Studio Talk; Boston Architectural Center

Our guest this evening is Sanford our Greenfield architect and chairman of the Boston architectural Center's educational committee and we will be discussing the Boston architectural Center past and future on the panel this evening are most it's the best of the best years as College of Art. Lee Worton president fol. associates. Sanford Greenfield May we talk about the past of the Boston architectural center. First when was the center formed and for what reason. Well that's two interesting questions. The center began on December 11th one thousand eighty nine as the Boston architectural club. And in its incorporation it was stated quote for the purpose of associating those interested in the profession of architecture with a view to mutual encouragement and help in studies and acquiring and maintaining suitable

premises property etc. necessary to a social club and such as may be needed for public lecture exhibitions classes and entertainment unquote. The original incorporated as were. A number of distinguished architects S.H. blackball author Everett Clifton Sturgis Edward Stephens W. T Partridge Edward Cabot Robert S. Peabody Albert Davenport William S. Norris George Porter Robert Andrews and gentleman by the name of Howard Walker. In forming a big cloud bank in 1889. Do you think that their primary reason was a social reason or was it a professional architectural interest. Well I think it was both but I think probably primarily the club which had evolved from the Architectural Association of Boston of

eighteen eighty three provided evening classes for Grassman working in offices during from life in K. asked Pen and ink and watercolors of the members often instruction and this was all on a voluntary basis and as you well know it still is on a voluntary completely voluntary basis. Today I think one of the strong influences at the time was the popularity of the tradition of the called the bows of the Sorbonne which worked on the FAA system. What is the system. Well it's very simply a very close relationship which exists between a student and teacher on an informal basis where students. Would join a workshop or an office or a studio of a practicing architect or

artist and by a combination of. Working as an apprentice another disciple an associate who educated himself and participated fully in the creative process. What type of training would a draftsman in an architectural office in the eighteen hundred eighteen eighties have had. Would he have had a man an art school bank ran an architectural background actually architectural education. 75 to 100 years ago it was almost nonexistent. I believe one of the first schools architecture was at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. But generally if I remember correctly I think formal architectural education is

probably less than 50 years old outside of MIT school locker room. So that the informal education movement the young architect would receive at the time would be one working in the office and two in the broader a static relationship in the evening center. Well yes I think that was the function of the Center here in Boston and I think generally most architects of the time studied abroad or. Became architecture through the apprenticeship system or followed a matriculated in an arts or science or engineering school and then through an apprenticeship system specialized not protection. I wouldn't want to mislead your listeners and have them feel that this was absolutely the final or absolute method

of education but I think basically this was predominant. When were the standards or the legal standards set up for the training of an architect. When did state set up state codes and have had to be passed. I'm not quite sure that there still is a complete uniform basis upon which all the states operate at the present time. There is a it is necessary to have a license in each state. In fact in architecture yes to become an architect there are a number of different paths. A student may follow. Basically there is a kind of it was a legal definition in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. In order to become a registered architect in the Commonwealth you must pass a four day examination.

Three days are an eight hour process and one day is a 12 hour process of design. You know what to qualify for this four day examination. You either have to graduate from an accredited school of architecture and the most schools of architecture today. Nor is he a bachelor voc tech from the credit school takes five years and this is being changed it's becoming a six year program. Almost universally or the tendency is we got a six year program. In addition to your five year accredited school education you need three years of apprenticeship in an architect's office or simply working for a registered architect. After graduating with your bachelor of architecture degree this qualifies you for the four day examination. There is another method in the Commonwealth and that is too with a

high school diploma. One can become registered architect if For least he can qualify for the examination for a registered architect by working for 13 years I believe it's 13 if. Unit in an office of an accredited architect registered doctor and finally this one. A third method in the Commonwealth and that is by tending the boss not actual send. One can evenings and working in an architect's office during the day. One can become a registered architect the process is to complete the course at the center which consists of a five year evening program plus a thesis and you receive a certificate and once you receive your architectural center certificate you need five years of experience in a registered

