Byline; Cyprus

BYLINE Cyprus tonight will present a special panel discussion of the most recent events on this strife torn island. Our moderator is Jeffrey gods all editorial writer for The Christian Science Monitor. Here's Mr. Godsell. I have with me in the studio this evening Dr. James assistant professor of economics at Harvard University who has family links with the Greek Cypriot community in Cyprus and Canon Shaheen a Turkish graduate student at MIT. Before we get into our discussion try and recap briefly what the situation is in Cyprus. You remember that until 1960 it was a British colony and there was dissension about what the future of the colony should be the Greek Cypriot community wanted union with Greece. It was that was opposed by the British and the Turks. But in 19 59 the Turkish and Greek governments got together and agreed that Cyprus should become independent which was a solution accepted by the British. And since 1980 Cyprus has been independent under a

constitution which built in special guarantees for the Turkish Cypriot community who represent about 18 percent of the population of that island in the eastern Mediterranean. Power was mostly in the hands of the Greek Cypriot majority 82 percent of the island. But the provisions of the Constitution in the eyes of the Greek Cypriots are ham strung. The Greeks majority hamstrung effective government because of various veto powers given to the Turkish minority. At the end of last year Archbishop Macarius the president of Cyprus whose leader of the Greek Cypriot community proposed certain changes of the two to the constitution of Cyprus which he thought would make government easier and more effective. And those proposals for constitutional change set off a whole series of incidents which led to fighting between the two communities in Cyprus. The British troops

which occupy bases in Cyprus at first being called in to police the island subsequently the United Nations has taken over police duties on Cyprus. But politically we see no nearer a solution of the differences that have arisen between the Greek Cypriot community the Turkish Cypriot community Greece and Turkey. The United Nations Security Council is to meet to consider a request from United Nations Secretary-General 2000 for an extension of the mandate of the United Nations force on Cyprus which is keeping the peace there and almost similar tenuously. President Johnson in Washington has invited to the United States the prime minister of Turkey and the prime minister of Greece. So far as we know they're coming separately for talks with him presumably in an attempt to try to work out some kind of acceptable solution to the Cyprus crisis under American sponsorship. Outwardly the situation on Cyprus would appear to be deadlocked. I

would like to ask Professor Dr. James first of all whether he thinks that the situation in Cyprus today is as gloomy as was suggested in the report issued by the sound United Nations secretary general earlier this week. Well. I would sing from the point of view of finding an immediate solution to the problems of Cyprus. It is indeed quite roomy because ever since the advent of the UN forces there are only two things really being accomplished. One of them was the more form establishment of the current government is the effective government of Cyprus and the elimination of any legal dickering about whether or not it is entitled to speak as the government of Cyprus and from the other point of view however very little has been accomplished by way of eliminating the friction amongst the populations of the two distinct ethnic groups of the island. What has happened is

that the divisions that existed prior there to have been formed in the months between say December and March. I have become nearly frozen. So nothing has been done effectively to reintegrate into communities in the island. But the presence of the UN forces merely contained an outboard money for a station of attention in the form of fighting. This thing's a very positive accomplishment of the UN forces in Cyprus. From the point of your finding a political solution however nothing apparently has been accomplished. The Turkish leadership in Cyprus and indeed the government of Turkey hold apparently that no solution is acceptable to them that in some way does not give their ground something separate. State perhaps or at least a federated state

in Cyprus. And on the other hand the Greek Super community and leadership seem to state very firmly that the only thing that is acceptable to them is a unitary state in which the majority effectively rules with of course the fundamental rights of minority being guaranteed to a Turkish population in Cyprus but otherwise no political privileges or no political stranglehold. And so the positions have not really changed since December of 1963 and indeed since before that Mr. Shaheen. Do you feel similarly that the positions are still as rigid as they were in Cyprus after the fighting broke out in December and then moved into this new year. I think they have an even more rigid view of the UN forces. What they have done I think they have frozen the conflict. They have frozen the conflict in its tracks.

But the outside effects of the conflict I'm referring to developments have gone on without the parallel development in Cyprus and such I think the situation is worsening. I'd like to come back to discussion of the situation in Turkey but first of all you speak about the UN force. Contributing to a freezing of the situation in Cyprus. But if the UN force hadn't gone in might there not have been far worse bloodshed and violence. This is quite possible but on the other hand I think you end by. As previously mentioned by strengthening Democrat who's gone has in certain instances the violence I think which on that other circumstances could have been prevented even under UN auspices had the UN taken a firmer position I think the Saudis would have been quite unnecessary. Before I asked Professor Dr. Ames to comment what kind of firm position do you mean that could possibly have made the situation better than it is today.

