Ten O'Clock News; George Bush in Boston

[Daniel Needham] 'We're almost on time. Ladies and gentlemen I'm Daniel Needham the president of the Middlesex Club and I want to thank you all for coming. We're very privileged to have with us today George Bush, Director of the CIA. I think I know you're stuck on time, so I think without anything further I'll introduce George Bush to you and let him go ahead. [George Bush] 'I have to say I'm pleased to be back in Boston and I am looking forward to meeting tonight with the Middlesex Club. I'm finding that the withdrawal symptoms from getting out of public life after 10 years are gradually subsiding. I came here from Houston and I'll go back to Houston, and though I do plan to try to stay active in politics in the future and to also try to keep up my interest in foreign affairs in the future, I have no game plan. I'm now involved in one or two business enterprises there.

And I must confess to missing the government assignments that I've had. On the other hand, why it's nice to be able to participate in politics again as well. So with that very brief, those brief comments, please let me try to answer or dodge your questions depending on how deeply you want to probe into matters that I might feel inclined not to discuss because of my security agreements that are still as far as I'm concerned, a fact.' [Questioner 1] 'Mr. Bush, a spokesman, actually a member of the delegation of the U.N. Commission of Human Rights, a U.S. delegate, today pubically apologized for what he said was a US subversion of the Marxist government of late President Salvador Allende in Chile who was overthrown in 1973. So do you feel that was an appropriate apology to make?' [George Bush] 'Well I didn't see the apology. I don't know the context of it. Who was it? Was it Lowenstein?' [Questioner 1] 'No it was Brady Tyson with a fellow.' [Questioner 2] 'We could quote Mr. Tyson. He says...' [George Bush] 'I know who we is and therefore, I

I don't really have any feeling. I mean when I was Director of the Central Intelligence Agency I'd get asked all the time about Allende. I'd refer to the Senate report and say look, I'm trying to build a foreign intelligence capability second to none and not look back. So I'm not sure I would have done that, frankly.' [Questioner 3] 'Do you feel that from what you do know, what you can tell us that the United States was perhaps guilty of wrongdoing in Chile, either through the CIA or any other agency?' [George Bush] 'Well I don't think the Presidents who approved of the actions felt so at the time. You know, it's hard to tell how one would judge the Bay of Pigs in this, in this climate, I mean. In those days a problem that a lot of people had with the Bay of Pigs was that it didn't work. But these times have changed and conditions have

changed. You've got new new mores that affect not only political action but affect political campaign contributions and all of these things. So I don't, I'm not one who feels that one ought to go back and use 1977 moral judgments to pass historical, pass judgment on things that happened in the past. I simply don't want to get bogged down into that mire.' [Questioner 3] 'Do you think these new mores are a step in the right direction or do you want...' [George Bush] 'Well some of them are,sure. Some of them are. On the other hand I was very pleased the other day when I saw President Carter speak out rather forcefully on the need for secrecy in certain things, for example. Some say that was inconsistent with his campaign but I don't think so. I think he wasn't addressing himself as narrowly in the campaign as he was when he became President to a certain specific thing. So I think generally the new mores are good, particularly in the field. I'll mention campaign financing and these things. I encourage that. I was, when I was a

member of Congress, was you know, I think, rather advanced ahead of my time in terms of financial disclosure and that kind of thing. So I felt that there's plenty of need for that.' [Questioner 4] 'How about payments to the heads of foreign governments, King Hussein of Jordan and others? Do we get our money's worth out of that?' [George Bush] 'Well of course I'm not going to comment on anything about the payments but I would simply say that I concur with the President's statement where he found nothing illegal or immoral in regards to what he looked into.' [Questioner 5] 'Do you believe it's an appropriate role for the Central Intelligence Agency to engage in a destabilization or overthrow of former governments? You said you don't want to look retrospectively. Do you think this is the sort of thing that the CIA should be engaged with in the future?' [George Bush] 'Well let me make- let me try to clarify because questions I've been asked on CIA all so far all indicated very overwhelming interest in covert action, very little on intelligence. The intelligence

