Sunday Forum; Regina Yando: The Other End Of The Log

I guess everybody most everybody has been here before about what we do as everybody introduces themselves and then the guest introduces herself and then I start interviewing her and then last about 15 minutes and then open it up for everybody and put aside about an hour for that so I like that. And then usually allow maybe 15 minutes or so at the end in case I think sometimes in answering questions you don't get to say as much as you'd like or there's something at the end you want to put aside a little time for the guest at the end to do. She was funny thank you the first woman we've had and I really practiced I'm getting ready to retire. It's good practice. But so anything by letting go you know let it go. So my name is Will Fitzhugh. I'm on the resource center stage and I live in Sudbury. Why do.

People use such old hands anyway. Thank you so much especially on the last one I wasn't sure where you Regina until a certain point I knew somebody named you sunnier. Yes actually it was that I gain a certain point and then someone named me something like you know like grade school

peers maybe sonny my parents don't call me sonny they still call me like you know and everybody else calls me sonny. Is it an I don't know I guess everybody goes through name changes and some summer ones who feel good about and some aren't. You must have an opportunity to drop that as you going along with you must like it. I think I like it yes. Was that you know I don't know all the story. My father didn't want a boy you know. Thank you wanted a girl. Now this comes partly from previous conversation but I'm wondering just it's just a point of to begin in a way that you pick up this nickname here or was it in another. Well actually I think it was yes. I say that because I moved many times like about 30 times before I got out of the school where I got the first 12 grades.

My parents are hungering for my father I think is really a gypsy never told me that because he really definitely likes to move around the country. And yeah it was in school in Ohio someplace. I pictured you know often I guess some people I'm most familiar with some of the larger army people as it was you know no no no I mean he said it as I said he is a gypsy just likes to move joyed seeing different parts of the country from California to Florida. I think by the time I was 12 we've been to every state in the United States at that time without the two extra And he just set a bar so places after wild land essentially. And I know were you born in this country not when I was born here yes but your family's been Cumbrian at home or in my family I started off from a

trilingual home actually and my family speaks from Gary in Texas like in the Russian and the English and the English when I started and by the time I got to school of course I had to forget that I spoke other languages being the aftermath of the Second World War Second World War and its not being it wasn't at that time being very acceptable but the children spoke other languages than English so I must say I'm sitting here absolutely intimidated my. Very life. We'll start with that partly because you know the language hang out on record. The funny thing is amazing to me as I was thinking when Frank got over here that I'm intimidated by this Mike that when I was 13 years old I had my own radio show and I'm

not sure what the difference this. Except I know more of my limitations at this point that I did when I was 13. This is I know you mentioned something about languages I wanted to ask you about and something I didn't say the time was like it's so funny what happens with language like I do some work in northern Maine where you sort of really French Canada but what happens from yours there is that you weren't allowed to speak French in school you were in love speak English at home. So you wrote you're not able to do even very well and feeling right. So I suppose you were not allowed to you were not supportive for any of the other three languages that you knew in school. Not In School in fact I would say the opposite. Yeah I think we were punished for it more than we are supported. But you know you were made fun of one form kind of thing very unfortunately because I totally lost it. Chance of Arc in Russian which we're not

tomato which is in my Hungary and is pitiful at the present time. There not very many and variants with whom to converse. This is not removing us from what is really sort of a it's an after you take a sample of the country of the time and since you moved so much it sort of was this consistent throughout the schools you changed to everywhere. Well it was most traumatic and I think first three grades because that's when I was having this difficulty with language that I became a behavior problem so I didn't talk too much. And by the third grade I wasn't I mean you know there wasn't a language problem because I didn't use any of the languages. It wasn't actually the one time I was in the seventh grade that I had a teacher that was really a great teacher she picked me up and decided that it was time that somebody did something about my language and spends an hour every day after school with me to help

me with English to help me with language in general. I think had it not been for her I would have probably been very well I was going to say. They dropped out of school and I got kicked out of school three times after that. But I have to say this reminds me of the thing about one of the big I want you to sort of go with your professor of education hard to come up with some great wishing well I suppose in some compartment in the history of it was an English teacher. In fact you know it wasn't that particular. What started happening as I would do things like move from one school that is in the middle of nowhere. You know essentially a country school going and then we moved to a city progress in school and there would be you know two years behind then we'd move to another country school and there I'd be two years

ahead you know that kind of thing. So I even managed in all this to get skipped a grade. It's like gotten into a school where I was in dance with everyone else. But in that particular school it was a country school and it was not just a man. She happened to be I think an excellent teacher in many in many ways because what she did was not simply TAKE ME TO SCHOOL IN BRUM language and to me she would do things like say why don't you go outside just write down everything you see. To describe the trees describe the woods describe this and then the other thing which essentially made it easier for me to start writing. And because of her in fact I really started writing a great deal and started writing stories had a great time writing stories about the class that you know this kind of thing which she supported and didn't tear apart because the comments were in the wrong places and this that and the other thing which were quite quickly quickly squelched by the time I got to high school during that period it was

very very and very useful. And so that was really a watershed in a sense to me English became a manageable more manageable going after that was important to actually have several sorts of questions but one would be that some sort of pursuit of dropping out of the you know the acting out like for instance one question was when you had to leave her. Was it when you were you reacting it was not finding anybody to replace her kind of thing. When did you meet. Well actually when I left her the next greatest the grade I skipped. And that's cool funny. Yeah I skipped a can when it went into place for your eyes you know. And no I don't I don't think it was because I was looking for a replacement. But what happened actually is when I skipped a grade and the reason I skipped it was

because I got a very funny situation in a math class which was the one thing I had excelled at. Basically because my father is their greatest education bless his heart is a very good mathematician and it taught me all kinds of shortcuts and I've gotten into a class with two relatively small very small town that morning and which turned out to be very traumatic also. But what occurred was that I went into the math class and essentially the teacher wanted me to do the math problems his way and I wanted to do them my way. And how it ever happened I will never know. But somehow either you put a problem on the board and said OK you do it and I'll do it and we'll see who gets the right answer first. Unfortunately I got the right answer which you know great.

Leave it to us. Not with your teachers so I skipped a grade and it was because of that incident. But then fortunate thing was that that was a small school and me also it was the teacher at the math courses in high school and so I was put back into algebra and I must say my love of math declined rapidly because then it was like would you do this problem. Of course I couldn't do it and so there are wonderful. So it was a great experience. And that led to my first being thrown out of school because I decided to sit in. And in math class because I thought it was unfair that we didn't have our own room because were you in the study hall of course. Yeah essentially in the study hall I had more people you know well I was embarrassed because I couldn't answer a question. So I led the first sit in the school and we all marched out there. Then I got marched.

