Public Television Hearings

Where we can get together. I mean you give me a whole brand new set a rose you say and I could get this thing out in the needle and then wear out. I mean that to a certain point General when we were interested in this law have to begin to use a little practical common sense. I don't why don't we begin the right every sentence and say the same thing but in a different language only because we're overly cautious about our own particular interest. I'm afraid that when I like lose more than we gain and that's all I'm pleading for. We certainly are supporting the bill and this dialogue never occurred to me I'm bored as if you gave me a whole brand new set of rules and you didn't give me seven of five you gave me the six of them you through their eyes. Everything I want to go we want to make your earn your salary and another. I'd like to hear from you but you're a step

we take the bill. My feeling is whichever sort of words you use here you'll be doing the same things anyway. I will stick with the grammar as stated here. Sitting in the back this morning and listening to the commercial broadcasters and thinking about the competence that they bring to their work and the resources and I'm thinking about the people in our world the job they have to do and the resources that they have. I came up with a couple of columns which may or may not be exact statistics but they give ranges of arithmetic just to show the difference between people who are in the commercial field and people in the instructional television here. And since I spend roughly half of my time dealing in the commercial fields of television radio and advertising in half my time in education I've got a feel for the competence and quality of the people in both worlds. Starting off with the

kids which is the only place to start because that's what we're up to here. What is their experience of television. The average child today in the United States watches approximately 20 hours of television per week on commercial television. This figure of extended over is childhood to the point where he graduates from high school adds up to 15000 hours of viewing which is 3000 hours more time than he will have spent going to school in that time. But here's a bridge wake in front of the television set watching commercial television is approximately 20 hours. The average student in the United States in school per week watches 15 minutes of instructional television. Only 20 percent of the students are reached at all. And this 20 percent watch is for approximately 90 minutes and you divide 90 by the 20 percent than the average student. Any place

only sees 15 minutes of instructional television a week. The programming that the students see is on commercial television per half hour cost approximately $80000 and production costs some cost more. Some cost less. The production costs for the average half hour program being watched by students in school is less than one hundred fifty dollars so he lives in the skids a frantic world where his entertainment world or whatever appears on commercial television is not just entertainment it is produced for him by people with eighty thousand dollars for a half hour and then he goes to school where the real important things are supposed to be happening. And he sees programming which cost one hundred fifty dollars for a half hour to produce. And there is a difference not only in the budgeting but in the quality and competence and zap of the programs more intensively. Network commercials are produced for twenty five

thousand dollars per minute. Now miss the land talked very eloquently and very accurately about the generation gap. The other day and about the necessity of the schools keeping up with the real world I suggest this is an enormous problem which all of us would have learned a lot about last night by watching the CBS program on pop and rock and roll music a brilliant program. Unless we can close this confidence gap unless the people. All I'm suggesting is that we bring the educators into the real world where they can be the slightest bit competitive. The attention of the student. It's not even a real ball game now. What you get for one hundred fifty dollars per half hour is not very good instruction. Very good and all the rhetoric in the world about these new media and their power to do things for kids is going to be completely useless unless we implement this very unromantic area of television called School television because

nobody cares very much about it if you produce a real good television producer and you produce something for the public television corporation which goes out on the air at 9 o'clock in the evening. All your friends will be around to tell you what a great guy you are. The program scores if you produce stuff for kids in schools at 10:30 in the morning nobody ever knows that it happened only to kids. And I think that the role that we should be playing here in our play here is the talk on behalf of these kids who are in these classrooms seeing not very good program and eruptive father how would you ever meet that competition I follow you very very closely and I think you're absolutely right. Well I don't you don't hate the stupendous performances that they put on. Run into a great deal of money I know you're going to use for public funds of federal funds I suppose you can do it in such a grand scale. And what you're actually saying is that by comparison these kids are going to lose interest. They are those they have lost interest. And I get your point but Michael the Lemmer is how do we meet. Well I'm

just trying I'm not approving or I'm just trying to set out the facts as they are now because this is extremely important. Yes the schools the very media that we're talking about using here have created the greatest educational tension in the history of the world because the levels of competence and knowledge and everything are higher outside the classroom than they are in the classroom. This was never true before in 1900 this was not true. Now I don't suggest that because we have a gap of $80000 for a commercial television half hour on one hundred fifty four instructional half hour that we solve the problem by spending $80000 for the instructional half hour. Whatever the number is it's not 80000 and it's not one hundred fifty and I think that we need room to do programs with budgets of $5000 per half hour look what that would do. That's a budget of 30 times the magnitude of what is being done now. I would suggest that we would start to get into the ball game if we increase the budgets

