The First Amendment; Nieman Fellows

The the. The eastern Public Radio Network in cooperation with the Institute for democratic communication at Boston University now presents the First Amendment and a free People's Weekly examination of civil liberties in the media. In the 1970s the host of the program is the institute's director Dr. Bernard Rubin. I'm delighted today to have as my guest to Nieman fellows of the doing a year at the Neiman foundation at Harvard University experience reporters who are coming for a year to study whatever they think is most important to them at Harvard University and one of its divisions. The first is Molly Sinclair who is a consumer writer

for The Miami Herald. She's been newspapering for 16 years in Texas at the Houston Post in Georgia at the Atlanta Constitution. And now in Florida of course at the Maumee Herald she does stories connected with regulating regulated industry particularly utilities pocketbook issues such as auto insurance electric rates gasoline prices consumer ripoffs and telephone company profits and so on. She is also the winner with four colleagues at The Miami Herald. The Florida Newspaper Publishers Association state Prize for public service. So congratulations on that. My other guest is Alice Bonner who is employed at the Washington Post and The Washington Post thinks well enough of her work to have nominated her for the Pulitzer Prize. She's been there since 1970 she's a Howard University graduate and began as a reporter in 1992 after completing the summer

program for minority journalists at Columbia University. At the post she spent the last two and a half years as a suburban reporter in Montgomery County Maryland for two of those years covering the City Health and Welfare Agency in Washington D.C. and related federal matters. The Department of H W is an even fellow Miss Barner is studying the distribution of income and resources in the United States including health care cash payments benefits for the least able in society and so on. And I'm very pleased that you're both here and I hope that you're enjoying your year off at Harvard. Press the first question is how do you go through the transition from the day by day a reportorial chore to this different environment that a university. Well we're we're still adjusting. Alice was talking earlier about Jim Thompson's description of race horses suddenly being pinned up.

And I think there is probably as good a description as any I know that I personally went through a very traumatic experience making the change from beating daily deadlines to being able to surely make some class selections and go to class and take notes and not have to come back and write a story based on that but I could sit around and think about it was quite quite pleasant. But you do begin to miss the production more active. Yes. Minute by minute harangues that you get from your editor. Well now that part you don't mean you know you have a finished product that shows that you achieve something today and there it is it's an instant gratification it's in the paper it's done and you can start something else. Ellis How was it for you to be in the groves of academe. Well I'm like Molly just adjusting to the luxury of being able to read about things other than those that I'm reporting on

and having the time to think about the broader significance of the subject that I cover. I have just started to force myself not to go out and get the paper first thing in the morning and keep up with what's going on back home in Washington in the political area and so forth. And that is it. It's a gradual process. Tell me. I think we all be very interested. The institute is interested in grand issues of the First Amendment but I think one of the most important issues for us all is is to look into the question of how well we are doing in getting the public affairs reported. It's the the press is the biggest educational plant in a whole country. How was it when you started as as newspaper people five or six or seven years ago. Molly tell us a little bit about the

start of the newspaper career. Well in my case it was a longer than four five years ago. It's how many years it was about 16 years ago I started working in a newspaper when I was in high school so. I was in Baytown Texas and this is the school that I attended had something called a distributed education program which allowed students to go to school half a day and work half a day. And through this program I was able to go to work at the newspaper in Baytown which was a daily. I did not go to work as a reporter. That's one of the things that many people coming in and out of schools even journalism schools are learning now you frequently have to do something else in order to get into the news office. I started out working the switchboard making bank deposits taking out paper boy collections over the counter and doing some of the really the fundamental jobs of office work. From then I went

into a feature writing and eventually went into Houston to work at the post where I got into court coverage Fedder at the federal level and then later Cannon government. So it's a very gradual thing where you start out doing this and then eventually lobby your way into those other things that you want to do. I always ponder you went through the Columbia University program for minority journalists which correct me was it not a short lived program. And at the end of which are all sorts of apologies made by Fred Friendly and whatnot. Protests by other students about the cost of the program and they were subsidizing it. I thought in looking through the data on that that there was an awful lot of fodder all but one of the best efforts was aborted for some reason. How was it when you were there was it was it something that should have just gone on. If any of my facts are incorrect please.