My first exposure. You know those polls do not point to do this kind of thing but I mean it's interesting you were just one of them late 40s by no one you know or they disappear this summer. So it was a you know I mean that was the silent generation really was not sitting. Yeah no they weren't. So well you know until we like to follow that up and I'd like to just you know just sort of do a couple things one as you said about the radio show when you were 13 and so on in this movie great experience was you know actually what. That's a whole other ballgame. It's called My father wanted me to be a violinist and my mother couldn't stand the violin and we moved so much I couldn't play the piano so I ended up playing the accordion and I started teaching the accordion when I was well it didn't I didn't start teaching for years actually when I

was in the seventh grade experience. I won a talent shows essentially what it amounted to. I became an ember of a kids jazz group. And. Then I wandered downtown one day at the age of 13 dressed thinking that I looked like I was 17 and wandered into a music store and said Gee you needed an accordion teacher. And they just happened to need it right in front. And I got hired I don't know how or I mean you know I performed and it was adequate and I had 45 students within three months. For some reason or other and my own radio show. So that was the radio show and it had nothing to do with the teacher really and it was sort of fun it was funny because what I would do is my students would play and I would play games that I would talk for 15 minutes on how to teach music.

Which is rather embarrassing and disappointing but that's what I did. Just you mentioned moving live means he said a couple times and something about you mentioned number 30 and one things that came to him or at that point is a sense of like wonderful perforation or at least it's a slice of of schools that most people don't care and in terms of it's like I can songs do that you know they'd never want to see more and often stuck in a few. And this is really related to another question. I see too many questions and not enough time a lot but you know what I'd like to try to put together maybe that will work but one is you spoke another language at home and to some extent what I'm asking you is how much of that was a different cultural thing and the other thing is what how and how did that relate to the sort of why don't we call kaleidoscopic but this sort of panoramic view of American school life that you are a Christian.

Yeah really. The thing that comes to mind is probably the most painful time in my life which was that essentially the first year of high school. And that's when things really became obvious that I was from a different background. And on top of that by that time my father was in a bar working and we were in a very small town that had five bars and five churches. And that's about all. And it is very very English and it's not very English and so with bar and being English and being Catholic on top of everything else you know it made for a very difficult time in terms of it. Being with the kids it was obvious that I wasn't welcome

any situations and I think part of that too had to do you know in retrospect with the fact that I was going into a very closed situation that I had not felt that before as a child I could usually get into too many problems that aren't going to forming very especially if you are losing early sometimes you know there was a time in our culture and we were scared of everybody here so I suppose it's really been the whole thing I mean that's something no experience but right on through. I hope there was a time when did you miss college of any sort was a good changer. I must say that my entire educational experience I wouldn't exactly say was the happiest experience I read first through and I'm not sure it went for a lot of reasons I guess. While it's not a happening college is that my for my parents being very

foreign. My father and I think we're very close to the age of 12 at which point it became very apparent that I was a girl and even though we had you know he had always tried to stressed education before that time line which he had had an education as most foreign people. Education is the way to progress in this country etc.. When 12 came up that ended it was sort of an if I was my mother's problem that point and she of course thought I should get married and I really had practically no encouragement neither in terms of school high school nor in terms of my family to go on to college and the only reason I went to college was because I didn't want to get married my mother had found me a husband. And the only way I could think of getting out of it was going to school and fortunately I had been earning my own money because

I had been playing and I had radiation on the list and which was necessary because we were quite poor and so I couldn't have gone any other way. And I knew nothing about college just literally nothing I mean you know what somebody said Harvard and I said What's that. So you know my problem was the find the nearest college and it happened to be an all girls catholic college that I went to which was fine except that at that period of time I was going through a great do. What happened is I went to that college and felt very much out of it in terms of the fact that I wasn't from the same class that most of the women that were there were from you know the same cultural background. On top of everything else I was at this point finding Bertrand Russell and a few other people that were on the index.

So I quickly almost got thrown out of college too because I was going to happen. Everything else was a rather good tip for growth for you. So that was an extremely pleasant experience for me but some of your maybe because of the recent news occasionally you decided it was because you so you want to do something about it or feel that it is often the first thank you for my messages I said I managed to go on to school because I wanted to get out of getting married. I went into music and that became traumatic also because I didn't play a classical instrument and play accordion and so it was like You shouldn't play the inviting yet you have to do it you have to learn the piano you know I had to play the accordion because I didn't play accordion I couldn't go to school because that's how I was earning my living you know. And we had a few things like you know ours were at seven o'clock and so I convinced the janitor of the building that he really had to leave me out on Wednesdays and Friday

nights because I had to play you because if I didn't play in you know the local bars until I could earn enough money to stay in school. So he was very kind he would see me out let me in the dormitory and but I was having this terrible problem with music because I really love music up to that point and I was really becoming very sour on it essentially because. You know I liked the theory of things like that but I was being forced into the piano and I was forced with the Fed and faced with the fact that I had to make a living and I didn't I really didn't want to you know stay on the road essentially like the drummer I went on the road. And so I decided that I would teach and so I took music and an education got out of school quite accidentally started teaching did some volunteer work

with delinquent juvenile delinquent which I love. There was this movement what is this. By this time is in Columbus Ohio. And I really became fascinated with that and they asked me if I would like to teach music and become a music therapist and I said yes not knowing what a music therapist was but figuring out I could learn it. So I took that job and through that became interested in psychology. And that's how I got into going back to school which further became complicated because I then went over to Ohio State and said gee I'd like to get into psychology and I said but with your undergraduate courses you can't because you have to you know make up psychology courses essentially which was another year and I couldn't afford to do that. So I found myself old senile. Bless his heart. Professor in music and I entered the Graduate School of Music and had him sign all my cards which were psychology courses and when I

told him I was interested in the psychology of music and I'm going through this whole thing and he said. Isn't that wonderful. And so what I would do is I'd sort of rush in and I'd say oh I don't have much time could you sign my cards and he'd sign my cards which were all psych courses and you know I go back out and go to psych classes and then I finished 45 hours of Psych which was needed for a masters and went to psychology and said Hey I remember I'd like to degree. College even my music. And at that point they couldn't do anything besides enjoy Petzold courses with flying colors. That I had to psych. While the educational. Just. Goes for lawyer really oh you know what. What a struggle. Well I only remember him saying when he when he applied for the program he was in

history it's just a dream history. People in our in the psychology is going to know. Boring Boring was there and I want him and so you know I really don't think this is at all appropriate that you should do it and you don't have a background. But I can't find anything in there to prevent it so if you insist on coming you you know it just reminds you that it's not always the best people in your force their way. Of thinking. You know you really screw up. Sure. The general educational part of this. Yes but you know what they are looking out for today. I really hope that.

