Public Television Hearings; John O. Pastore on the Public Broadcasting Act

African state the federal share of grandchildren not exceed 75 percent. Title 2 authorizes the establishment of a nonprofit corporation to develop it to help develop public radio and television broadcasts. This nonprofit corporation will be known as the Corporation for Public Television. The board of directors will consist of 15 members appointed by the president with the approval of the Senate. The corporation will have a variety of duties prescribed by the legislation based on the assumption that it is in the public interest to encourage the growth and development of noncommercial educational radio and television broadcasting. Among other duties the corporation shall submit an annual report on its activities to the president for transmittal to the Congress before December the 30th. Each of its activities Title 3 of the legislation would authorize. $500000

for a comprehensive study on the whole range of instructional television broadcasting including its relationship to educational television. The secretary of Health Education and Welfare could conduct and study directly or eco contract for this study. It is worth noting at this time that noncommercial educational TV has been chronically under fine and understaffed and on the program since today 15 years ago when the FCC reserved two hundred forty two channels for that purpose. A number which has grown to 600 and 32 reserved channels as of today when the legislation leading to the enactment of the educational television facility Act was first introduced more than 10 years ago there were about 31 commercial operating TV stations on the air today. There are a hundred and thirty on the air. Forty six under construction and 25 more

represented by requests for grants or assistance to construct the educational television facilities act of an act of nineteen sixty two has has proven its work. It was a simple and a modest beginning its expansion and extension are necessary. The six hundred and thirty two reserved channels must be activated 11 60 is designed to assist in that endeavor. However the time has now come to move dramatically in the direction of not only more educational television facilities but of higher quality educational TV programs and services. The proposal to establish a public corporation to achieve this goal is both daring and imaginative. If this legislation is enacted I predict in time it will lead not only to a remarkable uplifting of non commercial television programming but will have a salutary impact on the

programme of commercial broadcasts. I believe that commercial educational program programming is not only supplementary but that it can and will become competitive in an appealing way with TV service. This competition will benefit both types of service in the arena of competition of ideas and format. Some elements of commercial CDs format and showmanship may find their places in educational programs and concepts of public programming will be adaptable to commercial television. And it's a dead endeavor to entertain inform and stimulate it's large numbers of viewers. This is a good time as any to put to rest an observation heard over and over to the effect that upon the enactment of this legislation and the growth of noncommercial the commercial TV services the commercial broadcaster will feel relieved of his

responsibility to present Public Affairs and Public Service programmes. It will not. And should not happen. Each broadcaster receives a valuable franchise from the FCC conditioned on the fact that he will operate in the public interest. And we're not ready to bring that to an end. This includes public affairs and public service programs as well as entertainment economic scape. That responsibility. Because of the use of federal funds by the public corporation created by the act we are considering today. It is natural for one to raise a question about government or the parents of the program. Therefore the words of President Johnson in his recent message on most reassuring and are worth repeating. He said not on commercial television and radio in America even those supported by federal funds must be absolutely free from any federal government interference over program.

And of course. And I heartily endorse that position and that all. I know that all of my colleagues on the committee do as well. Now Dr. James Killian who headed the Carnegie Commission on Educational Television came to the same conclusion when referring to the findings and recommendations of his group. When he said. That commission categorically affirmed that the Corporation for Public Television must be private. And non governmental that it must be insulated to the greatest possible degree from the threat of political control. I intend to see that a full record is developed on this point and every possible safeguards written into the legislation necessary to assure complete freedom from any federal government interference or the program. After recommending nine millions for fiscal 68 as initial funding for the public corporation the president stated next year after careful review I will make further proposals for the

corporation's long term financing and approach. Needless to say that this committee want to waive those future financing proposals. However I am hopeful and want to temp during these hearings to hear the pros and the cons of any specific financing plan. You will recall that last August. This subcommittee held preliminary hearings on the Ford Foundation proposals that call for the creation of a nonprofit corporation to operate a domestic or communication satellite system for the express purpose of serving the radio and TV needs of educational TV and commercial broadcasts. The Ford Foundation plan was only one of a number that had been filed with the Federal Communications Commission. During that hearing a number of questions were raised such as whether the creation of such a nonprofit operates organizations will be an encroachment upon our concept of free enterprise as envisioned in the Communications Act of

1934. What impact will this have on our common carrier structure. Is this proposal the most effective device available to bring about the full development of educational television. It is the most meaningful way is it the most meaningful way to finance educational television. The Congress of the United States in 1962 an act of the communications satellite act which led to the creation of the communications satellite corporation better known as cancer. That in fact what impact would such a proposal have on the future of cancer. How can cancer meet the challenge of the CT foundation proposal. Since that time numerous documents explanations and recommendations have been filed with the FCC. The latest on April the 3rd. These filings in the Commission's inquiry have included among their suggestions steps ranging from immediate pilot or test demonstrations to a wait

and hold up action until Congress completes hearings on this subject. In this regard the president in your February 28 message stated the formulation of long range policies concerning the future of satellite communication requires the most detailed and comprehensive study by the executive branch and by current and I stated last August I did not intend to impinge on the discretion and responsibility of the FCC but I am hopeful that the commission will proceed expeditiously in making its findings and recommendations. So this committee can have the benefit of its expert advice. In addition. I asked Mr. James O'Connell director of telecommunications management who has a basic responsibility for basic communications in the executive department to examine the testimony and record and record and to be prepared to submit its views to this committee. The opportunity before Congress and the challenge of this issue are of

paramount importance for the future growth of this nation. It is an opportunity and a challenge that may be forever lost if we turn our backs against the proposals outlined in this legislation. There are many who have different ideas on how this public corporation should function will be financed but it is my hope that we may be able to resolve some of these differences before the hearings are completed so that legislation may be enacted by the Congress of the United States during this session. Before I call the first witness I offer for the record a number of statements and that is received by this committee. And I want to thank you again. The orange That was Senator John Hoeven storie chairman of the Commerce Subcommittee on communication much the first witness will be Congressman Rod Perper of Florida when he was a late comer attending submitting a request to appear before the committee and has come out with first wetly and thank Now to a mystery that they have a kind of