Certainly it should have gone on because I think that it is one of the best if not the best. Sure it an intensive training program for journalists and it has the added plus of being keyed particularly for minority journalists who are integrating the news media in this country. And there's too little emphasis on the need to do that I think. And actually the program does go on because the silver lining and the pull out of the Ford Foundation and of the terminations at Columbia University is that Bob Maynard and the other people who were helping to administer their program then took it with a different source of funding to the University of California at Berkeley. And the program has helped to train and identify employment for the largest single group of nonwhite journalist in this country of training programs it takes that

credit. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that. In the last four or five years according to the American Society of Newspaper Editors the percentage of minority journalists in the country has gone up from a point to seven tenths of a percent too. This is working. We produce an editorial employees to about 2 percent which is not overwhelming at present but I think that's a sad a great jump in a lot of the credit goes to that program program. And it was one of the interests of the interest try to do something along those lines and we were working on proposals for such groups as AGW to train a minority people in journalism and not necessarily professional training but para professional training for those who need that first and professional training for others. I don't see much enthusiasm for it. I think that people are a little dubious

and I'm. I am not a stall I think it's one of the crash things we have to do we have to bring that up. That 2 percent to 10 percent til we get some kind of irrational figure against the population of the United States we're not going to be able to be proud about anything you said. Point seven percent seven tenths of a percent of last year. That's almost a disaster isn't it. Sure it is in it so it's reflected I believe in the product of the newspapers. I don't speak generally about the electronic media because I'm just not as aware as I am by the newspaper business. But the thing that we always keep in mind those of us who was associated with us on our program and I think probably black journalists in general and certainly women should be extremely aware of it women reporters. Is what the commission on the right commission the kind of commission said 10 years ago and that was that by and large the media reflects a white

male viewpoint that news is reported from that standpoint. I don't think that things have changed sufficiently in the last 10 years since that report was made and perhaps the reason for the lack of enthusiasm or interest for our continuing efforts to do something about that has to do with a lack of information on the subject maybe people are not aware not only of how poor the statistics are but of significance of changing that. And I think that probably the institute is your institute is one of the key that kind of thing is one of the key instruments for bringing about this awareness. Well you know just a moment for a turn to Molly tracing going back to 1947 to the remarks on the commission on the freedom of the press of the Hodgins commission and then going to the Kerner Commission on Civil disorders of the late 60s. Will we go back to 1947 through

the late 60s and into this decade. Very little has been done and I'm among the most reluctant people to do it are newspaper publishers and Newspaper Publishers Association. It seems to me that they drag their feet on this issue. We could have massive programs going out right across the country we could have them instigated every school of journalism in the country certainly but it's still a slow paced. You hear about Bob Maynard's work and you hear about work at other places was very slow paced to change the subject. Molly Sinclair tell us a little about some of the problems realistically covering some of these pocketbook issues that you've dealt with. Are the utilities for example forthcoming with information when you're after a story. I'm talking known gross general terms and asking you to go into specifics. I would have to say that the problem of covering consumer stories business stories as they affect the individual which

frequently is is what I end up doing. The problem is is is getting information not unlike government officials business man business experts are not compelled to provide you with facts or figures about the area they're knowledgeable and they frequently see no reason why they should provide it. They will take the position often that I can't see how this will help me and it might hurt me and therefore why should I do it. So as a reporter it is frequently my job to convince them that this will hurt them and b it might help little public relations little republic relations. That's true. And once you begin to reassure the community business people in which you're working that you are serious about doing this and doing it well and doing it in a way that is fair to everyone it gets a little easier. But in the beginning I had very serious problems in getting even my

telephone calls answered particularly with the food industry people. They seem to be particularly careful about what they wanted to say for fear that it was going to be misused or taken out of context. Somehow it was going to reflect and hurt their profits. And with a particularly sensitive for any special reason was it migrant labor that bothered them that you might hit upon another story of how they were using migrant labor or Coca-Cola or influencing truck farming or what was it. I don't think it was anything that high level. I think it had to do more with the fact that they are a very close to the public. The people coming in out of their stores would be prone to react very quickly to bad publicity and grocery stores traditionally operate on a very different kind of profit arrangement. They sell they sell in that they talk about their or their

