The First Amendment; F.A. Swanburg, Biographer

The First Amendment and a free people weekly examination of civil liberties and the media in the United States and around the world the program has produced cooperatively by WGBH Boston and the Institute for democratic communication at Boston University the host of the program is the institute's director Dr. Brownie group and. With me today is w. a Swanberg the preeminent American biographer especially of subjects connected with the emergence of the American press in its modern form. You may know that he's won a Pulitzer Prize for his book loose and his empire about Henry Luce the man who started the Time-Life empire. Other books include citizen Hearst and the story of Joseph Pulitzer. He is also the author of such books as drys or Jim Fisk. The book on Fort Sumpter called First Blood and sickles the incredible miss just one bird was born in St. Paul Minnesota and graduated from the University of Minnesota.

I would like to ask you this first question. But before I do I'd like to say that wood lighted to be at the studios of the Connecticut Public Radio Service in Hartford Connecticut. Mr. Swanberg What made you pick this kind of a subject involving press figures early on. Well at least part of the reason is the fact that after I got out of college in 1030 of all the terrible times to get out of college in the midst of the Depression the worst of the beginning of the depression I did look for a newspaper job I had studied journalism. And I finally did manage to get a very small job at the St. Paul Daily News. A newspaper and now unfortunately dad. But ever since then I've been an interested in journalism. Now these figures that you've chosen and I guess I read every book that you've written except the drives are books. The last I read of course was the Norman Thomas

which came out a while ago. Each of these figures is not only a press figure or media personality but outstanding for his creative capacity. When one thinks let's start with with William Randolph Hearst he really molded the pop newspaper as it exists in the United States today would you say that's a fair statement. I would say that yes I would also say of course that he did have a great tutor in just a Pulitzer and I think there's no question about the fact that that Hearst was simply entranced by by products of newspaper treatment. And he learned a great many things from from Pulitzer However he did I think go a bit farther in sensationalism than Pulitzer. And I think he was a little less now shall we say a less prominent in his in the depth of the treatment of the news and editorials than Pulitzer aside from hiring Nellie Bly.

He did everything that you could possibly do with the story. When your man or Hirst Yes. Oh yes indeed yes. Among the things that he is given credit for in your book is caring so much about the story that his people went out and created them. It was necessary to enter an asylum or if it was necessary to to accidently fall off a bridge they did so in order to get the story. Yes he did have a tremendous story sense and of course that sort of thing is still done. By the sage New York Times for example they'll send out a man to have to find a story in a hospital or in a prison or something like that and it really is an extension of what Hearst did in his day. There's another thread that runs through these books Norman Thomas Luce and citizen Hearst and Pulitzer and that is that in their ways each one of these figures try to Xs. And each one failed in large measure to exercise political power.

Hearst even entertaining ideas about the presidency. Yes but failing gloriously. You know was that something that appealed to you the fact that they failed so gloriously well and succeeded so well in part yes that I think that was certainly part of the color of each of their characters. Hearst to begin with it was tremendously in narrative politics and wanted in the worst way to be president of the United States and worked at it in the most obvious of ways we all know that on the other hand. And Luce of course he wanted political power also and in due time he did it simply as the publisher of this tremendously potent magazine but also he wanted to and I think he wanted public office. And you know if Wilkie had been elected I think that Lewis would have been secretary of state. But that was it. And his wife had to be the public

officeholder clear with lives with Lou became invested. It's really you know renowned woman in her own right. Maybe one one personality who might pique your future interest as a companion book in regard to Henry Luce starting out this idea of Time magazine as a college student with his friends post college effort. I find that his interpretation of the news again is a step up from her first his creation of languages use of descriptions are a member in the loose book you're describing. When time wanted to describe someone who was before a Senate or House committee and they didn't like him he always entered the slovenly overblown if they liked him he was the tall regal austere type giving the truth. Yeah that was all made up wasn't it. In the editorial office. Yes I think that there's no doubt that libs had a conception of

politics as it should be. I think that loose was a tremendously self righteous man who felt that America was almost always right and whatever it did and you felt that he had a mission I believe to be to mold the news so that I. Let us steered people in the right direction. On the present standards of First Amendment curiosity would you say that these men thought much about the First Amendment I'm thinking now of Hearst in particular. Probably loose thought a great deal more because he was more contemporary with some of the issues. But I think first comes across to me from your biography as utterly flamboyant and the devil take the hindmost. Yes I think that Hearst had a conception of himself as a man heading in the right direction. On the other hand I think you're quite right he was utterly flamboyant

