Studio Talk; Art in Process

Our guests this evening are Eleanor regal hot director of the Eleanor regal hub gallery and Lisa Gallatin assistant director on the program on the panel this evening are Lee working borough president fol. Associates a dentist being a new member of the teachings of faculty at the Massachusetts College of Art. We'll be talking this evening about her aren't in process. But before we do that I Want I reveal how I was just about a year ago that you were on this program and we talked about the new gallery and town. And I wonder how you view your year your first year as a gallery director. First thing I think to say is with amazement that it actually WAS IT HAS BEEN A YEAR YET that it was a very exciting year as that how the question in my mind and. When I enjoyed it so tremendously I think I was a lot more apprehensive

about the role I was to play at that time than I even recognized myself. And I'm equally excited this year about the year coming up. Did you find that the year developed pretty much along the lines that you had expected you you talk to that time in terms of playing a role of a gallery almost functioning as a museum as well as a commercial gallery. Feeling that there was more to just running a gallery than showing art and selling it. Well. I don't think I talked about playing a role such as a museum. I think I meant if that was the impression I left rather to say that I felt it was important that galleries serve in a capacity that

backs up rather than ignores what is of the moment. I spoke at length I think about the role of the Institute and the importance of what it does in in Boston toward exposing the our community to the new Let's leave it as the brief understatement of. And I think that in many ways I do. Did bring to Boston works that otherwise might not have been shown. I also thought it was important to establish my own self. The quality of me the dealer. By showing works that established my judgement in terms of taste and so on and quality and so many shows had that quote museum

orientation possibly the most common cause of museum functions in between. Yes I never ending Manny's area for this not do it all at the same time have commercial or normal gallery. Possibilities I don't think that the year disproved the fact that one can mix the two aspects of OT. Lisa gallant and you're in the gallery. Most of the time how has the public reacted to this I don't recall writing to Boston not specifically the show but in general I think you had in complete fairness have to say rather mixed and I think that that is fine. In fact I think that really is quite terrific that some people will like the show and Ill be wild about it. They'll come back they'll

bring their friends still send their relatives and so on. Other people won't like the show but at any rate. Most people have to stop and think when they come into the gallery which does change we rather purposefully change things around move tables benches and so on so that you can't just walk in and out. Very few people do. They walk in look around and then they might walk out. Other times they'll stay longer. You get the feeling that you're driving some people away. Words are new people constantly come back month after month so I have to show a lot of people come back show after show after show. You can talk about a mixed reaction and I wonder whether you've had the reaction of people saying I will never come back. No is in fact another I know you'll say that extreme. It's not that strange they might say I'll never come back to see this show again but

I'll come back next month. Also I think that we can say well this particular show doesn't interest you. Come to your next show or the one after that perhaps that will be more interesting. You know. In other words I think we've tried very consciously to present a wide variety of OT. And I I don't have a soap and something for everyone. But I think that it worked out to be. Fairly true that the variety of works. The number of shows that we did do and artists whom we did show well. This in itself is rather staggering for me to review and whether the extent of it was as apparent

to our guests in the gallery I don't know but to review last season was a phenomenal experience. We do change shows every three weeks. Usually that's a fairly rapid turnover. There are a lot a surprising amount of regulars people who when they're in town will stop and see what's happening. Some people are actually somewhat disappointed that we don't change shows everywhere he really we were. What would you say was your greatest booboo. What was the thing that you wish you hadn't done. Who is this being directed toward. Well I try and think which one it was. None of the graders actually I would not say that anyway. One thing I immediately comes to mind.

I am not begging the question at all easy I honestly feel that every thing that we did do this past year was very profitable to us in terms of all that we learned. I could say that we've learned so much in one year of having the gallery that I wonder the extent of all that there is left for me to learn that I still don't know. It's been as much of a revelation to me I think is anything any experience I've ever had where I found the courage to start out on such a venture I don't know I'm glad I didn't know what with involved I might not have done it. And it's just too rewarding. I'd like to ask another intelligent probing sensitive question How's business. Well do you want. How would you like Lisa than that. She has a lot to do with the book.