They are not politically but just from a humanitarian point of view I think there has been an unnecessary killing on both sides. I condemn both sides equally. Children all people Egypt people innocent people have been killed. And with 7000 men soldiers on the island I think this was quite an unnecessary outcome. The hope when you and went in was that this would stop. People would not die. This has not happened. Would you would you agree Professor dimes that in some measure the U.N. has perhaps unintentionally worsen the situation as well as perhaps preventing some incidence you know allies certainly would not think that it has worsened the local situation in Cyprus. What I meant by way of clarification I meant of course that the presence of the UN forces I think they had their somewhat sorry effect from their point of view of containing the manifestation of tension in the form of armed conflict. However one presumably expect that more of the UN force than merely

that one expects that in the three or four months intervening there from the beginning of March when the UN resolution was passed now that the pacification to some extent are these the elimination of open conflict would have also led to some reconsideration on both sides and some perhaps positive steps being taken toward an ultimate political solution. It is only in that sense that while I may find some. Perhaps a deficiency in the functioning of the UN and that what it has accomplished is merely to contain or to eliminate perhaps armed conflict but otherwise freeze both the middle of the reposition of the two camps and also their political positions. It is in that sense that I may find some deficiency in the performance of the UN but presumably it's not for lack of

personnel trying to do that. Ruth and her sent two civilian members of his staff or two civilian representatives to Cyprus to try to work out something on the political lever and a mediator an official mediator and a political advisor to the UN force. If they haven't succeeded Why do you think that that is. Well it's very simple in the first place. It would have been quite possible for the United for the United Nations forces to aid in the elimination of certain strongholds that are being occupied at present both by the Turkish contingent in Cyprus and the by the by Turkish irregulars especially in the northern part of Cyprus which are the Greek Cypriot government claims is harassing. The normal functioning of the publications in that area and impedes free usage of the highways is a

possible contribution the United Nations could have made and further more would have could have pursued a more active role in tearing down fortifications and positively aiding in the reintegration of the two communities by means of eliminating armed barriers that separates a quarters from the talk of corners by instituting for instance mixed patrols of U.N. soldiers police and police up I mean both Greek Cypriot interpretive group policeman. In this way there could have been some steps toward every integration of the two communities and some possibility. May begin on the issue. Mr. Cheney do you agree with the president no not exactly I think it would be a looking at the problems of officially to see that you could eliminate certain strongholds on both sides I think the issues are deeper than that. There is

insecurity involved there are certain reasons why certain communities took up strongholds but I think the U.N. could have been very constructive. Has it come to the issue with a big stick to both sides I think it's again inexcusable for it condenses of 7000 men to remain so idle and so quiet when events of violence took place. So I think in this point I disagree that we should try. I seem to remember 2000 raising the question some weeks ago. Should the U.N. in trying to stop Greeks and Turks killing one another turn round and kill Greeks or Turks itself it is a dilemma for UN force this is I think this is true but I think that in all these you perhaps could be France is the capital punishment. I'm going to use one person to prevent crimes on a larger scale and I think on these grounds or on this action of you and I could have an excuse.

I said Oh I don't think this is a proper function for the US and no one ever imagines this to be a problem function of the UN namely to impose impose a military solution on a country to which it has been invited to keep the peace. However the United Nations for instance object to certain assaults mounted by security forces in the south who are young council area which according to reports of the roadways there were initiated because the government felt that the communication between the CIA was impeded by these fortifications and the U.N. intervened very strongly and condemned the government of President Karzai as well having undertaken this action. And that's when you see they have not allowed the government to restore free communication amongst the highways on the highways.

I think times again it all comes back to the question which is the legal gun or what is the government in the sober situation who represents to go and has the right to take legal action. And the UN admitted there's a very difficult position in trying to find a middle ground. After all there is a minority there who has some legal rights and there is a Greek majority were some legal right and the legal rights of these communities have to be preserved. I agree that UN has a bit of that position but it cannot take the point of view of either of these two sides. And but I think there are thousands of such issues. One can defend these issues on their own terms both for and against him. But Bush and I just want to look at the whole picture. It isn't all the returns you know I would like to add in this connection there is not question as to what is the legal government in Cyprus you see because in the early days and I must know about the Turkish vice premier of the vice president rather resigned in a fact on December 21st and he said I am no longer the vice president of Cyprus so far as I'm concerned no legal

government exists just because Similarly the Turkish ministers withdrew from the Council of Ministers not resign but I would see it through well other than theirs and they pursued their after acts of insurrection and that doesn't seem to me that this is in any way. Down the grades or in any way lessens the legality of the present government of Cyprus. I think there is a basic difference between the Greek Cypriots on one side tax supports on the other and probably Greece on one side and Turkey on the other on the rights of each community at the present time. But taking taking the position today. Let me ask you Do you both think for example that the UN mandate should be renewed when the Security Council meets to discuss that. Do you think it should be. So I think there is no question in view of the fact that no AAB attempt has been made to. No no no no progress has been made toward finding an ultimate political solution I think it is necessary to have an outside