story. I compliment the chairman on his very comprehensive statement which makes an excellent foundation for our hearing and I have nothing to add. Thank you Jim. That was another enormous company New Hampshire a member of the Commerce Committee who was sitting in on the proceedings here. Now I think that what nationality was Congressman for offshoring this legislation to mandate a complete comprehensive and penetrating statement that did I believe to be in the media and as major of significance to the people of this country. He's qualified to take the leadership in this great opportunity that is offered to the outcome. I think all of us would like to say a kind word. And one of resignation and gratitude for a lady who is a member of the Federal Communications Commission as Abraham and referred to it. Long

and valiant and gallant fight not always an easy one. Who made possible the reservation as a television channel. Told by many competing commercial interests who wanted to make commercial freedom some other Remember part and finally successfully making this channel profitable for educational TV. And told McCammon I want to welcome this are going to fit to appear here in support of an 11 16 and 8 char pick state for fab a companion without any date and how to represent it. I command the ABL chairman of the full committee for his leadership in this card and their deduction of their Scilab unfixed. As a former teacher and one who's always been badly edited in education that all of us have the growing contributions of communications to the field of learning the jet speed about technological revolution especially in the area of communications

has Arad faster than our affections can handle. Many of our nation's school children are living in an electronic environment only to enter a classroom which might be operating on the part of the pack. The conflict between the dynamic world of technological advances and the founder world of traditional approaches to learning is that state for both the student and the school. Why do you need it is an immediate on the part of educators to change and focus their reflection on the exciting future particularly educational television and radio. The medium of television is so new and yet has already been criticized for not living up to its potential. Quite recently an entirely new jargon has appeared in the world of television public television to contrast it with educational television so that the public will not regard the media. Instructional television as a tank for Educational Television The single out the advantage of television for classroom view. Satellite television and its immediate

application for international communication and quality television to distinguish it from the mass programming which focuses on that of its own. But the greatest plea for excellence in Educational Television came from President Johnson in any message that found it funny that we should insist that the public interest people in the public airwaves for a multitude of things that happened said nineteen hundred and many of them that resulted in our technology today television and radio interaction at such an early stage that is often clouded in front of a TV or playing radio when he has children to listen to radio and watch television. But the majority of the programmes are for them to keep them quiet rather than at the end learning when anything they propose that the Corporation for Public elevation is recommended by the president be established to provide support and help local state and improve their profession.

Strongly endorsed the president's recommendations and I'm proud to say that I was one of the first on the House members so far they did not need to do television recommendations and hope that the next Congress and intend to press for hearings on this on the other side of the Capitol I commend this committee for taking the initiative in the table here. And although the way radio has been amended from the title of the veil and by the way I'm sure that our ABL chairman over there Mr. staggers will shortly I follow your leadership have hearings on that. Chairman all of the way radio is needed from the title of the bell the media my radio was not forgotten and the language of the day demonstrated that educational radio can make an important contribution in developing the potentiality of man because of its accessibility and fordable nature a radio

can reach out to all Americans everywhere and can reach from all the advances made in instant communication regionally jacked through television and radio critical the role that educational radio with parents this father had in tapping the rewards of education about caffeine than any other American TV service. End quote. And stating my interest in educational radio I hope that I've conveyed not a downgrading of educational TV but an uplifting of educational radio to emphasize the importance that my own state of Florida places an educational radio. The chairman made an interesting statement there on our television communication facilities. Public educational facilities to emphasize that my own state of Florida places an educational radio that have an operating educational radio stations in Florida. The border region is now considering a plan to establish educational radio

station trying to get college campuses connected statewide educational Radio Networks The state has already asked the Federal Communications Commission several noncommercial channels and each other trying to fix it is involved. If they have a large variety of training and training cultural enrichment in many other uses and then the substance of what the project's recommendations are they've examined it. Read our as well as many of my colleagues no doubt in both how they have written and then mail in opposition to this legislation and especially regarding the public television corporation. Most of the correspondents that caused our bills a Hitler type propaganda minister and quote and other words they can't buy the package of thank a bill called the people of this country have lost the last vestige of freedom

and caught their charm and it could not be farther from the truth. These people sure have good intentions have not had an opportunity to read there because of these statements and accusations I feel it necessary that we should give some detail some of the procedures which relate to the federal government to dissipate that program. The proposed cooperation for public elevation it quite specifically prohibited from any takeover encode a program controlled on the nation's education state and able candidate made that clear. To the Congress state that called noncommercial television and radio in America even not supported by. And I think the absolutely free from any interference all the program called Again I state my day the chairman if the proposal television I made this chart this specific page 14 steps should be that the corporation quote carry out its purposes and

functions and engage in activities and ways that were most effectively assure the maximum freedom of the noncommercial educational TV radio broadcast systems and local stations where our control our program content around that activity quote cooperation and product have been so many political activists and no political test can be used in selection of its staff I for example. The corporation is insulated in other ways from political interference. Its board members are chosen by the president or confined by the Senate to vote of course. Elected by the people. Furthermore the corporation is forbidden from being the originator an operator of any broadcasting had staff and may not on operate any TV radio or broadcast station system or network or other our interconnection our program production facility end quote page 16 Section 3 and predicate. Most are never going to have the means to prevent any takeaway

is that each local TV station have a complete locally controlled. Stations are licensed to university school system then educational organization themselves responsible to local legislatures and citizens for that charter and the Federal Communications Commission for bid federal program censorship. Then if our friends with a Communications Act Section 3 trying to fix San Francisco and land that dream of the great medium of education should have been real that hope can become a reality. The kind of reality. That can use communication to erase ignorance. Educational Television and Radio as a great method to offer its audience the method of learning and hope. Just like that. This is one of the most meaningful. Opportunities ever offered to the American people because the use of the technological marvels and the

education of their children and the education of the people Jeff. I was a Harvard law school before I ever lived in a city where there was an art museum where levels again or. How well it was an opportunity to see and hear good music. Today there is no excuse for the most to remotely resident American not to have an opportunity to enjoy it that their cultural influences and activities and performance and all the worth of the satellite as well as the television station. Children in a country school should be able to take the finest art galleries of the world and they're not all that matters as well as they come to know. Common things that they study and their books about the medium of communication the school of course one teacher enable teachers can teach thousands of perhaps even millions for that matter. And now they have heard on the radio the other day.