Any such thing you think you will treat people six and seven eight nine 10 year old people are more visual basis. You know you will have to try to get people like pace in person. I hope so. I think you know when I when I think about it and think about the education system in total I get very despairing when I think about individual teachers with my poor man. I've been doing a Consider amount of teacher training and have been in a lot of schools and things like that. Then I have a lot of hope because I actually met so many really creative young teachers that are young and old teachers that really do

consider the individual child. But I think the system itself I mean you know the system has it terrible. I cannot explain it. I thought by the way for several years also I didn't just jump in and took a Master's I taught for five years I taught elementary and emotionally disturbed kids to all kinds of handicapped kids and high schools and. What I found and I think what teachers feel to some extent is a tremendous lack of respect for the teachers for the people that we put in to work with our children. But the system as a whole has you are treated as though you are irresponsible. I mean you have to be in a certain time you have to leave it at a certain time. It's study playa and it is just all sorts of things that that makes. I think teachers weary and teachers transferring it to the children the same kind of treatment they get.

And I don't I'm not sure how we change the system exactly but I think it's more of the you know the system that influences the teachers negatively. Very much but then flows over to the kids. But individual sort of that's a different story. I've been doing obviously with this kind of background one would expect that my research is geared toward looking at teachers and kids things like that. Just who is that exactly. And I'm presently working on a large one that's going to be a book on what I call behavioral assets for kids where what I'm trying to do is to find we've looked at ethnic groups you know kids with Father absence from lower class kids. Kids in economically deprived situations might have to try to pull out those characteristics about those kids that are really strengthened by the fact that they've had to live through adverse kinds of conditions

that they have a lot of frustration tolerance that they're able to persist in things that they have a lot of creativity. And what I'm trying to focus on and we found this when we found these kinds of differences is that we can use those things and hopefully you know pass them along that look we're not looking at kids. And in many ways that we can find you know assets in all kids and that that's the way we should proceed. It's over time. If I didn't think there was hope although it think it's a long tunnel I wouldn't be in the business. What are you doing with your. You know I'm a lazy person.

Can you do that when you really. Do want realness. If you can you say it's you guys that until they come to pro big you know person I mean any situation I sort of go away and I'm scared to death but it's sort of like well you can't do anything with driving you know. You know better off sitting here looking at it from my eyes we're going to do something about it. I don't know I think really a lot of my own particular strength for that matter comes from my parents who really are just fantastically wonderful people. They really are that pretty much let me do a lot of things and I always stressed. Try anything and do the best you can with and really

support it in anything I ever did and you know never never pushed. I shouldn't say that because they really want me to go to school so that they can let me go to college after they got through the first four years they are not my father my mother particularly realized it was hopeless that I was going to go through with it anyway. I don't know I wish I could answer that. I thought of when I wanted to tell someone you should not question them also. Are you trying to me and I was wondering if you could. Not no disaster if you didn't work either I mean it was in the hope that maybe that's the most important thing. Yeah I mean they never made any big thing about failure. I mean if I ever failed in anything it was always taken as well so you know. So you try something else so you do something else so you try again.

I mean I've never met with oh this is disastrous or what will people think of us kind of thing and that probably has a lot to do with their being pointed to the extent that and traveling a lot that if you sat down and thought about what everybody thought about you all the time you would go nowhere and do nothing kind of thing. So it's built in the US. While. I would say that his partner is set for the seventh grade teacher I can name any teacher. Believe it or not. Through school that I would say except when I got into graduate school. Actually Jerry Kagan will be here next year. Who is the person that was really responsible for my going back for my doctorate and that was quite accidental because I got my

master's and then had left I mean it hadn't dreamed about going on for my doctorate at all. I got my masters at night and just you know the thought of a doctorate never crossed my mind. And I had heard him at a conference. And what he was talking about interest me and I essentially did a study and took the results to him and he got all excited about it and said oh you should go back to school and I thought I would go back to school. Yes not only that I was really scared. I mean I really really didn't I couldn't quite figure out how I got into masters at this point placing a doctor it seemed like my God you're kidding. And he kept saying oh you know they should go back and so he said why don't you go save by getting back in. And he posed the question to me and I was going to see him again and I felt so embarrassed about saying going back to him and saying I didn't do anything about it that I thought well I'd better do something about it

to extend to the rest of my educational life and the funny way that it happened what I did is I put together all I got what I wanted to do all of two to three years requirements into one year which was double the load and I outlined a proposal for a dissertation and I walked into George Thompson's office who was the other person that happened to be very influential of the house state and said Gee you really want me back in the psychology department don't you and you want me so badly that you'll let me do this much and I'm sure you'd say no it was an idiotic plan you know who's going to do a dissertation and you know you all you're working one year and he said OK. And so I sat there and I thought well if he says OK you know I'll do it. And the thing was that. I'm going to such a ridiculous story but it's true. Yeah. Thing was I think what he

thought is that I get started and then realize that I should you know trap it down and I figured if I was going to do it it was going to be one year because I couldn't take it any longer than one year. So I did it in one year I did all my coursework Brandreth dissipation and then the next year I started working and wrote my dissertation technical things that within reason so I went back to Jerry and said oh yeah i just. Got into all of this thing. But he did provide the enthusiasm actually for the research and provided quite a stimulus for me to get interested in doing research. You know let me you know something because it's funny. It's like it's a way of getting into the women's issue a little bit because it's interesting at this point it seems to me like I'm you know I'm doing this condensed achievement really I mean it's just pulling me over OK. And if you look at the same time you're saying it was sort of smiling suddenly. I wonder what the question would be

something like this. How in the world did you do it. It's sort of the general rule of. The sort of quarter. Did you run into grief you know with this kind of concentration. Real character motivation. Did you find that you had to pretend to know so much. Well there it was a funny funny motivation during exam when I went to the doctor that the going for the year was it was not only oh I'm going to do it kind of thing. But if I don't get anywhere with this later which I might not because it was very clear all around me I saw all my professors had wifes who had doctorates who were running the labs research experiments and everything and I said oh look at that but I

really don't want to get a doctorate to do that yet. And so the question was you know what's going to be open to me. And part of it was I don't want to spend any more than a year doing bad if I'm not going to have any alternatives when I get out. And I was clearly told you know many times you know we really don't want women. In this department there weren't that many women there. Many times I was greeted with you're too pretty to be in graduate school or something like that or why are you here why don't you go do something else where you don't really want to be here and you know this kind of thing. But you know you sort of tune all that out and think well and just go on my merry way and if I get through fine. But it's had the advantages that I I had my other you know first I could teach and I taught a lot of kinds of classes by this time so I could always teach the target I teach disturbed I teach delinquents are to play music which I did on weekends anyway so you know I had two or three options and I figured well if the doctor doesn't work I

