Byline; Senator Saltonstall

Good evening. Our guest tonight needs very little introduction for he is so well known. He is Massachusetts senior senator. Leverett Saltonstall son of the salt installer served in the Senate since 1945. Before that he was speaker of the Massachusetts House of Representatives and governor for an unprecedented six years. He's ranking Republican on the Senate Appropriations and Armed Services Committees. He also serves on the Select Committee on Small Business. The senator is chairman of the joint Senate House Republican leadership conference questioning some of the softball will be Myron Spencer associate dean of the College of Business Administration at Northeastern University and a very familiar face from WGBH. Peter Richards Massachusetts state route. House reporter for WGBH and myself Robert there I'm a Boston University. And WGBH I'm sure that one of our panelists will ask the son of the question uppermost in most of our minds whether he will seek a fourth term. If they don't I will. Mike. Well Bob you practically put the first I think you're right in my mouth.

Senator some star would you like to give us the scoop of the year. I'm all for cyber spend time I can't give you the school to the end credits. I honestly can't tell you at the moment whether or not I'm going to run again. I try to keep my mind open. And I know that I must reach a decision fairly soon and I intend to ever existed but this is not yet the time is not this not yet to time not on another word to do because you have not reached a decision rather than that you won't tell us what it is that is correct. Well just discussing it theoretically. There is a lot of talk in political circles that. There is a disadvantage to not allowing younger politicians to have a crack say at the high offices like playing Santa do you think that if you sort reelection that this would discourage some of the very capable young Republicans such as Lieutenant Governor Richards

and I would hope Rod I think in Washington as you gentlemen who are well experienced in public affairs know service much more efficient able of experienced service can be of considerable assistance to the state. And I would hope that I had some experience down there now that would be helpful. And then also seniority. Mr. Ballard was good enough to mention that I was the senior Republican on on three committees and chairman of the Republican senatorial conference and of course that does help a toy a considerable degree in getting information and in getting things done in Washington are those facts of value in determining whether to run again. On the other side of course is. We want to keep current continuity of service and build up a young man and

get them interested in politics get them interested in government because government is doesn't. Politics is nothing but government. And I say with a smile when I'm asked what my business is I put down I'm a politician and I say that I do that deliberately because I figure politics is the. Service in government. And if I can say truthfully and and honestly that I'm a politician and give service why then I ought to quit anyhow. Well Senator since you've said you have made up your mind that is true. This means that there is a possibility you will retire. Now that said Come on question. I think I've I think I've given you a very proper Onslow what I was going to go once and didn't. You have allowed that this is a possibility by not saying I think you've not made up your mind if you do decide to retire. Would you endorse a candidate before the Republican state convention.

I would say in Syria I answer that hypothetical question and I've always supported the Republican convention. The candidate to the Republican convention and I would expect to do so. Did I follow you and particularly for I was one of them. Let me follow that with something that Congressman Jim Clyburn who have been talking about Senator he's been talking about pushing the bill. To put a limit on the number of terms that a when a member of Congress can hold. How do you feel about this. I think that it depends on the push the entire way. I don't have a number one I don't think such a bill would pass. Number two I think. Every man who goes down then holds up his hand takes an oath. Intended to be of service to his state and his country and how much how good that service will be how long he can serve is really a push decision a Each man's case and I don't think you're going to gain anything by putting a limit of terms on it. You put a high premium on the advantages of experience and seniority do you know that's I do I mean I think anyone will tell you that

that. There is much more that can be accomplished by it with seniority and with the experience because it's recognized down there. I say with a smile. I never go into the elevator in the Senate office building the head of a man who I know is my senior. Without his pushing me in and he doesn't often push me as he goes and I push him in. Now this is a way I want to get ahead of somebody else. Again Senator try to put you on the spot you. I've heard you talk very often about the advantages of seniority. Yet we've had a lot of problems here in Massachusetts about closing of military bases. You're the senior Republican on the Armed Services Committee. It doesn't seem that you have been able to persuade Secretary McNamara to change his mind. We know that Congressman McCormick is this is the speaker of the house. Oh my I have a high regard and a long friendship and I think that he's involved not only this but perhaps today in the Army base but I think that we've got to look upon all

those close games. With. Care and be realistic and see what we can do to be of help and yet realize that we've got to cut down a certain number of those bases and I think in the Springfield Armory case that we have made out a pretty good case and I've told Mr. McNamara that to his face and I that I think there is merit in particular merit in the Springfield Armory and what it work it does and essentially now I was in need of small arms and the improvement of small arms the Springfield Armory perhaps had more experience than any other one factory or armory in the country. What do you think Secretary McNamara is a man who doesn't like to change his mind. No not necessarily. Perhaps he's tired to change of mind has he. He works very hard making up his mind has he ever changed it. Not too often not too often but we have been able to

