Crocker Snow Reports From Germany; Klaus von Bismark, WDR

Greetings from West Germany. This is Crocker snow speaking from the studios of Radio Deutsch of our cologne in the city where the world famous Gothic cathedral. One of the given factors for a foreign correspondent attempting to make any sort of meaningful equation about present day Germany is of course the country's recent past. It is an ever present and ever important consideration in particularly the last 30 years starting with the infamous Nazi Third Reich leading to the country's total defeat in World War 2. The subsequent upheaval and division of the country into east and west communist and capitalist. The birth and growth of the Federal Republic and the economic miracle of West Germany in the last decade. These events inevitably color almost every subject and creep into almost every conversation. Of course it is always of interest to try to explain why and predict what today an interview with a

prominent German Klaus fun Bismark who is from his own experience well qualified to do just that. A man now in his mid 50s missed a fun Bismark was active and successful in the German army during the last war and in juvenile welfare work immediately after it. Born to prominence as a direct descendant of the Iron Chancellor. He has achieved it in his own right today both as a key member of the World Council of Churches and as director of Germany's largest radio and television station. To learn his angles about the Germany of today and yesterday I recently held a remarkably free and uninhibited interview with him in his cologne offices are known for being nonpartizan and independent politically mystifying Bismark talk freely and openly and with a maximum of candor. First about the German army of Nazi days. Having a non-regular Commission Mr. von Bismarck was called to service a month before the invasion of Poland in

September 1939. He fought in France and Russia and ultimately advanced of the command of an infantry regiment. He was wounded three times encircled with his troops eight times on the eastern front and captured just at the war's end when talking of the German army. He is speaking from experience. Looking back to this I think the description that this time device among young people attend for fun but that means escape becoming soldier to escape the political trouble. This was true. I think you mean you mean by this by becoming a soldier you avoided the pullout avoided any problem that the people the best way to try to press you to become a party man again and all this stuff and it was a little bit a temptation of an island that all of us is missing seats and sees this time as a farce

so just to live on an island in a nonpolitical island and you know. I am not saying that because my my mother I belong to his so-called kind of decay here that means the Protestant resistance movement. My father didn't live anymore and because my mother was with six children responsible for a big farm and she was a non political person but for the church we haven't been in the midst of a political struggle. My father has been a life. Suddenly we would be Defra. We concentrated and I sought the Nazis who were actually crazy people. But I personally have to confess I didn't overlook the danger what was really coming up. We left and come again yeah we thought that we're crazy people and sometimes

they would go out again and this was wrong but it is this importance of your family historically that makes you say that if your father had been living Undoubtedly you would have been involved in the politics of the time or your family would have been. Yes I'm quite sure because you know all of the other members of the family. When different. So one reason was because of his Christian attitude. They were involved and the 20 a few live people and connected with them on the other hand. Truly there were some of the members of Dr C against Hitler because they were really activists monarchy and so on. Living in the old William the second time that wasn't the attitude of my father. But the whole atmosphere was a value addition the sometimes and I could culture parts and therefore it was a funny mixture of people who didn't agree with

Hitler. Sometimes one would say of political reasons because they really estimated what it means. Some of them think I'm interested in how you assess the mood of the Army since since the war by scholars and professionals and observers it's been considered that the German veil marked the army was in those days really the only institution or organization if you will in Germany during the Nazi days that had the power necessary to upset the Nazis. And from your experience do you do you agree with this assessment do you think this is this is correct. I think my answer is No. It's true that in the army there were a lot of people who didn't agree with the Nazis. I did too. You know what it is attitude and this

loud speaking polemic politics in the south. And so on. But I think the majority of the office and suddenly the majority of the leading generals were very much impressed by is the chances Hitler gave to me and this way I think they all have been infected. I had some offset trying to show you off to resistance people who were close friends of mine and. I didn't agree with them concerning the hope to persuade the majority of the Army for this kind of resistance. You know in the beginning I spoke about the island of professional office I was perhaps passionately consigning sincere people but more or less blind politically I was blind I had to contest in the seven sense also in this time and.