architects office. One of those five years may be concurrent with your education at the Boston architectural center so that by use it to fit the architectural send. Plus five years experience qualifies you for taking the registration examination in the Commonwealth. Do all cities such as the Boston architectural scientific know I think last night doctoral center is somewhat unique in this sense. Philadelphia has had a school but I don't think it's as strong or as consistent as the architectural Center here in Boston. Then there is the architectural League in New York but to the best of my knowledge there are more of a professionally oriented organization and do not really have a complete program of courses that we have at the architectural center so that I think we

are somewhat unique. How many students have graduated and become market. We have had well over a hundred. Graduates who have become architects from the architectural fandom and how many are enrolled at the present. Two hundred fifty two hundred fifty over the five year program. That's right. Oh they were very sandy when you speak of the voluntary basis. Does that mean that the teachers are professionals who are giving their time freight. Yes that's exactly what I mean Les. And there is there is there are a tuition fee for the students. Yes there is tuitions fee at the present time it's two hundred fifty dollars probably three hundred dollars next year. This is you know can't possibly be a direct question because it's sort of an opinion requesting question why does it do the teachers do what

they do. Well it's that's a good question. It's a good one because you have to think of it you know it through and through I suppose the obvious answer is they like to do it and they get something from it. And they also feel they're helping the younger people into the profession. I would like to speculate as deeply on why they do it. I suspect that considering the nature of who the faculty is they're mostly there are perhaps two general classifications. I think for the most part many of them are young people out of school. One two three four years out of our credit architectural schools many of whom are in the process of apprenticeship and have not yet received their own registration. And I think many of them are of

the other category who teach there are young architects who have become registered in the last half dozen years and who are opening up their own offices and developing their own practices or are. Young people with responsibility in large architectural offices. I suspect that much of the motivation for teaching there is because they're furthering their own education. I think they feel that the process of architecture requires a continuing education with advanced continually advancing technology continually changing the social demands one must constantly be aware of these factors and must partake in an awareness and consequently a kind of education process. And I think in a way it's a it's a continuing

education for all practitioners involvement that the faculty is getting from it. This is not the only reason. In fact it's probably the single most important byproduct of what they're doing but. But it's interesting to speculate why you were under the wing of any larger. University or college or do you have any relationship with any other teaching institution most specifically have you any relation to MIT here in town. Yes we rely very heavily on the teaching faculties and the administration at MIT and at Harvard Graduate School of Design very frequently the lecturers who teach courses in history or structures have either taught ID or are recommended to

us by MIT faculty. The most obvious relationship is the fact that the dean of the Harvard Graduate School of Design and the dean of the school of architecture and planning at MIT are on our board of directors. The other relationship is a very frequently we send students more promising students to MIT and Harvard. And frequently they're given credit for two years of architectural design when they're accepted as special students at those schools. It moved as if the center has been going since eighteen eighty nine. I am interested in how many times they curriculum has had a deliberate review and change of

any idea probably never. I think that curriculum review is are a you know or curriculum perhaps with something like life and all that it always changes but when you say deliberately it's a rather difficult thing. The architectural center like many other educational institutions consists of people with differing views. And it's not always easy to get everyone to agree at one time as to what the future of architecture will be and how to teach it. There has been an evolution of curriculum since 1880 9. We no longer teach. Drawing from life in cast pen and ink and watercolors As such this is not the. This is not the only courses in the curriculum.

Actually we have today a fairly diverse curriculum which takes three hours three evenings a week with possibly 9 to 10 contact hours during the week and consists of the normal professional courses given at Harvard and MIT such as structures acoustics He-Man lading an air conditioning and lighting. City planning problems in print both. I think our main difference in curriculum is probably in contact hours with just our faculty. Just doesn't see our students as often as Normally one would see faculty and credit at schools and this is obviously due to the fact that our students are attending evening classes and working

a 40 hour work week as draftsmen architects offices. This is really it's a someone who's interested in architecture and really can't afford to go to one of the architectural colleges. Would he end up really with a good education in architecture or would he be able to achieve. It in architecture under these give these conditions. Yes I know our best students are equal to the best of Harvard and MIT. We like to mention among some of these distinguished students some people like Wallace K. Harrison who the architect for the much of the Brandeis campus and here in our own area

and responsible for my Palin Opera House at Lincoln Center and the many other important buildings Darrelle St.. So I think it's probably America's best known architect. Louis Skidmore principal in the firm of Skidmore Owings and Merrill or one of the most important and largest architectural office of the country. Ralph Walker and and Lee bacon. Yes. How much of a load Do the students carry How many hours a day and he proximately 9 that's of that's contact that's in the class. Obviously they spend perhaps two or three times as much of that at home.