Where while the program is being a broad band they can call in information through these marvelous communication centers you can almost instantaneous communication between one teacher a student seeing and observing the television on the screen and over the sound the road and plans that the country has another way bringing to the public library a great library. Every person don't have the same incentive to go to a public library and open a good book and derive pleasure from it. But it turned on a television set in his living room and see the content here. The content of the things that he could see and hear in the grade of the country and other words the culture of learning. Magnificent type image the cultural path

to a living room to a boy classroom. The medium of communication now the thing about competition with a commercial system instead of carting the commercial systems to discontinue their public program you may be sure. They're not going to want everybody to be looking in on their TV educational TV. Then I don't expect their listening audience and they're looking already to be attracted all about their commercial. They've got to have something to excite the interest of people to make them turn their channel or turn the spiral to their channel. And it'll stimulate and I don't want it of course. Take away the private money they've got to make a profit or they can operate we want to emulate that it just takes social security and private insurance a lot of people thought when Social Security came is going to destroy the private insurance system of the family. Back in the days when I had the honor to be a member of this great body and we were talking about giving

federal assistance to heart and cancer research. A lot of car gauges but misguided people. Why then you're destroying the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association. You're destroying a private instead of. The federal government is going to aid the stimulating Craddick Contrave So this will stimulate. But in our family not only a large contribution to the public interest but only improve quality in having the most appropriate government that can and you and your e-book NATO engage in Great well thank you for your friends. Thank you very much for a very very splendid statement that I think you set the grammar. Of this hearing. Are there any questions of. Your own mental models. Thank you very much for this. That was the testimony of U.S. Representative Claude Pepper of Florida the lead off witness at these hearings on the Honorable John W. Gardner secretary of Health

Education and Welfare will testify next. Also scheduled to appear today the chairman of the FCC rows and each time the governor of the Virgin Islands run up by Iran and the chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts Roger Stephens. The committee hearing room is overflowing into the heart of this moniker not very many chairs in here. Secretary Gardner is making its way to the witness stand we switch now to Major damage in Europe. It's been brought up on him any way you wish. Delegate any question and then you would think we could get a quicker a better answer and we'll leave it up to you to guide the. Route and secretary for legislation. Errol how commissioner of education and Dean and undersecretary of the department would you like me to for a CMA for testimony. This is John members of the committee I appear here today in support of a bill

which has a very special and historic meaning for you. This committee includes more than half of the members of the Committee of the 87 Congress whose vision conceived and sponsored the first Educational Television Act of 1962. Thirty two million dollars made available by that legislation has activated 93 noncommercial television stations and 47 states the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico. It is more than double the number of the TV stations existing in 1962 and some 50 million more Americans have come into the orbit of educational television stations as a result of that title one of the 11 60 builds on the achievements of the past five years that requests 10 million five hundred thousand dollars for fiscal 68 and extends the program through 1962. A new feature of authorization of grants to educational radio station. The limit in the present act of one million dollars for any

one state is replaced by a state limit of 12 and a half percent of appropriated grants in a given fiscal year that are grants not in excess of 75 percent of costs are offered. Before describing the provisions of s 11 60 it might be useful to define what is commonly and loosely known as educational television. A certain amount of commercial television is of course education. The documentaries news programmes dramas and symphonies seen on commercial television have informed and educated millions of viewers. Nothing in this provision should encourage commercial broadcasters to reduce those activities. They cannot nor do I believe they will seek to diminish their responsibility for programmes of enlightenment to the contrary the pro proposed act might well lead to an enlargement of commercial television commitment to instruct and enlighten. I hold with Mr Pepper on that point. The phrase Educational Television is as it is generally used covers all of noncommercial television and

noncommercial television has two quite distinct parts each with its own clear cut audience and goals. One of these segments of noncommercial television directs its broadcast for the home the other to the classroom. The Carnegie Commission has recently given the name of public television to noncommercial television broadcasts for the general public in the home. It's fraud purposes to expose its audiences to the best in our cultural tradition and acquaint them with the significance of contemporary conditions that shape society. The other form of noncommercial television broadcasts chiefly to classrooms is designed for a formal teaching and is generally referred to as instructional television or ITV. It's most frequent application has been in elementary and secondary school systems. Public Television and instructional television are as different from each other as they are from commercial television. These differences need to be acknowledged if each is to achieve its values from the minimum goal of

public television is to make a usable signal available to all of our citizens. This is fast being attained chiefly through the action your committee has taken. But as President Johnson has said we have only begun to grasp the great promises of this medium. Despite enormous advances in technology. The only one change this ingredient that makes for excellence in all media is talented people. Each medium theatre box art or motion pictures or broadcasting achieve greatness to that group to the degree that it engages the interest of gifted people. But such people will not turn to public television as a medium. If they can't be assured of the production support needed to turn an idea into a visually exciting programme. Each technological advances raise the cost of the presentation of ideas. Just as the motion picture is more costly than the books television is more expensive than radio. Apart from operating costs the

expenses of programme production are half that these costs must be met if public television is to achieve its full potential. There are well-intentioned people who believe that non commercial television need not produce programmes at the same level of professional competence and visual impact as commercial television. They believe that the intrinsic merit of the subject matter will outweigh any amateurism in production. But a whole generation of viewers has grown accustomed to professionalism and presentation. To hold audiences public television must approach the production standards established by commercial television. The time has come to make available to public television the manpower and funds to do that. The time has come to give economic support to those creative people who are willing to explore the potentials of this medium. The time has come to match technological sophistication with programme excellence. But do we want excellence. It's fashionable in some circles to maintain that a