low margin which is true but many times they sell many products therefore it results in very big dollar profits. But they are very sensitive to public opinion and they feel that slight changes the loss of a few customers here and there could make a big difference in the dollars. So I suspect that more than than many other kinds of businesses they're reluctant to buy. Deal with newspaper people and it has gotten a little easier in South Florida. But it was very difficult in the beginning and you run against some stone wall so absolutely they will not return calls. Sometimes they can I don't mean to imply that that this is a total refusal to deal with the media frequently. They are out of there not available they really can't respond but often they don't respond. They're out of fear out of seeing no use in. In responding because they can't see where it will benefit them.

That's very interesting. You've been covering welfare. I can't think of a more important story. You're both covering very basic kinds of things the really big stories but even more difficult than the consumer stories probably is the welfare story. I'm I wrong or right on that. I agree but I don't think that that should be I don't think it should be difficult it should not be something that is. Given low priority and perhaps that's one of the reasons that it's that you don't read as much about it all what you read is not quite as clear to the general public as it should be. There are two ways of looking at it you can consider the importance in terms of the amount of money that goes into wealthy and I have to say that when I speak of wealthy I'm not talking just about the monthly check that goes to the mother

who is on AFDC Aid to Families with Dependent Children. To me the word is is useful in talking about all the kinds of support that society provides to the government for the people who are not able to take care of themselves. And it also touches on things that are not generally considered a part of welfare per se and that is how the resources of the country are divided. It has it affects the budgets who was Social Security and for health care. Pension plans everything that is provided through the government for the least able is how I would define it. And I'm expanding my awareness of it in my studies at Harvard and I think that it's significant to me because it has not been treated as a whole

in the media in general to my knowledge. We cover federal hearing and we cover a bill that's moving through the Congress says the Social Security and you know unity to the border. I don't think that the public knows enough about the effects the impacts of one part of this on another. And that's what I would like to do show the cohesiveness how it if it's affected and we're talking about nearly 200 billion dollars a year. According to the latest US there are still about. What was the figure 20 million people below the poverty line. Yes that's the that's the latest estimate I think. And the other I started to say that this is the one way of looking at it is that the money that it takes out of our national budget and local and state governments and the other way of looking at it which is probably the least the less significant to many people is just the way that the people we're talking about

live that is very important to me. Although it may not be a sufficient argument for creating a whole area of reporting on that basis but the lives of the people who cannot get a job who cannot get decent housing who are not being. Trained to raise the standards of living who are not being paid even to expect to have it raised. And it boils down to the question of why is it assumed that there will always be poor people among us or people as poor as many of us now. I was in Fiddler on the roof where is it written that this should be so. What was the story I was bought or that the post nominated you for the Assuming that there was a story that instigated it for the Pulitzer Prize. I presume it was in this area. Yeah well it was a series of stories actually that I did in conjunction with one of those people would have primarily and sometimes with other people I mean and and it was a story that was both a plus and a minus to me to put it very

simplistically. I covered since early 976 in Washington what was called the Department of Human Resources and it was the largest city agency it had to do. I did ministered everything from X treatment cash payments to the welfare program mental health the whole range of social services in the city and most of the stories that I vote that ended up in that package that we wrote had to do with the. Behavior should I say of the personalities the people who ran that department and that was certainly newsworthy. But I think that it probably usurped some of the space and time and energy that should have gone into the nature of the department and the programs that it was responsible and is still responsible for. So as important to me as that nomination even though that was a thrilling experience to have your paper say will

you. We think that you your work is worthy of this major prize. But as important to me was the fact that the city decided to exam and study and think about reorganizing and breaking up that department I believe. Primarily or largely on the basis of the stories that that we had done showing what was wrong with it he said. You certainly demonstrate that you got involved. You just don't report things that are happening. Well what makes for. What do you think would make for better news coverage than to have genuine and individual concern from the reporters about what the right about. Well it's seems to me it's absolutely necessary and I agree with you. I'm Ali Sinclair What was that kind of a spotlight team as we say. As they say on the Boston Globe Boston Globe Spotlight team that was often running the story that you

