Massachusetts Viewpoint; Automation: Where Does It Strike?

Automation is a subject which has become of increasing concern to Massachusetts residents as well as of course to people across the United States. Automation is part of the inevitable I suppose technological advance of a society dedicated to technological advance. At the same time it is a matter which deals quite directly and sometimes rather tragically with the lives of human beings. Automation is not something which just suddenly occurs in a week or month but tends to grow on a society. Consequently the subject is not particularly germane to this week. And yet it is germane this week and every week. So we thought this week we would stop and consider this major phenomenon on our economic and social horizon and to discuss it with three panelists who bring to the program their own expertise in the

area of automation and economics. The three are Mr. J William Philander who is currently director of the division of employment security of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and was formerly president of the Massachusetts State Labor Council and the Massachusetts State Labor Council's AFL CIO. Mr. Joseph Mooney who is a fellow in industrial relations relations at MIT and a labor economist. And Mr. Richard library labor columnist for The Boston Herald and traveler to start a discussion I'd like to call on Mr. Moni and ask him if he would give us a little more detail as to what exactly automation means. Are we talking about simply a technological advance or about a qualitatively different variety something that differentiates the current situation from simply the whole history of industrial improvement in our economy. Mr. Mooney If we define automation precisely enough

it does represent a new development in technology and not simply an extension of past technological change. What I mean by defining it precisely is one must talk about such things as automatic transfer machines feedback control devices servo mechanism devices material handling equipment all this which goes under the name Detroit automation. That's a significant difference in the fact that it is controlled electronically and requires simply a push button type of devices. The other in a sense this is an extension of past technological change but is. On the other hand radically different. The truly new technological change I think is the whole area of computerization. Digital Computers are computers with the enormous capacity for processing data.

So often problems storing information and all the rest. This will not only have an impact on the obvious areas such as services banking insurance and that sort of thing. But also may have. An impact management itself where there seems to be. A tendency now for. Certain decisions that happen to be solved by. Management types in the past. It's all by the computer pros. Mr. Blinder automation is indeed a matter of increased technology in the area of machine development. But it's also a word describing a process that happens to people. What exactly is automation doing to the labor force in this commonwealth or in the countries of the Seychelles. Since the birth of our nation we have had

continuous change. In Massachusetts here we have the ship's sails the whaling industry gave way to the looms. The great textile mills. Presently we have electronics. We've experienced mechanization technological changes. But in industry we have never experienced what we are going through presently with what we consider is automation which was Mr. Mooney has said deals with the computers computers of the birth of computers of the system of computers started in nineteen fifty one. It's grown tremendously today.

The estimates are that we have over 12000 systems in the United States. Now to some it's considered a great progress. To others it's a curse. Claims that a new way of life with these changing times is essential to the general welfare and for the economic strength and defense of our nation. And now no one can compute or quarter rather no one can quarrel with such statements but progress as we know it is coming into being. And this is the would we if to be achieved must also be in consideration of human beings and the sacrifices that take place.

With these changes. Mr Memory would you like to open the questioning by directing a question to these two gentlemen. Mr. Blank Could you tell us precisely what industries have been hit the had as far as automation in regard to the workers and and cutbacks in the workforce as well. You you will note that the automation progresses more with large corporations that are able to afford it and that they are the profit industries. And when we talk of the industries we talk steel automobile. Principal the heavy goods the machine tools industries and Iraq quite a few in the service industries in the

banking industries and office. I see I noticed that the federal government also has has gone and gone into the use of computers and they are also dealing with automation in Philadelphia I understand that the Veterans Administration in handling J.I. insurance policies install the computer and we do so the overall clerical staff from 17000 people to 3000 which was quite a drop in person out. Now it's been asked me How will the computers go how many computers are we going to install and how drastic of an effect will it have on the workforce. Mr. Moody could you give us a little later on the simple answer do as long as they're profitable I'm sure we're going to see more and more. Across Europe is the simplicity