democracy is sterile ground in which equality cannot flourish. That the people's preferences are invariably for they and Ferrier and the common place. I refuse to believe that. Last year the 5000 museums in this country were close to 300 million visitors. Four times as many people visited New York City Metropolitan Museum of Art as went to the Louvre in Paris. Today there are more than one thousand four hundred symphony orchestras in this country. More than half the total in the entire world. This compares with less than 100 symphony orchestras in one thousand twenty one radio signal the mass communications boom. Increasingly the American people are participating in the arts. There are for example an estimated 40000 theatrical groups in our country today. Almost 14 million youngsters play musical instruments. Not all of them make guitars or bongo drums. There is an appetite for the fine arts confined to the large urban centers in

Cherokee Iowa a town of 8000 there is a $250000 community center with a Museum of Fine Arts and well attended classes in painting and sculpture. This suggests that there are many people interested in programs of a kind that are not being offered on commercial television. And if better programs are made available they will stimulate an even greater interest. Radio in the 1930s with its live broadcasts of the New York Philharmonic and the Toscanini conducted NBC concerts was a powerful stimulant for the interest in classical music recordings sales of classical records and grown at a faster rate than the phenomenal rise of all record sales. Are some 20 times larger today than in 1930. Great music became popular as it grew for many years. President Johnson has recommended the establishment and funding of a nonprofit corporation for public television. Its mandate is to encourage and facilitate the expansion and development of

noncommercial broadcasting and of programming diversity to achieve these objectives the corporation would assess by Grant or contract in developing programmes for national regional or local transmission over noncommercial stations. A corporation is also charged with facilitating interconnection among stations. This interconnection would make possible simultaneous transmission of an event requiring it or could be used to store programmes for broadcast at the stations convenience. The corporation would have funds to help local stations create innovative programs that could establish a library of broadcast material. In short. It would serve the public interest by taking any and all appropriate steps to make a genuine choice of programs widely available. This proposal maintains the independence of local stations which would continue to determine for themselves what they should or should not broadcast to ensure this autonomy the corporation is prohibited from

owning owning any station or network. Any interconnection system or program production facility. The corporation would not and should not in my opinion be an operating organization that would provide support to operations carried out by others. The cooperation would be managed by a board of directors appointed by the president with the approval of the Senate. Integrity of the board is of course central to the success of the venture. It would consist of talented and eminent people from appropriate Theo's and from across the nation. They will after the first year appoint their own chairman. The officers and employees of the corporation will be selected by the board. The bill has a strong conflict of interest provisions governing the officers of the corporation and forbids political activity or any political test and personal actions. A corporation would be required to submit an annual report to the president or transmitted to Congress and authorization of nine million dollars as requested for fiscal year 1968

with such sums as may be necessary for the ensuing year. Support for President Johnson's Johnson's proposals are crucial to the full realization of this country's educational ambitions. Through its sponsorship of the first education of television facilities act. This committee has brought noncommercial television to the threshold of maturity. Now we must move from facilities construction to programme development in terms of our commitment to education investment required in this field to turn potential into reality. A small but critical. Now I'd like to turn briefly to Title 3 of the proposed legislation the request for a research study of the role and capabilities of instructional television in its simplest terms this is an effort to perform for classroom television the same searching inquiry performed by the Carnegie Corp. Carnegie Commission for public television. It's an attempt to appraise the possibilities and limitations of instructional television including

technology program content costs conditions of classroom use and so on. Additionally the study will examine the potentialities of other forms of audio visual instruction of other learning media which are still comparable to television that they can be but they cannot be dealt with separately for example classroom films. The findings of the study will be transmitted to the Congress by the president and will furnish the basis for such legislation as they may be needed. Additionally I am persuaded it will serve our school systems admirably by giving them a comprehensive description of the educational capacity of television and other technology. The proposal of the proposals of this bill are wholly consistent with the position this committee took when it sponsored the first educational television facilities Act of 1965 to find science which always possesses 20 20 vision reveals the clarity of your perception than the data circumstances for approval of this bill are no less time.

Without your approval of this proposal the facilities you have made possible by your initial action will be an complete monument to a great hope. I urge your favorable consideration of a bill I believe it may well prove to be one of the most significant steps taken by the Congress this year. Thank you very much Mr. Chairman we'll be happy to answer questions. And you just heard the testimony of Secretary of Health Education and Welfare are not I saying asking our history our story at this moment when is when everything is rationed. Construction of an educational television station has been a long sought objective for the people of my own sake. The state's advisory committee on educational television with established over 10 years ago to study the needs of the area as related to each TV. In recent grants under the first PTV bill public law 87 447 is enabling us in Rhode Island

to begin construction of the first educational television station. Channel 36 in Prague. When the station goes on the air. It will provide classroom instruction at all levels adult education for elastic credit in service training for teachers in cultural and public service programming to enrich the lives of more than 3 million for thirty eight thousand nine hundred ten people including five hundred and seventy five thousand nine hundred fifty five students in one thousand six hundred fifty three institutions of learning. The bell on which you testified this morning is infinitely broader in scope than the original legislation epitomizes the role. There are no communication media can play in the educational future. If we are rising for firefighting enough to move forward positively and immediately to take full advantage of this great potential. Now this bill that we are considering today Mr. Secretary has developed in three titles. The first title has to do with the extension

an expansion of the solar power educational television broadcasting facilities act. Now you pointed out the fact that only because of this legislation have we been able to develop a certain number of television stations on the air that is educational television stations. I am prepared to tell us. Either yourself or to your assistant that if there's a grant or this appropriation of ten and a half million dollars made under. Title Rock. What will be the maximum amount. Of educational television stations that we can and they are. Counting the ones already in accounting hours already and if this thing costs and you have a figure. We've made complete projections and we can acquire whatever

can be stated in testimony I would hope go on the record at your convenience. Thank you Senator. There still is a significant backlog of need in the facility structure for when you speak a little louder so that everyone in the Lair still is a senator a shift a significant backlog of need in the facilities construction program the first year requested 10 and a half million represents a very small expansion over the existing level of funding activity under the 1962 act to establish the national Eevee coverage with signals available of good quality that all people. Will require about 400 stations totally in the system. About two hundred twenty one stations are presently in being or under construction or in the planning stages. So it will need. An additional hundred fifty to one hundred seventy five. The.

