Massachusetts Viewpoint; M.c.a.d.

Welcome to Massachusetts viewpoint. The other day Governor Peabody received a report of the findings of the commission he appointed to study the workings of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination. Father William Keneally Boston College School of Law is chairman of the study commission and its members included Professor Mark Wolfe of Harvard University's School of Law. Professor Leonard Fein of Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Mr. Harvey president of the Lincoln filing center at Tufts University and misled on the right laboratory of Community Psychiatry or medical school. This commission presented the report to ex-governor Peabody in a meeting at the governor's office. The study commission concludes that quote discrimination is more than a haphazard incident the result of individual lapses or purely private fault. The commission said that we are painfully aware that the anti-discrimination laws of the Commonwealth are often at variance with deeply held private practices and that though those prejudices have worked their way into many of the institutions of our

society the public commitment to their elimination as expressed in the laws is a most significant beginning. But said the commission if we are serious about that commitment the laws must be comprehensively imaginatively and energetically defended. That is the task of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination. The report made recommendations with respect to the commission in three major areas. Individual complaints commission initiated complaints and other considerations such as education research advisory councils and so forth. This evening our panel on Massachusetts viewpoint is going to discuss the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination. How can it be made more effective. This discussion comes at a particularly interesting time as we have a new administration in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. And as we have a new chairman of the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination Mr. Malcolm Weber. Mr. Weber is with us tonight. As is the Reverend William J can nearly as

day of Boston College Law School who served as the chairman of the committee to investigate and look into and make recommendations with the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination. Representing the press we have Miss Muriel Knight reporter for The Boston Roxbury city knows Mr. James Mason reporter of the Springfield Union in Springfield Massachusetts and also Mr. William a reporter for The Boston Herald. Well in view of the work ladies and gentlemen of the commission to study the workings of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination I think we have much to talk about this evening and many questions to ask especially in view of the report that was submitted to former governor Peabody a very few days ago. And I wonder whether we may call upon you as chairman of this commission to look into the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination. I want to whether you would start off by spending a few minutes in briefly summarizing the report of your group.

Well Dr. Gibson I think I might say in preface to my remarks that the study commission which I was honored to be chairman put in only six weeks we were appointed in November 16th we had to file our report before the end of the year. And we worked pretty much day and night during that time. We held more than a dozen meetings with interested groups. We held a public hearing. We listened to something more than 40 witnesses all told. Many of whom were intimately connected with the work of the MC a day we received written opinions from a number of interested individuals and community organizations and we read a great deal about the work of similar commissions in other states. And during our investigation I want to say that the members of the Massachusetts commission on administering against discrimination both present passing them members were extremely cooperative. In fact the great enthusiasm and cooperation of the commission staff

and interested groups led our study commission to feel there was a great hope for translating the ideals of the Commonwealth into some practical reality in the years ahead. Now as you indicated Dr. Gibson the report is divided into three sections one entitled The individual complaint the second the commission initiated complaint and the third in title. Other considerations of miscellaneous character. Let me address myself in these. Opening moments to the first to the individual complaint the laws are set up so that a person who feels that he or she has been discriminated against may go to the commission file a written complaint alleging discrimination. The commission then will verify the complaint and begin the process if it finds there is probable cause to believe there is merit to the complaint of conciliation with the alleged discriminator. This may settle the matter. If it

doesn't the commission may hold a public hearing and then make orders which of course can be appealed to the court. However one difficulty is a reason with regard to the processing of the individual complaint and that apparently has been some disagreement among past commissioners as to what is meant by finding probable cause to credit the allegations of the complaint. Some commissioners apparently believed that in order to find out there was probable cause to begin the process the commission had to find practically proof of discrimination. Now this is wrong. The probable cause which begins the process of conciliation to the hearing and so on really is similar to what the grand jury finds when it indict someone. Namely there is sufficient probability of an offense to warrant putting the defendant to the intervenes of

the conciliation or the hearing procedure. It does not mean a finding of guilt. We felt that if the commissioners all had a uniform concept of what probable cause means the whole procedure would be speeded up enormously and speed in this area is of the essence. The housing market particularly selling of houses renting an apartment is extremely fluid and apartment is open one day will be gone the next and so on. This is true to a lesser extent of the employment field. So a good part of our report the first part is deals with the question of speed in handling individual complaints and that is focused upon and accurate. Concept of what probable cause means and the desirability of having all commissioners have the same concept of probable cause. Let me go to the second thing I was worried about fighting bravely and that is the question of the