of automation computerization on a point where this is going to grow. Speaking as an economist this is a problem that's unsolved right now. How much unemployment will result from automation how much in the past has resulted. It certainly isn't clear at all from looking at the figures that this has been a major factor in the counting room one in this country. Mr. Boehner might go out. And answer to Mr. Latimer. It is true of the government I understand it is the largest purchasers of computers both outright purchasing and also of rentals. There are considerable number of rentals for the reason that computers are also being automated to the point that they become obsolete. In relatively short time and new giant computers time and again for instance

at the IBM has. A new generation computer that can harness eight million characters and bulk storage. And each available. Characters can be gotten and many other second. And this just to give you an idea Rob of. Just how. Vast these programming can can can be. So it's an industry. There is a considerable spread I mentioned about the largest corporations but more and more it's going right across the board. Now we are. Noticing that the unemployment picture in the United States remains more or less stagnated while they are having a growth

in our national products in our production. And we can also say that the economy is fairly good that we are living in fairly prosperous times presently but. For the past 10 years and even up to the present the average unemployment has been 5 percent. And this would be an average of some five million workers. Mr. Modi with every other technological advance it seems to me there's been a built in assumption that at least in the long run more jobs and higher gross national product and so forth would be the consequence. Possibly there would be some short term difficulties and displacements am I right in saying that now there's not even. That long term optimism that there is now considerable talk about. Simply not a time lag involved here but actually the computers

are permanently going to increase the unemployment rate permanently displace people from jobs. Why why is this why the difference. Well for one reason a good bit of the autumn automation that has occurred so far has occurred in industries as Mr. Ballenger mentioned before with the which are past their growth period the same sort of projections were made back in 1939 14 when Henry Ford introduced the assembly line techniques. However the automobile industry was just going into its extremely high growth period to the 20s and 30s and somewhat after the post well but is now leveling off steel which atomization is taking place is also a major growth area. So I think people look at a mation in these particular sectors and become frightened. Except to. Walk again. The

national thing is simply looking at unemployment at the national level simply will not bear out that automation has afflicted certain types of people. Any more saw than any other change in the past as if I may continue for a second it seems to me that the people who are really getting her are the young people the new new entrants into the labor market who are assuming some jobs being dried up. The people already in the establishment so to speak in the firms that are automating to a large extent are being taken care of by certain collective bargaining agreements and the like. But it's the new young entrance of the market. If I could add that to the list of monies state when. Our population grows as close to 3 million as the plans are. And presently we are employing 71 million people in the United States.

Now the estimates for. Nineteen seventy well be eighty six million jobs. That's what we need. We need three million jobs each and every year two million new workers coming into the labor market every year to make them. We have 1 million workers that are being affected by automation or other changes that are being displaced. Now this means a constant shift in the work population. Now we hear about training and retraining and we've only scratched the surface. It's estimated that workers entering into gainful employment will have to be trained or retrained for a period foreign for at least three or

four times during their lifetime as we are presently. Moving. And this is something that we've never experienced and I lifetime nothing. I'm parallel. As ever existed. In regard to the trauma doc strike I believe that automation has played a very very important role and can we expect now that the big labor organizations in the country are going to take a real Had look as far as automation and the policy in the future will be to protect the jobs even more than than in the past most of the engine. I know that Labor has taken a hard look and Labor has a very effective research departments and they keep abreast

of the times. And we're coming toward a point now to go to a point where. We're going into such a change that it's difficult to cope with as Mr. Mooney says we don't know where we're going. Nobody has the answer. Let alone the dock workers. I'm sympathetic from what the railroad workers people say well they're fed up better fed a bit featherbedding doing work where you shouldn't be. At the polls because there's nothing to be done. And all these things now we can streamline the railroads and they were but it meant the loss of 65000 jobs. And so it goes with the darks and so it goes with the newspaper industry that you're quite familiar with most and I'm reading that in New York City we had a long strike strictly automation some day you know all the.

