous argument that the Constitution requires so socially destructive in the eyes of an act as well as bussing. The Constitution does not. The Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court in The Great Brown decision in 1954 held correctly correctly as a matter of constitutional law and as a matter of morality that racial discrimination in the assignment of children to schools is prohibited by the Constitution and for us by saying names the racial assignment of children. It means that the government must investigate the race of each

child and must tell a black child or a white child that he may not go to his neighborhood school because he is black or because he is white. When that neighborhood school already has enough blacks or enough white. Busing does not help anyone to get a better education. It requires our school systems to spend time money and energy. Transportation instead of education it does not improve race relations. It is probably the single most important cause of racial conflict in this country today. Finally it is self-defeating. The Constitution cannot require honesty by causing the withdrawal of many of the middle class from the public school systems. Its result is frequently not more wrong but less racial mixing racial integration for whatever reason one might want racial integration. But I think does not provide it.

I want to thank the source on this. And I don't particularly compliment them for adhering to the ground on the timeline the Persians are making and the Professor Benson for public television. Thank you. To obtain copies of the Civil Rights Commission Report write US Commission on Civil

Rights. Washington DC 4 2 5. That's U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. Washington D.C. Two for two five for information opposed to the report. The National Association for neighborhood schools. Box 1 9 5 2 Denver Colorado 8 0 to 1. That's the National Association for neighborhood school. Box 1 9 5 2 Denver Colorado 9. This program is produced by W. E. G A Washington and WGBH Boston which are solely responsible for its content. Funding was provided by public television stations and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. The 100 m.