Capital investment cost to complete a national TV system. Will be about two hundred thirty million dollars. This in visit is limited color capabilities in the larger facilities in visage is a series of smaller stations which would not be production originators but would be relay points to fill in open spaces. So that a total capital cost of two hundred thirty million would be required and that would be from all sources both public and private. Federal state and local so that ten point five million for the first years authorization of this bill. Continues the effort that has been going on over the past four years slightly expanded and look forward to the completion. Over the next five to eight years. Of a complete national coverage program

for all the people. Well would we be placed in the position if this bill were enacted. Of getting the pipe before the horse. Would we have enough television stations for an operation that could observe all this programming that we're speaking about. Under Title 2. Oh yes sure I think there's no question there wouldn't be a gap there would all be no gap whatever I think that matter I think that the present hunger of approach the program why I think this is clearly so any TV for example is presently providing about five hours of programming for a week. And this. Is used up as quickly as they can provided in the station's cry for more. This medium of television as any broadcaster will tell you uses materials at an incredibly rapid rate. You can't satisfy the hunger for new innovative imaginative effective programs. Under any system that I can contemplate now if you do the best you can with what you have. It

just uses material as fast as it can be produced. Now you said that we have what it was a two hundred twenty one stations either in existence or under construction is that correct. Now we answer my previous question if we appropriate the 10 and a half million dollars. How many stations do we envision over and above that to I didn't when he was. Using that kind of a half million get the average grant has been. In the neighborhood of a hundred thousand to quarter of a million for a new station construction. This would get you going with another 20 to 25 stations. Now would any of this money be used to pay for paying personnel the percentage of the running time of arms or no services for construction. This is hardware money yes it and any one state can be allocated up to twelve and a half percent of the full funding of any single year's appropriation appropriation. How are the new characteristic added to the former Act of 1996.

2 is the fact that this now applies to radio as well. That's one of the number of changes that allowed what I would like to have you do a normal rate the changes that have been suggested in Title 1 in the present as against the existing law. Yes sir and I have fish. Frankly I think the members of the committee know what they are but we have to develop the record here. Yes it seems ok to act provided a total of thirty two million dollars already five year period within a program of thirty two million elimination of not more than one million dollars was available to any single state. This bill provides for a first year authorization of point five million. With such sums as may be necessary for the following four years. It eliminates the over a million dollar ceiling applied to the 32 million in the old act and substitute instead a

12 and 1 1/2 percent limitation to any state for any given appropriation year. Secondly it revises the matching requirements under the existing act existing act to have two separate matching requirements. One was up to 50 percent of the cost of the equipment. The second provided a credit for investments previously made for measuring stations which had already purchased the equipment before the Act came into effect. To take it credit and get up to 75 percent using an equipment credit that's eliminates the egrep and the credit provision. This is now we think Service purpose. It raises the basic matching requirement from 50 percent to 75 percent. This was done because the equipment cost for the new station is only a part of the total cost.

Our experience in administering the program was that a 50 percent equipment Grant often represented as little as 20 percent of the total station cost leaving any percent of the total station that was to be raised locally. I give an example of that. For example a station which is starting from scratch and needed a new building needed to acquire land needed to furnish offices library typewriters in the other appurtenances of operating stations. Found that those investments were not matchable investments that were magical where the transmitter the cameras the towers. So that even though they got 50 percent of this equipment cost they had to pay the entire cost of the building of the land of the architectural services and so forth which meant that meant. Cost of the entire enterprise was only being matched 20 to 25 percent. I said fine. With a 75 percent equipment matching. Still for a brand new

station. The total matching will probably not exceed 50 percent of the actual process of the entire enterprise but this will be we think an incentive to get stations on the air where they just were unable to come up with as much as 80 percent of the whole cost locally. Another provision in the 62 act. Was a limitation of 15 percent of any of the available grant money to be used for interconnection purposes 11:16 eliminates this provision and leaves the question of allocation of resources for interconnection. Up to the demands of the applicant and the judgment of the administrative agency. I think these are the fundamental changes that were made in the act and in Taiwan. What my colleagues like to inquire and I had a while before we know it to

the world is doing the operation. The nonprofit corporation that I run through the I was using the operation of the proposed corporation and I use the system. I noticed that the limitation of one million dollars each state has been eliminated it was already explained. You now have a 12 and a half imitation. If I think is the correct age state to use up all of this 10 and a half million dollars or that would be correct or it if you only had 10 or 8 applications and the Jap occasion represented as much as Rob and I have percent mathematically it is possible as a practical matter however I cannot envisage this happening. First of all because the criteria in the present Act under which we would award grants

are not repealed we still must provide equitable geographical distribution. We still might. An expanded viewing audiences or improvement of signal as other criteria. We believe that. Because the number of states already have achieved the one million dollar ceiling they are being unduly analyzed the price they've done a good job there's a great deal more to do in many of these states. This is particularly true in the southern states where there's been a very active and very fine development of state wide easy sir in other words if I'm going to cut them a half percent as against the one million dollar ceiling is more of an inducement for the Eagles. Though they're eager to get on with it I would think you are in a better position of the new funding. Yes sir. For people downstream those questions of the chain are becoming the story which really comes