at least in his younger years. It was the man who created San Simeon was obviously flamboyant in his later years as well. Yes indeed yes yes that's right because he never finished it he died before he actually completed it you're right. The most introspective and I guess the. In word introspective applies to Norman Thomas publicists a public figure but at the same time there was another part of Norman Thomas the socialist leader the reserved inner man which came from his early training for the ministry in background. Well I don't get a picture of him as being reserved. I think that he was a very friendly man. I talked with all of his relatives and many others. I think Norman Thomas was if anything an extrovert. Now that sounds odd to say that about him I think he was a let us say a very controlled extrovert. He loved to speak he was a born public speaker I think he

was one of our great American orators. And he had a capacity he had an ability to control crowds. He was a wonderful speaker. And I heard him myself as a boy. He appeared on Town Hall frequently in the 40s and 50s. He only died in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight. He was a great crowd pleaser. He held a party together that had only several thousand people in it at different times. But yet I think of the man I always think of the man as introspective and you are the expert of course who resorts to his pen and writes these long letters of explanation to everybody you know cajoling them pushing them on would you. I would agree with the word introspective in so far as it means that he was a tremendously inner man and he he didn't only work Outwardly he was a deep thinker and there's a word I don't like to use and yet it does apply to him I can't think of a better word. He was a do gooder in the

best sense. You describe him so yes I do gooder who would not stand back on the question of First Amendment issues. Never. Never know whether even in Jersey City he would he would go flying into there to defy the mayor. Yes yes and he did it twice he got thrown out and he went back again and yes indeed a courageous man and his his wife was an extraordinary personality as well. She well that she was she was quite quite wealthy. And we had this rather odd spectacle of Norman Thomas a man who was a deep have vowed socialist. Being quite comfortable financially. On the other hand he spent all of his time in his efforts to his strengths in going around the country and speaking for causes for which you know which he believed. Now he started out as a minister and left the church because the Presbyterian Church was

arrested and turned down after a short stay. One of the richest Fifth Avenue churches the brick Presbyterian Trinitarian all we have and then went into the slums as they existed of the day right of New York. You had that choice and he turned down the brick church which still is. It's in a different place building now but it's still very social and sociable and wealthy church. Which he could have had for the asking. But you know there's another incredible thing about Norman Thomas as I review your your biography of him and that was in the Socialist Party movement this great dissenter Norman Thomas who stood for the American ideals pretty much as against the collectivism he hated Stalin he hated the Nazis and so on. He was also apart from a great bulk of the socialist who were middle European in ethnic background who were the immigrant poor or

who were who were appealed to by the Statue of Liberty's motto and so on. Yet he was the solid bedrock Yankee type. Although he's born in Ohio I know yes. How do you make that out. What drove him. I think the only explanation is this marvelous personality he had and he he was a very warm person and you know. I think he immediately gave people the impression that he loved them which he did. You can't you can't beat that can you. You know but I also have the feeling now I'm I'm sort of. Tempting you with this that his conception from the early days of socialism was a substitute for his early church work where as for the others the Europeans the people had to live in the slums of New York in Philadelphia in Detroit and what not. Their conception of socialism was a better economic deal.

Well I would have to disagree with you there because of course from Thomas It really came into his prime was in the Depression. And the tragedy of the depression of the 30s and it wasn't he one of the few who agree that Roosevelt had saved the country as it was. Yes he did he thought that Roosevelt had saved the country up to a point up to a point yes. And he felt that as a stopgap by Roosevelt was great. Eventually he disagreed with Roosevelt but my point is that he was thinking economically and he was thinking of the people out in Iowa and Texas and Arkansas and Alabama and wherever who are suffering from this nationwide worldwide depression I think I agree completely with that. Perhaps I misstated it. I think that there was in Norman Thomas A benign. Priestly attitude even though he's a Protestant clergyman which the others the others the leading

socialist saw world currents moving he saw humane currents moving. They both are interest in economics. Yes but I think the motivation was different. Well let's put it this way. He never suffered from poverty himself. I suppose you could never quite put yourself in the place of poverty if you've never experienced it. On the other hand he certainly did study it and he knew what it wanted. From the point of view of a student when I read your book are Norman Thomas I was particularly interested in contrasting in my mind to Joseph Joseph lushes biography of Eleanor Roosevelt the years alone. Yes I saw a certain similarity there of people who had rather unusual people who had developed intellectually the whole of their lives differing from so many of us who reach peaks and stop. Yes.