won your prize for something like that what we had was a team of five reporters. I was one of the five I did some of the marketing aspects of the story which dealt with auto insurance which is a very big event in Boston these days always is in fact reading those stories reminded me of what we did last spring at the Herald when this was I suppose the crest of auto insurance problems there. Let me just say the Miami Herald so we don't get me started OK. At any rate that we produced ultimately about 12 to 15 stories. Each member of the team wrote three or four stories and was responsible for a certain area of auto insurance. There were there was in addition to that there were there was one main story leading off site telling people what we were going to prove. Then the stories that followed proving

what we said would approve and then the final story which said OK we are wrapping it up and essentially we went into the the the discrepancies in territory prices how one driver would pay this amount because of an address because of the kind of car he drove because of the A of the driver because the driving record. We got into the insurance company profits and some of the disasters on Wall Street which led to the problems in Florida and in other states and we got into the fraud and the ambulance chasing which was going on. It was it was every aspect of the auto insurance crisis as we saw it and I suppose the story that I did in that that I must enjoy it had to do with red lining. We did our own survey in which we sent Drew Taylor line on a part of the city and you know it was it was not that not even really it was much more subtle much more subtle the kind of

red lighting you're talking about would be illegal. This was more of an art of redlining rather than an actual Well plot and you know it had to do with the fact that auto insurance in itself it involves underwriting based on certain rules and regulations and those rules and regulations are by their very nature discriminatory and it's discrimination. The next thing you have is redlining. And so in that sense it was very definitely obvious that certain drivers were paying this amount of money twelve hundred dollars fifteen hundred two thousand dollars a year for the privilege of driving a car whereas other people in more favored categories were only paying a few hundred dollars. The insurance companies were not pleased with this description of some of what was happening. But we had done our own surveys and we were able to provide.

A clear picture of of how it was being done and we were very careful to explain that this description was it was not the kind of the thing where you had a map and where there were specifics because we were concerned about libel in that case. And because it is illegal to redline I suppose you would have to. You cannot say that that is happening in because of the legalities. But it was but we were able to use the term as it applied in the sense of an art form. That was one of the pieces. You have the these stories eventually were submitted for the contest. And as I said they did take the state Prize one of the other things that happened was the state legislature took up auto insurance

in the in the following session and spent nearly the entire time debating what should be done did not reach a consensus and eventually did change the law but it's still uncertain as to as to whether or not there's been an improvement. We may have to wait a while before we we see some some some improved. We've got a couple minutes left to ask this question Has anybody tried to stop you from telling the truth on a story. I'm not talking about being up to Super abstract or saying we're not favorable toward that image. Have you run smack dab up against don't do it. Well I don't know if it up if this isn't an answer directly to your question but one of the one of my favorite incidents was in Baltimore about two years ago when I was covering a trial at the federal courthouse. And as a part of the trial which was in us the lawsuit that had been but by prisoners in the Maryland state prison system

against the federal against the government the judge was going into this. Prison to view it as a part of the fact finding. And I was denied access because as the warden said he was afraid that I would suffer some psychological damage because of the conditions. And he based this on the fact that they would be partially clothed men in the end I was a woman and it was fairly obvious to me that I was not being allowed in because I was reported better than the sex. Well the excuse was it was just a variation of the old ones and half and half a minute. Well they do you have any thing of that nature. Nothing comes to mind right now. That sounds very good. I'm very pleased to hear it. Well I'm very very pleased that today you join me because there are so many misconceptions about the press about being a reporter. Everybody always approaches it in the grandiose style of tell us about journalism or tell us about the whole field. And you told us about what it is to do specific things and I appreciate it. And so thank

you again for being here today Molly Sinclair of the Miami Herald and Alice binder of The Washington Post. This is Bernard Rubin saying goodbye for today. The Easterner Public Radio Network and cooperation with the Institute for democratic communication at Boston University has presented the First Amendment as a free people a weekly examination of civil liberties in the media. Unlike the 70s the program is produced in the studios of WGBH Boston. This is the eastern Public Radio Network.