persuade him a bit or he's taken what we've done in Congress on aircraft carriers and number of years and they're not necessarily late they are and matters of their character. The number of Marines the number of. On the airplanes and and so forth. This is all. Senator if I remember my federal government properly the president of the supposed to nominate judges with the advice and consent of the Senate. That's right on my end correct I'm so ming that in the last half century if not a little more that the Senate has assumed the role of nominating the judges with the advice and consent of the president. No I don't think I shall Miss Baron. The I can only give you the answer of the eight years that President Eisenhower was the president because then the report I would say as a Republican the burden fell on me all the opportunity fell on me. And the three judges that I nominated were all recommended by the attorney

general and at to the president. Now I never saw the president on any one of those. I say I did contact the attorney general. And it's customary for the member for the member of the Senate from that state to suggest names and if they if they're both Republicans and they can get together on a name or are both Democrats now and get together on a name that name is submitted to the attorney general the attorney general generally asked the Bar Association's and for advice and then he submits the name to the president. I did that. McCaffrey daily are rich and Tony Julian in the case of McCaffrey General Eisenhower gave him a recession appointment. President Kennedy came along and while he was mine nominee at my recommendation President Kennedy finally appointed him. You generally give the president more than one choice Senator.

That's really that's really the attorney general's responsibility I don't think that a United States senator should go forward to the attorney general with more than one choice. If the attorney general says no that I for some reason or other that man isn't the right man then there he go back on this as if the senator could recommend somebody else. But that's the way it's done to my in my experience anyway. I'd like to get back Bob if I may for a moment to the issue of the defense closings. Your member Senator of the Joint Committee on the reduction of non-essential federal expenditure that is correct which leads me to ask the question do you think there is a lot of water in the current federal budget. And are you advocating some some measures to cut back. Well I did in the last session of the program on two of the programs especially on the foreign aid. I got a cutback that was adopted in the Senate and then compromised

in the house on the on rent subsidies in the Senate we lost it by eight votes the House it cut it out and it was cut out in conference. Now on the services. There were no I can't remember any substantial reduction because of the situation in Viet Nam. Actually we have appropriated two and a half billion dollars more. Two billion to a million dollars more calls yet damn in the last month or so of the session and I think there will be at least 5 billion dollars more come up in the in the early part of next January. Are you worried about the inflationary implications of the heating up of the Vietnam situation. Yes I am I think the I think it will be very important to determine what the president recommends in his budget. Now we have a very heavy military expense over there in Viet Nam and taking care of that we've got people in Santa Domingo.

We've got people in Korea and five divisions in Germany and now we've got those expenditures. And I think the great question is how fast the president will go in pushing his his. Great Society expenditures on bills that have already been authorized and where there are preliminary appropriations. Now there are bound to be heavier increases in those appropriations in the next year. And of course the president can slow down those programs and the Congress can stroll down even if the president submits larger figures. I take it then you're happy about the recent rise in the discount rate. I die of that. That's a very fair question and I have a very up and down run. Yes I would be borne in favor of it and against it as a realistic citizen if you want to call it that. I don't want we don't want to slow down the economy too much but we don't want to.

Make the inflation that takes us out of all bounds. Just getting back to the closing of some of our defense installations. Everyone now seems to point to the case made out by our congressional delegation and Springfield Mayor Ryan against closing the Springfield Armory and how good a case it was and everyone seems to be sloughing over the case that was originally made for keeping open the Watertown arsenal. Is this a form of recognition that most of the hullabaloo over closing of one town. Our arsenal was just political. No I don't think so in each instance I think leave the motive looking into these questions depends upon the number of people who are working in those plants and the necessity for the continuation of the of the plants. Now as I said I think in the Springfield Armory we've made we've had a we've got a good case and I've tried to do everything I could. I think we've got to be

realistic to realize that I was very doubtful if President Johnson will overrule a Mr. McNamara. And I think we've got to remember that it's an administrative decision. What can Congress do or Congress can refuse or an appropriation if there is one. All of Congress can make an investigation and show up. A great number of facts that would say that the decision of McNamara was wrong. But they've got to go a long way and I think the Booz Allen Hamilton report. Shows up makes several points that I think we can make a reasonably good case on. And then there is in addition to that to the question of costs and so on and that the account name Downey in Springfield has done an exceptionally good job of that. So what are some of the critics of the Viet-Nam policy have said there has been no meaningful dialogue about the Viet-Nam affair and Congress and some