New services Zionists and the UPC etc.. Well tape their reports and attach it to the pressing machines and your newspaper will come out. So there you have the typographical people etc. that are quite. Disturbed and have a problem. So it's the end of the line for a lot of people. So we're going to have these skirmishes and from time to time until we solve the problem. But in order to solve the problem not have something to say about that later we're going to have to do some very bold planning. Mr. Looney to answer specifically the question was raised at first I think as long as you need work rules have an economic value they're going to trade another bag and take whatever technological change is introduced. But on another point when you talk about automation on the docks you have to remember that most of this talk is concerned

with simply introducing things like containers for the car containers ation on the docks to lift cargo out of a hole of a ship onto the pier and also the simple use of pallets for forklift trucks to look at these pallets and take them into the shed. Well I think you have to stretch it a bit to really call this a mechanization Yes I think that automation. You may think this is the semantic point but I think it's worth drawing a difference between the two. And one other point I. There may be a danger here although I am in sympathy with the concept of property rights that many units of news. Work are on the job for a number of years as build up certain probably right his job and is entitled to some compensation if he's displaced so far. There may be a tendency here for the unions to almost blackmail.

Firms for every sort of change they want to introduce. As long as I have some work rules so there may be a tendency for them to try and implement work rules simply for the purpose of trading the markets in future point. You were speaking earlier Mr Maloney of the differential impact of automation on the labor force suggesting that young people were perhaps. Disproportionately hurt by automation because people are already in the jobs are able by collective bargaining to make some modus vivendi for the length of their work lives. Are there other such differential impacts you talked about. Thinking of the economic rather than occupational status listing hierarchy that management as well as lets say on skilled or semi-skilled labor are heard. Can we say that these segments of the occupational strike straight are. Hurt more than people who are skilled labor.

We're already aware of the fact that the electrical industry a skilled and history has had to come to grips with. That's how very effectively how a nation by going to very short work week does this it pretty much across the board in the occupations or is it mostly unskilled and that maybe some of the managerial level who are hurt. Well we talk about the military a lot of us still speculate that it's kind of fun to do this to think about middle management people being displaced not fun but interesting. But once again if you look at unemployment rates and I don't want to go into this in the great detail if you look at unemployment rates for unskilled groups the blue collar workers for manufacturing operators since 58. You don't find any major change. These people have suffering but suffering just as much today as I did 10 years ago. It's the young teenagers the first job interims the people without any previous experience whose

unemployment rate has risen dramatically. Just a memory. Well I believe that the workforce has changed considerably. This virus is the make up in me doing some of the statistics here in Massachusetts with found that a great number of manufacturing jobs have gone by the boards and we at the same time we've had an increase in the service industry people selling pot gone low paying jobs you know replacing replace in the type of job in an industry where a family man would get a full week's pay. Now Mr. Blanchard could you fill us in on some of the background in the last few years here in Massachusetts. Well I'm glad you asked that question Mr. Lyman right because I'm going to give you a figure that will startle all of you here. I said employment in the United States stands at 71 million presently.

And when we talk of manufacturing jobs we have 16 million left in the nation. You can compare this with 11 million in government which is all facets of government that has local state federal and put in the armed forces of course as I leaven many 16 million manufacturing jobs in the West. And when we're talking automation those. These are the industries that are the hardest hit. We know of course that the clerical is coming in for more automation but. The impact does bend with manufacturing so that in New England 1956 the spread of computers came into 51. The professional and technical jobs employment increased

41 percent clerical 26 the service industry 19. But. I'm scaled decreased 17 percent. And the bulk of these are in manufacturing. Now the projection now for 60 to 70 and we're half way and the 65. The professionals and the technicians will increase by 38 percent and our own skill will decrease again by 11 percent. So that I job gains. I've been a wholesale retail trade's banking insurance and government. And the startling point here. The point is that the manufacturing jobs are constantly decreasing and going to Massachusetts. We've had

again and 63 64 of some 32000 jobs. But there again we had a loss of some 10000 in manufacturing. And ratio or percentages of our industries. Paralleled those of the nation statistic wise. And as I say with the shift in work population is constant and we're going to have to do. More planning whether some people don't like it or not. Than ever before to meet these changing times. It's their money I'm doubly proud of the numbers that Mr. Ballenger mentioned the decrease in manufacturing on the cars with automation but part of the decrease is simply going to shift and demand an apology in the public from good sectors to service sectors people are simply buying more insurance programs more banking services more health care more education more the creation