commission initiated complaint. There is some twenty six state commissions similar to the MC A Day in Massachusetts only five of them including Massachusetts has the statutory authority to initiate a complaint on its own motion even when there is no individual complainant coming to it for relief. The states which do not have this power. Many of them have been pleading with their legislators to give it to them. For the most part unsuccessfully although the New York Commission which does not have the power. Hope that will soon get it. The reason why the state commissions want this power and presumably the reason why the Massachusetts Commission has it is because practical experience has taught the various state commissions that the processing of individual complaints along will simply not break down the barrier of discrimination which is such a disgrace to our society and

for reasons such as this. Many of the people who are the most oppressed victims of discrimination are poor or sometimes ignorant illiterate. They don't know about the law. Secondly they distrust and are afraid of governmental agencies. Thirdly they are terrified of the thought of retaliation by their employers and sometimes by their neighbors. But even if this didn't exist the number of complaints which would come wouldn't make an appreciable mark in breaking down the ingrained patterns of discrimination by race and religion which infect our society. Therefore. The power of the commission to initiate a complaint is very important. For instance that's been the experience in many state commissions that Negroes for instance bring individual complaints only against companies which employ some negroes. And you never get a complaint from a negro against a company or rarely do which employs no niggas a

tall or afraid would approach such a company. The power of the commission to initiate a complaint then can be directed towards a well-known pattern of discrimination against a large industry. A labor union a large corporation a large company which employs many men and processing that complaint publicizing the results will then make known to the depressed minority the fact that there are jobs open. So the use of this power which Massachusetts here has. It has been used to some extent by the commission. We recommend that it be used far more vigorously far more constantly as a means of effecting in a better way the purposes of the commission and the policy of the Commonwealth. I don't want to take any more time the initial presentation but I think this leads into the heart of our report. But it certainly does father and I appreciate very much your outlining those two points and stressing them in your brief opening comments.

I would now like to ask for the views of Malcolm Weber who is the new chairman of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination. He replaced a Mrs. A noted Mahoney who to the best of my recollection served for the last 18 years and was the first and the only commissioner to down to the present time. So you have taken over after a very distinguished. Public Servant in Massachusetts has contributed many years and has served as a pleasure to have you with us tonight and I'd like Mr. Weber if I may to have you comment on what the I'm going to call this the study group with respect to the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination instead of study commission because I think we can overdo the word commissions and I. But you you know about the report of course and I've worked with these people in preparing their in their study and I'd like to have your observations about this report to the former governor with respect to the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination to weapons.

Well I'd like to first say that we have four members of our commission the report was released yesterday of the commissions of not having up in the study this I have not discussed this with the other commissioners to date. I have studied it myself in some detail. But the comments I'll make here will be an individual viewpoint not necessarily a viewpoint of the four commissioners I hope that's understood. Yes. On the committee itself I know worked very hard I appeared before them I know long hours of the night that they worked into that other caliber and certainly the report itself that came out bears out my confidence in the people who were appointed to this commission I consider it up an amazing job for six weeks. Of work Lee It was an intensive six weeks I know when it does aide us in meeting the shifting scene in civil rights. We are in a period where the civil rights field is moving very very rapidly. There is a question whether any official state body

can move rapidly enough to meet the needs of the day we can only attempt to meet this problem. The sense that we are hemmed in by certain things because we are a state agency. Levy I'd like to comment on this commission instituted complaint a little. I think this is one area where I have some thoughts. We have in the past year. Rather intensively moved into the conference area of this same problem this individually instituted complaint by the Commission we have done quite a good deal of this we have instituted on affidavits we've instituted on statements we've instituted on evidence we have used this method. But on the pattern of discrimination problem we have primarily worked through conference where conference will

not work. I think that the commission has to do with complaint is correct and legal. Let me give a specific instance of this in a community some miles from here in the Commonwealth. There was a plan of employing some three to four hundred people. This plant had no non-whites whatsoever working in the factory even though it was situated in a predominantly negro area. This conference was called with the people from this factory. We found that their hiring policy was one in which they required recommendations from their present employees. They did not advertise for help but circulated the jobs for their present employees and we got new employees only through this method. Now this specifically ruled out non-whites unless it just happened by accident that was a real social relationship between a nonwhite in a white family. But not all effect this ruled

