Studio Talk; The History and Development of Negro Art

The history and development of Negro art is our topic this evening and our guest is James Mitchell, the Executive Secretary of the Boston Negro Artist Association. On the panel this evening are Edward Moulder, Assistant Professor of Massachusetts College of Art. Lee Wirtenberg, President of Folio Associates. James Mitchell, before we start talking about the development and history of Negro art perhaps you can tell us a little bit about the Boston Negro Artists Association, when it started and what it's doing. The Boston Negro Artist Associations started in February of 1963 to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. Uh, it started with a group of artists who live- with my house and we organize- with the help of the NAACP and Mrs. James R. Purdy, an art exhibit at the Freedom House. Each time, we show the works of

15 artists. [Host] Were those artists historic Negro artists or were- were they, um, dealing with Negro in America or what type of an exhibition was that? [James Mitchell] This was an exhibition showing the, uh, Negro artists in the community, uh. And also with professional artists. A cross section of pro- professionals, uh, and amateurs. Mhmm. Contemporary- Contemporary artists. Uh-huh. Uh, so I'm a, uh, we- this was as- sent- sent a- searching program on our part to find out what did exist in the community in the way of artists. All right, good. We found, uh, you know, many artists, uh, actively participating in their work. Professionals in the community but not part of the community search. Not known by the

community itself. And this we felt should be changed. And we- we took steps to do that. [Host] Is this a continuing program? Are you constantly having exhibitions? [James Mitchell] We are constantly having exhibitions and, uh, aiding organisations to, uh, set up programs on history and mass education. [Host] Are you using the- the art as- as part of history or are you using it in conjunction with historical objects? Or how does that work? [James Mitchell] Well, we combined to- this is a visual, uh, program of presenting exhibits to explain the history of the area in which the children live. To present to them their history in a way that it would remain with them, and they would feel a part- the children feel a part of the community that they live in. [Host] And this sitting here- we're now

talking about Boston. [James Mitchell] Boston, that's right. Right. This is a, uh, local program. This is- that we are busy with. Mmhm. Attached to a national group. Again, we supply art to the exhibits and other cities. But our main job is here in Boston. [Host] Since your founding in 1963 what other activities have you gotten involved with? [James Mitchell] Well, there have been many activities. Since '63, we had, uh, a demonstration, uh, of fine art block printing at St. Paul AME Church. This was, uh, to introduce the community to, uh, the art of, uh, block printing. This was a very successful- a very successful affair. This was in November 1st, 1964. [Host] Who attends these- these programs that you've put on, uh, Mr. Mitchell? [James Mitchell] Uh, it's- it's

attended by the community. This- this happened to be in Cambridge. This program's in Cambridge. We've been called by other, you know, outlining communities to present programs. [Host] That- I- I was just wondering whether the appeal was to the community at large or whether we're dealing with- with children or, you know, what type of audience- [James Mitchell] Well, this is a- this is a program of, uh, of dealing with the community as a whole. Now, we, uh, attempt to, uh, see to it that the organization make use of art. Some of the- we work with the, uh, Peoples Baptist? Church. We sparked the, uh, programs in one of the '60s anniversary. We bought in to play the use of illustrations and- in that program, and we helped them form their booklet, and we're attempting to encourage them now into putting this into book form. With the illustrations. This will be used to, uh, give- to

present to new members in the church as well as to, uh, to present it to the city as the history of this church, which is 160 years old, tie in with the history of Boston itself. [Host] When you start organizing an exhibition and get this exhibition up, and it's been out for a while, do you feel that it's having any influence in the community? Can you- can you at this point after- after three years of- of working feel that there's any- any progress in the type of things that you're trying to do? [James Mitchell] Well, we've had many examples. I'll tell you one close- close to, uh, home on, uh, my street. I feel that through my activities I've changed my own, uh, section of the world. People are far more interested in art.