could do something else. But I wasn't willing to waste you know four years and become that good behind the thing yeah. So I was going to do it in a year. The thing is that you know I really. So there was that side of me saying I don't get really involved in it. But then there was another side of me that they say gee it's fun you know. And I was I like the research I really enjoyed it and I really do enjoy it. So you know when I did get out I met with a lot of problems of pressure in terms of getting a job when it was a you know this would have been 60 70 and I would do things like I'd interview for a job and in a psychology department and they'd say well we really don't have an opening however we do need a person in child development and clinical in the home economics department or the Education Department. And essentially as a

psychology graduate I was having an awful time with this whole thing like you know what do you mean. Home economics you know this was a time of it was this time some expansion in universities and it wasn't just wasn't it was in the cutbacks and so and you know this time you know in fact it's rather amusing that several of us wrote offered jobs at the same time quite accidentally. One of them there was an Indian student myself on them. White male student and a black male student. And the Indian student in the white male have applied for the same job. And what happened is the white male got a letter back saying Come up for an interview and the Indian student got a lot of bricks and filled the job like the same time. So we wrote up several letters all together just to say what would happen. And essentially the pattern held that I think we were at about five places

and all of us with the exception of the white male students were told that the job was filled. So there were a few problems with MySpace pages of movies. It's pretty personal. But you go someplace warm North Dakota North Dakota and I was just kidding right. I'm not kidding. North Dakota is never said but this is the place were so women wrote about trying to make a big change in the school systems. Did we did you know no you know it's after that was 69 or something that I was very near. And it was it was a very that experience it was a psych department it was a kind of department where there were three of us this is this was in the Fargo university not the not the Grand Forks the Grand Forks was the sister university it was larger and

as I said there were three of us in big departments that we got to teach anything we wanted and everything was a lot of fun but I was going stir crazy it is really in the middle of nowhere that place like. You go into Minneapolis and it's like you're getting New York City you know. So I really tried to get out and about. Of course. More self-control were also there also that this is

where it all balances the where you just go. I prefer to take him unfit for duty to frankly at that sort of a personal bias I could never understand what the lesson plan was for you know they never corresponded to what I was doing in the classroom when I had to write them anyway. Just spent probably making a statement of the next thing you know you get very discouraged teaching and people would come into the classroom to rate you. You know you're teaching here and you think your bulletin boards were raided and whether there was order in the classroom nobody could care less what you were teaching. Yeah I know I'm hoping that that's not going on today I mean I don't go out and observe that type of thing you know how teachers are rated. If they still lie I know they still are. But it just seemed that you know there are other reliable measures of observing teachers interacting with children and

knowing that they are teaching children that they are good teachers. Other than having to read their lesson plans and what have you this sort of school. What reason for your for one. Yeah I don't know how we get around that. A lesson plan can lock you in when it's not necessary. There are many books for example I do. For example I train teachers I train in behavior modification. I think behavior modification is an extremely useful means of working with children and I became very familiar with

the techniques through working with retarded children. In this you collect data essentially you monitor yourself to figure out if in fact you are teaching a child something that doesn't have to be as cumbersome as a lesson plan. But you are planning. You can have charts and children can do do them themselves. This type of thing and that I think provides good measures besides was just kids that are happy I mean if you walk in a classroom you see kids smiling and they're enjoying the learning situation and things like that. It's a very important kind of thing that we don't look at when you walk in and see a bunch of kids to let you know that you know. And certain kinds of things you know you think about changing the schools and you wonder why. Why do we keep teachers with that at the same level for example. You know if you've taught fourth grade for 10 years and you're teaching you know multiplication again you know how can you how can you get over to kids.

This is great fun. You know it's a you've got to go home and mortification to it was you know thinking it was going to take another three weeks before we get through the fours. This guy is the you know why don't we move people around. Why keep them with the same children. You know some of the virtues I think of open classroom you know the sort of the mobile movement the this constant change to keep things alive to keep teachers alive and kids alive. We focus a lot on the kids and we don't focus on the needs of the teachers at times you know what do they need to stay alive in those situations and to enjoy and to to learn you know because they have to you know those needs have to be met for them too. I found it very depressing that I left education you know because when I went into it meaning teaching in like elementary school I went in I was enthusiastic. Great kids and all this and you know popped in with my jeans on the first day and went home within five minutes to put my clothes on you know because you know you don't do that. Things have changed

but. I want to play on the floor with the kids you know with nylons on and you know every day and you know running a pair of stockings or you know is end by the end of the year it was like I don't want to be there you know it wasn't fun for me and I know it wasn't fun for the kids and I think a lot of you know a lot of teachers have that feeling and I think it's because of the system not taking into consideration the needs. Or raising ministration part of it was in the room. There's a committee to study the school. Education experience differently. Yes trying to learn. There are six girls were pressed

against the war. There was no reason for. And she comes to the police force. In the same room for her. Personal. Life. It's discouraging to hear. OK well on here I like to tell you maybe it's too soon to sort of the anxiety that people have of beginning I sense these days a little bit more but it's in response on a vacation or what. Or you know it's a conservative trend in the country I don't know. But

there is a lot of anxiety on the parents about my kids getting anything out of the police state business. I connect with and I wonder if you're going to say something I want you to. I'm just going to say that I I guess the position that I take particularly when I'm training teachers and again you know behavior man sounds contrary to some of the stuff I'm saying you know but I think the reason I like it is because if you look at it properly I think it's terribly misused it's an extremely misused technique but what it essentially is saying that you focus on the positive that it's reinforcement and that you start with where the kid is with where the kid is and you move with him at his rate and you look at the positive and we do things like I was simply saying you know go back to your classrooms and just you know take a check count all the positive things you say every day and I have to say hard not to think.

Because we don't we just don't do that I mean we're much more focused on controls but our society is too. I mean we don't do things like give. We don't give you a reduction in insurance rates for example if you drive carefully and well but your insurance goes up if you have an accident. I mean you know we look all only at the negative. I mean maybe if we start reinforcing the positive in your rates would go down because you don't have you know accidents because you drive carefully etc. more people would do that. You know we focus on the negative and in many cases I mean our society is a very controlled negative kind of thing in terms of law enforcement and what have you that it carries over to the classroom. And it just is so silly because we end up essentially. Punishing things that we supposedly value we punish learning. We do things like say Okay now if you're quiet and do the next

three problems you can go out. But if you're noisy you have to do for more problems essentially you're saying as a punishment you have to do your best material. Well but we're trying to. But really we believe that you should love to do arithmetic. Why are we using it as a punishment. Why are we telling the kids that in fact this is terrible stuff. It's work. You know it's terrible and we do that all through school. What in fact we supposedly are teaching the love of learning we're teaching it to hate learning. Don't be curious you know don't be unique. Conform. Shut up. You don't like this and you'll get out and that's it. So saying that you know essentially we're not but we're defeating our purpose. You know sometimes I think you know we're just like kids alone and forget and to get over the way we'd be better off really but I mean it's very discouraging when you think about it in those terms. That's

right. Real. Problem here is simple. In spite of school the site is for.