side of the CIA is its major function. It produces foreign intelligence, collects intelligence, and produces intelligence. That's its role. It does it very well indeed. A figure that was used was that covert action which used to be a big percentage of the budgeting is less than something like 2 percent of the entire CIA budget. And for those who looked into it, they know that overthrowing governments is not a day to day operation, nor is it something that occupies any kind of a resource now. If indeed, let me ask you- I'll answer your question by proposing a hypothetical one. If we all had had ninety nine, a hundred percent hindsight, and we had seen Adolph Hitler coming down the pike and we could have seen that by supporting an opposition party

in Germany to Hitler which may have destabilized Hitler, it might have saved the world the lives of two million Jews and many allied soldiers and many Soviet soldiers. My question to you, sir, would be would political action of this case and in this case have been worthwhile? And I think most people would answer yes. So every President has found it's somewhere in between a doing nothing and having a full military action that a covert capability has been needed by his country. And the way it works now is it's properly staffed out. There's findings signed off on by the Secretaries of State, Secretary of Defense, Attorney Generals, an observer of this Director of Central Intelligence. Then the President in writing makes a finding. Then it's reported to seven committees of the United States Congress. So I think the interests of the American people are adequately protected by these

procedures and that's not to say that the new administration won't come up with newer procedures.' [Questioner 6] 'So I understand you properly. You do believe that it is a proper role even if sometimes a 2 percent rule for the CIA to engage in destabilization or active overthrow of a former government.' [George Bush] 'Well, let me- I'm afraid I've misled you. The 2 percent is not entirely if or even a small percent of the 2 percent might be deemed destabilization. A lot of things might be supporting existing regimes. So you, I'm not going to go into detail on covert action but I think if a President under the procedures that are followed would take a action that would de-stabilize a Hitler, I would be one who would support that, yes.' [Questioner 7] 'How do we protect the interests of the American people against the interests of some of the multinationals that might be more influential then the American people generally, in some of these decisions that are made about covert activities?'

[George Bush] 'I don't think the multinationals, speaking from my own experience, have a damned thing to do with what decisions are reached in terms of anything. I'm talking about since I've been Director. Absolutely nothing. I don't think that's even a concern.' [Questioner 8] 'Mr. Bush, in talking about the moral climate now, do you feel that considering the sudden urge to constantly get things out in the public and move away from either covert activities or payments or what have you, that an intelligence gathering agency such as the Central Intelligence Agency can be effective? Can it do its job properly having to be out in the open?' [George Bush] 'It can do its job. We are producing, in my view, the best foreign intelligence in the world. I think it's impressive intelligence and a lot of it, of course, a lot of intelligence is collected from overt sources. As you may know we're all around the world. But I think it can work. I do favor and I said so when I was Director, to consolidated oversight as opposed to

proliferation of oversight. I made 51 trips as Director in something like the eight months Congress was in session reporting to the Congress. Now that was fine and our staff did much more but there's a certain duplication of effort that I think President Carter properly addressed himself to the other day. Yes we can do what your question asked and are doing it in my opinion.' [Questioner 9] 'So you don't feel the Congressional watchdogs are rendering the agency useless?' [George Bush] 'No, I don't. In fact I think Congressional oversight is a very appropriate function of the Congress and I think the Central Intelligence Agency should cooperate fully with the properly constituted committees and it is as far as I know, it was I can guarantee you when I was there, cooperating fully. So I don't, I was concerned when I first went there at the end of the kind of the hysteria that surrounded some of the public,

some of the disclosures, allegations, some true some false, as to whether people would come forward and volunteer sensitive information if they thought they were going to read their names in the paper. But that, I think, that has quieted somewhat and I don't think that that's proving to be detrimental to the production of good intelligence.' [Questioner 10] 'Recently Newsday, the Long Island publication, printed allegations that the Central Intelligence Agency used bacteriological agents specifically the African Swine Fever Virus in in Cuba to quote- destabilize- unquote. During your term as Director of the Central Intelligence...' [George Bush] 'That allegation, incidentally, was totally false and it was printed. Incidentally, Let me just if I could interrupt you a second, it was picked up and used by an editorial in The New York Times to say that if we're not saying whether it's doing it or not, but if it's doing this kind of thing, therefore, we need certain controls on the Agency. That has been officially denied by the CIA.