force there if for no other reason at least to prevent further bloodshed. Now I think U.N. surely has to say that he's got a place now but change the provisions. Because for the three months it has accomplished a little towards a solution. And if it operates under similar terms I suspect it will not accomplish much if anything it will cause negative results. Developments which you promise to come very soon. But before I come to that I wanted to move to President Johnson's initiative is 2010 his report I don't have it in front of me but said something to the effect that the outlook for an early political settlement was remote. The hope was not very great. President Johnson has taken this initiative and he sent Mr. BALL to Athens and Ankara and the prime ministers of both Greece and Turkey are coming to the White House. And it's seems obvious although we haven't given all the details it seems obvious that President Johnson is going to apply his powers of persuasion which are known to be very great to both these

leaders in an attempt to get them to make some contribution to reach some agreement which might hasten a political solution of the Cyprus problem. Does either of you have any idea as to what might be an acceptable solution. People are talking now again about eventual union of Cyprus was something that might be the solution now. Professor DREYFUS Well of course I cannot claim to speak for anybody except myself I should say very clearly as far as what I think it seems to me there are two types of solutions that could be acceptable could be viable solutions for Cyprus. One of them is the one you have just mentioned. Only you know with Greece and the other is establishing a truly independent state unfettered by outside interference. Now why does the United States at the moment or Great Britain according to press reports seem to favor union with Greece. Well it seems to me that the establishment of an independent

Cyprus under the rather peculiar constitution that was so very divisive and so very difficult in administering because of the veto powers of the Turkish minority upon matters of taxation Internal Security External Affairs defense and what have you because of that and because of the involvement of Greece and Turkey and the United Kingdom by virtue of the Treaty of guarantees or at least of some interpretation of the Treaty of guarantee in the internal affairs of Cyprus. This is clearly a very unstable situation. The very instability of the situation and gave an opportunity due to other powers such as the Soviet Union. To enter this area with a view to manipulating one side against the other with the ultimate objective of weakening their Western position in the area. So apparently an independent Cyprus under the regime that day was decreed for it under the London and so we had agreements is a very unstable situation then.

Therefore the United States will be interested and Great Britain will be interested in submerging this unstable situation by uniting this unstable little part of the world with a bigger part of the world whereby hopefully the stability of the bigger country will be enough to contain the instability of the little country. I think this is taking it it's what we should look at the issues. Involved here. I quite agree with you that the government perhaps has been a little unstable but it is not a given that it could not be a stable government given the proper provisions I think Mr. McCarthy has in his proposals for changes in Constitution indicated that he was seeking stability about his actions after the proposals truly did not underscore these this intention but this is one thing the other thing is One could equally well advance argument the stability of this island is the desired thing. And this I think with the converse of merger with Egypt with Israel with

Turkey and saw all of these are stable countries. I think one has to look at the total picture see the total picture. There are certain idealistic solutions to every problem. But these idyllic idealistic solutions restrain and constraint but certain practical considerations and I would like to say something first. There are at least one inaccuracy in what you just said namely what actions did occur is taking after his proposals the country with no stability took absolutely no action whatsoever except to produce this set of proposals for consideration thereafter the initiative was taken by by the Turkish community in Cyprus. Secondly I would like to say that one does not settle the affairs of a nation quite independently of the aspirations of the population than have been in the area. Therefore it is not the same thing as attaching Cyprus to Egypt or Syria or to Turkey this is a Muslim nation and this is on the way on in the island and is 82 percent Greek have their own aspirations. You know our own culture and their

own political opinion. I see that this is the constraint to the to the to the idealistic solution but there are other constraints once is Turkey's position to that is I think political in a very difficult position. It's a matter of interpretation but I think Turkey interpreted the June agreement in 1960 as a binding agreement. It was underscored by the parties involved it was a legal document it was drawn with a polygonal Bootle all decide to move and when the time came for action. So he interpreted this. Giving her the right to intervene yet she didn't. In order to preserve peace for altruistic purposes. But the attitude in Turkey today is that because of these all too sick the country has been let down by its enemies. And this is creating certain repercussions which must be taken into account. I guess I will I must I must counter that because talk is not an interventionist in my opinion has nothing to do with altruistic grounds in fact you