out non-whites. Now in conference with this factory the Union and the factory agreed to change this policy. They are now using for notifying negro organizations Urban League and the division of employment security of all job openings and these are now open. Now it is my feeling that if we can do the work through this method. That this is an effective way to do it. If we had or if this company had not agreed I think correctly a commission to do the complaint would be correct. But I feel that where the conference method will work we should first try this. Well that's only one observation about this report and I know that the members of the press will call upon you for some others. And speaking of the press I would like first of all to ask Miss Muriel KNIGHT REPORTER of the Boston Roxbury said you know what her reaction

is to both the comments that have been made by Father Keneally and Mr. Weber and also with respect to the report that was submitted studying the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination. Miss Knight. Dr. Gibson as far as the report is concerned I attended a public hearing held in the state house and I'm glad to see that quite a few of the recommendations that were brought forth that night are incorporated in the report. I would like to ask a question if I may please. Commissioner WEBER Do you think the powers of the MC I.D. should be broadened to include other areas which don't come under housing education or employment. I believe that we have a concern in all those areas which concern minority groups. I do not believe as a concern we should be limited to specifically the area of employment housing education

public accommodation. I believe that we need layers on with area redevelopment authorities relocation people from urban renewal poverty program. I believe that that we should give them enough staff and budget to perform this function. I believe we should perform this function. We do have problems of staff and budget which do of necessity limit our activities. Man dejected we have probably a weapon that the New York Commission's budget is almost exactly 10 times as large as the Massachusetts budget almost ten times as large. The staff is at least ten times as Love least. Well I would like now to turn the microphone over to Mr. James Mason the report of the Springfield Union.

You come from a another part of the state either from what observations What reactions have have been out there and what questions would you like addressed to Father Keneally Mr. Webber Wright on one observation certainly is that we in Springfield had a chance to see the new chairman of MC ab work for about a year and I think I can pretty much prophesied that he's going to be a very active and they could you know one point that I would be particularly interested in. Is this question of testing I don't know whether that term is generally understood. But suppose I suppose I could ask first. Will you encourage civil rights groups Mr. Weber to develop test cases for and see a day what would you be for just Weber after that would you decide to outline a little more fully Mr. Mason what what you mean by testing you know and then possibly give us an example so that that might be put in this kind of context suppose a restaurant or a business is suspected of discriminatory hiring practices.

Will the NCAA day or do you do you would you personally favor Mr. Webb or the NCAA d calling in Congress of Racial Equality or National Association for the Advancement of Colored People or other groups to set up a test complaint by say sending a negro to apply for a job in this establishment and therefore studying the pattern of evidence where you could determine whether or not there really really is discrimination there. I don't want to answer this with a flat no. I would first want to say that I don't feel that the activity of the individual civil rights group can be directed criticized or anything else by the MC ID their individual groups where individual groups. I firmly believe in testing. Contrary to the opinion of many civil rights groups cases which come to work Commission which

are tested are handled in a normal manner we when we receive a complaint. If this complaint we know was a test complaint it is still handled in the same manner as any other complaint. It is true that if it's a test on a housing accommodation we know that people actually don't want the accommodations on a final order. We cannot demand this housing we cannot insist these people put in. We put in but we have always handled these cases and I'm glad they have this opportunity to get on the record with this fact because it seems to be a misconception. However I do believe in the commission itself. Having the power to test I believe that testing if by the commission is a device whereby we could gather evidence. And if we could prove compliance. This does not mean that we would go on fishing expeditions I don't believe in this. I believe that where we feel a test is necessary to prove the case. When a complaint has already been registered

that we should have the right to send a person out to test and gather this evidence. I also believe that when we have received a letter of compliance which is a normal way to close off a case that we should have the right at some future time to send someone out there to make a test and see whether truly we have a limited discriminatory practice. I want to carry this just a little further. I don't believe that we can ask volunteer organizations on a statewide level to do this. To do this correctly we must have control over the test and control over the test to me means that it would be made by commission personnel or possibly by people who we can pay a fee because if we pay that person we can control the test. If we do not do. Play the person I fail to see how we can conclude we control the test that is made. So I would only say that the civil rights