But it's very difficult to prove negatives in this business.' [Questioner 10] 'Well my basic question is during your term as the Director of the CIA, did you ever authorize any use of any chemical or biological warfare agents?' [George Bush] 'No, no I did not. I think it's properly against the law and properly covered in the President's Executive Order 11905 which says don't do that. So, but we're still living with those kinds of allegations false though they may be. And I'm surprised that is even even a source of the current question.' [Questioner 10] 'Well does the other side use such agents?' [George Bush] 'No, I am not going to comment on that.' [Questioner 11] 'Do you feel we are the nice guys in the intelligence community? Are the Soviets as nice as we apparently are?' [George Bush] 'Well I don't know what you mean about nice.' [Questioner 11] 'I was talking about not using chemical or biological agents. That this would be against the law.' [George Bush] 'It is against the President's executive order.' [Questioner 11] 'Are we the only country that worries about things like that?'

[George Bush] 'I expect we will worry more about them than other less open societies, yes.' [Questioner 11] 'And you don't, but you don't feel that hurts the intelligence gathering functions?' [George Bush] 'Well I don't think use of chemical chemicals like this has a damned thing to do with the gathering of intelligence. See, I'm separating those two.' [Questioner 11] 'Ok what about the 2 percent rule of subversion that you talk about?' [George Bush] 'Well listen, please, I must be far less articulate than I thought. In the first place I tried to separate out that covert action does not necessarily mean subversion. And the 2 percent was a figure, less than 2 percent that's used for covert action. It was a figure that was made public sometime last year compared with maybe 40 or 50 percent in the past. So now what was the question again?' [Questioner 11] 'Well again, do you feel that we are hurting, do you feel that the CIA is being hurt in its total overall actions by perhaps going along with certain rules and regulations in other countries?' [George Bush] 'I see. No, I don't think so. I do worry about and I've so informed some of the senators that that we ought to take a look at some of

the guidelines on counterintelligence. I worry about whether those guidelines have been drawn too narrowly to make our counterintelligence capability less effective than it might be. But I don't worry about it in terms of the production of intelligence.' [Questioner 11] 'Mr. Bush, would you say that we have, that you have surmised the best foreign intelligence gathering operation anywhere? We certainly spend a lot of money on it and I would guess that you would tell us how much. But I wonder if the American people agree if that's true. Many of us remember when you were testifying at your own confirmation hearings as head of the CIA you had just come from Peking where you had been our U.S. representative and had to say to the Senate that you had no idea who this new fellow was who was in command over there and nobody in the CIA seemed to know. Even now we don't seem to know clearly what the Soviet Union is up to in terms of their intentions.' [George Bush] 'No, I think that's a good point. Well I think that's a very good point. There are some things we do know with facts certain and there are some things-especially when you get into the field of intentions,

governmental changes in a very highly controlled closed society where it is extremely difficult to know everything. So I hope I haven't left the impression that when I say we have the best that we know everything there is to know. But I think there are some areas where it is almost impossible to predict change or what's going to happen. So the intelligence is less than perfect, but it's still the best there is.' [Questioner 12] 'We never heard of the man who is now head...' [George Bush] 'Well that's not true that we never heard of him.' [Questioner 12] 'You hadn't at the time you took over.' [George Bush] 'I had heard of him but I had not thought that he would become President, become Premier of China at the time he had. I dated Madame, which I was reminded of after...' [Questioner 13] 'Mr. Hunt who was recently released from prison after his Watergate involvement said that the CIA as it now stands is gutted, recalling the Agency when he was in it he thought much more effective Agency. He says it relies too heavily on electronic gadgetry, space satellites with not enough on the human element, probably implying

there should be more human covert involvement by the CIA gathering intelligence clandestinely.' [George Bush] 'Clandestinely. Really, you'll excuse the professional professional. I don't agree with that. I do think that there is much more emphasis on technological means of collection but I think you need a combination. I think we're getting it. I have indicated and I thought you know that there are some concern as to whether you're getting all you can from clandestine sources. And when an agent thinks that his name's going to be spread over some newspaper or that there's a likelihood of that happening and is thus causing damage to him and his family. So I doubt that you know I'm sure some don't come forward that might want to volunteer the information. But I would expect Mr. Hunt is out of touch too, and doesn't know exactly how that's working now so I think he puts his finger on a general point. You know that it is worth some analysis but I'm not concerned about it.' [Questioner 14] 'Fidel