and this is cause some of the shift but it's true some of it probably has been effective. All right Mr. money are you suggesting that demand for goods is decreased. It's only that it's increasing at a rate slower than increase for services which I couldn't answer. I suspect there's a lot I could add to that by fast while we're talking about a contraction and jobs. Productivity went up 40 percent. So all the shifting. Could have been that by state that's still purchasing 40 percent from what I said production over 40 percent more production with less workers and then destroyed. To give you one example the textile industry if you want to walk till 1947 and like one million and a quarter work yes today it's eight hundred thousand. And they produce 40 percent more goods from 1946 to the present That's

correct and that's what I was wondering what time span you're speaking of there. When you talk Mr. money. And Mr. Bland your average differential impact on a young man and only one skill. Does this also that mean that there is an additional admittedly not directly related social problem involved here are we not talking when we're talking about young skilled about a disproportionate number of negroes in American society. Is automation now a possibility for increasing the tensions between Negroes and white in America as a result of increasing differentiation and economic status as to money unless that is unless vocational training programs and the like are expanded to take that into account. You're right. This teen age group the un educated teen age group in the Negro is often the same group.

To some extent so we can isolate a little more and more. Here is where the government development training. OK she committed not as a pledge or rule. Presently And it's going to be increasingly more so the undereducated the unskilled semi-skilled. If I want to start off an industry with them people with employment they need. But you'll have to be a technician so to speak. Working on the board that will guide the products before he'll. Meet people people won't. Workers won't touch the machine with their hands. We have presently in one steel company a 20 ton slab which throw six massive rollers at a speed of 3000 feet a minute comes out as a gleaming

shining piece of steel for the auto industry. It requires one hundred ninety separate readings and I just and adjustments and is done by. Oh by the computer with no hands just push button. Welcome again to Massachusetts viewpoint our topic this week is automation. Where does it strike. Our panelists for tonight's program are Mr. Jay William Philander director of the division of Employment Security for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and formerly president of the Massachusetts State Labor Council and the Massachusetts state labor councils. If our CIO. Mr. Joseph Mooney a labor economist and a fellow in industrial relations at MIT and Mr. Richard Lamm every labor columnist for The Boston Herald and traveler Brucey shows director of political studies at the Lincoln firing Center at Tufts.

Well we've been talking as if all of that is needed to in fact meet the problems of automation is some device to provide more jobs are producing less people is that a solution. Well of words Secretary of Labor has suggested the birth control of the answer to automation. What's your feeling on that Mr. Blanchard. Well I don't think that. One of what's advocated and for all he said probably we ought to look at the population explosion that's something else again because we have an explosion explosion coming out of schools every year and. There are not enough jobs going around until we do some planning. So. We have to think in terms of. A job of job creating forces. To beat and must beat the job eliminating forces. This is a constant war and who knows

the answer. In the United States presently. We have in the midst of our prosperity in one hundred fifty eight major labor areas a cross section of the country 31 listed as substantial and best and with persistent unemployment. And this is sad indeed could be anywhere from 5 to 12 percent of unemployment in those particular areas and these other pockets and this is something we've got to do do something about it and we've got to do some planning for sure. I'm just a loser. Labor has the big labor organizations advocated a shorter work week and various other plans to meet automation and the unemployment problem. Some of the organizations even had advocated a four day work week. Do

you foresee for instance a 30 hour work week in the next 10 years or the next five years. It's a situation where they would cut the work week for those who were working two in an attempt to create more jobs. Well Mr. Larabee I don't know what it will be five like 10 years but for sure something will be an industry. And labored through negotiations and certain sectors ours have reduced their numbers of hours. The government presently predicated on and increased national growth. Is not too sympathetic. They advanced another approach which all means that we must read the existing work and that's what we're going to have to deal with. But attaching to the

wages a additional penalty on the on the premium pay for overtime work. Now the government is forthright on this one. Labor believes in a shorter work year and it's inevitable the timing. I don't know. And this is the only way that we're going to cope with the problem. It's estimated that if we were to reduce to a 35 hour week that the possibility of some two million workers could be employed. These are figures. I don't know how long and a shot of it but it makes some sense. You're going to have to spread and they have to spread even a little more. Plenty to bear in mind here is that if we do cut the work week