I think it's fine I'm perfectly happy. I know that I spoke seriously about that problem of the first year of what it's like to open a gallery and I'm sure that a significant part of the effort is establishing some sort of business sense to the venture. And the fact that you're here for a second year means it must have worked out all right. I mean in general does this mean that do you think that this means that there's been an approval by the buying public of what you're trying to present to them. Or do you think anything sells these days. No not really any does it also take the dealer's parotid of again to say that I think I. Have given much thought to the whole question of how one measures success and along the lines that we spoke last year. My

value structure of my. The moral principles we discussed in my goals in starting a gallery have not changed at all. Now you ask how's business and I say business is marvelous because I think that the risk bonds to what we have done has been as mixed in a financial sense as has it been in except where the one follows the other. Of all things have not been equally successful in pleasing. This it is All Things have not been purchased to the same extent but that we have met with some success in every instance. It is in a way satisfying because that means that great big bull but with that you can make somehow

a fortune prevented us from doing it. Then this night well I wasn't in Boston last year so I unfortunately you know couldn't see the results of your first of your shows I'm sorry that I couldn't do that but I'll take more active interest now and I. I am hearing you talk the first few minutes. I just I think now become aware of the fact that a dealer such as yourself has access to to many many many different things which you could show in and the question came up to me of that how this must be quite a problem or is it a problem in terms of what to show do you find that you have as a dealer to make quite you know a strict and difficult decisions on what to show such since the time is rather limited. Throughout the year I mean you have how many shows maybe you are in the season. Last year we did 13 or just shows and I think that was a good deal more well I think and I know this is very smally Alessandra just a little

gallery. Yes what you could show also is this a difficult decision you find that this is a has to do with what interest show is really sitting down defining choice and refining perhaps how do you make a choice have you decide what artist to choose from we have. That's a good question. Do you have some of those standards. You know what makes a painting. What makes something you want to show something on a gallery wall looks quite different than it does in a studio or in somebodies house or in a museum. It's a tough question just what you show and a gallery I think. How does the gallery go about making news decisions. Well I'd say that we are delighted by the amount of people to begin with who come into the gallery to show us their work. Many people do and say half a dozen dozen a week easily easily I should think so.

So there it is there they have an entire year laid out if you just look and if you just accept everything that comes in in one week. That's right. Also upon one's travels to New York or around the greater Boston area New England one does come across artists who we would like to show who have never been seen before in Boston. You know and you have to make a choice somewhere. All of these 12 people that come in during the week obviously are going to say no to at least 11 among that 11. You know that there are some people who I say no to really doesn't matter because for one reason they're they're either very young or they really are very seasoned. So you just don't you just say no and you don't worry about it. But I'm sure there are times when someone just let me finish my question. When someone comes in who. He's obviously a very sincere it's been wrapped up in this thing that we call art for

15 or 20 years has gotten to the point where he's doing something that is offbeat enough to be called Original really within his own framework. And you look at it and you say to yourself you know that's that's pretty good but not for us not for gallery. Well then you sit down and think for a minute you try to figure out where would be a good place for this artist. And if you know of a place offhand another gallery perhaps you might call up that other gallery and say this is happened to us that this has several times that we have come across artists who I can think of two or three right off the bat we like very much we've liked but for some reason didn't quite fit into the gallery for some reason therefore we might you might say why don't you call on so-and-so we'll call and say that you're coming.

Also when somebody one of these hypothetically misfits or whatever the eleven out of the 12 one of these people do come in it's very hard to say just pass it off. We don't have room for you. You can't say that. It's a responsibility to look at every portfolio that comes in. Which we do. And when there is this originality. It was your word. And you recognize a serious commitment immediately even if it isn't seasoned. You can tell you quite often usually. And I still would reiterate what I said at the outset before really being launched that the hardest thing one has to do in a gallery. Even when you clearly are not interested and cannot be interested. Thanks but no thanks I

know that there's a deep projection of feeling that these and I both have when we say we talk with artists who come to show us their work we hope we are encouraging. We hope we are keeping friends and we hope we. We are not. Shutting the door on anything else because we do ask that we're be brought to be shown to us again at the same time I think you realize how difficult it is for an artist to to take his word to do that. That's another point fairly difficult. A lot of this is showing up artist work artist looking for galleries looking for a place to show their work. It's not really done by artists themselves which is certainly not to negate the very fact of an artist who does show his work. But again us how we do choose these artists we show a