OK now I just finished another study with teacher child interaction communication patterns where when I'm trying it's not totally analyzed but there are some very discouraging results coming up right now where what I was looking at was children a child and the teacher communicating but not being able to see each other to complete the task to the task completion is dependent on how they talk to each other and then looking at what these patterns were who took the lead to the teacher take you know essentially tell the kid what to do. I was concerned with whether or not she would focus in on where he was there were certain considerations that would have to be made in terms of the task. If the teacher really understood what the child was doing meant she'd have to know whether he knew certain things and would have to ask those things if she really wanted him to do the task. And what some of the initial results look like is that the kids

do the best for the teams that do that. The teacher in charge it doesn't this is essentially dependent on the teacher. I mean excuse me on the child that if the child takes the initiative to say I don't understand you or what's bad what do you mean. Or I've got this thing is that this or you know that kind of thing. Then they do extremely well. If the child is passive and you know essentially lets the teacher take the lead then they do very poorly. That is rather discouraging kind of thing because a lot of kids just are not you know aggressive in a classroom and won't say something and a lot of teachers won't you know won't sanction that kind of behavior to reinforce that kind of behavior. And you can sometimes to you know 30 kids in a classroom when you you were trying to get through a lesson plan that you have been told that you are a curriculum that you have been told that you must get through it becomes very difficult and you're torn.

If we could look at the child and where he sat with him and help him that would be a different story but we do things in such a normative kind you know like a third grader should do this so that mother and father would be very upset if Johnny isn't in the third grade doing this instead of maybe focusing in if you have a kid that's really you know his interests his motivations and everything else are in there on man then let him go and follow it through. And by that I don't mean you know the total laissez faire permissive kind of thing. I do mean structure with that. But still coming in with where the kid is you know from my city school houses that we that would take three hours

at least. Yeah we have set up programs not not here in Boston but we've helped to set them up let's put it that way were we worked with teachers and. Right right right. People. Give you some consultants names OK. But only a

child. But as I said up until 12 it was pretty much I can pretty much do what I wanted and I mean you know the great courses the name The night is the love of sports. But at the age of 12 I send it to my mother and and I assure you in good foreign home a woman's role is in the house in the kitchen and you soon learn to cook extremely well and said no there was no female role. Traditional heroes something like for you OK here you are and the way the insecurity that I don't think that I want to ask about that is that I don't know but you seem to be like on the edge of it all the time like it was a story

about a good banter but the thing about your son he spoke with a section of your family and so on. Was was that a struggle your being so do I mean the question is how did you as a family work out. You're being completely contrary to what was expected in a sense and yet did you stay together as a family. Most of my life constantly. Really. OK. In fact this kicked out of the house for one solid year over this whole thing about my proposed husband which was arranged and after that I think she said it gave up the battle and said Well you know fishy stories say that you've got your own mind and you're never going to change you know bubba.

So maybe it was reinforcing in one respect it but my father just kept out of it. I mean he didn't say anything and he would for example during that year he'd call me one know how I was this kind of thing let me know when the air was clear enough to come home again. But that was age 16. So you didn't break off completely you know now. I mean after that you know I sort of came back and she took the course of oh well I can do anything with you anyway so I won't try. We've had a great relationship ever since. I mean most of us because I've been you know away from her. And so when I do go back there for a short period of time. We just have a good time together. Very probable. Yeah I would say up to about 12. You know how much I mean how do you know what this is first person.

Probably quite a bit I think we moved every year at least every year and we lived on a farm and one of those years and I was very much with my typo's with my father a lot like on the farm and was with him all the time in the fields and what have you. Very very close close with him then and I suppose you know that was very important. I was about three I guess. Time like this is your life. Question how short a pressure situation

can. Work for your. Type. There. It is. It's very hard to try and pull out I think one factor is that I'm sure if anybody faced with trying to study human behavior it's so multifaceted because very difficult to get around it. It's sort of single cause I mean I'm sure that a great deal of

independence however that the child is given the same responsibilities the freedom of movement during the early years there's certainly I think contributes to to one's developing an essentially independent kind of behavior. Let me specify the more clearly I think in my case it it it happened because I did have a lot of freedom of movement. I was never stuck in many cases see we lived in particularly during that that time of my life we would live in areas that were foreign. If we were in a city and that would mean that you know maybe for two or three blocks it was you know Hungary and polish Czech kind of neighborhood. And there was never any restrictions I mean you know everybody knew you and you sort of bounced down the street and you went to the store and you did things and you took care of other kids you know but all

sorts of things a lot of freedom of movement that I think many of our children don't have the advantage of to them. I mean can you imagine loving a child you know wonder down the some of our Boston streets. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. The survivor. Of this and connect make a connection with what you were saying about your throat was cool it didn't work out and several other things just like the same kind of thing.

Yeah. We really. Didn't want to do the stuff we're going to do. Yeah but I mean maybe the answer to this is really what you've been saying with just the freedom has this kind of momentum of its own but it was coming back to oh I guess the question is Where does the ambition come from that. Because I guess that I want to relate it to something else and it's as they say Laurence Olivier's always very nervous before a performance and that frequently less good actors are not so much. And something I mean you've covered a lot on being nervous and being in situations where the risk was high for you in a sense and yet that those are the situations you chose. So the question is it's related to that but given that kind of it's like like being a racing car driver selling it and you know it's

like a cheap motivation OK. I mean it's those kinds of. And I'm wondering. Where the where the support or where the ambitions came from. I think one thing is that I really like. I love what I do and it's hard to see what I mean you know like I do research for yeah research and teaching. Although I panic every time I have a class. But I enjoy it I mean I really enjoy it it's sort of like puzzles you know. You know finding answers to questions and finding questions and it's just it's really fun. It's just simple fun it's really not like I think you have

it. It's not you know there are nice things that go along with it. I mean you know there are there are certain aspects of status and your money in the some of the other things. But I really think that that being lowered I would still pursue what I'm doing because I enjoy doing it. I have another there's another person that was very influential in my life and I think some of this came from because my father being extremely influential in many respects was also as I said not an educated man. And I think certainly fostered you know things like mathematical ability and doing things and what have you. But what happened is when I was about 15 I met an artist who turned out to be for me an extremely influential person

and I wasn't 15 because I'd started college by 16. And what he did and this happened because I was playing one evening in a bar where he happened to be drinking and we started talking and I went over to his house on Saturday and he was one of these people that read and read and read his books all over and just never seen a place like this. This coincided with my starting in a college in my saying you know all of a sudden Bertrand Russell and all these people that I should have been reading came into existence a lot of it had to do with Burkhardt and we would do things like he you know he decided to say Gee have you read such and such and such and so this whole new world opened up and it was great fun. And I and Joy did in measure play and Emerson is the kind of person. This is Emerson Burke out of many of you are in the art area.