Interested in what I'm doin'. My neighbor has asked to see the art that I have. My art, as well as the art of the organization itself. They'll stop me and ask me when is the next exhibition, and they do turn out to see the, uh, exhibits that we have and they also, uh, bring their friends. [Host] It's great to have that type of enthusiasm for the visual arts. [James Mitchell] They have, uh, also been encouraged to go to the Museum of Fine Arts, and we had discussions about their activities outside of the community with these people. They bring these up. They call up our attention to things that's happening on television, radio, maybe we missed it, that deals with artists in general. [Host] Good. Lee Wirtenberg, What is the, uh, progress of the, uh, Negro artist in the commercial art field? Does he find a place in, uh, ad agencies

and preparing work for the newspaper ads or in signs, displays? Uh, is there any advancement in the commercial Negro artist? [Lee Wirtenberg] This is not our field of work. But, uh, I- I know for a fact that there are more Negro commercial artists and, uh, that are active, uh. Some of them in our group, they haven't been able to, uh, get jobs that are in this field, where they're interested in commercial art. Some who were, uh, at the time when we started, uh, not too active, but they are active now. And there has been uh, uh, whom I said in this field. Uh, of advertisements, there are many going into this area. [Host] We've heard a lot about, uh, fine artists always having the problem of how to support themselves

and the fact that many of them, uh, find their teaching careers as the basis of their economic existence. What, uh, is the basis of the Negro artist's economic existence? Does he teach also or does he have another job? Or have some been able to support themselves entirely on their fine arts work? [Lee Wirtenberg] Uh, a Negro artist is like any other American artist in he faces the same problems. He lives here and he- he finds that he cannot live on just the fine arts alone. He has to work as a commercial artist or- or teach. [notepad flip] Or have some other- if this is just a- It's a universal artist problem, I think. I mean, yeah. [chuckles] [Host] I was wondering actually in the negative, whether it was more difficult for him to solve the problem as a teacher. Are they, uh,

able to find, uh, places as teachers? [Lee Wirtenberg] This is- as I said in- not my area. Our main concern is- because we are not that type of organization. Our main job is , uh, with the community. And to, uh, raise the cultural standings of the community itself. Now, normally I- I would say that we don't- I mean, the experiences I've had in, uh, the field that, uh, you would find, you know, it a problem to obtain, uh, jobs. In- in other words, the Negro artist would face the same problem that a Negro engineer or a Negro draftsman would face. You know, it'd be the same. [clears throat] [Host] Uh, it seems to me, as a matter of fact, that, uh, that would probably be even more difficult for a Negro artist because, uh, there certainly is- there certainly are more calls for draftsmen and engineers than there are for art teachers, the art

teacher market is a very, very closed market. Not too many of those jobs around. I would- I would like to ask Mr. Mitchell if his organization does anything in the area of finding talent among, uh, Negro children and- and encouraging it through scholarships of any kind? Has that- has that particular function been taken over by your organization at all? [James Mitchell] Well, we- we encouraged, uh, setting up for the scholarships since I've exist- beginning, and, uh, some of them organizations already have- have scholarships set up and programmed. But, uh, with our activities that they- this makes them sensitive to the artist and gives them more of an opportunity of gaining these scholarships. You know, more recognition where in the past, uh, certain fields for the Negroes were the

acceptable field. Where now we show it to them. And by introducing them to professional lives that are maybe teachers but this is successful even in the eyes of the community. We show them that Johnny can be an artist and make, uh, money or -environment. And this way, they- they feel that's, uh, they can, uh, place on money along as an encouragement without encouraging them to later becoming a failure. Uh-huh. [Host] Do you set up programs for children? [James Mitchell] We- we- I- what- I can't- we have organized in the past a few programs. We encourage the artists in our group to teach where- we're in the community whereas we- last time asked her- can we, you and Ned, can you come into community? And I still make an appeal too. Now, we want to have more of this. Now this has been on our-- in all fields. This is needed in the communities. Once this starts

we can change the community very fast and change- raise our level of art to make money. Yeah, I know. [clears throat] Uh, [Host] When you extend say an invitation to us to, uh, to commit the community and possibly speak to or teach, uh, uh, Negro children about art, wouldn't it- wouldn't it seem that if Negro children were to, uh, have these experiences with successful Negro artists that possibly it would be more meaningful to them? [James Mitchell] Well, we would- this would, uh, be good. We- why not do- we hold you the whole job. Not only to introduce them to Negro artists but also introduce them to, uh, art- the artists- the tops in their field. In other words, what I'm saying is introduce him to Negro artists and our art instructor but feed to that community the best that he is. Uh-huh.