say that since we're moving into an election year we can expect less of this. As a member of the Armed Services Committee the senior members of your party long member of it. Do you feel that Congress has neglected to really discuss this as openly and critically in this your damn question sir. No I don't think so Mr Baron. There have been a number of speeches on the floor of the Senate. It was a relation too with the president's decision opposing the president's decision. I think up to the present time the great majority of senators at least and I think the house too are in favor of and supporting the president's action. Now I supported I've supported him for a very simple reason. I think Mr. Rush explained it the best that I have seen in a perfectly off the off the cuff speech before the needle parliamentarian conference in New York where I was a delegate. And he said in substance we've given our word to those people to assist them. Now if we go back on our

word and drop out of the FM then what's going to happen in. To wash with the people people think of us about us in the Philippines in Japan and in Asia and Africa and in the OAS in South and Central America. I think that it's a simple question of living up to our word. Now I don't think we're in that war over there. To make an unconditional surrender. But I think we are it up to the present time in a way to make it clear to the other people who live Vietcong or the North that to me is that we want to see realistic negotiations conducted. And we're willing to go forward with them. That President Johnson has said that any number of times and Russia said it very recently. Senator in line with Bob's question about the Vietnam situation in several public appearances one of which I heard myself when you addressed a group when the Carlisle student center was dedicated at Northeastern you seem to be quite

distressed at some of the student reaction to the Vietnam situation. Are you or are you is it your feeling that that some more positive restraints should be applied to student dissent in this regard. No I think we've got to take the position Mr. Spencer that a student so you or I or any or any leaders or responsible people have a right to expression shows whether we agree with the government on not. But I think we've got to do it within the law. And what I have makes me shudder is to have boys tear up their draft cards because that's a direct disobedience of the law. And I object to injury to property and to people that we've seen. But I think if people live within the law. Now this recent March on Washington as I know was conducted within the law and very responsive responsibly. I hated to see Viet Cong flags flown I don't think that is responsible to you. But it isn't against the law.

Do you think that the penalty set by Congress for destruction of a draft card was a reasonable penalty. And a lot of criticism. Well I very frankly Miss Roberts I helped to draft out a law recently and I had forgotten that there was such a family I think we want to make that Pelley a severe one yes some of them go to the essence of our government Scuse me is there any major difference now. Between Republicans and Democrats in the prosecution of the Vietnam affair. No I don't think so I would say that in the last session of Congress the Republicans as a whole or supported the president more unanimously than did the Democrats. Would be OK. Would you go along with the bombing of Hanoi that some speak of as an aside I said Mr Baron I said recently that if the president made that decision I'd go along with it. Now that decision had Oyo Hi pond. Hi Fung. Those those had to very very difficult decision in my opinion because it

involves a question of the Chinese communists. And if the Chinese communists come in how way where does Russia stand. And today we know that Russia and the Chinese communists dogs points and of course each other. Whether or not we would force the Russians in if we did that. That's a very very difficult decision. And I've stated that if the president went along with the I don't think they would bomb high Ponk I think they would put my aids to prevent the ships from coming in. As I understand it we couldn't put our own ships in there because it's a sort of a landlocked Bay and they would just be. Sitting ducks. But what we can't do is to mind the entrances to the harbor. Are you saying in effect that whatever the president does you feel Congress will back him. I think at the present time that that is true. I think it's very essential that if Congress backs the president it should back it that

came very unanimously almost unanimously will get 100 percent vote. But if it was a 51 to 49 vote I think it would be very unfortunate but I don't think it would be today. And we've done a lot of skipping around on this I want to get back to the subject of judicial appointments in the one I call a short unhappy federal judicial career of Francis Marcy. A Your action and in withdrawing your no objection statement on that nomination was considered one of the crucial blows to to that. Appointment. Do you think that. If you're your Democratic colleague Senator Kennedy misjudged the reaction in recommending that this was a political blunder or oh what do you think. Well I can have yeah I can speak for my colleague Senator Kennedy who is a very able and certainly has a very

great knowledge of politics and all that. I situation I can say truthfully that I in no way at no time. Did I criticize Marcy push noted. And I haven't and I haven't and I don't intend to. Now the way those appointments go the President Kennedy John Kennedy never filed and never objected to any appointment that I recommended except with one exception where we worked it out and I take that policy it was a relation to Senator Ted Kennedy and I wanted to continue it. And I filed a no objection but on the testimony that was brought out I thought it was quite clear that there should be further consideration given to that a point. Well doesn't the did said nothing push the league gets more of it off in effect the withdrawal of your neutrality. It becomes a positive active objection doesn't it.

