WGBH Journal; Senator Edward Kennedy

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And I asked them what if they had a choice what would their priorities and their priorities were in education agriculture and industry and very little in military modernization. Then I asked him the same questions and I said you've read about the United States. What do you think that the United States where it where does it have to modernize. And the number one area that they mention was military. Senator Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts. Good afternoon and welcome this is GBH Journal and I'm Marcia Hirtz today's edition of GBH Journal is entirely devoted to an interview with Senator Kennedy who

returned on Sunday from a three week visit to China and Japan. He spoke with reporter David Friedberg this morning and discussed his trip. Senator Kennedy how far have we come toward normalizing diplomatic relations with Peking. I think first of all we have to consider it against the recent historical perspective. We had real confrontation with the PRC in the 50s in the 1960s. Now I think we have seen it come into a different relationship. We have over a billion dollars of trade over a year ago although that has been reduced in the period of the last year. Chinese businessmen are negotiating now for technology for the United States in the development of offshore facilities also in computer technology. I think that is an important responsibility for the United States to normalize its relations with the PRC. I think where this

alteration or change in policy will eliminate the interruption of relationships which we've had with the PRC for the period of the last 30 years it's against a historical context where we have the United Japan and China getting along getting along very well. Really the first time in this century the United States strong with Japan and the opportunity for the United States to to normalize its relationships with China is very real. We still have to get past the problem of Taiwan and that's a difficult complex issue. And I didn't come back from China with any new solutions to that or that problem but I've got some ideas about how the process of normalization can move forward. Well you have in the past called for full recognition of both Taiwan and the People's Republic. Is there any reason to believe this is acceptable to either of those two countries. No I haven't for 10 years I have stated that the recognition ought to be with the

PRC and have felt that I have stated to the lead is in China that I thought that the. Mood of the people of the United States was for normalization but that there was also a feeling of the people who live in the United States that they wanted to be assured of at least some peace and security and stability on Taiwan that we can expect that the PRC is going to give us those assurances because they have a matter of principle where they consider that to be an internal matter but the United States the American people at least have to have some sense some feel that that will be the case. Now there are a number of things that can be done which I think can create the climate an atmosphere in which the American people would have a sense of confidence about its future. And that is by getting to understand the PRC better and having them understand that the United States better that can be done through cultural exchanges it can be done with the process of the PRC permitting

some individuals to come to the United States to be reunified with their families particularly in cases of humanitarian interest can be reflected in a further drawdown of American troops on Taiwan. They are a can be an easing of the availability of some other technology such as in the computers. And then there are a whole range of different cultural exchanges. And then I think of pursuing in the global and the global front areas of common interests which we have with the with the PRC. All of these all of these areas can help for the United States to understand the PRC better and for the PRC to understand the United States better a common interest to me. Well the interesting fact of PRC foreign policy one that they want a strong United States

militarily secondly that they want a Japan that is influential viable and expanding and expanding their influence is in Southeast Asia three they want a strong Western Europe that's unified and for they want a strong medo. Now those happen to be tenants of American foreign policy on the basis of principle the principles of American foreign policy but they also happen to be areas of common interest with with China. And so we have parallel areas of interest in these in these areas and we have obviously other areas but these are the most significant and that is completely inconsistent with what the views of the PRC were to be the United States. Ten years ago I remember when I was in China that I polled a group of Chinese children I gave them six different criteria of interest talked about health and housing and education and agriculture

and industry and modernization of the military and I asked them what if they had a choice what would their priorities and the their priorities were in education agriculture and industry and very little in military modernization. Then I asked him the same questions and I said you've read about the United States. What do you think that the United States where it where does it have to modernize. And the number one area that they mention was military. I mean can you explain it because they perceive that their principal adversary is the Soviet Union not the United States. And these are school young school teaches in Changsha which is many hundreds of miles away from pay King but they perceive that as being the principal their principal adversary and not the American people and if this is a theme which has been reiterated by their leaders and as a part of their ideology it it really opens up some rather interesting opportunities for the United States.