And in this way, you- you- you raise a standard of all the community. You raise them and it's a positive report. We- we have been facing the neg- negative attitude all the time from the home throughout the community. This way I think, uh, we would get quick results because the Negro people, because of the problems they faced, have a long ways to go to catch up. [Host] I see. What would you hope will be- will be gained by your activities in the community? ... level? [James Mitchell] Well, I- I hope that this in a way, would strengthen the country itself. And we could, uh, reach the point where we are just Americans. You know, and not be, uh, weighted down with this, uh, race myth. [Host] Mhmm. Well- [clears throat] I would think that the- the problem of- of raising the aesthetic level in all

segments of our society is an important factor. I was just wondering what you expected to- to accomplish in the Negro community specifically by doing this? I mean, what- what advantages are there to youngsters- to- to rebel condition-? [Mitchell] One thing- I'll tell you one thing I have been able to see happening in the community. Uh, when I first, uh, talked to the artists in the community in 1963, uh, there- there was a very bad, uh, feeling. I've got a negative approach to things. You know, not a positive approach. No ambition, no- -slower. They were active, there was some teaching. But I- I felt that there was no, uh, drive to, uh, to do some creative work. So, I've seen change, and now maybe this was - this was generally at the time 1963, maybe throughout the whole wide world, I'm not- I can't-

-says. But since then, some of the artists that, uh, have been working with us are now busy working in the schools. There- some of the adult artists are making up for lost time and they have- are working on scholarships. Received scholarships from schools. Uh, and from Foundations. And, uh, this is- this is moving them along. [Host] Are you searching out where scholarships are available? Is that part of what you are doing? [Mitchell] Well, what we- what we have been doing is searching out, uh, people interested in art, and, uh, seeing to it that they take the proper courses in the schools that are established in the city. And, uh, this by working with our group. This stimulates an interest in art to further in the art, and we have -- many of our members are now in the different schools in Boston. [Host] Well, how do you get to the youngster

who might- might be interested in studying art but he doesn't know how to go about it and feels that perhaps this whole area is closed to him? How- how do you get to him to- so that you can sit down and talk with him to begin with? [Mitchell] Well, we meet him through the exhibits in the community and through YMCA in Roxbury. At the- the different church affairs. People who are in the community now are so alert to things that they- they are the talents, uh, scouts now. Uh-huh. And they introduce us to young Negro artists, a young artist in the community, and, uh, and asked us to give him guidance, uh, give her guidance as to how to go about it. And this is what has been , uh, encouraging other professions. You know, writer's profession. You know, this year. I mean, Quilt Club, which has been in existence, is having a program of, uh, of reading their work at the library. We also work with the library, all the branches, and we set up exhibits. Encourage exhibits by children. We encourage the children's exhibits

in the churches. [Host] Ed Movitz? [Movitz] When you were posed a question to Mr. Mitchell, "What do you hope to achieve by this kind of program?", it seems that the manpower that is lost to our society through the situation of the Negro has been constantly that the Negro has remained in for so many years, just the the manpower that has been lost to the society, by the same token, by saying manpower I mean, for example possible scientific, educational and so forth. By the same token the number of potential artists, or poets, or composers by the you know the same ratio has has been and has been lost to our society. It seems that the fact that this organization

is working in an aesthetic area, an artistic area rather than say trying to find potential scientists or the potential engineers amongst negro youngsters that, just as we all have our specializations, I can see where this search would of necessity be a specialization and be of great-- to satisfy a great need. [Host] John? [James Mitchell] One thing we mentioned last time [Host] James Mitchell. [Mitchell] One thing we mentioned last time was the approach of the parents and we have, since we've been working this, brought about a different relation, different understanding of art here in the community among the parents. This distinction gives freedom to that child that has the talent and people now search for this talent in their child and they give

him more respect. I stopped in one artist's home who I knew when he first started as an artist, and very talented and I remarked that I see now that he's been moved up to the front of the house. [laughter] Right and his studio is a going thing. [Movitz] I'll never forget and I went to school in Roxbury at Memorial High School. I'll never forget that when I had art classes in the high school there was a negro boy there who had, on looking back now, a most fantastic amount of talent, could paint rings around me at the time and his ambition, now this would be back in the middle '40s, his ambition was to be a fighter. The fact that he had this magic in his hands was of absolutely no -- you know, no realization, no concern to him, what he was going to do was to be a fighter.