It's quite a total forty plus nine times three. Yes it's quite a lot of sacrifice many of them are. Most of them are older students and most of them are married and have families you know with money and organizations such as yours which are. It doesn't fit the common pattern of the educational institutions that are preparing for your particular profession. One would suspect Oh perhaps like the New School for Social Research or I think they call it the University of downtown Chicago. These offbeat institutions that have been created out of a particular political orientation in some case or a particular professional rebellious orientation one would look for such a characteristic such a quality of orientation to the faculty or to the students. Do you think

the the Boston architectural Center has a point of view. An axe to grind a recognizable orientation toward their profession through graduate school. Good question. A. I don't know if we can be thought of or have a kind of image a very special image architecturally in terms of form. Obviously when the head of a school is a particular thing was Doc Tech such as unknowing to the technologies I mean the rowing to name just one special case. The graduates of that school very frequently do have this very special

orientation formal formal orientation. I think though that there is a kind of social. Character of a characteristic Vostok to act offended but I don't think I'm prepared to describe it. I think that if we were to hypothesize for a future and research investigations I suspect that many of our students come from a low or low middle class families that many of them when they come to the architectural center are looking for a new job orientation and it's a fact that until recently most students coming to the center learned of the center by word of mouth and usually have learned of it from

people who have been to the center or from draftsmen architects offices or architects so that the students coming here have been a very special group in this respect. We have a very open admissions policy. Aside from requiring high school diploma and some very basic courses in trigonometry and mathematics. And the ability to drill to some extent will that we pride ourselves on drawing because of the requirements for admission are too great. Once you're in though it becomes rather a difficult because of the evening school grind and the sacrifices that one usually encounters in trying to continue over a five to seven year period of night school. The

graduates of the center are very much in demand as employees in architects offices. They find that their incomes increase rapidly over the years even before they become. We see their staff it gets while they're in school. They make very good team workers. They become very responsible people in architects offices and they're usually people who when they enter an architect's office produce immediately and this becomes a very desirable kind of ask. Can we move away from the Education for a moment into the professional activities and the center Sandy. What is the nature of the professional activities center involves itself. Well I was hoping you'd get to that question. As you know we

are now completing construction of a new building at the corner of her referred to Newbury Street in the Back Bay just opposite the Prudential. And we're planning a rather elaborate celebration in conjunction with the dedication of his new building and May 8th through May 14th and matter of fact. We hope to provide some music on Newbury Street on Sunday. I always go in there. What was it like. Real noisy and the governor will be there and Mayor Collins and Dr. Walter Gropius will help us open up the ribbon and throughout the week we've planned a program which we hope is going to symbolize the kind of center for

architecture. This building can become the each day of the week is turned over to Allied professions and institutions such as the Association of general contract is the American Society of Civil Engineers. The ladies committee of the Institute of Contemporary Art which I think very appropriate is going to meet our God. We are planning a one society of architects is having their awards program. On Thursday evening and I am passe and will receive the Hoffman Parker award and Judy Stratton the President on my tv off will be there representing the corporation for the design of the science building tech.

Starting Friday and to culminate the activities of the dedication with the data that will be May 13 will be a series of seminars concerning the future of architecture the first will be forces shaping the role of the architect and you've had some and I was like that before haven't you. Yes we had a conference. At the end of 1954 in December on architecture in the computer which we call the first boss knocked actual sent the conference which was we'd like to think an event which focused attention upon the role of the computer and its relationship to the creative process ease of architecture.