down under secretary of HP W.. We have another question from Senator John. QUESTION Mr. Secretary you gentleman as I ran there and the purposes of the cooperation. I can see that the bill is leaned over backwards and very properly and the president has leaned over backwards and very properly in making it fundamental that will be no control or censorship or designation of the program. I use the term leaned over backwards with intentionally. One of the. One of the statements that has been repeatedly made by witnesses in the past and by members of this committee is that there is some gain to

be made by educational television being to a certain extent and in the certain sense become a competitor with the commercial television system. It can be a competitor. It can. Serve to improve. By competition to improve. The material over commercial system. Unless it. Acts in certain in the certain sense as a competitor. We are focusing our attention a good deal on you and very well. On providing. Providing for the people who have. Good taste. Hunger for good programs who like the opera like we

are. And who appreciate them. I'm leading up to a question forgive me for laying the foundation so low. I happen to have a rather. Mediocre I want that sent back to New Hampshire but I'm afraid so. I went to a good neither And but I did find myself because of. Health listening. For periods of many evenings. I don't know whether you gentlemen of had time to listen to them that think it's sickening it's far below the standard of my rather

mediocre mind many of the programs that I get commercially the business of that Man and Captain nice people that fly over there and many of the entertainment. I think. Thinking they may slapstick stuff and like F Troop and the rest. These things may amuse jörgen to some extent but I think the job and the gate something better than that. And then I turned to I turned to the educational television. I find some very fine material on. My I also find many. Profound of your fantasies and I find that I find much time devoted to some music of mine had. I find evidence however of

some very good. Very good plays very good dramatic performances historical like this before like the Profiles in Courage and other similar that are intensely interesting and I think will be interesting to the public. Now. If educational television is going to provide the function. Not only of education. Not only of getting educational and uplifting and developing programs but also to have the added function. Of lifting up. The type of commercial. Operation doesn't exercise censorship. And we don't want to exercise censorship and I'm not afraid is going to exercise censorship in the

politics. Any other that is in your opinion must have function. In in seeing to it that education television which partially at least will be supported by public. Functions in the way that I have in mind so that it does. Show there called the perils of the spin and the fact. The general run of people adults who had the advantage of the background classical background what would be your comment on that. Very point. There are several diversity programs for a diversity of tastes and one of the major objection to commercial television today is that it's something of a

straitjacket and perhaps necessarily in the nature of the medium. In the case of publishing you can walk into a bookstore and have a choice of ten thousand books. But there are only three prime evening hours and 70 channels and you're limited. And. You're listening to the Kosen answer a question from Senator Cotton the boxer you heard a moment ago signaled the start of today's session of the United States Senate. You're listening to Live coverage of Senate hearings on the proposed educational television Act 1967 produced by WMUR film American University Radio in Washington D.C. and the national educational radio network. We prize 30 seconds forced ocean identification. This is the eastern educational radio network. Ever wondered what the critics have to say to each other or what might result in a drama critic and a

music critic discussed ballet. You'll probably get the answers to these questions when you listen to critics circle every Thursday in April at 12:00 noon repeated Saturdays at 7 over WGBH FM eighty nine point seven mega cycles Boston. Thank you to the United States Senate Office Building in Washington. Mr. Compton is now becoming another question. We switched to senators by. Seems to me I have occasionally seeing examples of where an ally even contributed to programs and has indicated they have made contribution without the usual fanfare of commercials but. In the very out of the very the very policy of sponsorship. In in in the private in the in the in the private sector. Television. Has contributed largely to popularizing and to its

business of sinking to. The popular programs. You won't have that in the Senate in any sense in. An educational television and because you don't have it. Because you don't have an education television may be kept completely isolated from being obliged to having the motive or the incentive of being popular and that is good. Perhaps 90 percent. Is 10 percent bad because I find myself seeing dramedies in foreign language and the English translation coming on instantly underneath it and my own. Perceptive girl is not such that I can follow this thing consistently and that sort of thing. You may be able to do it but I think that the

ad out of education and out good entertainment and getting a taste for good entertainment is almost defeated and I see those night after night. Our business moves to this point. Do you feel. That in some way we have this New Orleans over backwards. Probably leaned over backwards to preserve absolute independence and co-operation absolute known as an absolute lack of any censorship. Don't you think it would be more effective when we build these facilities and have these fines and wouldn't it be justifiable for the drug ration. To have some policy in supervision and in carrying even different forms. Of of the entertaiment jug come over

educational television. You are as dangerous. Actually as it works out. The stations. Which receive which would receive this program money. Almost invariably have a constituency. They exist in a community. Some of them are parts of universities. They are subject to continuing appraisal of the quality of their programs so that they are not there not without a critical constituency now in some cities and some areas. The dominance of commercial television is so great and the audience for educational television so slight that that constituency really isn't very effective. But as we increase the coverage of the TV It seems to me perfectly clear that they're going to be a great many people who will express themselves as to the quality and the diversity and the acceptability

of the programmes and the only thing we did not want to insulate the stations or the programmers from public reaction or the healthy feedback of criticism and. We want to insulate them from the control of someone who had the money bags and we didn't want the corporation to be a controlling device that was not out there in their suborning but not affected in any degree. By the acceptability in popularity of their of their product. Where is the incentive for them to hit the happy medium. And to make their programs really entertaining at least a certain percentage of them as well as education. Is

there any real incentive. I think the incentive is to build into the American approach to these things I think if you look at the history of museums and see the degree to which museums in the past 15 years have moved toward doing a job of educating the schoolchildren and the community reaching out to people who are not scholars and not specialists are not specially grounded in one or another scholarly field or art field. You find that that in general American institutions do want to serve. I want to bring in a broader reach of people even institutions devoted to cultural pursuits. I think they will be responsive to the community attitude toward their program. I'm interested in just one more question. I'm interested in

your very apt statement and very well worded if you want to isolate them from the money back. And I verily verily commend that on the other hand. Had consented. A certain percentage. Of the entertainment are of the firemen. It is educational television could be sponsored provided is sponsored only as I have noticed some of these programs against the illegal where it simply says this program. Is near when they are able to present this program because of the generosity of the guys in the congregation the American man allies are something else and no other commercial id.. When you supplement the public monies and we do it at the same time and

somewhat too. If you provide if you restrict it to a certain percentage and if you authorize the corporation to restrict such programs was sent to send each of the form time. With them. Would you be completely opposed to that. Consider it as a dangerous and bring way. Senator I haven't thought that through. Station directors differ very strongly as you know on this. Some believe that nationalism and then if you're going to advertise a grant even though it's philanthropic it said that I mean I don't think it kind of played out this bill at all if you want to make it I suppose you'd have to make it anonymously I mean published in the paper but you couldn't you couldn't broadcast that on the showing of the book. When I jam and I mean this is Rudy whatsoever. My question however is whether that was tribute to