just by the sort of the mansion. But I think until we do talk about more stations and more hardware is a waste of time it's the programming and the way the program is used by the teacher that really counts. I couldn't agree with you know and I think that that's where this public corporation religion direct is there are this is where we have a tremendous responsibility. And of course we've been talking in terms here of nine million dollars and it's generally admitted this is merely seed money. Well see all night of course is it clear that this will be the responsibility of the public corporation I don't think this is clear. I don't think it's intended at all until after the study has been made. That's correct Well if you're talking about instructional television you're right. Oh yeah kids in school right. Some of the questions should be asked by this study. Yeah that's right that's right.

Oh I would like to refer back to some of the testimony a week ago Friday by the superintendent of Atlanta and Dr. Baer from South Carolina without disagreeing with the Culkin. We do need better programs better production. A lot of what value our programs if they're not being used for to deal with critical educational problems the type of problems that were described in the previous testimony. I think the intent of some of the testimony here today is not to throw out Section 3 0 2. It's possibly for the people who are going to interpret it eventually to say we feel strongly. That you emphasize the word comprehensive and not the word particularly the Carnegie or the Carnegie Foundation in their in their report said this should be a study within the context of education. The reason they could not do anything with instructional television is that instructional television is not understandable within the context of broadcasting.

It's only understandable in relationship to what it means to the child in the teacher in the school. Now what is described here I think is a study not within the context fully of education of the problems we've got in America today. But to study within the context of media and broadcasting and I think the intent of this here is to say we think it's got to go further we've got critical problems in American education. These things relate to television relates. Dr Letson last week talked about the problems of the preschool child problems in the in the inner city. The problems with continuing education. We've got to relate these things to these problems. We have just completed 100 studies through the National Association of educational broadcasters with schools parochial schools military training institution using broadcasting open circuit and close circuit and the one generalization of the we could make is that the inadequacy the all the criticism of television today in these schools comes from the fact that they have no philosophy they don't understand how

this relates to their problems. They didn't grow up with the technology therefore that they have no feel for it it's foreign it's a problem in itself and in the words I think of Mr Minow and some of the others who call for a study comparable to Carnegie's. I think what they're trying to say this should be a high level study that has some people with some prestige value behind them who know education who say who provide a philosophy who say to the practicing school man this relates to your problems today would you like the language that you have to build. Yes. If it read said study shall be comprehensive in nature and shall include such items. Yes. As I said I didn't put the emphasis on these six subsections would say such study shall be comprehensive in nature and shall include such items as. Yes as I say I think I retained you think that that would fit your purpose a little

better than if we could include the word walk and I just had the knot doesn't get in the record. Yes or if you must say yes or no do you say faster if we can get the word educated to relate to the problems of today fine if not I think our intent is still the people who are going to interpret this what when when it is finally funded and making sure that they know that this is the plan I think that the report how to spell black out in pretty much some detail of yours. Yes I would like to second is one man and maybe surplusage but where we have had some experience using instructional television service as has been the case at Bradley University at Peoria Illinois and now for two years on two channels at the nutria Township High School East and Winnetka with three channels and at the Stirling Township High School in Stirling on I with one channel. We are beginning to identify certain advantages from that technology and I think.

Perhaps one of our concerns in emphasizing the feasibility of reference here to TFF is stands from the fact that we are beginning to get a feel for its advantages. There is one other point in reference to the educational television facilities act 1062 which I'm sure enters into the thinking of Commissioner Lee. Relative to the general interpretation that broadcast television is defined traditionally does not include under that act and that there perhaps is reason to think in terms of how that interpretation affects the qualification of applicants for federal aid in the future. If they are concerned with Ikea systems. And the only other the other point I wanted to mention Mr. Chairman is that when and after this the study gets underway I think

there's a good vehicle for this. This committee to be helpful. This is all I would hope that there were people wrestling with all the AMA groups and I mean after all look at the devotion and dedication that's represented here today. That's right I mean and I think one of my greatest and I think it would be a waste of talent if we disregarded this and I mean I don't mean to be on unduly flattering I mean after all arguing gauge yourself in an effort you do it is a public interest and you give the public the advantage of your time and your talent and at a very tremendous personal sacrifice and then it just disregard it. And that to me is not only discourteous I think it's a disregard of public responsibility and I would hope that these people would would study this in detail in depth and very exhaustive list. It needs to be done because I think that this is really one of the very very important elements of educational television and radio and whether it may be a little deviation in the sense that it's not