certain amount come to us from other galleries friends outside of the city or even within it's not a deadly rivalry all the time. I don't like to think of it as rival really at all. No people insist upon thinking in terms of. Art galleries being businesses and therefore that competition exists. Well I still don't accept that. I think two galleries don't show the same artist. And I think that there is a wonderful market in Boston for galleries. I still wish there were many more galleries and I think each gallery will find the success that its artists deserve and I I mean that the gallery is really not any better than the art it shows in the final

analysis reworked. I get the impression that you have a larger group of artists associated with your gallery than other galleries Is that true. I think that's probably true yes. You sure often have shows with three artists and for artists where others may have wanted to. And it's also seems that each with each show running for about three weeks when it changes you will not have repetition so I would roughly guess that you may have some 25 artists or something like that associated with you Gary. And isn't that a larger number than most others. Yes I would think that it would be because the problem is in keeping artists happy to be able for the calendar to. Have frequent openings for that one man show that an artist always desires even though his work may not really be ready for another one then show the artist

wants it. The number of artists I think at the moment stems from the fact that we are a new gallery and that at the outset suddenly you know that you have a gallery and you don't know what you're going to show. And whenever there was the opportunity of the work of an excellence that I felt worthy of showing I am. I embraced it and I lived happily include the artist which is why I was very proud to present two New England artists shows this past year that. One head for us wanted Fogarty's the some of these artists are going to have one man shows this year. They all cannot should not or will not. But the stable if that's what we can call it we is in a process of flux at all times. Some

artists won't be with us new artists will be with us one day. The goal is to have a very strong basic number of artists and I still think that's an X Factor I don't know what that ideal number is but Orso have it allow for the opportunity to do the creative show that that you wish to do without in any way neglecting the back bone of the gallery. Not to have a fixed image in the community's mind but to be ever growing ever changing and always ready for a wonderful opportunity. I just well I think the current show is just an example of that leeway which I would always want to have a lot of you know if you're setting up a rather thinks dimensional You know in the present time and if

you're going probably to answer that question better than I can. I don't know what the fixed image would be. I don't know but I just can you tell me what you think it is. Well that's what I was going to ask you from from our end of it. I'm going into the gallery and seeing it there there appears to be a me particular philosophy or position. I. Know that you have taken. Which seems to be to show the work of a particular character that is generally of non-current generally tends to herd the expressionist. I didn't see it as opposed to the the classical or. The representation. You know what do you mean. Are you talking about geometric and young on the hard edged. Yes I see what you mean.

I would have liked to have thought we were showing such a variety of artists each with their own individual I think expression that if there is a fixed image it would be that it is a gallery of them. Frequently changing shows and exciting galleries you stop into and then I would agree with Lisa that you would you like it or you don't but that you know Cillian there be something else to say. But you certainly wouldn't say that you cover the entire spectrum of what art is being produced today that made you cover a particular area. This is going through your gallery Doug. How do you define that particular area. I tried to indicate earlier that because an unarmed guard

flavor that it tends toward the the Expressionist right through an abstract abstraction and expressionism. I think it's inevitable that any gallery will have some sort of image or so bred with it whether as a New York one gallery may feel rather a specific image you think of several New York galleries and they are immediately identified with pop up or something like that and I think that's something that Mrs regal heart tries to avoid. And yet in avoiding it there is the inevitable choice you have to make a selection. Yes and I think out of this selection comes another type of image. That's right that's right. It's inevitable that there should be an end. I don't mind if the image evolves as one of a gallery that shows Paul all the

kinetic geometric hard edge because I think that's in fact what we have done in our first year and in the thinking quickly of what this year's calendar will be. I think we are again going to cover a very wide spectrum of art media and areas of the word so that I I I don't want to labor the point. I agree that one does have an image no matter what you show but I don't know whether an image could yet be fairly established in placing us as in a particular area such as that we are God. Well I don't think it's a bad word. Oh I don't at all because I think it's terribly important that Boston