It was a kind of person where he did exactly what he wanted to do because he enjoyed it and liked to and I think I picked up a lot of that spirit from him which is sort of oh if you want to study this that's what you study and that's fun and it's enjoyable and and he really did have the love of learning that was so absent in any part of school that I ever saw and it helped it really get him. So we discussed books hours on end you know when we have you know we both read two books and then we come back and talk about it and we paint and walk and talk with him and help. And so he sort of became this person that is very important to me actually all the way up until a couple years ago when he died. I miss him greatly. He's one of the few people in the that I know that really really love living and love learning and people and things and that was nice.

Cookbook Around here couldn't very well go through you know that particular juxtaposition right. Other things made you go ahead of that. Back to my term. So I think you bring us back to the big question right. You're also going to. Try to get an education. Was this low desire for self-confidence. That's a funny thing because really let them be the last word I'd use to carry.

It's really a much more Contra thing to I was panic stricken to come here this evening but you didn't say you know what but you know you do it in the end what you describe. It's been a while. I know. But each of those things was characterized by like that. I mean you know when you say you picked up something about being alone you know created perhaps. Need to go I mean and individuality. But I felt very alone. I mean I can honestly say all the way through school I never particularly through grade school in high school did I ever feel that I belonged ever. I mean I you know I mean to say I was in and out and in and out and in and out. And I had no brothers and sisters and you know I can really distinctly remember like going into a school and systematically working out how I was going to get into the groups. I mean literally you know spending two weeks you know figuring out who was what

who was the teacher's pet who was and what was the group that you know did this together and all that you know analyzing the whole situation before I ever said anything or at all came out in the situation or what have you. And then even after that never really feeling that I belonged to you know so having a you know a uniqueness almost in terms of this my invite you know my own situation you know on top of everything else and probably at times wishing very much that I wasn't unique. In retrospect maybe very thankful that I was. But it was it was long. It was not easy. I mean a lot of insecurity a lot of very little self-confidence in many cases. And. I don't know maybe it's I sometimes we try to help too hard. Kids I think.

That's one thing that I mean I know that I was supported I was never or more more I was never caught with having failed I mean you know that was never an issue in my household but it was sort of like if that's what you want to do you do it but I can't help you. And that was very much the case with school. I mean they couldn't you know I can't help you with your work you know you come home with that there's nothing I can do. You know with the exception of something like mathematics which turned out to be traumatic you know the help wasn't what the school wanted but you know so. So you have to go it alone and sometimes it is maybe that delicate balance of knowing when to help them and to let the child grow. Yes you did You don't simply go it alone. I mean you choose a difficult path as well I mean for instance just take one more so in examples I suppose that

deciding to go to graduate school. How many people and being nervous I'm sure you were terribly nervous. No but how many people responded that nervousness but a known tremendous concentration of of effort known that that's the other part and so it would be so easy just to be not to go or so in order to do it in 12 years like a lot of you know it well. So there's a you know there's a determination so I don't think we really understand either. It's interesting and it's funny because when you think back and you think you know being close to having gone through that. It was amazing you know I think it could have been a lot easier but I don't know what would have happened if it were not so funny. I don't maybe I'm lying or Sonia but I it seems to you don't want it to be easier. So you know I mean. To my you you choose. One woman. You know. That

situation I think even you know the question. I'm sure it wasn't question because for instance or. At least I am. 166 you're talking about 65. Well the average time for that kind of degree in years was six or seven years. So it's really we're prolonging educational education. But some allies really have no idea what you what you want to do. Child. Oh yeah I'm sure they're there.

Oh yeah. That's probably right.

I suppose it contributes in some way or I think it's all in the show. Right I mean you know it's like I mean if you had your students now assigned to go and try to figure out what the dynamics of the group are and when you did that I was saying about something about getting was quite a ways back we're talking about behavioral assets and and I want to like to relate that to the business about anxiety pressure to have everything maybe not lesson plan but to have make sure kids learn enough to get to well in college and that kind of thing. The question is something like is there is there not more freedom to work with people that people have given up on in a sense. Like OK these are retarded people these are you know whatever whatever whatever and therefore doesn't matter if they're free because they're not going to make it anyway. Do you know you experience that kind of thing or. Yeah to a great extent. For example with when behavior I mean

behavior modification for example got started with retarded kids because essentially to care what people had to or retarded kids. And which is a shame that it should in fact be more monitored. That's another kind of problem. Where are the children that need the most in terms of an education. Frequently don't get it. It's particularly true in terms of target children. Yeah I'm not sure I could answer that question totally I'd say it was not a well first question it's something like there's a an inverse relationship between freedom and real business like you know like if you're going to if you want to get into a good college and do well and so on then it's important to be punished and to have homework and you know stuff like that. If you're going to fail anyway then it's OK to have freedom and individual and you know and learning and all that good stuff but there somehow it doesn't work. It begins to fade as anxieties grow about success

prospects. Willingness to allow freedom and experimentation and joy and all that kind of thing declines of the moment. It's interesting that I just consider it depends to a great extent on how you define freedom and this comes in in terms of pretty sample behavior model where you have to say you know like what is this you're controlling your kids environment you know tremendously and the way I always conceptualize it and which is interesting because you've just said something that I wouldn't characterize this as. Well let me tell you what I characterize as freedom which is the which is many alternatives and that if you teach a child something for example if you take a retarded child. And he can only do one thing in a room which is to scream and tear the room apart. He essentially not free although some people would look at that and say well you know he's free to do what he wants. Well he doesn't have any other choice. He can't do anything else. So if you can give him another alternative to walk in and sit down

they have two choices you tear them apart or can walk in and sit down. If you can give him a third choice you know say that teaching is essential it should be giving children many choices to do many things in this situation and that essentially requires discipline and training. In other words you know the child has to be helped to gain discipline to do a variety of things. And some of the most disciplined people I know who talk in one on one hand I sort of said Emerson did what he wanted to you know when he also was one of the most disciplined people I've ever met and he's going to do a painting he painted it in an extremely disciplined manner and most artists are extremely disciplined in what they're doing. So that. Discipline and freedom are really not at opposite ends of the continuum. The discipline of yourself really essentially can broaden your scope of freedom. Freedom to me means much more. You know how many alternatives which is funny because now when I think about the fact that that's how I talk