I think the army has been really misused pressed that you did in a way and I spoke with different generals during the brawl who well loudly speaking how courageous they will resist Hitler if they had a chance to speak to him and if they had the chance to speak to him and come out then they came back as brave dogs because he was mouthing them handing them. I think psychological value clever. In other words don't you feel that at least a certain segment of the army was despite objecting to the methods of National Socialism were sympathetic enough with what Hitler was accomplishing militarily didn't they. We're quiet and passive about resisting him. Yes I think you are right and you know the fact that I shot and caught

a group of traditional offices more or less in the attitude of old times and old John an army style Zakes style you may say via high quality General Staff in this professional field but with a certain distance to any political consideration. This was a fan group and this evoked and young type of people who were entirely ideological. I don't define some selfish Nazi time the folks here. It was a revolutionary that was suddenly set and socialist turned in it. You should forget this and this. People coming as sons of workers as sons of lower middle class. They didn't like this type of traditional Phasis which this happened to Ed. And suddenly a little bit exclusive and

certain names. How about the importance which some people have suggested the importance of the oath of allegiance that everybody had to swear to Hitler. All the officers had to swear. Do you think this the fact of this oath and the fact of the training that strict training in. Insubordination at the officers head do you think this discouraged an opposition to national socialism. You know I mean I wouldn't over estimate at this point. I know they had been in other countries the discussion about this. It was primarily the lack of political cynics thinking I think a lot of people would be courageous enough to throw that away if they really felt this was that Hitler was a bad person if acacia nasty evil but they didn't think too much politically they were too one sided in the professional thinking and the chances of the fashion becoming Hauptmann becoming color Now the coming agenda

being successful a soldier and they believe the wonderful soldier idols and that made them blind. Mr. KLAUSE fun Bismarck director of West Germany's largest radio and television station discussing the peculiar position of the German army which he was a part in Nazi Germany. With the country's inevitable and total defeat in the spring of 1945 came the day of reckoning. The entire social political military and economic fabric of the country was torn asunder a vast national upheaval. Mr. Foreign Bismarck like so many others spent the first postwar weeks and months in a prison of war camp being a landed man with all of his family's vast properties in either the Soviet occupied zone or the area ceded to Poland. He lost far more materially than most but for him as for much of the population this

period was not the closing act but the opening one. It is on this period in phenomenon that our interview now turns this bake to shock. What a man to sing. On the other hand to be very good fall on the elemental fact that you were still alive. After all what happened was something like a mild call that I was still alive I didn't expect that you were wounded how many times three times three. But it was it was I would say looking back tried to create time. Mentally intellectually mentally. Do you feel this was just true for so many people. For many people for very many people for very many people and I wouldn't miss it. Discussions first discussion with students and workers some resistance people some people from the church. This was really

looking back to it I had the feeling you know I should be growing. That was especially true for somebody who was more or less during the whole time except the times when I was wounded. On the front line on the battlefield. You know we didn't really entirely knowing what was going on this time what happened at home and sometimes listening to a relative's wife's My wife had to do what on the flight and was a refugee from about how kilometers more or less walking you know doing our leaves at home. Then I got the tiffs and I wives then they didn't want to shock us too much. As we came home for soldiers they need we needed to recreation this few days and we were happy to be together. But now we we want to know what's going on. What

happened. My first I'm say is it was a great gift that was quite time only getting the praise and understand what I'm doing so I do. Did you ever at this time consider leaving Germany to set up your wife somewhere in some other country. Well that's a question that some people tried to persuade me to go to U.S. land and as a specialist for seed beading but I felt after all would have been what happened and I was still alive. I had even if I didn't like something what happened in Germany I had to stand and and to think it out and to live it out in what directions did you first determine to do this. I believe you go to you know show work at a church. I had the chance to continue as a fama. But I was so interested what was going on among young people what really what does it all mean