Ruben Cantu sense. Of the program and if it was going to back and exactly which I ventured glimpse there was a far cry from this in the looting the day after day night after night you know you have bad breath bad. I mean how do you hide crying from the ask. I'm simply in hiring I'm not certain that I am because I'm still be inquiring whether the farms couldn't be supplemented and an incentive for making programs that Frank did it to a limited incentive and that limited commercialism was a grounds without right for most of them. Whether it would be worthy of consideration would become him against it. I have always felt that it was a regrettable development in

educational television I've had Station directors give me very eloquent arguments as to why it's no worse than an industrial concern to do that and give a million dollars to the college. Help a chemistry laboratory which they do all of the time but it seems to me that in this kind of legislation we would be diminishing the need for or program directors to seek that kind of support and I think in general to the public good you would be opposed to any of it. I'd prefer not to say yes and bear in mind that the vibe that I was presenting was this that it was no less true if it was allowed to go larger than a very small percentage. That's one reason one reason we're getting satisfaction

over the over the day is that the private network. Is that the incentive behind the whole thing is that they get sponsored programs and a completely popular car for the general run of people and I agree with you that they're underestimating I think underestimating the tastes of people. But on the other hand a smaller degree of having that incentive to make their program a practice to me was worth considering that I appreciate your observation or the work. On this question of local elections of course it will be within the province of the corporation itself that upon the program and the truth. I mean how could you ever get a grant and they should tell the corporation what you're going to put on. It will never pass upon

them. I can would come of the corporation with their proposal and the operation would have to determine whether or not they would undertake it. I don't know or we would anticipate the proposals to be unturned. I'm not be critical but I think the record ought to be made straight on this. I go along with your argument that much of this fear that she'll first occasion could develop into pure our. Intellectual snobbishness. Which of course is to be avoided too. That's to be avoided because then we would get away from this concept that you just developed about the museum becoming more and more attractive to many many people. There's got to be such a thing here is to begin to build up and educate the minds of people as well so that they can better appreciate the sophistication. But coming back to this question of whether it's national or local the fact is that under this bill the local station. Can decide whether or not to take a program that

has already been programmed. Is that correct. But whether or not a grant will be made to that station. Any proposal that it makes that will have to be passed upon by the corporation itself. My correct in there. Don't I get ahead and say yes or no because they're not they're not getting the record. I think there is no area of policy here I think of be wrong for the corporation to expect. To elaborate proposal in terms of detail that you put just ahead of time because it meant the heart of some of this is experimentation. Now I come to the last question and then of course it all depends on the caliber of the individuals that constitute the corporation was not correct. Right now coming on that score. Why did you choose a number of 15. Will you give the rationality of that. Why do we say 15. I know it's up to me and yeah I know it's got to be either six because you have staggered terms here and

staggered terms of sheer duration. And you've either got to have sex you've got to have nine you got to have 12 you've got to have 15 years i tell me why I chose 15. Well the normal the normal reasons applied here you you want a group of small enough to discuss matters you want a group large enough to get the kind of geographical diversity and diversity in terms of background that such a body needs and it's somewhere between 12 and 15 hours just for the purpose of the developing the record. What would be your objection to 12. Even with you with the human number right you write that many faces the author of it. I don't think we have any objections Anders 12 or even 13 although there may be some superstitions about that number. Well you couldn't have been bigger than you could not agree but there is there's nothing magical about the number of the board I think the board must be large enough to have

within it a great diversity about how would you consider it seemed a little too unruly. I would not myself consider now 15 means of present but I hope we get people that will be present that week I don't begin to downgrade the beginning. Well I mean is that the best answer that we can get. I don't know if anyone has a precise answer to that question but the question might arise on the Florida debate why 50. And I'd like to be able to coach you fellows are going to get built sooner I certainly think that you wouldn't want a free man board of course and you certainly wouldn't want to 40 man board. So I guess you start with a junior on the right one of 15 man boy. That's what I want to know if you started training wanting under 40 of the other and work your way down you end up somewhere around 15.

Well the reason why. Why did you got the Carnegie and commission report with reference to the. Carnegie board problem and board appointed by the president and I think they did appoint themselves are appointed by the board. I don't know the history of that. Well give me a little rhyme and I was wondering why you didn't go along with that suggestion. Well it seemed it seemed a little complicated senator and we felt that the most straightforward honest simple way to establish a board was to have me she feel like that executive official appoint them and have the chief elected members of the Senate confirm this made good sense to us. It was a responsible simple effective way to do it. I think we also feel perhaps a little more keenly than the Carnegie Commission the need to get the kinds of varied representation that will satisfy the public interest. We have a life form going on I think we'll have a report on the floor.