For the profession and we hope well it is a computer have to do with getting where you are to do with any of it well and truly. I think if you think of the computer as an extension of yourself it becomes a kind of a very special tool for analyzing and synthesizing a great number of complex variables that a man cannot analyze and synthesize without the use of this tool for shaping the role of the architect today are so vastly complicated that it's impossible to establish very quickly or very easily avoid at all a form and an understanding of our environment. Without the computer without the ability of the computer to help us.

It sounds very good but what has it got to do with art. What has it got to do with the creative process. Well I thought I had I thought I had implied what it had to do with the creative process. I think that and I think what I got from what you said Sandy was that given a view a series of problems that you can feed a computer certain amount of information and it can deal with the environment and deal with structural problems and so on. What is it got to do with the way the building is going to look how the human being responds to it. Well I'm not sure what the relationship of. Well let's let's start how the what has to do with the way the building looks at the form or the appearance of the building is obviously related to the organization of the structure. Mechanical equipment heating

and understanding of the use of the building. The users of the building their patterns of circulation the frequency and characteristics of occupation of the building lighting day lighting night lighting of the roof facts of Cusa go applications in terms of the human psychologically and just simply functionally just to name a very few variables which have to be organized in creating the form of the building. The form of the building is determined by the relationship and the organization of these variables that the variables today are much more complex. Then they've ever been before

to aid us in organizing and understanding and their interrelationship. The computer can play a very important role in the past and even in practice today much of the disorganization occurs intuitively. You sort of jump in with both feet. You take a few variables those that you can handle mentally and organize them leaving a myriad of variables outside of which must be outside of your intuitive grasp. The computer makes it possible to incorporate these vs other problems. Let's say that you program a computer for poor hospitals and you feed this computer all of the information that you know about acoustic thing heating and surgery and taking care of patients and so on and come up with the same form.

Two days in a row. You won't come up with the same form. If you know I don't think that is that a logical analysis of these variables necessarily produces one form. I think that a logical and that from a logical analysis can come several different forms but at least you will know what can be reasonably sure that the FULL of that of the several different forms you might come up with. They are all incorporating a greater number of variables than would have been incorporated had you been working on the problem only intuitively and only with a limited number of variables and intuition can handle it. There's one other very informed speculation the computer of which I personally think will play ever increasing role that's computer graphics.

It's the ability. To simulate the visual environment from a design we can make animated movies. With very accurate perspective projections of our designs. So this could be possible to simulate a walk through a physical environment before it's actually constructed. When the aircraft industry designs a new plane they don't immediately go into production they build models they simulate reality and they test it and if it works they build it and if it doesn't work they scrap it or revise it or what have you. Unfortunately we architects don't know about our mistakes until they well and visually and then he won't admit them.

We've got you fellows around to continue the remote. But computer graphics makes it possible to realize or to study the visual environment before the building is built and so that we could take a walk through a building take a walk through a street we could take a walk through a Prevention Center complex and experience it three dimensionally with limitations obviously it will be equal to the real thing. And and we could redesign it based on the simulation. Now simulations are possible with the computer but areas cost wise we can simulate the costs of construction before the building is built and perhaps accurately forecast price. We could simulate circulation of people moving through a fairly complex air terminal or the relationship used on buildings like a brick then Chael complex.

Well computers are in use in certain limited areas today in the construction techniques of a system known as Critical Path Method which helps the builder a contractor. Schedule construction time and materials and labor. How soon how soon do you think the computer will play. And from what I know from what you have said it seems that it might become a major part of the architecture. How soon do you think that the computer will play a major part in most architects approach to designing. The words has it been incorporated into the curriculum. Most architectural school. No it hasn't been incorporated in the curriculum most architectural schools it is being incorporated into the

curriculum of many architectural schools. There was work out of the University of Oregon which is working with computer methodology trying to utilize the computer as a kind of a model to simulate reality in certain kind of design instances. I am mighty is conducting a small research project on the computer use computer aided design. It's not computer design. Cavanagh Well actually I am afraid it is all right. Harvard has been doing some work in this area and actually I think that number of architectural schools or locked actual schools have expressed an interest a more a less I think the schools recognize the importance of it and I think that this in a sense is the answer to your question of me