And this is, this has always stayed with me, this idea because I say the amount of talent that he had was fantastic. And if this, if your, excuse me, Mr. Mitchell's group is doing anything to channel the negro boys or girls into realizing you know, those that do have the talent, into recognizing it and that if things that have occurred in our social set up that will now cause them to feel that possibly art is a legitimate field to go into then I think that this is certainly the right to be taken. [Host] When I asked that question I was thinking of a story that Jack Harris told us. I think, believe he told the story on the air, of

a study that was done in major metropolitan slum areas and they went into the different communities and asked children many questions in part, part of the study dealt with their aesthetic appreciation of what they thought was beautiful and they were constantly getting answers like the most beautiful thing that they ever came in contact with was the garbage trucks picking up their garbage or perhaps a new Coca-Cola sign, as would be the limit of their appreciation of things. So I am quite sure that just by putting out an exhibition allowing people to see that this can can broaden horizons fantastically. Lee Wirtenberg? [Lee Wirtenberg] Can any contemporary classification be given to what the Negro artists are doing, are they concentrating in any area of sculpture or painting or are they following the same pattern of

schools and experimentation that's going on in the rest of the contemporary art world? [James Mitchell] Well the members of our group are actually involved in the regular school activities or life of the art community and they are following whatever is the mood of the day. This is an extra bit that they're doing. They resent it to a certain extent but this-- the community activity is an extra duty to perform and I don't think-- I think this increases their activity in whatever they do. This stimulates them to a certain extent when they see your positive results in their own community and now are being accepted by the community. This gives them a little more freedom, the freedom that an artist needs to do better work.

[Wirtenberg] In this kind of activity do you have any tie-in with any national organization, is the same kind of effort going on in other communities that you can draw on for experience and background? Are other cities trying this too? [James Mitchell] There are other cities working on this, and I talked, we also bring in speakers from outside, especially in the south, we like to introduce artists from the south and paintings from the south. We've had Dr. James Porter from Howard here and I asked him this question about the other activities, I knew of the existence of some organizations in west, west coast. Also there's one in New Orleans, Washington D.C. has a strong group, and Chicago. But he said that our group was

the only one he felt that had hit on the key and that is turning in to the community, keeping the activities going, and stimulating interest outside. But if you want the artist, the professional artist, if possible to the community, help change the environment of the community, or give an image to the young child in the community, and this has been successful. [Wirtenberg] Earlier today, to crib a little bit of homework on the subject, I went to the Britannica and looked up Negro Art and there was mention of one thing that tied right in with this area, that is the very first artist they mentioned, and to me it's just a name I must admit, is Edward Bannister. And apparently he is the earliest identifiable Negro painter in America and he came from Providence, Rhode Island and was the founder of the Providence Art Club. Now I'm just dropping these without

any understanding behind what I'm saying, but it was interesting to me because I thought there might be in that background a good bit of support and history in the area of Negro Art. [Mitchell] The first artist who was mentioned by Phillis Wheatley who is here in Boston. And this dates back quite a bit back in the 1800s, and an African here in America, and since that time there was Joshua Johnston who painted similar to the Peales and did portrait painting. There have been many Negro artists you know, and that's why we feel there's no need to prove that Negroes can paint. This has been stated in art books. That's not what we're trying to do. There also

existed in Boston, the Boston Negro Art Club. This was formed in 1907 and there they had many exhibits, the first exhibit had a hundred and twenty paintings and drawings. This was in Autumn 1907 and also at the same time the list of Robert Hemmings who was studying in Paris. Now I've been digging through this, many other names are coming forth and we're starting an exhibit in Central Library on the 13th of next month. [Host] How do you go about finding these paintings? Are they readily available? [Mitchell] This is something we haven't been able to do, we'd like to do this too, to search back through and find the paintings of Negroes in Boston during the period and we make an appeal for this. It's similar to appeals to history and records of organization which has been