Let's shift to some of your observations of life in China today. You visited several health care installations there can any of their medical policy be applied here. I think just a really two. One is the stress that they place on preventive health care. This has been something that's been going on for 25 years. And I think is this something we're only really getting getting into. They treat people for the common ailments and colds in the less expensive facilities and we are still oriented towards the more expensive facilities. Getting a full fledged physician for a cold that that's right I mean they and their stress the annual review strong immunization programs strong battles against all public health problems. Virtually eliminated to venereal disease which is still very much a problem here in the United States.

Meeting the problems is just as some minuses and other rickets and other common public health issues they have done really a superb job in that area and the second element of course is the fact that they recognise a healthcare as a as a right and not a privilege and the monetary aspect doesn't prohibit people from getting the minimum amount of health. Now I would say even in spite of our visits to many clinics and Barefoot Doctors provincial hospitals community hospitals and seeing an excellent hospital in in in Peking that it's uneven. There are some places that you get to first rate medicine and others that they don't and the real challenge is how they're going to move into the modernisation of Medicine mixing the western medicine with the traditional medicine and how they're going to upgrade the standard of quality. So I come back with impression that that it's an even at best. But I also come back to the strong impression that the stress on preventive health care and also on

the right of health. You brought to China proposals by top American scientific leaders. How did the Chinese perceive your recommendations for a greater exchange of information on cancer research earthquake prediction new energy sources and cetera. Well. We haven't had a direct response on the particular proposals that have been developed by the Academy of Sciences in which I was able to present but there have been a series of similar types of exchanges for example in the cancer area which which were well received and which were mutually beneficial I talked to Dr Wu who was the chairman of the whole cancer program about this type of possibility and they are they're fascinated they're interested they they have three major different types of cancer. One of the esophagus in the in the eastern part of the China of the liver and in the

south of the nose and throat. What accounts for the differences. Well we have similar kinds of disparity in the United States. The interesting point is the cancer in the nose and throat also exist in pigs and the and therefore the environmental spillover is very profound if you move those individuals away from this particular geographical area. They can free themselves from this cancer. So it's just my strong belief that we have to in the battle on cancer in trying to meet it. You know here in the United States we have to deal with the you know the biological research with all the implications that have. But we probably do not do is not much in epidemiology as we should. And there's lessons that can be learned from places around the world that can can help us at least maybe not cure it but either prevent it or treat it. You know when meeting a health problem

it may be you can't find the solution to it but if you can find out how to treat it or prevent it that still is a major breakthrough. You sensed a willingness by the Chinese to share in the process of research internationally. I do and I would expect that to be a continuation of exchange only in the last two weeks they've announced were some two hundred Chinese-American who are teachers would be returning to China to teach and in Chinese schools and universities. That was an interesting proposal. Here in America you've been outspoken on behalf of the elderly. China is traditionally a culture that venerates its ancestors. How are older people they're treated today. Well there's a there's still very much a part of the nuclear family the older people live with the family they take care of the children the parents usually both parents are employed working. And the grandparents are the ones that do the house cleaning a good share of the

cooking in the watching after the younger children and they're still very much a part of the nuclear family and that in that in that society and you wished to attend church in Caen ton during your journey and discover that there is no church functioning in that significant metropolis of China. What can you report of religious freedom in that nation today. Well we're talking about a China which is basically a close society we shouldn't forget that it's it's unorganized it's regimented it's disciplined it's a committed society towards modernization and it's a and it's it's. In the I had the opportunity to go to to mass in Peking but not in Canton and so Europeans are able to go to church as