when really when the relationship between the computer and design and design methodology is more clearly understood and this is a process of understanding is occurring and will continue to occur. I think there will very definitely be a result in which architecture is aided by computer design and maybe 10 years maybe five. Think of the question of what because I know that in other areas for instance I recall seeing a film probably on TV whereby computers have been used to determine the amount degree of fill for a superhighway here in Massachusetts just from photographs information fed to the computer monitor photographs but the this is a is the

survey cross-sections. They've been able to accurately figure out exactly how much Phil has to be taken away to get the proper degree of incline for road building design. I think it's very good that you brought that up because that is still another example of how the computer's output. It is not a decision or a design it is a statement of the results of the organizing as Sandy put it the location the information in a certain way. But there are many alternatives to how you can organize it. For example in the illustration you gave had I remember that they had many possible paths between different towns and this computer in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts was in effect announcing the economic results of taking one path vs. another. But then of course there were various time results. Also one would be constructed more quickly than another and there were various aesthetic results one would be a more scenic route than

another and there would be various maintenance costs that came out of one route. So there was always the human there to handle the alternatives and make Finally some judgment as to what weighting of the alternatives was to apply and thus for in effect create the final design computer aided. Send me on this second conference that will help celebrate the opening of the center. Are you going to be dealing more with this question in that in that particular subject. The forces shaping the role of the architect are what you'll be dealing with other. Aspects of contemporary life that the architect must come to grips with. I think in the second conference certain underlying assumption that a computer is here to stay. Well that's why I say where we are now where would you move to. I suspect that we won't be as self-conscious about it as we were 18 months

ago. But I think the objective of this conference is to. It is to bring together related professionals in various disciplines discuss perhaps the basic nature of the problems confronting the future role of the architect is obviously expanding areas of knowledge and rapidly changing social demands that are creating these new forces. And what are they. Some people seem to think that these forces are characterized by the architects continuing involvement with urban design and a design of a visual environment larger than a single building. Others seem to see a change accelerated by pressures exerted by the industry and by industrialised

building compounds and still others see developers playing an important role in providing a complete service. The question I think that's raised a number of questions which you raised. What's happening to the traditional role of the architect. Will it be reserved in the future only for the rich and for those few who commission buildings of a monumental nature. And others are concerned about whether or not the profession will have to split into two halves. One concern with conceptual design and the other concerned with implementation and these are all new problems. Still others are concerned of whether or not we can find a design methodology. And this is the price of the computer to synthesize today's complexities or the role of the use of the computer. Can the function of the Architect be extended to include research and can he be trained for this

discipline. How do we handle new areas of knowledge. Do we just let them go by default. Our inability to handle them and continue designing the sort of you know handicraft manner by intuition allow people think number blocked X still feel that architecture is still an empirical or highly subjective in decision making process and it's independent of the need for research. And these people are not without some very strong arguments. Finally we hope that the conference will give the educator an opportunity to discuss certain problems who are having the dean of School of Fine Arts Holmes Perkins from University of Pennsylvania on a panel with Charles Moore who is chairman of the School of Art and Architecture at Yale and Burnham Calley was the dean of the College of Architecture going Al and Robert Geddes who was the

dean of the School of Architecture at Princeton and Romaldo Giurgola who was chairman of the School of Law. Dr. Klein the university is Saturday morning on May 14th discuss the education of the architect because obviously the future of architecture is. Inherently tied up with the education of the Arctic where had the educator concentrated his efforts in the past where I was like I don't like a very ambitious program. And when we were talking about the computer and the architect and now that you're talking about the second conference Sandy I wonder what type of impact this has had on the profession or the allied. Profession. The first conference. You know what. What do you expect the conference to accomplish. I wish I know if if I knew if I thought I knew the answer to what it would accomplish he wouldn't probably.