lost. This is something, we speak of Negro history or history of the Negro and as of last year I'd say, things were thrown away that we should have been kept. And this is another thing we -- this is something we have been doing is encouraging the clubs to keep the history of their organization. [Moritz] Another thing I learned is that because of the fact that prior to the middle eighteen hundreds down south, the Negro was almost exclusively if not exclusively the artisan, the man who did anything with his hands. This meant that any artifact you might find that is dated before 1850 in the southern states will have been made by a Negro. Ironwork and woodwork of any kind. It wasn't till after that mid-century point that the idea of industry or anything like that came in and I think a search through

such artifacts of those times would really reveal the breadth and depth of the negro skill at such art work. And I think this is, as you say the background does not have to be proven because they were practically a whole century there in which any kind of artisan work was done by a negro. [Mitchell] That's true. There's many cases of that in the south. You'll find quite a bit of art around New Orleans probably. And here you had some of the top men and the skilled men in the building trade, Negroes were skilled workers. [Movitz] I think it would be interesting though to look up if there still exists a Providence Art Club and whether it is the one that was founded by-- [Mitchell] The school still exists, there's a art school in Providence-- [Movitz] The Providence Art Club? [Mitchell] That does not exist anymore. I'm not sure of this but

if this developed into a school, this club developed into a school and I understand it still in existence. [Host] You say that you're putting an exhibition together at the main library. [Mitchell] That's right. [Host] At Copley Square? What will be included in that exhibition? [James Mitchell] Well this is an exhibit. It's a salute to our patreon. Its a salute to the organizations that have existed worked faithfully to keep the Negro's head above the water, so to speak, and continuing to believe in the things we said we believe in in this country. And that is that you believe in the American dream and to continue to hope that things change. Now these organizations I am presenting the history in eight cases in the Central Library, plus the related history. We will have artifacts

that are not part of other collections in the city. These are things that I've been able to dig up in searching through the organizations themselves. [Host] Mr. Mitchell are you developing your own private collection, or are you-- is the Boston Negro Artists Association developing a collection, how's that working? [James Mitchell] Well we're developing a collection of what we would call portable exhibits on history, Negro History at the present time. [Host] This is the association-- [Mitchell] Association. And we would like to find time to go into other areas or just take trips as a workshop and do paintings and whatever the artists in the group are interested in. [Host] Have you been collecting any paintings from the early Negro artists? Have you been able to get ahold of any?

[Mitchell] I have found a few and these paintings are still in the hands of the owners. But if the museum is established, these these paintings will be a part of that museum. But the importance of the museum is that many paintings in shows that we never see here will be come to Boston. Like there is a very large collection in New York of paintings [indistinguishable]. We will be able to get their portraits of famous Negroes, they're there in the warehouse, and we very rarely see -- we see prints of them but they're in existence. There are many paintings that were put out during the Federal Project Workshops, during the Roosevelt administration and a lot of these around that we could bring here that we've never seen here in Boston. And these are, many are used in books on art by greats in the field. Not

as Negro artists but great artists. And we want to bring them here as well as introduce the younger children to the artists themselves. [Host] Lee Wirtenberg. [Wirtenberg] Have you approached any of the museums in this area to have such exhibitions? [Mitchell] Well this we hope to do with, when we do bring it, I hope to do with the help of the museums. When we had Dr. James Porter here we had many people out from the colleges in the city, representatives from the clubs, churches, and museums, the regular people on the board of directors and they expressed an interest in this. It doesn't conflict with the activities being carried on now in the other areas but this is-- using it, since we have the Charles Street Meeting Place to use, this could, we could bring an exhibit there and this exhibit could make the rounds so to

speak in the community itself as well as in the museums, or we could be to a certain extent, a clearinghouse of this type of exhibits. And they are already in existence and they have been traveling around the country. There is I think in Maine had one exhibit, they had paintings dealing with the Negro subject. Now Boston hasn't had this but I think it would be good to have this. [Wirtenberg] Would you feel that if the Museum of Fine Arts did this, that this would be encroaching on your territory as an organization? [James Mitchell] Oh no I don't see this at all as an encroachment on our territory, I would encourage the more the merrier. The thing is that what we will be dealing with at Charles Street is not only the art but the history of the local area. West End, we want to hold to that. We have so much change in the city we would