do see and be exposed to what is not what is of the moment. It helps very much to understand the rest of what is now and perhaps is not thought of as of the moment. I don't like the terms of the minimal and pure war and yet this could also be said to be God so can so many other areas. I think that the art world is racing through many phases at the moment but so fast that the general public doesn't get time to get caught up with one before it's confronted with another. But that's what's exciting and that's what I would like to be thought of as trying in what in some way to to do to keep the heat to keep to

keep pace with us. No because I don't want to follow a fad I still want to make that choice that selection if it happens to fall within a realm of. The latest which is all that I'm not sure that is even an appropriate word for some I think that's appropriate because I think that every artist who has taken his work around to galleries has at one time or another heard we're not doing that type of thing in Boston today. You are in New York today. In other words you are not in step with what the going thing right now is the gallery won't touch you because it's not what they know is part of that had part of that work. The art world that is selling at that particular moment we would never say this to an artist who showed us his where. Growing up we would say to an artist whose work we saw we would love to show.

Who might involve the very nature of his work. Have enough similarity to an artist toward whom we already have a commitment that we would love to show your work but it would not be fair. At the moment and it your work should be seen and we urge you to continue this pursuit and we. I have picked up the telephone and said there is someone here who is extraordinarily good in my judgment and I would like to send him over. Have you looked at his work. I don't do that often because I only do it when I feel very strongly how I wish that I could have an opening to take this artist. Well you know I'm a WE GO HARD. You know Larry doing a show like the our art in process. Well because I think that it is very.

Exciting and educational experience what makes it exciting and what makes it educational. It's exciting because they are. I have chosen a group of young artists who are really on with the one exception and I consider that it is a great accomplishment to be the first person in Boston who has been able to show a merry Baumeister peace in this city. She's an artist with an international reputation. Well no one bought it. Why it is my privilege is something that if we would just not try to analyze but the fact is that this has been a great treat to many people. All of the rest of this show are young artists who are

now and who are working with new materials and in new concepts with personal inspirations that stem from their own educational experiences their own professional experiences. Many have been architectural students they have worked in industry and they are dealing with the material was of our time. I still feel very strongly that art as one of its functions should reflect its time. What are the new concepts of womankind. What is art can I interrupt for just a moment as you know to get back to the show for one moment. Yes leaving the artist behind so to speak leaving their work in the gallery. I think this is an exciting show and perhaps inspirational and certainly educational because of the very

nature of this show. The show gives one hope and insight into the creative process. You see in the show what went on behind the finished work. We've included notebooks. It's really fascinating to flip through somebody's book see what perhaps some of these inspirational little pieces were that evolved into a real sculpture. We've included working models. See how the artist's conception may have changed from working models to the finished piece drawings. Some of these drawings in line with Mrs. Reagan was saying about new technologies maybe drawings for the programming of neon lights flashing. But that's a great value of the show I think to show the Gallery visitor what went on behind the finished work.

I must admit that I was a little taken aback by him by this particular aspect of the show because I know that the that the the idea of the creative process as something that builds gradually is pretty well accepted and I know a number of artists who will continue with us this image kind of image building on how the artist creates by going ahead and doing what he what he can see and almost totally And does it and then will go back and do a little sit up and write the note you know in the space behind it so that when he has to show you it will look as you're developing everybody said Isn't that nice. Because it's not the way. No but I haven't seen this actually done it. A a group show and I think that what this does do. While I agree with you that the we all understand particularly

the artist understands and accepts the creative process the lay person or that the general public does not. They cost so much has happened so fast that they're rather lost. Well they let the general public has not ever been in an artist studio. The general public in fact is not pro used to seeing paintings hung on the wall I'm afraid. Thus I think it's really quite vital for the general public to use the general term. To see how a work of art could have happened. It happens often in a literate your you might pick up notebooks of so and so you might pick up little bits here and there but not in art which somehow has been guarded from those we printed a small brochure to go with the show it contains statements by the artist and

photographs to which is a rather amusing concept when you think of it. The photograph of the artist you buy a book a novel there is a photograph of the author on the back dust jacket. But when you buy a painting there isn't a photograph of the artist on the back. This is this is enhanced a little boring anyway. I don't know how I'm going to judgement on that. I think it's rather just kind of a something you like would you go. I can tell you that we put dust covers on them only when they're in our story there. But I do think that if I can say that the press EOS city of the artist and his product. Has in this show Ben broken down to the point where people suddenly think of Michael Angelo to