an increase in productivity will have to take place to offset the increase and I always crossed for you know of labor. If this doesn't take place it's really simple economics but if the price of labor has risen relative to other factors more automation will take place and further displacement occurs. I am not an advocate of the shot of workers which are out of work. As there been any evidence that the provisions of the last steel contract providing for extensive layoffs but no plan layoffs has had this effect it is that it. Has in effect raised the cost of labor to a point where automation is even. Aggravated or. Accelerated. If it hasn't I think it's a bit too early to really judge that this is still going to the steel industry and the steel Union and negotiating a

sabbatical leave. I'm also trying to get to grow up with the situation. It's a most difficult one. There is a big industry it was always the barometer of. Our economic so to speak our industrial economy and its faced layoffs and unemployment. And so they came forth and they said that after every five years of work it will take three months off sabbatical and we'll rotate this to see if we can keep more gainfully employed. We're talking about a shorter work year. We're interested in the youth we want to keep them in school. The government is doing something to prevent dropouts we want dropouts to go back in school we have these Youth Opportunity Programs. If we set that if we can make progress there it's a step in the right direction on

the other hand I think that we have to look over our retirement $5 I think we're going to have to have early retirement and of course with this goal is adequate pensions and with adequate pensions you can attract retirement. We have a 65 now would 62 buy option and who knows could come to 60 or 55 years we we've been here of 55 years and negotiations and some industries. Now in addition to this in between all the work time you must have the penalty on overtime so that you can again spread. The job's estimated that we have some 4 million people working overtime in this country. I don't average of 12 hours a week. If you could accuse humor like this you'll find out that you'd create a few million jobs. The longer vacations are

also inviting and more holidays. I said the sabbatical leave the. Then when we talk about the cost of goods and the production and producing I can visualize the time in the bowl planning that workers will be working. Not a question of equity be a question of a guaranteed annual wage. It's either one of the other. If you keep people on the unemployment heap and keep them there continually they become welfare recipients so you pay for it indirectly. It's going to be out charge and so all we have. This is the broad program before us in these United States I might point out that the administration is spending seven hundred ninety six million dollars and in fiscal 66 they're going to they're asking for one billion three hundred million dollars to combat

poverty. And this is because we did not take care of the workers and I played when they went down from the mines but we left them to decay not picking up where we left off and it's costing us much more. This was just an armory. Most of the lines of this automation picture overall has had a psychological effect on the rank and file workers in the country. Do you find any restlessness. If I was the worker when he looked into his future and we have strikes of major significance going on at the present time and also some key contracts to be negotiated. Do you find this restlessness having some disturbing features as if I was the settlement of contacts and so forth. There is because it's estimated that with automation

and the way it's accelerating when we go to bed at night there are four thousand jobs being eliminated or changed in America every night. Now these workers see the machines coming into. New computers the mechanization coming into their industry there is great. Concern I might point out that so much so that we notice that they will. Negotiations are varying off somewhat from the wages and hours so to speak and getting more so toward the fringe benefits the job security approach which is part of the. Much of the program that I explain that I've mentioned here and this is going on. We're going to get along the way more stubborn

strikes reasons they're not easy. It's not a question of whether it's 10 or 15 cents an hour. There are jobs we haven't solved the railroad problem yet that's that the railroad problem and hovering over it and in the shadows. Sixty five thousand jobs being eliminated. And this is a real difficult task. I think that they are no longer shawm and haven't solved the problem. All of them out temporary lip read so to speak until we find a plan and program going into effect just a little early. There's been a figure of thought a thousand jobs a week mentioned in the press himself what we got automation is as the number of jobs being eliminated on a weekly basis due to technology and so forth. And then on the other side it's been disputed

and I do think there was a specific figure that seems to be up is it a blown up they get a thousand. Do you really know. I have no idea of validity of the magnitude of the figure I'd like to know how the figures arrived at. Maybe it was by one of those computers. If I could just answer the question right before about the impact of automation on collective bargaining massage I think Mr. dollars so Job security is has become the prime issue for many unions I think it's relevance right above the recent east coast maturing settlement which primarily the outcome was to provide this within the next couple of years of current you know income for all those registers. Your lunchroom seems to be the approach the steel workers will take in spring this year also.