organizations wish to test. That certainly is their right and their privilege. But the commission testing. I would much prefer would be made by our own personnel or personal and or our own control. I believe father clearly has some ideas on this subject. Well I would like to say Mr. Webb either as you know of course that in a report the study group advocated the use of the technique of testing by that we mean the use of personality abstracting for the moment one of the commission personnel or civil rights organizations personnel to where there is suspected discrimination simply to gather evidence whether there is discrimination or not let me give an example of it a year or so ago when a civil rights seminar at the Boston College Law School one of the participants decided got interested in discrimination in housing particularly rental housing. He picked up a copy of the Sunday paper one day and he at random picked 20 phones renting apartments. He called up the

firms. Requesting or asking Oh he had seen the advertisement partners of a given character given price and so on. He I missed writing now for the moment. Whether he used mental reservations or not. But over the phone he said he was visiting professors at the Masters into the technology going to teach for a semester. He was married had two children he won the patent at such a price range. Did they have one. Eight. He then he said before you answer I must tell you I am a Negro. Eight teams of the twenty or so advertisers apart and so they didn't have any now to say well maybe if you command subsequently a friend of his made the same call similar substantial inquiries without mentioning race or color and all twenty had the apartment. This is one technique of testing this establishes a policy of discrimination over a group of people. However I

would like to say this Mr Weber's already mentioned it. Need of the study group and other commissions Mr Weber just said believes in indiscriminate testing. Fishing expedition to Harris businessman or real estate people where there is no basis for suspecting discrimination. Furthermore the very technique of testing needs to be distinguished for instance. I think it would be grossly unfair for a group of testers to waste hours and hours of a real estate brokers time when he's being paid on commission and they do not have a bona fide applicant for an apartment simply to subject him after all he's probably working as a Porter's family leading him to think that there's a bonafide applicant for apartment and causing him to spend hours of his time without any compensation I think would be grossly unfair. Well I'm afraid I'm going to be accused of discriminating against the Boston Herald. I have not introduced missed way McCarthy of the Boston Herald yet and I'm sure that he has much to say and I had to ask him this Massachusetts viewpoint this evening I had

something to ask and it came up here tonight something that's always bothered me about the way the commission functions Mr. Weber mentioned that factory that had employees three to four hundred a negro section where there were no negroes employed. It would seem to me that that is presumptive evidence of discrimination. But he says that they went to a conference rather than making a complaint right away. Well if there is a law against discriminating discrimination in housing education and employment why doesn't the commission just call the person in and I asked them how do they plead guilty or not guilty and put the burden on them to prove that they're not discriminating. Well you're not asking me that you hask Mr. Weber that I think you are a father Keneally I think Mr. Ebert prepared on that. Yes because it's been our position

that we should that our chief function is to eliminate the discriminatory practice. This has been the proverbial the accepted method of operation. I was at your function to enforce the law. Our function to enforce the law. If we had any evidence whatsoever that a Negro Upham applied another would this is the question of the individual complaint versus the pattern again. If an individual had gone to that back he applied for a job that was open not receive that job. This is an individual complaint. This circumstance did not arise. It just it comes that came to the attention of the commission that this plant had no negroes working in it. Now actually to my viewpoint we had she did exactly the same thing. By the conference method as we did would by the complaint method if we made a complaint based on the the pattern the lack of negroes in the in the play

I would say if this did not achieve its purpose of a limb in aiding what was in fact a discriminatory practice even though there wasn't a specific instance of discrimination. If this was not a limb unaided I feel it is due to have a complaint by the commission fully justified should be prosecuted with the full force of the law. But I only made the point that we use the conference method first in this case that somehow to my thinking that this should be the first step. The conference method versus the complete method on the patterned basis that seems to me like a police officer arresting a man for a robbery and having sufficient evidence to believe that this man committed the robbery. But then on his word that he wouldn't do it again. Not prosecuting him for his offense and still a felon offense to discriminate

whether it's continued on not this. I think your father Keneally I think as a lawyer will want to comment on this further. This to me. It is the one of the the essence of this problem. How long can he get away with it. No I don't think it's this. Because it was not a discriminatory policy per se. In other words there was no official position by this factory that they would not employ negro This was not an official position by any means. The position was we will hire only on the recommendation of our present employees which results in that defacto discrimination when presented with this problem. If these people this particular factory recognise the problem and the limits that we are achieving everything by the Conference method that we could buy the

complete method were given the same things we did not only rely on the man saying to us well we won't do it any more. This is not the result of the case the result of the case is there are seven jobs presently opened open these are offered. These are listed through negro organizations through Urban Leagues the. We also have an agreement that for the first year all jobs would be listed with these organizations. That they would make. Well I won't go through all the steps but there was a 12 step program put in to integrate this particular factory with full agreement by the union in full agreement by the manufacturer. Perhaps you're correct that a complaint would be more effective but I fail to see what we would have achieved more with the complaint than the conference. I say where this cannot be achieved with the conference then I think the complaint is that this is