Ventry. It has been a long long time in the history of art that the artist's creative process has been as familiar with the finished product as this show attempts to make this these new works. And I think people are finding it very fascinating. Who I Am Not because of this fascination and such and sudden understanding therefore liking it more. I think that they are more comfortable about. The fact of the finished product we don't hear the things that I used to hear all the time in galleries. This is what is it. Is it a fraud that's being perpetrated. What you know is that

art that dark black dot on the white canvas well here however you see these words you do see the intellectual and emotional and personal approach. You may still ask is it art but that's another point really. I people are asking that question even when they see the stages of development. Just as a point of interest because I I know that generally when people look at something they say wow look at all the work that went into that because they can admire the work. But when you hear something that is finished the person looked like it was working. They feel cheated. That's a funny question. I haven't heard many people saying Is it art. I've heard people saying Well this certainly isn't like the paintings that we saw at the museum or the traditional painting. But I've also heard people say who objected very strongly during

all the hectic period of the Citgo sign going up that suddenly they can see the aesthetic aspect of it. Even the the sign this has in fact then related art to reality ought to to be. Well leave it to your your field to to advertise into the promotion of graphics the interrelatedness of all of this is very apparent I think and this is the point that people are gaining too. For us these are not to sit here and say that people love our love the show and everybody wants to buy everything and it isn't our objective anyway but that they are enjoying the show.

There is no question the show should be stimulating too provocative. Whether the feelings are all for the show or possibly some against it too. I think Osho really ought to make somebody think a little bit about what it is that's on the walls. What is art. The same question that was raised earlier when you show the mechanism of how the game works and how it develops. That one question that lies in the back of many people's minds when they look at something how was it done. He's gone bad as a nation is always great then it frees them to see it isn't as an object for itself or do not get them involved with the techniques and get them away from looking at it for the sake of looking at it. Well I think that would have as many answers as there are people who look at the show then as being I vote visit the exhibition and after a mild shock the first

one oh well you walk in and you see me on you know you leave some scars have taken me on off the streets and Brought it Inside this is in a way shocking right. Yes. Well now the title of the show are in process and as you mentioned earlier the fact that you have the working sketches visible right there by the completed work is very interesting I think that one point has been overlooked as fact that there are eight artists shown right. And a wide variety of of works there and I think that one interesting point is the fact that there are in various or different degrees of finished works or works and process I think that the Mary bar Meister that you mentioned earlier is a sketch as it was made it was she was sketching actually as she made the work as you see I mean really I look I found myself quite interested in that piece and that and when I say well I was able to be able to hold my interest right and become Zorba the thing and I looked at

it for a long time bending over and turning the wheels and it's made of plastic and glass and maybe we should describe these things. Someone you know reminds you of things such as shells that contains reducing lenses and magnifying glass parts and small drawings in pen and ink it's totally black and white and is in a box really about 130 by 40 inches. It's just that the rest horizontally at table height. Yeah and can you place it seems like a thousand things in there so you could spend a good deal of time looking at now the fact is that I would be interested in looking at working drawings or something of that I think that would take from the enjoyment of the work because I like to feel that when I'm looking at it I'm all I'm almost witnessing the making of the object whereas in turn and comparisons meet me on. One of the neon sculptures I look at that it's total I have to accept it and respond to it if I can it's somewhat difficult for me in

case I mean what they're really like but it's quite different I think this is rather interesting aspect these are different objects than me on stands there now that make glow or flash but it really just stands there. That is it. That's what it's all about. Now the power meister. The more you look at it and I discover little things here and there every day I found where she signed it today for instance. There also is a little note to ourself and other people too I imagine. I think at one point she became very tired of working on this and just wrote in a very free hand to be continued later at another point she was having trouble with the glue it wouldn't stick or something like that she wrote around one of these nuns. This clue will not stick something has to be done. When I mention her name how did you do it.