well and pay the king but it's difficult to find a Catholic mass in outside of that and that's basically for the convenience of Europeans and it's maintained. But anyway yeah Buddhism practice I'd say it rare that is rarely practiced they there is the talk that within families quietly within families as you know religious practices that are carried on that furtively or just quietly just quietly and it was difficult to get much of an assessment of that but from some people that I've known who have gone there before and spent time that is practice but there's no question it's as in many other communist countries it's extremely difficult if not impossible to do to practice religion freely. On your trip you met with Johnny food whose parents now live here in Massachusetts he's

tried unsuccessfully to join his family in the United States now for five years. Did your visit help to bring them together. Well I had received a letter from Johnny Fu five years ago from the midst of who was his father five years ago and then just a few days before I left to travel to Shanghai when I arrived in Shanghai I indicated to my host that I wanted to see Johnny Fu his wife and son. And it appeared that it would be complicated for a while but the last morning I did get a chance to visit with him in a very moving meeting. And I brought my own son Patrick was a young boy he's 10 years old and as a very close relationship with me and when Patrick had found that this man had been separated for his father for 25 years he could really understand in human terms of the how important really human rights really are.

This Johnny food was had tuberculosis he's had heart illness. His father has had two very serious heart problems and they want they want to be reunified and I. I brought this up with the local authorities and and with the high government leaders in PE King and now the liaison office there with BET with Ambassador Woodcock are going to follow up I know I visited Mr foods parents just as soon as I got back to Massachusetts. The first thing that I did and they were grateful and were interested in how he was doing and how their grandson was. It was only a very small boy when they left but I'm unable to give any assurance other than the assurance of my continued work in this in this case and in the other cases we've got three families from Massachusetts and 18 22 cases that are our humanitarian cases which I'm hopeful be able to see some

movement on. There seem to be any progress toward making cultural events available to the common Chinese citizen today. There's been a broadening of the both movies and in Chinese plays musical events and Chinese opera tickly since the purging of the Gang of Four. When I was there we went to a Chinese opera and musical provincial musical kind of fast. How was that. Well the Chinese both of dance were events that have been prohibited under the Gang of Four they've got and some were very in a Chinese movie which is just one based upon a sort of old folklore of 2000 years the the acting is really quite good and the presentation is really quite effective There's

humor to it as there's tragedy to it. There's the Chinese you know laughing at places where Americans would laugh but a lot of the slapstick they they're struck by the tragedy of it. You disquieted young love being separated there. They booed and hissed the hilland villain. I mean most of the human reactions are pretty common in both societies. Great interest in the theatre. Absolutely packed houses both on the evenings that we went and no one was in Canton and no one was in charge. But I think this is an area where you see the results of a close society. If you go back and visit the imperial city center and visit some of the works of art of old china and see the brilliance and the creativity of those of those workmen and and and women and now realize that the number of

new plays really in in in China are really been a handful of in the last five or six eight years. You realize that the loss of creativity in the stifling of individual liberty and the loss to a nation and that's that's something that you know can't be measured in metric tons or in the foreign exchange but is something which is a very genuine loss. You talk of a closed society and yet you've just returned from the most populous nation on earth their economic system of socialism has been in practice now for nearly three decades. Are there any praises you can make of the Chinese system. Any lessons that we can learn from it. Well I think I think you're right in putting the question we come from into an entirely different concepts and systems. We have great stress in terms of individual individual rights the

respect by a central system for individual liberties and the protection of those individual liberties. And and that has I mean it has a genesis in terms of the Western whole Western political thought. There they come from that vantage point that the most important unit is not the individual but the state. And the the group and therefore what the sacrifice is is made for the group not for the individual or for the members of the family. And so these are completely I think different approaches. I mean there are areas of common concern. They make an May Day an impressive advance in terms of providing the basic sustenance of life. You know children are fed and they're well closed and they're halfway

decently housed and you don't get the kind of critical shortages and the health. Health care is in terms of the primary care and out into the rural areas as it is available. You know it's difficult to determine or detect the exact kind of quality of it but you know what you have to do is contrast their system for that type of population in other parts of the world rather than the United States.