John Gibson at the Lincoln filing center at Tufts University and the saving on Massachusetts viewpoint our panel is discussing the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination how can it be made more effective. Only a few days ago a study group under the leadership of the Rev. William J Keneally a stay of Boston College School of Law submitted to ex-governor Peabody a report. The Massachusetts Commission against discrimination with recommendations on how it could be made more effective and also recommendations on what it has done and where it might go in the years that lie ahead. In discussing this report by the Keneally has led off telling a little bit about some of the basic concepts and ideas in the report followed by Mr. Malcolm Weber who is the new chairman of the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination representing the press are Miss Muriel Knight reporter for The Boston Roxbury City News. Mr. James nation reporter for the Springfield Union and Mr. Wei McCarthy reporter for The Boston Herald.

Before our station identification Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Weber were having a discussion about the case of a factory which in terms of its own hiring practices seem to have only the one race represented there it was did not have any Negroes in the mung the employees and Mr. McCarthy was raising some questions about the role of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination and looking into this matter I was sorry to interrupt you Mr. McCARTHY I want to turn the microphone immediately back over to you. I have one just one more question on this line of questioning. What about the guy across the street who sees his competition engaging in discriminatory practices and in effect getting away with it and then suffering only the inconvenience of having a conference with the commission then being forced to. Integrators plant but knowing that he can get away with it without penalty until it's time for him to commit to the commission for a conference.

Well I don't know if the agreement to integrate was not made. This man would not get away without penalty. The point is the only point I'm trying to make is that I have felt in the past and we have operated under this that the conference method is the first method. This is not the final but that a complaint would be instituted harmless if a true program of integration was not going into into this in this play is that is it possible that this civil at this conference stage also has a couple of other functions. Seems to me that legislation having to do with civil rights often has a danger or runs the danger of violating either civil rights and end and repairing the damage of one group of civil rights. You know what I mean is it possible that in the conference stage Mr. Weber of the

community that the commission which is supposed to have some element of objectivity can determine just whose civil rights are. Where is Mike. I would like to respond to that because. Mr McCarthy's initial question that first shocked me although he clarified it somewhat by his second question is totally different police officer arresting a robber and letting him go if he promises not to do it again. We have particularly advocated the technique of testing where there is some suspicion in order to arrive at a probable cause to put the alleged discriminator to the inconvenience of going through the process. This is only basic fairness in our judicial system whether it be strictly in the law courts or in a commission against discrimination. However let us go beyond In assume that testing or other devices are common knowledge establishes the probable cause. Just somewhat as I say in the way the grand jury when it indicts says

there's probable cause to put the man to the inconvenience of a trial assumed that this has been established. Then all the state laws against discrimination provide someone different from the ordinary criminal process a period or a session for conciliation. What it is like really is the informal. Conference that goes on freaking the law courts to settle a case before it goes to trial. As a matter of fact the study group has recommended that if it appears in the conference period that the alleged discriminator is a discriminator. If he's a flagrant one repeated one that not only will he be forced to go to a public hearing. If he does not conform. But the suggestion is made that he be requested

at the penalty of a public hearing to agree to a consent decree that is to say it was drawn up between the commission and the alleged violator. A formal document in which he not only agrees to repair the damage he's already done the individuals but formally agrees to cease and desist from any discrimination even against unnamed individuals in the future. This weather is called a consent decree because all both parties agree to it. This is then filed in the Superior Court. If they're after. The discriminator performed another act of discrimination he is then in contempt of court and is apt to be sentenced for contempt of court without even a jury trial. Now if he does not agree to such a consent decree then he will go to a public hearing in the public hearing he can be ordered to do the same thing and that order can be filed with the court and he is again subject to punishment under the contempt powers of the Superior Court.