Well I think her statement in itself verifies what you've said Denys her sketches and her working plans are only reminders for what her original conception was and that she may in the process of doing the piece alter that too. And I did speak about the Meister being included in the show. For the sake of having Boston have about most of these to look at. And I happily am back from New York last night. I think been able to bring back with me some other pieces of hers to be seen. The response has been fantastic. To compare it to the neon which is more nearly part of the new materials new concepts of art. I would say that you then get involved in a light and in

space and in the sculptural qualities of space and in Tara Lee new. Up way from what will you would call traditional sculptural form an area we were member. I think that we are actually juggling here three distinct and very interesting concepts. One is the work itself as a piece of art. The second is the work itself with certain educational and background material. Bumping into the work and the two of them together almost representing a complete and distinct concept as a work of Ought I to live through. Oh really true. And then finally one in which the work of art is there. And then you consider the background material distinct from it and are in effect trying to

separate it from the work of art and hold it back as if it weren't there. That is to be considered by the viewer but not really to be involved in their appreciation of the work of art. I think it's only in that last concept. That you may be failing that is in a way you've got to realize that once you put the two things together the work of art and the supporting that you have something like can't be separate now. Absolutely I couldn't agree with you more there become too much of a pair. I think of several pieces in that show that well specifically to that I would like to own and these pieces I would like to have the sketches going with them. Perhaps I would show them all at once. Perhaps I wouldn't. Perhaps I'd put them in different rooms or something like that. But I agree this may and I think you suggest this. Her finished piece but it has to be

seen with the drawing that up to it. I'm not sure in a way there isn't a very sensitive judgement involved here that is yours and the gallery is acting as artists to a certain extent. You are perhaps creating our second category in my new piece of art and I think the artist doesn't object. I guess that's all right. No I agree with you very much that we have eight artists each presenting a group service or one piece. Now this one piece they present may be the finished work. And the two drawings said that up to it and the model it's a totality. And I think if anybody tried to separate them again as you suggest it well it becomes tricky. It really does quite a juggling of what is truly the piece of art and you add this new dimension that is the true piece of art that one should be talking about might be the

work. Plus these are yes and I think that all of you know that I think one thing I'm saying there is just remember this it depends on what the artist like I don't know as you how As far as how you manage the show whether or not you have entered into the picture as artist by doing this arranging and whether or not the artist has approved or disapproved whether it's a good idea from his point of view. But I want to fix the fact that in my opinion you have vented as artists because you have created this concept of a new work which includes the artist's work plus these other things and I think I think we should mention the fact that in many many cases here. Lee I agree Ceci what you said but I thought also feel it. The sketches leading up to some of the finished works are are not necessarily so to speak. Art works in themselves but are a necessity. You see now in terms of the heart the words that do in fact live up to. Yeah I'm not

taking them down necessarily but. But their electrical diagrams for example that are very interesting see you see in terms of being able to produce a program the night of the year I write yeah. And so these are charts these are charts now that that come under a new category since they become they come into the gallery on the gallery walls. So I'd say we were forced almost to were asked I should say should you look at them under a new as well as it turns out I'd have to agree with what Lisa said before I can picture myself as being very interested in owning a piece and in certain instances wanting to have those other pieces with it and possibly exhibit them together in possibly another time and I have to tell tell it actually. And I find that fascinating. Yes. Now I can think of other pieces where I would just as soon not see what went on behind them also. And it's a good works both ways it works both ways completely.

What would you do with your sculpture broke down that you didn't have the chart to show you what you call a neon sign maker. Really I mean that very seriously if you didn't have the timing on it you have you brought your neon sign maker and he did whatever he wanted to. Yeah. Then you have a different work wouldn't you. You would have to say you know what you know. Oh I see. Well perhaps so with one of these pieces Mary second vice Steven engine ACOs it's in the window. It came complete with a list of instructions. If for any reason this work of a heart should blow it to or something like that call in a good neighborhood neon sign maker. Also it did give a list of people in New York where this was made that had helped make it the men who did this sequential timing. That whole business the neon sign maker who