like to establish that again. At the time when, I'll say this, very few people I found knew of the the old church at Smith Court, and this shocked me because the old church was built by Africans, played an important role in the Negro life, and also church was also the founding place of the Abolitionist Movement and-- [Host] What church is this? [Mitchell] This is at 8 Smith Court, it's a synagogue now, North Russell Synagogue. [Host] And that was built when? [Mitchell] That was built in 1806. [Host] 1806. [Mitchell] This was during the Thomas Jefferson administration, and I believe we had a pilgrimage back there with People's Baptist Church this year and the feeling

you get by being in a church established by people in that time with their own hands something worthwhile to experience. [Host] Ed Movitz. [Movitz] I would like to ask Dr. Mitchell, Mr. Mitchell, In most communities and many communities the art activities of the community are centered in and function through the public schools and I was wondering if in the Roxbury area there has been any attempt to coordinate with the public schools, or if there has been any overture concerning the art of the Roxbury children to your group concerning their artwork or the use of their artwork or the use of the

schools to extend their aesthetic development? [Mitchell] Well the art-- the schools have used our artwork in the Negro History Week celebrations. They've introduced the children in the schools to the artists living in the community which I feel to be good. Also this brings out too the community and to the people in the community mainly the contributions that the Negro students have given to the schools. You tell of the story of the Negro who studied with you in school. Now you have many of these young fellows who are working in the schools and developing and but now, the difference is that since the organization

exists the community knows, they know these children and their talents are recognized and made use of. [Wirtenberg] You were talking about the museum, and Dr. Sue Bailey Thurman was supposed to join us this evening but unfortunately came down with the flu. I wonder if you could tell us a little about the museum which you were hoping to establish here in Boston. [James Mitchell] Well the museum you know, it really was the idea of Mrs. Sue Bailey Thurman, and many people in Boston. To our group was brought in on it because of the activities we have been carrying on here, in the city and we to the same extent feel that we had some influence on this decision

being made. Because we had brought out the history of the whole West End and the community to life, all the Negro, and how it tied in with the growth of Boston itself. And I think this is what convinced Mrs. Thurman and many prominent people in the need for searching a museum here. [Host] Are there plans for a new building, an actual building for to house this museum or would some other existing building be renovated and used as a museum? Have the plans gotten that far yet? [Mitchell] Plans are not that far yet. As it stands our feeling of the Charles Street Meeting House group is that the Negro people should have use of such a historical

church; played such a role in their lives and they have offered this church for the use of the Negro people as a museum. I understand they will be there two more years. And in the meantime this museum will need development. Now we know of the size of the Charles Street Meeting House is too small the house, such a large undertaking, because as I collect material I see that it is a very large undertaking with vaults and other things that you may have to store the material, but you could not leave material there, there is no storage. So I mean as you pointed out So I mean, as you pointed out, the need for having exhibits similar to this in the museums and the like, this would be a welcome thing. Then the Charles Street Meeting House, the old church

Meeting House, the old church on Smith, up on the hill at Smith quarter will become shrines, and they would have, probably house our permanent exhibit. [Host] Has any attempt been made to to make this any kind of a national shrine? If, if the church is of considerable importance in the development, not only, say, of the Negro in this country but along with that the general history — ah, historical development of the Boston area — would there be be any possibility of having the church become a national monument? [Movitz] Such as the state house. [Movitz] Such as the state house. [Host] Such as the state house, exactly. [James Mitchell] Why, I think there is possibility. Leo Friedman in his book called for this before his death, this little church being made a shrine. And he pointed out quite well how the old room, Sunday school room

had been used to teach African children their ABCs, their ABCs, also teach adults to read English and teach the American dream, so to speak, just teach also Hebrew people in the church, they are right in the same school room, and also the abolitionists were organizing. You might well say, as Brother Lawrence says, the Civil war Civil War began there, the move to say free the negroes were fermented there. [Host] Lee Wirtenberg. [Host] Lee Wirtenberg. [Wirtenberg] In your effort to stress the worth, the value of art, the worth of the Negro artist, the fact that he can be successful, do you feel that it helps that to discuss the African origins, to