I suspect that the ingredients of it were good conference to bring together people who have different ideas on a subject and others and create an opportunity at the conference or as many of these ideas to be heard in voice. I think going to skate to results is to is to start with failure in terms of accomplishing anything. So I really am somewhat reluctant to say I've purposely not tried to anticipate what the results will be other than to alert the profession to the fact that there are important forces

role of the architect. And hopefully we will all learn something about these forces at the conference. Did you have any feedback at all from the first conference in terms of really acquainting other architects with the possible use of the computer. Yes I think the first conference was kind of an eye opener for all of us. The amount of work that was being done on the periphery of the profession by non architects for the most part and yet developments that I've heard in that computer technology which were applicable to architecture the ability to talk to the computer by drawing the ability as a computer to talk to the architect through computer graphics. The realization that intuition would still have to be employed you know in the computer aided design.

But that understanding of the role of intuition and and the role of the computer in analyzing the immense number of variables I think was kind of a new realisation There's also been a great amount of activity that was generated by this conference on the part of the gum on the part of the profession in terms of magazine articles in terms of curriculum changes in the university. In terms of the general general attitude towards towards the computer protection something Sony has a type of thing that I was thinking about in terms of and anticipating some sort of response. Leeward Sandy I'd like to ask what the new building is like and the

main reason I ask that is because it must have taken an awful lot of courage for architects to build a building and stand up to the criticism of architects an architectural center has to be in a building and void that must be quite a courageous thing to do. Well we like to think that we get out from underneath that when we rock Tober of 963 the board of directors voted to hold a design competition for the new building. Rather than interview architects and make a choice we opened up the design and the commission of the new building to an international competition which. Had several hundred participants. It's not necessarily the best way of going about getting a good business building design.

I think in some instances it's a it's the best way I think in others it is and I think there are some instances where building is a very complicated process where the programming requires a continuing dialogue between the architect and the owner and that this may have cover over months and possibly even years and selecting a solution by competition would not produce the best building I think is a perfectly valid way just like an architect but not necessarily always the best way to select a design I think in our instance we are very fortunate of several hundred the architects from all over the country and outside the country. The winning firm. Was such rationally and Jack my right here in Cambridge and in my own personal opinion I

think it was the best solution. I don't always think I'm not always in agreement with the jury's decisions but I think in this case they produce an excellent solution. I think we're very fortunate in that the sign we said came up with was going to serve our purposes extremely well. I ask that question because when an architect who group of architects so I never I could think that way. It seems almost to put a stamp of approval on that thinking. Well we had a very special problem because we had to elect someone from our own profession for certain amount of criticism of the city hall having banged down my competition in terms of wildly in the perhaps the best market takes in the United States would not get involved with with that type of petition. Yes one of the things that competition does is

it sort of follows a kind of tradition. Proven successful in the past in other fields not only architecture of course architectural competitions and commissions for works of art as a banner to dishnet method of selection I mean throughout history it's not a unique or a new system it's a good traditional ones consequently it's a safe way to make a judgment. Second it's also been successful in our own free enterprise system too. I should qualify that here and I state on a free enterprise basis and competitions are a kind of free enterprise and extraordinarily democratic basis with young people still in school or just dive school and register. I know an architect's compete on the same level with established architects so that it just seems that one would also assume that the judges would reserve the

right to reject all of the entries if they felt that they weren't up to a particular standard I think so I don't this is never happened. It has but I don't remember. Like I couldn't give you an example of what has happened. But what if they weren't serving the interests. Don't you see that it is the boss not protector center will certainly be a prestige prize for any high tech that got a real prestige plan what is the financing. He must not detect a pattern. Well there's private fundraising from mostly from members of the profession and from interested friends outside the profession. We've also received seven hundred and fifty thousand dollar long term low interest loan from the

housing and home finance minister ration for the community facilities and ministration just federal agents. Yes that's the that's the age of Education Program. Which makes our current charges much more equitable than the privately financed structure in many architectural groups have their own building professional group building outside the university. I can think of at the moment seems fairly to me. I suspect that this may be a kind of look into the future you know. I think that the whole process of continuing education for architecture for practitioners is just as

other segments of our society require continuing education are going to be something which you see springing up you know other parts of the country I'm sure Texas money will come up with an architecture of your money well Chicago money well San Francisco money I'm sure that centers will spring architectural centers will be springing up in the very near future all over the country at the moment I think many of us. Not that I know of but but I but I think that people are looking to the architecture. And here in Boston as a kind of. Proving Ground. Naturally you know we've talked about the past and the present one of the future. Well we really were just talking a little bit about that well actually I think the future is very exciting as far as the B A C is concerned