You're speaking now of Norman Thomas and Eleanor Roosevelt. Different characters Yeah. Yeah both emerging from cocoons. Yes. And I think Ellen are perhaps a little more than Norman Thomas but we all know it from life as wonderful books. That Eleanor was it was if she didn't emerge from a cocoon she was a quiet little thing you know who had to work and work and work to be to express herself later. And how she did succeed of course is every everybody knows and it sank she became Norman Thomas's favorite woman politician or shall we say politician whatever you would. He could talk even though he was angry at Franklin D Roosevelt yes yes indeed yes because Franklin Roosevelt couldn't talk to Eleanor according to lash either she can't come here to him with these socialistic propositions as if yes. Yes indeed. What are you working on though at the movies. Well I'm working on a book quite different from anything I've ever done before except that it

is biographical It's about two generations of the same family. And it begins of as William Whitney you know I don't know if you've ever heard of Whitney I think you probably have. He was secretary of the Navy in the first Claiborne administration and a tremendous administrate or a great politician who knew all the angles and politics and who actually elected Cleveland president the second time and could have been I think President himself if he had wanted to. The trouble was he had married a woman of tremendous wealth and made in there for a pain. And he didn't like to be shall we say dependent. He would rather have his own maid and then he would be deserted politics. He went into into capitalistic endeavors and made his own millions. And I would say became our most charming and handsome robber baron. However his daughter

Darcy who was his heiress a woman who had many millions at her command. I believe became a bit worried and been a bit ashamed of this money of hers. She thought it was somewhat tainted. But she also had a marvelous character great. Great honesty a great sense of honesty and a sense of duty toward the underprivileged she felt herself over privileged. And her career was quite diametrically opposite to that of her father. So that we have we go around the circle and I think it makes an interesting book. Is this going to take it right into the modern period the Whitney's have been active in the certainly in the public eye until recently fairly recently I remember quite 10 years ago when we hear about the Whitney's quote you know how the family of course is is very wealthy and sociable socially

prominent. John Whitney is still living although he's an old man now he is a grandson of William C. Whitney Cornelius Vanderbilt Whitney is another grandson who is still living and he has more notable for his interest in the races but. One of those people who was you know interesting freedom of expression which concerns us a great deal. To my mind always begins with curiosity. We are in the First Amendment sense we've gotten too used to the habit of defending it without encouraging it. And there's the encouragement that concerns the biographer. He wants to find out what made people tick and what made them roll along certain lines. When you get caught up on an idea to do one of these figures what is it that sets you going is it something you've read about them as it is. Is there a storehouse of personalities in the back of your mind that you will never finish writing about.

Oh I think so yes. But when you get an idea of course you are encounter people as you read you encounter people who. Are your fantasies are interesting and in my mind to my mind the interesting people are the controversial people the people who you could say one thing about them or another some people would attack them other people would defend them. I think that's a very essence of interest and drama you know. And they're all dissenters in a way aren't they I mean they are all attempting to fly in the face of public opinion when they have a view of the world. Yes in different ways. Yes quite. And I notice that each one of them has spent a lifetime at it. These are not people that moodily go from one profession to another. No not at. No they seem to be born without spirit. Who else would you have on your list as you would look ahead to things that you might do. Well I'm so busy you know that. But I am thinking of an unusual thing. A man who was the inventor of the

Xerox process. Now of course all of us are. Where users of the Xerox process radically daily. And he was a most unusual man not only in inventing the Xerox process but in becoming one of our outstanding from at the press in the way of. Supporting peace organizations and the Center for. The study of democratic institutions things like that. I think it would make a most unusual I would look for that. I wondered whether Colonel Robert R. McCormick would be on such a list. Well McCormick certainly would McCormack had been done many times but I don't think the definitive job has been done yet. Maybe it's still a little too early. I'm from the generation that listened to the Chicago Theater the air on the radio and you know I can even remember the names. Let's see it was Attilio bridge Jory. And that led the orchestra. Yeah that's Marion Clair who did the singing of the Saturday night operettas always preceded by one of the comics little

homilies of seven or eight minutes do you remember that. Yeah Cindy. Yeah it was she instructed Wilson or Roosevelt or somebody else on how the world should be run. And that was over WGN which stood for the world's greatest network was it Greatest something or other and it was you know that was the idea. When you look at the press today and some of the problems that the press is having to protect its freedom seems that the courts are leaning rather heavily on certain cherished press rights. You have to do you get concerned as a former newspaperman. Yes I am I think that the present Supreme Court has been. Lacking in the spirit that we have to have. That does seem to me that they are leaning almost entirely toward the defense of the individual the privacy of the individual in cases where the freedom of the press I think you know in the long run is by far the more important.