So that I we advocated a wider use of the device of a consent decree to put some real teeth into the conciliator conciliation agreement. This has not been done I don't know where the hits. Been done more than once or twice in the past but we think that it would be a very effective device. It would safeguard the rights of the alleged discriminator. He's not moved against unless there's a sufficient probable cause to put him to this inconvenience but once that has occurred and then it develops in the conciliation period he's a flagrant violator of frequent violator always kind of measures and will not cooperate with the commission. Then he has his choice. OK we'll go to a public hearing. Now they don't want that this is bad publicity for Ecuador. So maybe they will choose the consent decree rather than the

publicity of a public hearing because of the extent to create self as public to this extent. It's a public docket and I have advocated this in our report last night. I have another question. Commissioner Weber two years ago in 1962 a complaint was made to the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination concerning. Discrimination in public housing. What were the findings. Sorry the case the store opens attempt number one being held open. That was finding its mate I could say this much I believe that we're finding is made but since these findings required compliance over a long over a period of time there's been held open and will not be closed until full compliance was made with the order but was ever a probable cause filed. I believe it was on this night but I would have to check the case to finally be

in order. On the other hand the bending of the law that's right had to be probable cause that there had to be more prior to 962. You mean that no one no member of the commission was aware that discrimination existed in public housing. I was a member of the commission before 1962 I just don't think it's fair for me to comment on the activities at that time. Why don't you think that just from 1962 to the present time there's been quite a lapse of time that there should have been found and done about it by now. I think something has been done about it from what's in the information right now. However it with the agreement of civil rights organizations that brought the case has not been closed. They have agreed to this. Mr. Mason listen I was in this fight on this very night. Listen I mentioned earlier asked earlier about the prospect of your broadening the horizons of M.C. idea activity. One of the

real tough issues in this state I believe in this city and in Springfield and possibly elsewhere is the question of the fact o school segregation. Is there any way that you both feel that the NCAA has a role to play and in this question of the fact of segregation coming from Springfield this is an intriguing question that we have really not come to grips with this question. I personally feel that we have. It's an interest and should have some role in this area. However there are limitations of the law and I doubt if we will come to grips with this problem until outside of a mediation and interest. A gathering of information. But I doubt if we will come the further group for this problem until a complaint is actually brought the complaint is

processed with the attorney general to make sure it comes under the law as it is written. It must be understood that we can only work in the framework of the law as written and a school problem. Becomes a matter of whether this is a discriminatory problem whether the flak though it comes back somewhat to this factory of whether a de facto segregation in the schools is a discriminatory practice or as a result of housing discrimination. I would not want to make a statement on this I feel this is something that we would need a ruling from the attorney general. Well of course a Massachusetts commissioner of education Dr. Carrington has convened a blue ribbon panel to study racial imbalance in the schools in the Commonwealth and the Lincoln filing center in Boston University both have been very deeply involved in the study the final report is going to be out and submitted to the

panel within a month's time. And I think that from that point on the recommendations of this panel whatever those recommendations may be would certainly be of great interest to the Massachusetts Commission against you know it's just common to write it on this that at the time that this blue ribbon panel was set up there was all of the same session of the legislature. There was also a bill before the legislature which would have made the m c a d the judge of whether steps taken to reduce racial imbalance were educationally feasible I believe was the way that this bill was phrased. This bill was defeated. The blue ribbon panel was set up. At that time which was already a rather clear indication from the legislature that this had that moment. This was the way they believe they should be handled. I would like everyone respond on this issue of defectors. School segregation in the Boston schools. It was a matter which engaged my interest and attention

quite considerably in the past year and a half. If we assume that the school segregation and Boston racial imbalance is strictly de facto that is to say it was not caused by any official rule or policy of the school committee or school administrators but came about as far as they were concerned. Adventitious Lee because of the segregation in housing which they had nothing to do with. This then is what is strictly called in legal terminology and sociological terminology. De facto segregation as distinguished from jury segregation which would mean the segregation in schools was the policy or the fault of the school committee. Now the Boston School Committee took the position that de-facto segregation which they well they didn't take that position they refused to admit it. But this racial imbalance that they could hardly deny was not an educational problem and therefore none of their business since they did not cause it.