have any exhibits or displays of early African art to show a background of cultural development along unique African lines? [James Mitchell] Well I think that would be good to introduce America as a whole to this, This tie-in with African art and to have, for Americans as a whole to have a better appreciation of African art and its influence on art in general. And I think all Americans would benefit by this. See, once you start in with the Negro problem and you have success, you elevate everyone else, see. With every program that has been carried on we find that everyone has been elevated by this and everyone has learned even in our exhibit. We have brought forth in history things that many first families in Boston have learned quite a bit about their history and they begin to call us and say, well, they have

found something pertaining to their own history and they are holding to these things and introducing you to-- into exhibits exhibits so that they can be seen by all. [Host] Lee, before you ask your next question I was wondering whether in phrasing your question the way you just did, whether you felt that there were that there would be a natural influence of the African art on the contemporary Negroes' artist's production. [Wirtenberg] Well I was -- I wanted to get Mr. Mitchell's comment about that. I know that some views of the Negro in America today stress the relationship of that community with Africa, and others stress the fact that the Negro after the Civil War was going along his- his own path, his African origins are almost

irrelevant at this time, that he is far more an American without any hyphen whatsoever than other hyphenated Americans sometimes are, with less attachment to Africa than the Irish-American to Ireland or what have you, the French- American to France, or what have you. So therefore I say that I am not sure myself whether there are any characteristics of the Negro Artist today that do have any direct or even indirect relation to African sources. It's that far back and it's that far disconnected in his actual cultural operation today. [Host] You know I would, if you'd allow me -- [Mitchell] I would like.. I think this is right, I think Negroes finding more and more that they are Americans first and foremost, and that they have with Africa. And this is a total loss.

[Host] Well further than that, [Host] Well, further than that, Mr. Mitchell, I would think that an artist functioning in our contemporary world functions as an artist and not as, you know, any any nationality or race, he just does what he does the way he does it because of many, many factors. [Mitchell] Yes. But along that line, I think that we do not make use of the many, you know, cultures that we have coming in, full use of, I'd say along this line that we, like every other American lost there and we should have retained the African contact. We should have retained the Indian contact, play a more important role in our lives, see because Negroes are tied in quite closely with the Indian people too and their culture. This- all these should blend to form the American culture, I think, and we are

affected by this too. Now we- there's a movement on to bring about this contact with Africa again. [Wirtenberg] But hasn't there been an almost natural mixing of these different cultures, and doesn't it show up in the art and in the writing to some extent? Certainly in music we have a fine example of the influence of African music. [James Mitchell]Yeah, you have it in art, and I think I heard a professor tell the story that the Negro, you know, well, as you say, you shouldn't- I don't feel a thing along these lines, this is what has happened -- the African art is being taught to the Negro now by other, say, maybe in some instance by white teachers. [Host] I mean isn't this a false imposition. No? Let's take a young musician. He wants to play jazz, he wants to be involved. Well he is, he is naturally going to draw on-

on resources that he may not know the origin of, but nevertheless are built into the musical form. And I don't see how we can look at contemporary art today without you know reading into it influences from all over the world. Ed Movitz. Ed Movitz. [Movitz] Well, we teach our students about the Renaissance. Now the Renaissance is about, in a way, in a way, is about as far from our current society or the society that these students recognize from day to day. The Renaissance is as far from the current society of these everyday students as Africa is to today's Negro, yet we insist on teaching them about the Renaissance. Well, it seems to me that it would follow that the Negro does have this heritage, even though he is so many generations removed. And that,

considering the particular situation with which we are confronted, that is, almost as though the Negro community must be nurtured, if you will, in order to, in order to more quickly assume its- its place in our culture, that anything that would contribute to the building of the Negro community, both as an ethnic group as well as realizing their- their own artistic heritage as well as, as the integration within the general American culture. Then to show negroes, "Look, this is part of your culture, these objects which, as a matter of fact influenced to a great extent the painting of the West and of Western society, this is part of your background also, if not