for the workers and district and what is just trying to change what what means this as a way for a better future that I cut my relations with farming and went in first and social worker and beginning with a foundation off a kind of use latest training. How did how did you get into this where these opportunities open to to people that wanted to do it or know what it happened. You may say that was the main administrator of a crisis of our time that's what's it called the lump dart. And I was sitting in Venice and one night the evening meal and then he told me he asked me what to do with the young people in his district in the US and I never was a professional man for use work or something. But I think it was an interesting question and one I told him what I would do

if I would be in his position and then he asked me to write it out. I never did sub something before and I did. And then this man had to present it to his occupation. I mean that means British control offices. And that suddenly means that this funny paper of this night went to all the British aside and they said that's just the way we want to put it and then they suddenly ask me wouldn't you. For four hundred fifty mock munge that means about during this time about 100 mock them $100 per month. Would you be prepared to do this professionally. Because I had. Wife and I had three sons one was just weeks and I thought I would have worked as a taxi driver. But this was interesting and I did it. Looking back now do you think this is this youth work is one of the most beneficial things you could have

done. Immediately after the war yes perhaps. It sounds a little bit selfish but I think I couldn't do something better to to learn from my own. So it wasn't just distance between a teacher teaching us leaders. You know I was one of them. I wanted to know what's going on. And therefore it was a sell a day of learning of giving information receiving information. And this time dealing with Catholic use was Protestant use was socialist it was communist you assault with young people from Britain from France. Sons and Daughters descendants from existence people. I learn so much about you know about the countries and the US and you. Chance to begin something to approach something new that this was a tremendous job. For now only in the sense of national socialism was it was it a question of completely obliterating that hiding the period of German history or did you know you are very

correct just the opposite I think it was very necessary to deal with this people really convinced young Nazis. I must confess you I never met a personally convincing Nazi until the end of the war. I always thought these people were crazy or cracked. Not quite acceptable but after the war I had to confess. I met a lot of young people people boys and God's young soldiers who were hundred and fifty percent convinced in the same sense that sometimes young communists can win stuff. And I learned that I had to take some serious they mend what is had they were prepared to sacrifice himself. And therefore I had to face this face to face and and if I would deal with this people as people who were coming about something we

never would. And therefore from the beginning it was when I came to deal with this people to take them serious to convince them to meet on the same level. And that was one of my condition that I was free to do so. The voice is that of Mr. Klaus fun Bismark a man of position in post-war Germany now a broadcasting executive. He has held a great variety of posts since his army days including much work in the area of youth training and the church and interesting job which Mr fund Bismarck could have held but decided against was that of of clock to the country's parliamentary defense commissioner. When the decision to re-arm West Germany was made by the Western allies in the mid 50s a simultaneous one was made to ensure proper checks and controls on the new German army a blueprint for a new kind of army one designed to both promote as well as defend the country's new democracy.

The soldier was called a citizen in uniform and his rights were safeguarded as never before. One of these safeguards was the parliamentary defense commissioner modeled after the Scandinavian tradition of an ombudsman the defense commissioner was to investigate complaints of soldiers and assist the parliament in overseeing the Army's development. Mr. Fein Bismarck was picked as the first defense commissioner in 1058 but he did not accept the post. It wasn't the principle which he recognises as a good one but the lack of a firm political base and support which he felt the position required. This is what he did and still does object to as he says today. I did not accept it and I'm happy that I didn't. A key position that he did accept however is that of intendant general director of the vest or one from the country's largest radio and television station. It is

a post he has held since 1960. The job and his involvement on three committees of the World Council of Churches gives him a chance to view his country in a detached and objective way he encounters foreigners daily and is thus well aware of how they regard his native land. I asked him about this some of this people. That is true especially for partners in dialogue from Asia and Africa over estimating a Gemini. That means they are very much impressed by this economic my chol and forget that really the times of 45 Sonata times havent overcome totally didn't mean that means we need many more when Generation. To overcome this yes to overcome this history I hope. I think that needs a new generation and too much impressed by this vital