To my mind this is a peculiar stance to take. No other school administrators that I know of not in New York not in Chicago has not in Philadelphia has ever taken that position even though it's not the fault is not owing to a policy of the school committee. It does constitute an educational problem. If a hurricane blows down a school house this is not the fault of the school committee but it does constitute an educational problem and therefore they have the power and I think the duty to do something about it. As a matter of fact the blue ribbon commission was to Canon's Commission in its preliminary report last summer. I made the definite finding that the extreme racial imbalance which exists in a number of the Boston Public Schools is a deleterious educational fact and does constitute an educational problem and therefore is within the power and discretion of the school committee to do something about and presumably within their duty it

also. Now however. It does not appear to be within the enforcement authority of the MC ID. It is within the discretionary power duties of the school committee. However as Mr. Weber said Very well certainly it would be a fine thing if the MC ID and the school committee would get together and admit it's an educational problem and use their brains to find some reasonable solution to it. In other words go through the same effort at least which New York Chicago and other cities are doing now. But I would say there was one thing where the MC ID is in a jurisdictional way involved that is to say take rock spray it used to be the New England Yankee section of the city gradually by people moving it became pretty thoroughly an Irish section. Then it became pretty federally a Jewish section and now it's pretty thoroughly. A negro section all this time

without changing the school lines. However why is it such a predominantly negro ghetto now. It's because of discrimination and housing and in jobs now discrimination in housing and in jobs is the business of the school. MCI did so efficient activity on the MCI deal within its jurisdiction will help the situation but not be the total solution. The school committee has to get on the ball as well. I agree with Mr. Robert I agree with this quite emphatically. I only want to comment on the report which is Section C the advice and provide assistance to public school systems to bring about a greater degree of racial balance and quality education. I would be dull lighted if the commission could do this. However the present staff present capabilities. I don't believe we have this capability at

the present time we don't have the educational experts in the field to do it. I'm also wondering Mr. Weber if the present majority of the Boston School Committee would allow you to cooperate even if you wanted to. I was going to raise that question with respect to Springfield since Mr. Mason from the Springfield Union the asked the question in the first place. What do you think might be the role of the MC ID in Springfield given the very difficult situation that has existed there for some time and the legal action has been taken with respect to education problems de facto segregation in Springfield. Well when I asked the question of Mr. whether in fact the community has I think a blind because I have no solutions or particular suggestions I know that Mr. Weber in the case of defacto segregation and frankly every other issue has stressed strongly the. Maybe the evangelical function of the M C A D which maybe isn't that dramatic but I think

extremely important. In bringing together. Civil rights groups and labor groups and restaurant employees and anybody else anybody who potentially can. Aid in this question of. Equal opportunities and so forth. And presumably in the field a defacto segregation possibly the NCD could have a function here but I don't know. May I ask one other question right I missed most. Mr. Weber is. Staid and generally pretty used the. Report. The study report. But I wondered if the report gave you any surprises. Mr. Weber or if within this essentially fine document you found things that you object to or that you don't agree with. Well I haven't found anything that I definitely object to. I find some things which I

feel will be very difficult to implement. This I have found I don't have any great source of argument with the direction or the things that the report is designed to achieve. There are some areas which. Are going to be difficult administratively to institute but this is a problem that I have to think through. Also of course again I have to repeat there are four commissioners. The other four may not agree with all recommendations I think. Well what we have to do with this report now is every commissioner must study this report. We must decide based on priorities what we desire to institute. There must be priorities on this institution because we cant put it all in at once it has no question about this. We don't have this this kind of we have this kind of miracle workers

but so weve got to set up priorities within these priorities and we must see with our present staff. Within our present budget what and how we can best implement the major part of this report. I think this is where we have to go from here on the report. I'd like to say Mr. Weber that the study group was quite aware that this was going to pose severe problems upon you as far as staff and personnel goes. If we had had more time we would have attempted to estimate the increase in the budget and increase in the staff which would enable you officially to do the things which we recommended and hoped you might do. We did not have the time we had actually drawn up figures tentative figures basing these figures upon budgets in other state commissions basing the figures upon increased personnel. But we felt that with the limited time we had specific

recommendations along this line would have been well could hardly be responsible and we were rather keenly aware that we shouldn't make off the kind of irresponsible specific recommendation but we realize very much your problem in this matter is because Mr. WEBER Do you have any concern that if you carry out these recommendations and. As ably as you can that the commission might go so far and so fast if there's any danger of the situation arising in Massachusetts like that in California which brought about Proposition 49 if we didn't use a backlash in Massachusetts will this make it better or worse. What will it do. Oh I think we always have to consider this. But the battle. I don't think we have a serious backlash in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I disagree with you very strongly but I haven't seen any evidence to make me think the backlash is real serious that there's some backlash of course we would.