broadcasting as we generally know it to be the fact still remains that it's exactly along the lines of we're talking about where you are substituting a media in order to reach a broader spectrum of people and to give them the advantage that ordinarily they could not have on a parochial basis because you couldn't afford it. Right. Yes. I have a question which I don't find answered in the legislation. Essentially instructional or in school television comes into the legislation under Title 3 in terms of looking to. We're now saying what sort of some kind of a commission to do for school television what essentially we did for out of school television. Are we making a policy decision now that there will be a separation between public television and instructional television so that there will perhaps

be a cooperation similar to the public television corporation established for school television or is a possible conclusion of the study that school television should also operate under the charter of public. I would assume that there are I would assume that there are unless there's some reason for not doing it which would not be helpful to instructional television very good. But if the advantage to instructional television is to bring it in I want it in the other hand the only reason why it would be left out and dealt with separately is only because it would be better for instructional television to do it that way after it is properly studied and considered. Because I repeat again this is really the important part of this is where we're reaching the kids really that you talked about father. And after all let's face it they grow up so fast that it isn't even funny. You turn around and there they are. Well I lived through

that and I know that I grew up so fast. Well I think there are many ways that work where we're quite happy with with treatment that you've given us and and the record that has been Man I have no other alternative but I have no other alternative. They are nice people and we treat you nicely. Thank you very make you very much. That was the final set of what. It appears that another witness has been added simply to have a list was made up last night. We do not have an identification on those which are. My name is Edmond and I'm here on behalf of the U.S.

Catholic Conference was formerly the Conference of Catholic Roman Catholic bishops and also the Archdiocese of San Francisco. Would you put that microphone closer to you so that everyone in the room can hear. I have prepared and given to your assistant there a more lengthy discussion of the problem which is behind a short statement I'd like to make and if with your permission I would like to have a longer statement left with the committee for its considerations particularly with respect to Title 3 and this discusses the just testimony this. Yes sir. Well then we put it in the in the record in its entirety. Fine thank you sir. I'd appreciate that you may but I'd like to summarize yet here. Very good sir. For the past 25 years I've been an executive and a consultant in the aerospace industry and my duties have involved the analysis of electronic information systems and for the past 10 years the problem of the most cost effective way to use the limited frequency spectrum and application of advancing satellite

technology and the concerns of the Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco is in their future planning with regard to all types of educational instruction as well as instructional TV. They have to look at this as a whole rather than as two separate distinct elements. One of the things that concerned us about Senate Bill 11 60 was the fact that it appears to be limited to radio and television broadcasting. That is of concern to us in our future technical planning because the technology now that is being urged upon us is that within a very few years it will be far more economical for the vast unused computer capacity of the country which is estimated to be between 1 and 2 billion dollars. The news now not the act total. That would be available to the educational community as a whole if it could be interconnected by a

satellite which undoubtedly is contemplated by the Corporation for Public Television since nationwide transmission by this satellite would be the most economical way of distributing educational material and therefore where concern initially with whether or not this corporation is going to be limited in its scope to merely broadcasting rather than to include also the two way communication between schools and computers are the national data library that is planned here in Washington as been proposed by the Congress. We understand that there are interpretations of the word broadcasting radio and television to not include two way communication of data links to these very great natural resources and national resources such as this on use computer capacity. Now some of the costs that have been discussed in these hearings with respect to the future of

the public television rather appear to be only a small part of the saving that education might be able to obtain if it could have access to these this on use computer capacity and to the National Archives. Now you look at have you a copy of the bill I do sir. Look at page 19 subsection. New technology not now available including flexible teacher control scheduling of programs based on videotapes films and other materials or devices in a study appears to include other than radio and television broadcasting. But the question we had of the concern we had was whether the corporation's charter as covered earlier in the bill would preclude its being concerned with satellites that would interconnect computers and schools because by

definitions that have been long established in the communications industry broadcasting is limited to a one way proposition whereas communication two way is considered to be a separate time means and therefore subject to separate rules and regulations. And what I question really is whether or not it is the intent of this to limit the corporation's jurisdiction to just broadcasting or whether if it does put up a satellite would it also be able to handle two way communication with the educational community. Well now what you're talking about comes out within the area of title treat a treat as of now that now that's the study. Well I know it's to study but it's instructional television that you're talking about. Yes but if it's not emotional that you're talking about isn't it. Yes I know. Well it is not necessarily And so that's the question that was advanced by the father. Yes. You say and his point was after this study is