did help with that business and so on. But that brings a different problem and who you are. What do you do if you're new on where the bar breaks down or the electricity goes off. Well I will say that I know the industry Well art is ever changing and this is. Certainly a show of art that is being produced that logically follows what preceded it and by seeing this one will be able to better evaluate what is to follow. I I don't know but what again I have to say each person need evaluate the experience of the exposure to the show for himself. And I think it's interesting that we are trying to do so ourselves. But I would say too that we basically are talking about the first show the opening show of this

second year of the gallery and that it has proven to be provocative is true beyond any doubt. And this is I think a very good function of an art gallery whatever the individual reaction might be. This is these pieces these artists are facts that this exists is is truth and. I think that it's fun to have a show like this to come in and see. One of the new concepts that are being expressed. Well I think that they are a new sense of primarily a new sense of space. And a new sense of the uses in an aesthetic sense of the technological

progress that we have made a Trance formation of sound that Monday in their private practical use materials into what I consider to be an aesthetic expression. And what would what would be these new concepts of space. I think rather than having a sculpture. Take a certain use a certain volume of space. It is rather creating its own space. Light is now understood to have its own space. So that pertinent to those artists who are involved in the use of neon.

This is a very new use of this knowledge. In there were a mass of light displacing space is quite I think different from a caste Braun's piece. Using space displacing space in this sense I think we're dealing with a new sculptural concept I think too. In another instance we are dealing with a very refreshing pleasant and perhaps more general sense of sculptural in that one of the artists uses a space that is otherwise not used. And this is a polite

gesture. This is not to coin still another title for a movement in art because I. Really I don't know that they that any of them will ultimately hold up. What is a spacer going ordinarily used. Well there is a sculpture that can be placed high on the wall between oh you mean a window and ceiling and not utilize floor space which can be used for other purposes. In fact it is placed so that if one wishes one NOT need not even look at it. That in a sense is amusing is that while I'm at least glad I got a response. But it's it's a serious new kind of consideration. Unobtrusive perhaps unobtrusive is a good word.

The fact is that this artist almost starts with the premise that it is innate in human nature to collect things to possess things. Ought is one of those things that. Many of us are seriously addicted to collecting and we don't think of it as collecting useless things. And I don't want to talk about it all in terms of beauty etc. all the usual and obvious answers to why but that we do. Collat odd that it one way or another human being is a collector of things some how is related to this. A polite gesture of making it possible to get more into the cave you know it's the it's the it's a it's

to me a very real consideration. I don't propose to say. To what extent this will grow as a a basic premise or starting point for artists. But that it is and new to me thought for a sculptor ought to have is as refreshing as the simplicity and beauty of his work is satisfied so the concepts are very many and varied. I still think it comes down to a personal reaction to what you see as to whether you recognise that this is something new that you are seeing. We wouldn't know this art in process is

the title for the group of eight people. Yes. Is there any significance to the fact that only one of those is a woman. I've never thought of it actually takes as that to marry my sister who is full of significance and a significant artist. I've always felt good about the fact that I consider it a significant achievement and contribution to be able to have her wear seen at leisure in our community and I wonder what Lee is saying. How many women artists are there to begin with. That is my immediate reaction. There are many but that's really all I'm saying I'm wondering how many within the general talk we've had about the conduct of a gallery and its problems in the first year going back to the very beginning.

You might also know that the director is a woman who says directors are women but I might also know that that's an astonishing thing about Newbury Street. A lot of women running the place. There may well be but there are they outnumber the Yes Men. I think in let's say current. Significance power impact. Well you know we know now how much I don't like the job they are saying that I think as of right now the women are running Newbury Street no way. The women are running Newbury Street. It's not I'm not against that. These are world you know of the world that we don't have running galleries all running the galleries that seem to you to be of greater significance I say and in terms of the impact of what's going on and you bury ST I think women are very significant in terms of the gallery operation whereas in terms of production about there are few women

I know that may very well be an interesting point or probably a little bit just where what is that what just what does that mean really that a woman can be a gallery director perhaps. But it's awfully tough for a woman to be a good painter. I can really list on my left 10 competent women painters. I can think of it anyway. Right now I would only go how he said you know I think thank you very much for joining us. That's the pleasure. Thank you for asking us to.