Well. Yes or no it. I simply intended that and carried it through because I believe that the committee should hear further testimony on the testimony that had been submitted to the subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee. But why do you think that most of the criticism of the appointment editorially was directed at Senator Kennedy rather than President Johnson. Well I'd rather have I'd rather have somebody else answer that question. I I have no inside knowledge of Democratic partisan politics our colloquy or anything else you think this is just an outsider from the Democratic Party. Do you think the whole incident impeded Senator Kennedy's. What appears to be is a long range drive for the presidency. No I don't.

Now let me go over to our state house reporter and get you off the hook. SANTORUM Right. You're on the you're on the right you're on the record in another area that we I think we've neglected so far. I notice that some some groups some organized labor groups are a little unhappy with your stand on 14 the repeal. What is your current view of the 14th but I'm sure I've missed suspension I've taken no position on that I'm taking the position that until I know what the amendments that are going to be attached to that I would not to say yes or no as to how I should vote. Now I voted against cloture I voted against cloture because I knew that there were 75 amendments at least that were going to be offered to that bill if it was debated. And I felt that the great many most of the members of Congress in fact I heard the statement that only two members of car of the Senate were really I wanted to see the matter discussed last autumn. And you see it was what was it a 45 to 47 goal which was

far from two thirds. And I think some of those votes because of the end of the session and because they felt that it would be that Congress would stay in debate for a long time and I've staed just as clearly as I can and I will not commit myself still pro or con on that 14 be until I see what amendments are attached. Do you think the 14th has been advantageous to organized labor or the other way around. Well that's a hard one denies labor feels that it has not been. I'd On the other hand there are 19 states I think 16 of them controlled by Democrat governors and Democratic legislators of 14 or 16 I don't remember exactly which. And that could be those could be laws could be repealed at any time if the people of those states which had supported this in some instances constitutional amendments wanted to repeal them.

Now whether it's to the advantage or disadvantage of. People who work here in Massachusetts I know that the labor people feel that it is to their disadvantage. But I think that industry will lose out in other areas. On the other hand at the present moment we have the lowest unemployment I think in 10 or 15 years. I saw the figures the other day and I think I'm great saying this three point six percent under You've been home for a while now as next governor you must be an arrest in what's been going on with Beacon Hill. What's been your reaction to the sales tax seesaw that's been going on. Well I think the governor the governor has exercised Mr. Baron a great deal of energy and a great deal of courage if you will and persistence it working for the sales tax on questionably and the state these more revenue. And where is it the best way they can come. Now I personally have stated that while the state business

is not within my jurisdiction and that I believe that probably the governor is has he has hit the place where the IT we can get the most revenue. A senator to go into a completely new area. You file sponsored some legislation to aid the fisheries industry in many areas that the federal government I understand will pay up to 55 percent of the cost of new fishing equipment providing it meets certain requirements such as boats being suitable for defense use and so forth. Some countries such as Canada and A-stan pay up to 90 percent of the course. Do you think that there's a need for the federal government to go more into the area of subsidizing. I doubt it will because of the question of subsidization. Now we have I think a building subsidy of ships are about 50 percent an operating subsidy I think 60 percent but I'm not sure absolutely sure of that figure. Now there is a very considerable resistance

to putting the fishing ships into that subsidy. And we got it in. Now what we've got to do is to improve the fishing industry is to get modern equipment. One of the great difficulties we have in competing with the Russians with Canadians and so on is the is the antiquity of our equipment of our ships and that that is what we've got to overcome at the present time as well as. The areas in which we can fish now are you see Iceland or go out just to three or four or five miles and catch a fish the Canadians will come out a short distance we've got to go 48 60 hours or whatnot before we can get to the banks and get back again. So we've got all those problems to face now with the sort of stalled Kennedy research bill I think has helped us and these subsidies have helped us. Senator that old clock has come around as you know Congress and the

tides nor anything else can stop it. So our guest this evening United States senator Lebrecht salt install your panelist the associate dean of the College of Business Administration at all these new university Myron Spencer who also is someone you have seen many times in GBH Pete Richards Massachusetts reporter for beauty age at the State House and Robert Barron here last University in WGBH. Good evening.