made with reference to instructional television would this responsibility be within the realm of the province of the corporation. That's right. And I told him that if it's for the advantage to the advantage of instructional television it should be on the other hand it only should be excluded if it's in the better interest do it excluded for instructional television. Do I make myself clear on that point. Yes I I hear what you say now I think in the report we ought to make that abundantly clear. Well in other words what you would want us to do is broaden out the definition of what is meant by broadcasting. Well if I could refer to the words of Dr. Licklider in the Carnegie Commission Report in which he pointed out that there has been such as a particular construction placed on the word television for example that he felt that it limited the scope of the considerations of the total education picture using our technology and therefore relying on his comments why it would appear as though that if there is to be no misunderstanding television

radio broadcasting or information transfer would then end any possible debate at a later time. I say well all right then what will do I asked the staff to take notice of this testimony and to go into it into quite some detail. In the meantime consult with the agencies who were responsible for the drafting of the bill and if it's necessary to confer with you again we will thank you for the men. Matter will be considered by the committee I can tell you now what they will do. But your point will be given due consideration. Thank you very much there are certain procedures. All right is there anyone else in this room who would like to speak for or against this bill which is now with a recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow. I 10th the end of testimony put this second day of hearings in the second week of the hearings on the public television Act of 1967. A total of eight witnesses appeared today where you will now

recap that testimony for you. First New York Sen. Jacob Javits appeared before the committee this morning spending 25 minutes to urge the development of communication satellite systems for use by educational television. He noted that this development should include both the United States and Latin America. Senator Javits under questioning from Senator Pat story points to the belief that the commerce subcommittee to investigate financial aspects of the public television corporation would not usurp the authority of other committees assigned responsibility in the areas of financing there'd been much concern over that possibility of a breach of the normal etiquette. Appearing second today was Dr. Frank Stanton president of the Columbia Broadcasting System. He said CBS supports the bill but indicates concern in the creation of the public television corporation. CBS wants to assure its freedom from government influence as well as adequate

financing to get the financing off the ground CBS offered a 1 million dollar grant for the formation following the formation of the corporation. Dr. Stanton emphasized the need to give local stations the final authority in the broadcasting of programs. He said he was not concerned about the creation of a live interconnection of stations implying no fear of competition for the commercial networks educational broadcasters. The third witness today was Julian Goodman president of the National Broadcasting Company. He voiced support on behalf of NBC for the pending legislation saying the title of the bill should be changed to reflect the inclusion of radio. Mr Goodman said perhaps the bill would better be titled The Public Broadcasting Act of 1967. He recognized the possibility that some programs produced by commercial networks would overlap those produced by noncommercial stations but felt this would be no major fear on the part of the commercial networks.

He voiced concern that Congress is sure the proposed public television cooperation adequate shielding from political pressures a concern that has been reflected by most of the witnesses to appear during these many days of testimony. Mr Goodman said NBC supports the idea of free or reduced rights in the acquisition of station interconnection facilities. He said disagreement on Barrios issues by witnesses are merely technicalities. And in his opinion seemed in no way to invalidate the bill as it was originally drafted. He declined immediate comment on the public corporation fears that interconnection might make it a network he said he wants to study that possibility and that problem a little more carefully. The fourth witness today was Dorothy Sherry a council member of the dramatists Guild of New York. He said that educational television could provide a major source such as easy to experiment with new art forms and programs not now

suitable for regular showing by commercial television. A charge that audience ratings so valued by commercial networks generally seemed to harm the production of dramatic programmes and other specialized artistic presentations he felt that the educational broadcasting systems would provide a good way to fill that gap. Appearing as the first witness of this afternoon session and the rest of the day was Leonard golden Senate president of the American Broadcasting Company. He endorsed the proposal on behalf of ABC. He said the bill only represents a start in the right direction but he felt certain all concerned agree it's a good start. He said live transmission of programs on an inner connected basis is going to be a necessity sooner or later. And he'd like to see it happen sooner. He said that ABC has long realized the desirability of using satellites to provide network services and said ABC strongly feels