Castro in a couple of recent interviews has alleged all sorts of very intricate and sort of strange plots against his life by such things as Machine Gun packed cameras and all sorts of attempts to poison him. Without breaking your oath of security or what have you, is Mr. Castro indeed being accurate or is he perhaps...' [George Bush] 'No, in many of his statements relating to the episodes, he accused the CIA for example of downing the plane in the Barbados a while back and it simply wasn't true. Fortunately many times when he speaks live most people recognize that he is not speaking truth.' [Questioner 14] 'What about attempts on his life? Were there CIA attempts?' [George Bush] 'I refer you to the Senate investigations.' [Questioner 15] 'But were there valid concerns that Ted Sorenson would not have made a capable director of the CIA?' [George Bush] 'Well I guess some of the Senators that argued that way and the majority of them currently on the committee felt that way.' [Questioner 15] 'What was your view?' [George Bush] 'Oh well my feeling was that if

he'd answered, you know hung in there and gone through the rather difficult and tough questioning and satisfied the Senate on the points they raised that he could have been an effective Director. I know I just hark back to my own confirmation hearings for where the problems were somewhat different. But it wasn't a bed of roses. It was, can I keep in there to the end of the hearings? Very emotional hearings were drawing to a close. and all kinds of allegations were made as to whether I could effectively run that Agency or whether an outsider like me, particularly one with a political past, could get the support from the intelligence community. And I found that once I was confirmed I did get the support of the intelligence community. And I wouldn't have been confirmed though if I couldn't have answered certain questions to the satisfaction of the Senate. So if he'd been confirmed I think he could have done the job, the right

man.' [Questioner 16] 'Mr. Bush, up on Capitol Hill right now there's a lot of controversy over this pair of assassinations. Would you care to comment on whether or not the House is wasting its time trying to dig into these two cases?' [George Bush] 'Well I don't, I really haven't followed the grubby details of it since I left Washington a few weeks ago. My own view when I was at the Agency was that the Agency and I know the Bureau- I would feel the same way about the Bureau- should cooperate fully with the committees, the committee, in order to do one thing. Lay to rest the understandable doubt that exists in the American peoples' minds about the assassination of President Kennedy and Martin Luther King. I mean, so...' [Questioner 16] 'Do you feel that there have been satisfactory answers to both of those assassinations?' [George Bush] 'Well, I haven't looked into it enough personally in terms of the detail but I've- the only question I've got, the only problem I've got in answering your question is I'm not sure that the hearings as they are now

going forward could indeed have the credibility to lay to rest the uncertainties that exist. But my position was when I was in as Director, and remains, that the Agency should cooperate fully and hope, and I would hope that out of what happened the doubt that exists in many peoples' minds would be laid to rest. I am convinced the CIA has absolutely nothing to hide in that kind of an investigation.' [Questioner 17] 'Mr. Bush in your appearance here tonight are you going to be discussing the CIA or are you going to be talking about rebuilding the Republican Party?' [George Bush] 'I'm going to be talking a little bit about the combination of where I think the world is in terms of what kind of potential for peace and then about the Republican Party. I'm not going to be discussing the CIA.' [Questioner 17] 'What about President Carter's Human Rights stand? Some people say it may be threatening or jeopardizing detente. Others say it's a bold new stroke

to foreign policy. How do you view it?' [George Bush] 'I say, wait and see. Take time and wait and see how that works.' [Questioner 17] 'As of now though, is it an encouraging sign? Do you agree with it?' [George Bush] 'I think it's too, I don't think the returns are in yet. And therefore, you certainly respect a person who feels strongly about human rights. But one also, various positions I've been in, I realize the great sensitivity in terms of the internal affairs of the country. And therefore, I'd say it's just really too hard to say how it's going to come down.' [Questioner 18] 'Bill Safire has you as a candidate for president United States. Care to comment?' [George Bush] 'Well I haven't seen his article either. I've been a little out of touch. But that's very flattering and I have indicated that I'm going to save time. I've structured my life to have, to keep up my interest in national politics. And I couldn't- how one could conceivably become a candidate with

four years of political...'