about it I realized how it relates to my own life and I'm saying you know and I can do this this and this if this doesn't work. Which is interesting. But when and then too when you said well you know so you keep saying when you must do this and the next step up is this the next step up is this. And then I think essentially it does cause a lot of anxiety because what happens if you fail at that next step and you know there's nothing else there. And again this is you know talk about education and I was deciding why you know why do we not. Encourage people to freak out to start with. But my my so stands it's boxes It's called You know we have a psychology of infancy childhood of adolescence of old age and there's nothing in the middle. I think I talk to about this. And yet that's where a lot of people are and we don't encourage people to go back to school to change professions to change jobs. Why can't you at the age of 35 40

happen to really all of a sudden discover that what you really want to do all your life would be an artist. Why can't you do that I mean why don't we support those kinds of things you know instead of saying no you're up here on this rung from here and the next step has to be up here because you can't go this way or you can't go down here and start again and it's terrible. It's really discouraging. And that limits freedom. I mean again it's you know our whole structure what we support in society is that narrow kind of thing and the continual building of anxiety because you may not make it to the next step. I guess the kind of thing I hear is like if you give a child a choice between the multiplication table or whatever is going to prepare him for the college board so the graduate records or whatever you know those things give a choice between that and something else that something else will be so seductive and so close and somehow it will unfit him for real life. I mean you hear that kind of things on the court appearance no. And

you know it's fun with Again groups that are not likely to be successful behavioral assets is fine you know cultivate the garden whatever anything but you are going to have people do well on the college boards. Don't let them see Paris or whatever you know don't let this guy get to keep the farm you know. Thanks again because we make it a punishment and if we wouldn't make it a punishment make it something that was fun. Maybe they would. I mean it's amazing you know with the retarded children with whom we work for example. I mean you come in and they're just having a grand old time learning arithmetic Um yeah. Whereas you know they're normal the normal classmates you know are hating it and yeah I mean it's amazing if you just make something fun how much enjoyment they get out of. For example Bruce Baker at Harvard runs a summer camp and I go up and teach This is Camp Freedom A little plug and it's a camp for retarded and disturbed children in New Hampshire. Now the camp is

run on a behavior mind model but the entire day is programmed in terms of learning so that the kids go to classes all day long and go to Reading into everything to take a class or matching colors class or wherever they happen to be you know. But they have classes all that they love. But here in our camp there is I mean they could go swimming or they could play with the rabbits or all sorts of things and they don't choose to go swimming instead of breeding I mean because reading is just as much fun as swimming is. They get the same kinds of rewards for going to reading as they do for going to swimming or playing with the rabbits are going now I mean if it works you know all you have to do is change the value of it and if you change it the kids will accept it because actually it is fun I mean you know if there's nothing negative about it we make it negative. When I was in such a

large group. You know what you can but there's no way to get people who are. 40 years older so that model for her for those years to do so. Right before

backing would be nice for examples of universities and Game support and various places gave support. You know now that was it you got a year sabbatical to do what you wanted and if you decide to do something else fine but that then a lot of it has to do with it. You just can't have children you have no car payments this that and the other thing you can do at night. I think we should support that. You know as a country we should support it and much rather support that and some of the things I was supporting with my dad. I just know that right. Everybody I mean I really I mean to change your base.

Can you just how hard drive. Let's keep going back to this structure. Most of this is that high five or six or whatever 16 wires whether you go to school with teachers who are fighting against this or

not at that particular you know. I'm working in situations where we're trying to create. Can't wait. What we may not be right that's what we're. All part of that is whether or not the child coming into a structure that he has to meet or whether you're meeting the kid where he's at. You know yes our system is set up to a great extent that's true. He says that if he comes into third grade but he's not really one of them can

think exactly the word I want that he's really not. And I should say not ready for the third grade that his interests are not quite within what the curriculum says he should do. Oh yeah then you have a problem. But I would think I would hope that we could fit around the kids rather than the kid into our system. If somehow we could start with where the kid was at UCSF or so. No but I see individual teachers doing it. There are individual tickles. Well I was as I must say I think in my childhood. I think if it's a child. Yeah I at least supported by the child you know and that's that's a good feeling. You know I'm very serious.

I don't think that kind of thing would like support. I think it takes a lot of work and take I think it takes a very creative and committed teacher and we have them. But it's hard for them. When I say it support it or not support let me say that I don't think the structure supports the teachers at all for anything. It's a really doesn't matter. I mean you know I don't think they'd not support them for that per se and the only thing I think that a teacher would get hit over the head for was doing something like having total bed love for you know. Corporal punishment or you know what have you but if you know the kids don't go outside over her door you know she doesn't come in looking too weird or what have you most people won't know that she's that I mean you know but I can't get excited unless somebody is is really way behind in some sort of learning and parents are screaming about that. If you meet the kid where he's at he's bound to learn something and if you're clever enough you can show the parent what he's learning you know

and that should help the parent I mean a parent could say well he's not learning enough. But you can I think work with that I think that's that's a workable situation for those who. Work on it. Can you show me a traditional school. Teaching you Rose different sort of delusions. Your brain just a. Holes. Right. All. Those. Parents you know 40 days they were in two different areas. Actually.

You're just three. Days towards the end and I did allow some time. I saw you and I want to know something about. It just occurred to me when you were doing turn theories to say that the people who changed people of people who share time and space for them and we're talking about he was talking of prisoners and you know that people change prisoners of other prisoners and those people who spent time with her. I was thinking for all our talk about school boards and consulting or whatever changing that when you were talking about the teacher getting rewarded by the kids in a way that I sing course there they are the people who spend time together. The question is something like this if if positive reinforcement is something that well reinforces behavior I should I should think that there almost be a natural tendency for teachers seeing that pleasure the

key to good to get try to do that more and yet doesn't seem to work out that way. What is the problem with that. There may be other factors that are less rewarding that are more salient in the situation that they face but it's not an easy you know it's not as simple as our kind of parenting advice must be mutual too alike you know. Just as you as kids come in you have are the teachers expectations of us. Certainly kids hear about teachers so I suppose if you get off on the wrong thing you can get trapped for 10 years in the fourth grade and really never have enough with positive experiences to tempt you out of that trap is right that you can get sort of into a negative reinforcement thing and. You know tremendously influential I think you know that kids are and even it isn't really recognized so I was actually kids are already talking about the school board you know with the school board isn't there.