I think it will continue to do many of the things we have done that is to aid students and the furthering their education or in seeking a degree from accredited schools there for their study. But soccer center continuing the anti-aliasing system. No actually we haven't been and you like me at this time for about 20 years now but I think that. We will be Can continuing to provide education for. People interested in the magic of architecture. Not only to become educated or skilled personnel for architects offices but to educate individuals to have a basic understanding of architecture and building problems. For work you know allied fields in the future. We also hope to provide a program for practitioners as well as

an educational program to supplement and reinforce job experience for interns. What would you do for someone who for the first time decided that they wanted to build a building. And I have no way of judging what the architect does for him. That's not very frequent That's a problem that frequently arises I think it occurs because there is no educational medium which reaches the interested lay adult population and this is this is very definitely a function of can be and should be a function of the boss not sent them to reach the public. I think it was a society of architects is also interested in educating the public towards the function of the architect. It may be that there are a number of areas. There

is a number of areas of education obviously that require cultivation. For example the course is a high caliber dealing with technical cultural administrative problems encountered with actual practice that is constantly changing. Five years after you're out of school you've lost touch with these things. How do you get back into text I'm not talking about refresher courses crayon colossus who I'm talking about probably a very vital nature which the kind which the two conferences or the one which we've had in the one we're going to have dealing with but not dealing with them on a one or two day conference basis but on a continuing basis of say a course of 15 or 30 sessions or your conference is open to the public oh yeah just for us they are open to the public. And if anyone is interested they should write to the architectural

center or I presume they could write to you for further information or you can me just show up on the 13th or 14th where they be admitted. Yes they could show up on the 13th and 14th and they would be admitted with the same registered and the registration that Sanford R. Greenfield thank you very much for joining me this evening in studio talk. You know drawn up amongst the natives to get them out. We don't seem to be trying to help one another We've lost three we've become callous. Well Mr. Underwood McCormick was certainly most grateful to you for joining us tonight and your comments have been most immolating. We have been talking about a very wide subject you know how to

improve law enforcement. We've recognized that somehow the image of the policeman must be improved. We've recognized that there are things that must be done with the system of Peano the penal system itself particularly to improve rehabilitation and most importantly I guess we have recognized the important area of crime prevention to prevent crime in the beginning. Thank you very much. Just because. You've been listening to the fourth live broadcast of the Citizen Action Forum originating in studio one at WGBH Boston and produced jointly by the Boston College to be out of public affairs and WGBH Af-Am produces where four Boston College Richard Olson and what I would you GBH Richard Lee moderator was Father WCB Joyce SJ dean of the College of Business Administration Boston College. This is the eastern educational radio network. Two weeks from tonight at the same time we invited us into citizen action for our

special guest will be administrator of the Boston Housing Authority and I because there are going to be other strikers that ceiling sitting in a good visit with us and they're all right said Mrs. Reeves in the smoking room you know you know this is a me with but here she serves in the back that either she did as a standard thing your. Foot in mouth in the house but she wants to see her all over. Her It is the shade of doubt that physically strikes. The sheriffs never said its solution using the old with a resume.

Sometimes I don't. Say ask me is still here with. Me. Oh shit. Oh shit.

Oh no the bell will be the last series that says it could make a big roll roll but he just may have a real snake here Street. Hello he's in the Chanel. If they're innocent they should all Jesus see if the market was going to. Be upset and maybe earphone the small fee from a careful for this day shall be here get the gear for all or see it then it means to say sure that

help now is just. The money but here here and here in the set o milling it seems to me sick or sad to see it ousts long. It has been. See that. Oh no we make. I would tell you they have. All rest. She says you know I mean. This is now.

When she had all her money he says I'm going to make a movie you ceremony. That's next right here. Shannon Maher. I mean. If you don't like it. Here are seven we say here. You're a silly name.

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