It's about a degree I don't we degree is serious but I was in the past on referendum the 1963 bill passed and referendum do you think. I just don't know what I would like to just respond briefly to that. I live for two years in New Orleans and was well immersed in the racial problems of the deep south so I went then to for five years to Chicago and was involved the problem there so that I saw it firsthand. The attitude that it's a typical added to the Deep South and all the northern community with a more serious problem in Boston has. And I had the rather naive idea at the time that well of course in my native city is quite different things are much better. And then I return to Massachusetts a year and a half ago to be pretty bitterly dissolution and discouraged at the amount the widespread and the deep racial prejudice in Massachusetts. However with regard to your question Mr. McCarthy as to whether or not an active MC a diva would put into practice with a proper staff and budget all

or recommendations of the Study Group recommended. Whether or not that might result in such a backlash that you would have a Proposition 14 here as you had in California. We put that express question I think to every single group that we met not at the public hearing but to realtors to businessman to A.I.M. Chamber of Commerce to attorneys and so on. And while they recognize the amount of racial prejudice they felt that it wasn't that bad in Massachusetts. However what about the study group itself that they feel it was that bad message you know is bad enough but this is you California you know is Junior in Mississippi as far as this goes. KHALAF I shouldn't use probably pejorative terms like in Southern California particularly seems to collect people of rather odd view. Well. Not really. But we've talked tonight about day facto segregation in the

schools and we've talked about can decrease in employment. And I know that if I were a negro looking for a job I get cold comfort from being told that the guy who wouldn't give me the job has now been subject to a consent decree and if he doesn't give somebody else a job that he'll go to be held in contempt of court. Oh just a minute now he's obliged to give the job to you. Well maybe I have to do something else in the meantime. But I guess you don't know how many people have not been able to gain employment because of the policy of that factory we were talking about. And you don't know how many boys and girls have not been able to get education because of the facto segregation in the Boston public schools. And now there is something standing between this law and these people and what is it. I believe it is that this is that basically we are part of a severe social problem to try to take the M C A D and make it an

organization that can solve this horrible social problem as a result of two to three hundred years of discrimination is completely impossible. Is there another organization in the Massachusetts government that can do it. I think things like the poverty program I believe. Actions like Freedom House is making the social groups A B C D. I think you have to put all E's into the package to solve this kind of a problem. We can only deal in the areas in which the law allows us. I think we need the social workers and we need the whole works to solve this problem. We are only trying to solve part of it. I will never get back to just one second to this question of Proposition 14 where I want to pay tribute to one group we have in Boston. We have the only major Well we have the only real estate board in the country that has ever publicly supported a fair housing bill and as a board Boston board of realtors and I think that they should on the record here tonight be given

tribute for this and that they have. I have seen no signs that the Boston board of realtors will move away from their position of support of fair housing legislation. But I just get back a second emphasize that we are. We can we can meet the part of the problem which is the overt act of discrimination. I think we could open up employment we can aid in open up opening up housing. Certainly it's impossible and I feel incorrect and unfair to expect the MC ID by itself to meet this complete problem we just cannot do it. Well thank you very much Mr. Weber. As the new commissioner of the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination I can say that you are going to give the commission the group's leadership in the task which lie ahead and which have been suggested indeed by the record of the special study commission to review the functions and policies of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination.

Once again this report was submitted to former governor Peabody the group was under the leadership of Father Keneally a Boston law school. Boston College Law School and I personally would wish that the public would look at this report and give much more concern to the problems of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination and suggestions for its activities in the Commonwealth because here in lies and public support and public knowledge and public education of these kinds of problems I think some of these solutions perhaps which must be tackled by our society in the state. Our discussions this evening I've raised many points about the work of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination. And the new chairman of the commission has suggested that he and the commission are concerned with all areas dealing with discrimination and minority groups in the Commonwealth. We've talked much about the conference method about testing and about not using indiscriminate testing or making it a fishing expedition. We've talked about the relationship of the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination

and racial imbalance in the Commonwealth schools with I think a very interesting suggestion by Father Keneally that maybe it's time for the boards of educations of some of our towns and cities to sit down with groups like the Massachusetts Commission against discrimination especially the commission to discuss in a more positive vein what can be done about the factors that underlie defacto segregation in education.