It's not quite space that's right. So again if you would like to stop here for the next state the obstacles away. If you take the powerful you know you know that there is a potential follower choco also constraints in prisons and your prisoners learn a great deal from each other. No more school.

Just walking in. I would need time to evaluate you. It's an interesting question I'd want to be in the classroom. I'm going to spend a considerable amount of time in the classroom. I think the one thing I would be curious about is whether the teacher did know over kids and I'd buy that I don't need their names and their backgrounds. But whether she knew whether or not Jimmy knew his right from his life that green from red from down and things that were not in the curriculum per se. And what his habits were during the day you know were there times of the day that Jimi had to move

around doors or you know what really. Where was she in terms of her knowledge of those kids. And did she really like him and watch or interact with them and communicate with them play with them that kind of thing. I go totally I couldn't care less about scores one and she could create something that the child wanted to do something which she created enough to help him do it. I would totally base it on looking at the child. Teacher Would I could care less what her scores were or what ever thank you. If she was honest enough to say I think that is a very good sign. She could say this. Look I just can't get along with this child. It's really a problem. Maybe I could if I worked hard enough. But it's attracting my attention from the other kids in the classroom. You know it's too much time to put this child

in terms of the other kids you know maybe someone else. The birth of the child. And I I think I mean I think we should do that more. I mean there's just some kids that are hard to work with. For some people and yet other kids and some people can work with I know kids that I like to work with some people wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. You know they're climbing all over the ceiling. And yet you know really passive child was difficult for me to work with and for other people it's extremely different. That should be considered. But I think only other nonsense in terms of you know the other stuff in terms of evaluating is nonsense. I mean if in fact your goal is to find out how a teacher works with the child you know if your goal is to find out how she does on the test and something else but whether that really relates to classroom formants and essentially teaching. I think it is certainly not proven in any manner shape or form. And so therefore salary and reinforcement system

I think should be granted on that basis for what you want in that system. You want the teacher to get along well with the school board. I guess that's how you give a raise. I would prefer to see that. You know this in terms of somebody not being motivated being promoted out everybody does something I mean that's you know you even our children that are extremely retarded you know essentially in bed. They do something. And that's the whole point to start with where they're at. You know they're doing this. Then you help them

do this. And you know again White's whole notion of you know you have a person that is essentially seeking exploring being. And that's how kids are. And you know it's terrible to see gay little kids come into the classroom. You know I mean there's all kinds of behavior there. You know that's what we have to keep going. Really great job. Yeah I think actually the whole system of classification of the retarded unfortunately has been I think very misused in the past we essentially. Use the IQ score considerably more than we should and not looked at the

behaviors that the child had and the things the child could do that's improving sound certainly certainly in the schools in the institutions anyway. And the school systems of course the new regulations that will be coming in in terms of integrating children from special classes into regular classes which hopefully is not as disastrous as a potentially appears that it might be unless we get some supports and helps help into the regular classroom teachers to bring in children with special needs into those classrooms. But they they certainly have all sorts of things they can do. It's not it's not a problem. It's just you know they are again. You know.

You're right. Yeah. Yeah I know that's certainly And again I think because behavior modification has become so popular with the retarded groups that for example in many classrooms the care skills are taught. That certainly isn't what's normally taught in a school anyway you know. But this is a learning experience and I think most I

think a lot has been done in terms of special classes again as I said this transition I don't know what's going to happen but certainly the attempt has been to focus on anything is learning. And that's true I mean if we just get out of the bag that only two plus two is learning we would be in better shape that in fact you know learning you wiggling your ears is learning. You know it may not be as functional as some things but it still is learning. You know and focus on that so that I think in general again as I said behavior might has contributed to having kids learn and also not only vertically which we tend to always look at but you know horizontally that there's a lot of ways that you can apply learning across situations and what have you you don't have to learn numbers on a paper you can count rabbits and you can count chickens and you know you can count candy and you can count all sorts of things you know.

It's more fun. And. Much less different words. Your children will increase their lives. Well the concept that has that this is all come from is the normalization concept which is a concept that developed in Sweden and Denmark and. The systems there are extremely interesting and interactive. If one goes to Sweden Denmark one comes back quite ill considering

how well they take care of people that are handicapped in that society and everybody. The idea is that you treat the child like you treat anyone else but you consider that he has special needs period so that he sees a doctor like everyone else sees it for example in their society where medicine is socialized. You don't set up a private situation like we do with our institutions out in the middle of nowhere. These kids don't go to doctors like everyone else. They have their own doctor. They don't get all sorts of treatment. We can't do you know the dentist said I can't treat that child I mean he's retarded. Of course you can't use teeth in a different way but he also is for the most part. You know why can't he go in and get shoes at the start. You know it's that kind of concept that you treat him as no normal.

I eat as everyone else in all respects that he can be and when he has special needs you help him with those special needs. And in the classroom that means that he may not be at the same learning bubble but that in fact he may be peer wise in terms need the same kinds of things. And what have you so that you make it as normal as possible but recognize he had his special needs. I it's not going to be an easy concept to get across I don't think in our society. But it is it works. I mean it works very much and it's been shown to work. And that idea may just help me in some of those each. But this is a way old school. All

right. That shows that in every line. This thing really is no good. I think one of the things the most beautiful book I have ever seen in my life is a book from Sweden which is a little book. That used as a primer first and second grades and it has a retarded child on the front and it says Hi my name is Danny and you opened it and it says something like you know this is my mother this is my father with pictures and says that shows the kid eating you know it was sloppy. It's a I sometimes have trouble eating. I'll bet you sometimes have trouble eating. But I have more trouble than you usually. And then it shows some pills and says I you sometimes have to take pills. My I have to take pills a lot you know. And

it goes on like this and this is a book that is used by everybody. I mean it is a standard book and I would think that if we can get integration these kids may do you know a lot more for everybody else than they do for these kids. I'm all for myself or three for you that you. Well what am I going to do. I'm presently writing this book. I have another one scheduled that's a little bit different which I want to do on developmental psychopathology child psychopathology. Still played accordion everyone tell all right now I will be you know I am that university I will be switching

over presently in chemical psychology public practice programming will be switching a psychology program but not totally. Well that's a whole nother story won't go into that. I must say there is one. There is more latitude at this this level of teaching. Unfortunately though there is that levels that teaching I say that is unfortunate because I think there should be at the levels that teaching to do what you wish. I guess because I can do my own you know research I also it's of alternatives in terms of exploring all sorts of interesting questions. A lot of the same couple thing Buckminster Fuller talks about the shame that we use fossil fuels and things like using a storage battery and what we need to do is to get on the main engines of the universe like the sun and think about energy and then I think one of the things I learned this evening is something more about why you were called

Sunny. Thanks very much.