more so." [Wirtenberg] I don't think there's [Wirtenberg] I don't think there's any conflict between these arguments. Argument one is that no heritage should be lost. And argument two is that no artist should operate as if he is totally dominated by any individual heritage. An artist is living in the world as a, as a total place. And if he sets himself up to be involved only with a small part of it, he's not living in the whole world. On the other hand, if he ignores a part of it, he also is not living in the whole world. [Movitz] Well, I would tend to disagree with that. I think that, I tend to feel in our society today, the way things are today in the art world, that if an artist was born into a particular heritage and carries this heritage with him, then he is-- then he has an advantage, because he will have something to say which will be that much more personal and that much more painted.

Not painted, pointed or poignant or concentrated, whereas on the other hand most artists today, the only heritage they have is a very general kind of American culture. In other words, it isn't specifically very strongly Negro, or it isn't very strongly Irish, or it isn't very strongly -- well I was going to say Indian, but possibly the Indians still have been able to maintain a lot of this. I maintain that an artist going into the arts with a strong ethnic or cultural heritage has- has an advantage rather than a disadvantage. I suppose it could be argued as you say both ways but that's my thinking. [Host] I think it can be argued both ways, I disagree with you. ways, I disagree with you. [Mitchell] I think here what we find is that we said we were attempting to re-introduce the Negro artist to his community last year, and in this

way we started there, but also in doing so we introduced him to his heritage which includes the African, and this is a weak point, so we say we wanted to be strong as on the whole all cultures, you make use of all the cultures here. Then this is the weak point, we find to be the weak point, we bring this up. We strengthen this image, and the image has been bad, because even the use of a Negro subject, there's been a shying away of this, so I presume the Negro as he is. There's been a shying away of this, and this as a whole. So if we could change this, you understand, this is the image just beginning to be changed. You know on television, on sign boards, mannequins in the windows and what have you, and use of Negro subjects in art is commonplace, begins to be commonplace. You're seing Negro subjects in exhibits that did create a fervor, no matter who painted it. Even in the Museum of Fine -- I mean the

arts festival say, two years ago I heard a woman in front of me said "she must be Mexican." See, as long as people are making these statements-- [Host] The subject of the painting? [Mitchell] Subject of the painting was Negro, a Negro woman. [Host] And somebody said it must be... [Mitchell] And somebody said she must be Mexican because they are not accustomed to seeing Negro subjects in these exhibits. [Wirtenberg] Move this -- at a certain time if you would move that same painting to, just to show you how broad the problem is, to Southern California, somebody might have remarked "hmm, must be Negro". [laughter] [Host] Would, in the museum as it develops, would you think that you would try to to develop, this is along the lines of what we've just been talking, a section of African art specifically, as opposed to historic American Negro art? [Mitchell] I didn't catch that. [Host] In the museum, would you devote part of the museum to African art as

well as historic American Negro art? If we're talking about the heritage of the Negro now. [Mitchell] This we will do. I mean, this is something that has been in progress for a long time around here, to introduce. Once we, you, begin to sense your own value, then you search for similar values, and you're opening to the world as a whole, and then you'll bring in this, the African art. [Host] Lee Wirtenberg. [Wirtenberg] Are there any substantial Negro artists who have developed in other foreign-- foreign countries, France or what have you? In an environment which might have nurtured them better than they've been nurtured in America? [James Mitchell] Well there are many artists in France, well I think we can say-- I can't name names, this must have happened because this has been the story with American artists. [laughter] [Wirtenberg] So it would naturally fall.

[Host] When do you hope that your museum will be under way strongly, James Mitchell? [James Mitchell] Well I think that we will have some program starting in March, the active research starts in March, the announcements will be made on that. [Host] And the exhibition at the library opens when? [Mitchell] It opens February the 13th it will be set up and it will be open there for a week, through the 20th, and the 20th we have Lawrence Dunbar Reddick, a professor and former curator of the Schomburg collection. He will speak at the Central Library in the lecture hall. That's February 20th at 3 p.m. [Host] James Mitchell, thank you very much for joining us this evening on studio talk. [Mitchell] Thank you Rick.