More important principle as we talk this morning in the news February 980 story that the Supreme Court has decided against Frank snip in his book on the CIA because you know thought we did a previous and he gave no secrets away. We did a previous program on the. Bender in case in which the author of the book Touching the novel touching was involved in psychiatrist you had one against her and her publisher. This seems to be a trend of distrust of the press. Yes I think so. Will this produce new press leaders who will show us the way out of it or will it produce the people who take advantage of the sort of I wonder. We do need I think new press leaders we don't seem to have them. They came up in the past people such as Pulitzer. It off ox of the New York Times right. I don't I don't know of anybody now I'm afraid that one bad thing is that newspapers are becoming

larger and larger circles. There are fewer independent newspapers of great strength. Then there have been before and they're also becoming more and numbered with the social entertainment side rather than news per se. One wonders whether the public is not being given more and more of less and less with every edition. I'm afraid that is that is true and I think the New York Times which I think is still our best newspaper or biggest at best really is an example of that the feature the feature part of it is becoming stronger and stronger. And I think the news part of it is becoming less strong. What would happen if you had these wonderful characters that you've written about around the table. Would they have instinctively cursed loose Pulitzer Thomas drys or would they have said this is a great poker crowd. We understand one another

we're all of them in one way or another. I'm not so sure of course but different people we have there even though they were involved in some of the similar and divers I think was a self righteous person who I don't think would would want to play poker with him. Noam times didn't like games as I recall now Thomas. Did you like games I've got I mean well I think I think Thomas might love game look if you loved croquet and he loved to garden and that sort of thing. And we have the case of Joseph Pulitzer who was I think the genius of the bunch and yet not well liked. No never like and he went mad you might say you know really before too many years had gone by. Now each of these men though was molded by a great need of the public for information. I think he responded to it yes. I know the networks are

responding to it and the newspaper Cumberland's are responding to it is the day of the individual response past or where it just it just seemed that way some hours. Oh I think it seems that way we have now only in the case of Walter Cronkite who was leaving and Cronkite has a tremendous following we know that. And I think justifiably so he treats the news seriously but on the other hand. He doesn't treat it in the depth he finds it impossible. There isn't the time in which a newspaper of course has or has not given up active reporting in the real sense in favor of being this persona. Yes yes and yet I think that Walter Cronkite had to has a great sense of duty toward news and I don't think he would let anybody put it to go around that Saturday. He has the standard that comes from the old newspaperman standard. I think so. But no. Or a newspaper woman. Now these other people are coming up though through the medium as it

were. Yeah the electronics of it run right into anything else. Yes. I must say I worry about that. I'm afraid that what we're getting more and more particularly from stations farther away in the country. Is a little driblets of news. And not the whole picture by any means. So when Walter Cronkite since you mention him says that's the way it is. We can either put a question mark or exclamation point after that right. Right. And we know that there's a stock news every night. But maybe that's not even a good segment of what is going on in the world of the country of the state. Yes I'm afraid what they do is go over the day's budgeted news and pick out the most interesting sayings and just leave the press to throw them away and pretend generally are you following the in the last moment we have following the Rupert Murdoch wild cat Australian magnate of the press.

I am to some extent and I think he's a totally bad influence. But if they're successful. Oh very yeah just not to be there would be elements of hers that would admire Murdoch's audacity. Yeah. And yet I think Hearst had qualities that Murdoch does not have. Yes I believe so. You know he was extremely inventive all of these people that you've talked about very much so yes. And if I may say so in the very last moment and I don't want to go beyond the fact you sir are tremendously inventive It has been a pleasure not only to have been your reader as Will Durant's would say at the end of a book Dear reader I am your dear reader but a pleasure that you have consistently been inventive and seem to be improving all the time. Well I thank you Dr. Reuben It's been a pleasure to be here. Same here for this edition. Bernard Reuben. The First Amendment and a free people a weekly examination of civil liberties and the media in the United States and around the world.

The engineer for this broadcast was Margo Garrison. The program is produced by Greg Fitzgerald. This broadcast has produced cooperatively by WGBH Boston and the Institute for democratic communication at Boston University which are solely responsible for its content. This is a station program exchange.