Now Mr. Blinder while such an agreement is not provides job security for the individual union member it is he's got his job for then. How about you know itself this is a rather drab prospect of increasing decreasing membership over time decreasing membership dues no less. How do the unions look at it. From now you fissionables morning the unions have have also been hit with automation. The work population has increased but the membership has. Grown. Has not grown commensurate with it in other words. Among the professionals engineers technicians. Clerical they've always been the most difficult to organize. Not that they make more than the blue collar workers but they're more sophisticated.

So you're so Labor has felt this and backed and and Labor is also getting into the white collar field more and more the way they have a pretty good cross-section organized presently but numerically not as strong as as their main as the mainstream of the mainstay. They have had over the years which the wars in manufacturing now coming back to the figures that you asked Mr. Lamb are these are Federal Government figures and they take it by census. The growth in population. You subtract naturally the deaths and then you have the numbers again by census and schools coming out and then you'll have your anticipated figures and. In the United States you have a pretty good census.

You have pretty good figures because we have several agencies not only through the Department of Commerce but in labor in the Bureau of Labor Statistics and getting into the states that we by far can make the best computations of any country in the world. And for that reason we can make better projections so these figures are really startling when you say forty thousand new jobs per week. But it's understood that our country is also growing by 3 million a year. And that that is why that we won't be able to isolate ourselves and deal only with our own domestic economy. But we have to make friends abroad because trade will have to be worldwide especially with our new found nations of Africa etc. so that we can barter and trade. We're speaking as a minority of world trade and so forth of the fact that.

That the computer that would be that we're building in this country is also being shipped overseas and being introduced in a lot of these countries overseas and they still will feel the same problems. May they probably out now and I think in the future they're probably feeling most of it early. The unemployment money supply will become a chief export item but you have to remember it's very expensive. Computerization and one of the things I probably should have mentioned earlier is the fact that a computer because it was so expensive because of such a fixed cost almost has to be run all the time 24 hours a day. That's to be a continuous flow if you're going to maximize his years. So until there is an increase in demand from abroad if you're talking about underdeveloped countries at least I think would be a few years but it's quite possible. It will be achieved by just the money.

I mean perhaps play devil's advocate here why isn't just plain old let's say fair solution here is if automation as you have through a lot of people out of work this presumably will have some impact on their ability to consume. And manufacturing and so forth well I just that I can't simply be worked out by the sheer marketplace. Why can't work be worked out. As you know I don't the problem of the desirability of computerization is if computers are introduced in order to increase production and at the same time the demand for goods remains constant or drops because of people losing jobs and losing income. Want to see an effect a slowdown the introduction of production increasing devices. Possibly but the computerization that has occurred so far.

I'm speaking generally now has taken place to some extent of manufacturing but more in the service sector which has been a rapidly growing area since in the worldwide to more rapidly growing manufacturing. So it is in that sense taking care of itself. We've talked a great deal about possible solutions some of them temporary. Some of them not so temporary and I've been struck by the mix of governmental solutions and economic solutions solutions. In essence a negotiator between labor and management. I've also been struck by the relative balance of those two kinds of a greater emphasis on economic rather than political solutions of the political ones we've talked about over job retraining programs wars on poverty and so forth. Two questions let me direct from the US to Blancher. Are there other

governmental solutions or political solutions to this thing. And if so what are their feasibility. Can they be sold to Congress or whoever. Well in the United States really takes us time some time to come to the full grasp of the problem that exists. I'm satisfied that we were on the march. I think that starting with former presidents kind of these kind of these new frontiers and out of the Great Society that. More programs are coming into being and ever before and since the New Deal of the early 30s and the New Deal programs came to combat the blackest depression that this country ever had. Now you will notice that the anti-poverty program

deals with all phases of our society. It deals primarily with you. Great emphasis on the deal and then they welfare recipients to see if we can get them to get off the welfare rolls rehabilitate them and also to try and find some gainful employment. Now with you the programs are twofold one to those that have dropped out. And probably would not have dropped out if we did that or had different guidance to have a second chance to go back to school. Secondly if they have dropped out because they were never attracted by school is how can we get them interested to learn the three R's and also gainful employment. So this will be vocational and the three Rs. Then of course with the aged we're going to do more in the field of health. And all of this is going to