Germany. And sometimes you have to practice on the other hand to speaking with some people from the East Bloc speaking people from the Netherlands so that you know because Still what's going on with the job that's what going on was this strong unified message. How do you think the informed American opinion about West Germany is is aiming do you think it's it's on the right track or not. I think if you look at American use paper and looking at what comes out of some of the American radio stations some US them specialist sometimes. And then you realize that it's going in a way it's going and wish we had you on in our time. Oh I want to follow the law as strong as possible and it's wonderful how do you over estimate and I tend Sadly you could

following sad movies in the United States where it really was a satin. Continually the old poison is coming in again and again. If the Germans were only a state of s s people and the old Walkman. If you speak not only was people from England from Great Britain France and Netherlands that's because it was France by intelligent people. Poland and Russia. It's a fact that after the two wars and after time this conception Germany that means US economic power and military power. This is a little bit primitive Association is creating sometimes overestimating this power and on the other hand. Feeling that this is a kind of

menace this is kind of what could lead to another trouble. And I think we haven't overcome this we have to be quite shy about it. Now how about the democratic development of the country so far it's had what. Not quite 20 years of of this most recent experiment in democracy. And you think that the democracy of the Federal Republic today is on a firm footing. Contrary to the much of the American academic opinion do you think the democracy here is firm and stable. I would say so. I'm think it's clear that it's been very much experience at that time included a lot of up to critic style especially in the connection with this outstanding man. I would trust on a percentage of people in all the parties in the union

and the vast. It's to the test of a big economic crisis hasn't been hasn't been and may be that as it happens in every country than some where some would exempt any structure if they aren't getting enough bread. I think this is true for a lot of populations. How about the other the other big test that many Americans point to is the fact that the ruling the ruling political party the CDU the Christian Democrats have never been out of power. But there's never been a change of government. Do you think this is important. I think this is important. And Jeff how much weakness the one party may have on the other. But I think this is a temptation if done. Anyone party again and again and again and again is holding the power. I don't agree and I think that doesn't matter. I think change just in time

would be a healthy thing. Doesn't matter how I think about the Socialist Party yes you are right but I would think in your position you you must be required to have both an attentive and an accurate eye on the national mood of Germany and so forth. And I'm wondering how in general you assess this. The age of Germany of West Germany right now the economic miracle is fast fading and yet this apparently what meets the eye is the rampant materialism evident in West Germany. And I wonder I wonder from from your position how you assess this. At first this concentration on materialism. And in a way it's it's it's healthy and understandable and you in the standard you know all these people lost everything. Oh it's a graphic you know 14 million refugees say they fought very much to got to gain a stand that and independence if. Only for living

for daily life that's understandable and I think this is healthy. And it's one of two reasons of the so-called economic my call because they were very hot. I was and I was a novice and. Another reason for for this a little bit overdone materialism such as fun and being a little bit too fat being a little bit too pushy about not too much interested what's going on and only concentrated on sometimes on jam and stomach and the jump and you'll be on a key European unification problem so organize something. I think this reflects that the shock of a new situation for Germany I would say the end of a strong John when the inability of Europe that it hasn't worked through the not quite clear a lot of people about this. I personally

saying we are a net Tiley different a new situation. I think it means what Hitler did when Hitler began with the war. It means that any dream about a strong unified Germany in middle Europe is is finished. And for a certain integration that means dependence from other nations dependence from an international structure I think it's the only way from my children to come to houses status that means problem for you you only free cation. Is this a problem. If you want a peaceful Middle Europe it's impossible to think it out with neighbors all around who are because what happen. Hundred Fifty percent of us what will happen to us at Germany and that you have to be a little bit patient dressed as Germans. I think this

materialist coming back to this is a kind of you have got to cut of the action because I don't know. What about the future of Germany. To me that's a bit of a frustration of the other whether it's on either direction. Mr. KLAUSE fun Bismarck today director of West Germany's largest radio and television station descendant of the Iron Chancellor. World War Two Army officer and member of the World Council of Churches has expressed opinions are held by many progressive minds in the country. But it's rare to hear them spoken so freely. This is Crocker snow speaking from radio Deutsch about Cologne West Germany.