have been the height of folly for Turkey to intervene militarily and so it has not. I think Turner could have intervened when Turkey was not well I think that the fact is that it did seem that Turkey was threatening to intervene and for one reason or another it did not exist. It would seem that the United States several times used its maximum influence to stop that happening if the Turks did indeed have that intent. I would like to get on to the question of the situation in Turkey and the dangers wreck at the present time because I don't think that much has been written about it you know as a citizen of that country. I person in there much. Turkey has been the worst and I would I think generally speaking this is the temperament of the Turkish group that once there's a commitment this commitment continues until such a time that there are strong forces to reverse the coup and once it does you again it is very difficult to change the trends and the target is approved to this many instances and I see this reversal of the commitment taking place in my country not many

people feel that the country has been let down by its allies because of its strong commitment because it has unquestionably it's close to the train and now there are reports that the left is argument that Turkey should lead in neutral policy is gaining ground within the country and of course since 1960 there have been certain internal events. Each other in the situation and the disciple situation is being themes on these. I don't like to say if you know things about this you know I think that that particular aspect is rather irrelevant to the solution of the Cyprus problem but since it was think it's mentioned to mention the following things first of all I want to not bear or lose sight of the fact that Turkey in 1917 sided with the Central Powers in nine hundred forty in the SE when Laurie very judiciously remained neutral while Greece was ravaged by war and suffered grave consequences thereafter a

second in the second place. Turkish involvement in the Cyprus issue was rather manufactured one because their population of Cyprus was your target. Extra. Action is merely 18 percent of the population of Cyprus which they'll reconstruct is only 2 percent at this time. Of course in addition of course to Turkey's internal difficulties there are obviously the situation of internal difficulties and it seems to me taking into account. I thought you said you don't know much but I think that if one were to dictate a solution to this type of problem simply because of the internal complications in another country I think that this is not the proper way one looks that one ought to look at the problem and seek solutions. I think it is in a sense a problem because we are interested in a piece of good in a world where nations get along and is sold out at that corner is not an answer to the personhood and Turkey is getting more and more so today to give enough I'm sure this is just against against nature but the country can become a

lonely country out there. And this certainly is not a big gain. Well of course one doesn't want to alienate Turkey from the Western world nor does one want to alienate Greece from the West nor exactly on the other hand you see there is a problem of the population of Cyprus and I think any solution has to do justice to the realities of this type of situation and to be under the current situation as well of course. But one does not want to impose a solution that is probably of noxious on the majority of the no one's just as not no one's just us. If in a system where if this were proposes it as a solution now do you think that would be acceptable to the majority of Greek Cypriots provided I think that if embassies were proposed and if independence independence independence unfettered by external interference we are not an open choice then I think it would be acceptable to the community in Cyprus.

Do you think under any circumstances Turkey would accept and assist the union of Cyprus with Greece as a solution to the problem. Shaheen Yes I think the country is. This is my personal opinion may consider the dissolution provided the composition was made for the for the I think I would say sacrifice in pride because it took I think has put a great deal of international politics at stake at the Cyprus issue which I think there have been certain suggestions as giving pointers for those routes to Turkey in exchange for Cyprus exchange of populations and so forth. You feel that there would have to be some in effect your territorial exchange to make it palatable to tell some kind of population exchange I don't think just an outrage of so was why I was there what is the rationale for having a territorial exchange Cyprus an independent country now and one seeks a solution to the problem that is if one were to propose simply because Turkey will not accept an independent Cyprus. I see no reason why Greece should compensate Turkey.

For this in terms of Toronto you mention population exchange What do you have in mind there. Mr. Shaheen Well there are certain I think of population groups into a Greek population the Greek population groups and it seems one source of conflict in Cyprus is the source of the conflict between the populations and the argument is if these populations will exchange meat margins the conflicts between as they were doing about you mean that the Turks of South will be repatriated to Turkey and they've seen Turkey will be repaired. This is one suggestion it's not my suggestion. This is so just and it is we're going not that that would be acceptable to Turkey. You know I don't have to go to the Turkish Cypriots. Under proper circumstances it may be. Do you think that would be acceptable to the Greek Cypriots in Greece professor while I don't know because I'm not involved with this. I would rather think because of the presence of the Patriarch of Constantinople Now there may be some reservations about this. But anyway there is no reason why you turks in Cyprus should be forcibly would

pick creators unless they so desire. Perhaps possible but why would I have the same argument that you know that because you don't desire this and this is I think it is given to you. Well I see that Clark is going to cut a short thank you both very much for coming along. You've been listening to byline Cyprus a special discussion of the most recent events concerning this strife torn island. Tonight's panelists were Phoebus drawings assistant professor of economics at Harvard University and cannon shot in a Turkish graduate student at MIT Jeffrey Godsell editorial writer of The Christian Science Monitor acted as moderator byline is produced by Carolyn is of the WGBH FM stuff.