tend to help the economy on the other hand the. As I said earlier the question of the shorter work. Yeah. It. Is not. Forgotten. It's going to be taken up again you'll recall that your neighbor you may recall that during the New Deal days we almost had a 30 hour week in this country lost by one vote in the United States Senate. That was to combat the depression at the time. And so we have to be flexible to meet the times we know what we have facing us and it's got to be done. Now the cost you will notice the government has taken a different approach in the economy and that they are also while. Expending money for these projects by reducing taxes to put money into the consumers pockets.

And I want this as a stimulus to industry and also to the nation. So there are many things we feel encouraged we. Told we are encouraged. To. To tolerate our training and retraining programs you would be amazed how many people have been forgotten where at the end of the line no job but exhausted unemployment a long long long time ago. And at the same time. We're in despair. And so they came along. The retraining program. Invited the men they learned a new trade got a new lease on life and I gainfully employed. We have trained and we are. And we are presently training and have on the drawing boards to train all told a thousand workers for those with training presently over

half of this amount 75 percent of them have found new jobs and things that they have never thought that they would. Get into something new when Tiley happened. And it's a new lease on life. How affected literary health how effective is the retraining program and we. Is it going to get us speed fast enough now to cope with the problem. Do you think we need to encourage industry do come into the picture more and more. Maybe give them that tax incentive to to get them to put their shoulder to the wheel and get this problem solved. Well the problem really sacked because of the longest lines you can correct me I think it was forty thousand the first year and was at least going up by a factor to have 200000 trained in the second year which is still a very small number of relation

to the total unemployment. I agree with what you implied in the remark about permitting some tax. Deductions along the lines of depreciation allowances for firms that voluntarily stop their own retraining program. Maybe they do it better. I'd like to go back to one of Mr. Blodgett talked about. Both planning. In mentioning some detail a shot of work here the sort of work week it seems to me that this is basically a negative approach. This is simply it has some advantages but basically this is spreading unemployment among all the people rather than people you know. If you're both bad enough but this is hardly a cure. What I would like to say is a good spirit and overall aggregate demand.

There are a lot of unfilled needs in this country. Education rose and so forth schools and here is where I'd like to see the government undertake efforts to increase demand overall demand by instituting programs along these lines. And one other thing that isn't often emphasizing talking about these retraining programs is that although they may not solve the if there is a technological unemployment problem it's good to bear in mind that if they're providing rate of equality of opportunity for a lot of people who were in the past of watching this thing Mr. Money that when you say there are still a lot of unfulfilled. Consumer demands your illustrations are off in the public sector. I mean social needs not so much from him as a consumer. Mr. Mooney does it make sense that industry

should be encouraged to the greatest degree to expand at the present time and to create the new jobs needed for the millions of teenagers who are coming into the market and so forth through a campus here about something among three. Well costly the tax the tax break that we had in the past year has done a lot to encourage business to to move and to create these jobs. Do you think it was enough to to actually solve the problem of the facing. Well the unemployment rate has dropped ever since Mark and since the time the tax cut but dangerous. Every year we may be looking for some sort of panacea some cure all next year and maybe excise taxes. Or what have you. What I would like to see is a good spur for change from the business sector

itself. Coming directly from the state without necessarily having government incentives in twosomes gentlemen our time is drawing to a close and some action I think we can say that this was laid out this evening that the effects of automation may indeed be permanent unless there is some sharp increase in consumer demands in the public sector that the impact is differentially felt by particularly the young the unskilled and Negroes. There may be a number of solutions some of them rather on the short run are temporary some more fundamental such as phasing out workers over their work lives shorter work weeks retraining retirement and pensions coming at an earlier time penalty on overtimes longer vacations guaranteed annual wages and so forth. But it does seem to become clear perhaps I'm being unfair in saying this and summarizing

all of your opinions that there must be a larger role of government if there is to be an major attack on the problems associated with automation. The labor movement and management certainly have responsibilities and I've tried to meet some of those responsibilities. But there is a strong role to be played here by government as well. Gentleman thank you very much.