educational broadcasters should be given free access to communications satellite facilities. 8:2 expressed fears that the existing bill might allow government influence over educational broadcasting saying he was certain the committee would consider ways to lessen that possibility. They suggested multiple sources of operating money as one means of eliminating the possibility of government influence sharing later. The sixth witness has been sent was a loser president of the National Association of Broadcasters. He pledged full support for educational broadcasting. But later bogged down in a maze of confusion. Like other witnesses before him he said again I be as concerned over the possibility of government control or interference with programming he said he feels the bill as drafted does not contain adequate safeguards. He outlined a new proposal which he felt would deter the fear of federal influence saying the bill should be rewritten to make federal money available for distribution to

the states. And then from the states to the stations rather than through the proposed public television corporation apparently he said that another method might be to create a national voluntary organization for Educational Television and Radio with each station having a vote on policy matters and stations becoming members by paying a fee. The seventh witness today was Commissioner Robert E. Lee of the Federal Communications Commission accompanied by six others outlined the merits of the so-called instructional text service television operation currently in use for instructional purposes on a similar to close circuit basis. He urged federal funding to aid in the construction of more of these systems and was concerned that the bill as written might not allow such service. On another point he voiced concern that students were not getting instructional programs of adequate quality and felt more funding in the production of programs was a vital

necessity. The last witness whom you just heard was adamant he is representing the Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco. He was concerned over the possibility that schools would not be able to use educational broadcasting interconnection facilities for the transmission of college computer data. He said Many colleges exchange computer data and noted that the use of satellites or other national interconnection facilities would provide a faster and expensive mode of the exchange. Senator Brad story made no promises on that possibility noting it was a little out of the range of public broadcasting Cook said it would definitely be considered by the committee. And so ended the testimony for today sounded by a story was the only senator attending this afternoon session. Other senators who were here this morning were Scott of Pennsylvania and Norris Cotton in New Hampshire Senator Cotton is a member of the full Senate Commerce Committee. Tomorrow there will be 10 witnesses to appear. Among them will be the president of the

Communication Workers of America representatives of various state educational television commissions members of various electronic corporations and a number of educators. On Friday 10 witnesses are also scheduled. They include representatives of the American Federation of Labor. The president of the Westinghouse Broadcasting Company and more industry leaders and more educators. We note that there is a great possibility these hearings will be CUNT short on Friday. In talking with SENATOR PASTORE this afternoon we learned that he intends to be on the floor of the house at 12:30 Friday when General William Westmoreland addresses a joint session of Congress. He also will attend a special White House banquet honoring General Westmoreland. This network will carry the general speech to Congress live at 12:30 on Friday. General Westmoreland is on leave the leave for the United States general to be invited to appear before a

joint session of Congress since World War Two others who preceded him in this historic invitation included General Lucius Clay in 1949. Douglas MacArthur addressed a joint session in 1951 when General Matthew Ridgway appeared in 1952. General Westmoreland commander of American forces in Vietnam will assess our posture there and is also expected to voice support for alleged escalations of the war effort. Again that will be carried live during the recess and then we will return to the Senate subcommittee hearings on Friday when they reconvene. There will be no bright in the coverage of these hearings. Fortunately everything is tied together well. You've been listening to the second day of testimony in this second series of hearings on the proposed public television Act of 1967. The broadcast has originated live from the United States Senate Office Building in Washington D.C.

The special coverage is being produced by W am you FM. American University Radio in Washington D.C. and by national educational radio. The Senate proceedings are being heard live by members stations of the Eastern educational radio network in Washington New York City Boston Philadelphia Amherst and Albany. I'm Bill Greenwood. Public affairs director for national educational radio. Members of the Senate Commerce Subcommittee on communications meet again tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock to resume their hearings on this important legislative proposal. Our live coverage will resume at that time. This is the eastern educational radio network. Did British leaders deceive both their allies and their own people and some of the under cover of the niggling which led to the one week Suez war. This is the central question on the last of four documentary reports on Suez 10 years later broadcast Thursday at 7:00 repeated Saturday at 5 over WGBH

FM eighty nine point seven mega cycles Boston due to the length of the hearings of this afternoon from the floor of the house. We have been unable to bring you the scheduled broadcast of the Wednesday afternoon at the opera production of Nikolai's or from Windsor. The Merry Wives of Windsor. It will be scheduled for a future date in its place now. We bring you excerpts from the musical score to a friendly hires list to give it the Merry Widow. This will be heard in the new translation by Merrill puffer and vena cava eerie in the performance. We hear as frank as his wife out on CNN. Laurel Hurley has counted on a lot done it all bitch. John Riordon baritone. And as the Merry Widow bloddy Soprano leads the American opera society orchestra and chorus is under the direction of Franz Alors in the score to the Merry

Widow. My friends they are.