Let me take the. I walk faster than I can get a little smaller and hear those at their own fence and talk louder than everybody else. We'll be back in a minute. That was SENATOR PASTORE a who has announced that a quorum call is now under way on the floor of the United States Senate in order that the votes of these senators who are on this committee may be recorded as being present on the floor of the Senate. They have called a 10 minute recess in this hearing to allow the senators time to mark the one block from the office building here to the United States Capitol on the stand at this moment are representatives of the Department of Health Education and Welfare. Secretary of h e w John Gardner and three top assistants are undergoing questioning at the moment from members of the Senate Commerce Subcommittee on communications. We did not have time at the

beginning of this broadcast to identify the members of this subcommittee. You know of course by now that the chairman is Senator John pastoring of Rhode Island. Other members are Mike and Ronnie of Oklahoma Vance Hartke of Indiana who is here today. Frank Moss of Utah who is here today. Philip a part of Michigan Senator Russell Long of Louisiana all of those gentlemen are Democrats Republicans serving on the subcommittee are senators Hughes Scott of Pennsylvania James B. Pearson of Kansas and Senator Robert Griffin of Michigan. Now under the rules of Senate committee hearings this is a subcommittee we point out. Any member of the full Senate Commerce Committee the entire committee can appear here today and ask questions you have seen this in very good example in the person of Senator Norris consonance Republican of New Hampshire Senator Cotton has fired many questions at the witnesses thus far. He is not a member of the subcommittee although he is the

ranking Republican member of the full Senate Commerce Committee. The committee hearing room is jammed with people. There are less than 100 seats here for spectators due to the unusually large number of newsmen covering this event. Many visitors ARS standing around the walls some spilling out into the hallway. There are representatives of every major news outlet in the United States. They are both private and commercial. The proceedings are being carried live only by the educational radio outlets to which you're now listening. However National Educational Television is recording it for rebroadcast. In addition camera crews from CBS ABC and NBC are set up on the wall of this building. They will be and all are filming the important testimony of which will of course be featured on newscasts a large table is in the middle of the room here. It is filled with the written reporters those journalists for various newspapers throughout

the country. We might point out that there are still three witnesses to be heard today during this hearing. You of course are hearing from the officials of the executive branch of the government now but still scheduled to appear will be the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission Rosella by the governor of the Virgin Islands the honorable Ralph by Juan's and the chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts Roger L. Stevens. This will complete the witness list for today and presumably they will all get a chance to speak. There will be a break for lunch about 12:00 or 12:30 if the senator isn't here to the preliminary time schedule. If in fact they do this then the hearing would recess for an hour or two one hour and a half. It would resume about 1:00 or 1:30 this afternoon and continue until all the witnesses scheduled for today had a chance to speak. There are growing indications that

this will be the case that there will be a lunch break that the hearings will resume the safter noon. Of course the procedural instructions are certainly up to the chairman of the committee. He can do as he pleases. And this is most often the case many blue ribboned witnesses will be here again tomorrow perhaps some of the more spectacular individuals from the private sector and of the interest groups concerned with educational broadcasting Tomorrow representatives of the Carnegie Commission on Educational Television will be here and they include chairman Dr. James R. Killian misses Oviedo cops a former treasurer of the United States Edwin H Land president of the Polaroid corporation then will be representatives of the Ford Foundation. That group as you may recall has. Has suggested a rather startling innovation in using satellite communications for educational television and radio broadcasting. Ford Foundation officials to appear before the

committee tomorrow include Foundation President George Bundy former CBS president and now Ford Foundation advisor Fred Friendly. Then the president of the Eastern educational network will appear he is John Kerry Meyer. These will be the witnesses for Wednesday Thursday and Friday will be divided between the National Educational Television and national educational radio witnesses and friends of the educational broadcasting medium. These Senate hearings are scheduled to run four days this week. They will run today through Friday. There will then be a one week recess after which they are things will resume on Tuesday April the 25th. And that second series of hearings will also run for a period of four days and during those we of course will again provide live radio coverage. The extraordinary coverage of a congressional committee proceeding this committee proceeding has been demanded by the very extraordinary nature of the

legislation which is being considered legislation which could literally change the course of educational broadcasting in the United States especially educational radio broadcasting. You've heard the many witnesses to this moment mentioning the various aspects of this bill the ways the bill could help educational broadcasters. Congressman Claude Pepper a Democrat of Florida the lead off witness at about 10:15 this morning said that a long recognized problems in the field of communication. He said that education was not keeping up with advances in communication. And he flatly stated that to adopt this bill would provide the funds which would let education utilize the communication advances namely radio and television Eastside in potential educational TV and radio offers in the field of education. The various individual aspects of the projects which could have tremendous impact according to the congressman who in my ad was once a

senator himself. Congressman pepper in further testimony has specifically cited the potential of educational radio. To date he's been one of the few witnesses to strongly state where his feelings on the radio part of the bill. He said he didn't want to downgrade educational television but he did want to uplift educational radio. He cited the benefits which educational radio is providing the public in his home state of Florida. The congressman and Congressman papper said he has received much mail opposed to the bill especially that portion which would create a public corporation on educational television. He said he feels the public is not informed on this bill or they would not oppose it. Pepper outlined the provisions of the bill as did the chairman of the subcommittee Senator John opacity. And then next appearing and still on the witness stand is the secretary of Health Education and Welfare gardener and three of his top assistants. In a prepared statement four members

of the Senate subcommittee secretary Gardner related his remarks Pacific plates of the television aspect of broadcasting. Although of course radio is mentioned. Several times during the question and answer area in his statement the secretary said the proposals of the bill the bill which is now under consideration is wholly consistent with the position which the Commerce Committee took when it first sponsored the educational television Act of 1962. This bill would extend the educational television act of 60 to as well as broaden its provisions. Secretary Gardner said the circumstances for approval of the bill are no less timely today than they were in 1962 when the federal government first got into the act of financing educational television. He urged favorable consideration of the bill by the senators. The secretary said he believed that it may well be one of the most significant bills to be before the Congress this year. We're still

waiting for senators to return from a recess. The Senate is in session at this moment. The bells the buzzers which you've been hearing twice through this broadcast are an alert system which tells the senators what's going on inside the chamber when they're not there at the moment a quorum call is going on in the chamber and members of this subcommittee were forced to leave for 10 minutes to go over to the chamber and cast their vote. We will be back with more details on what's happening at the moment following station identification. You're listening to Live coverage of the Senate hearings on the proposed educational television Act of 1967 produced by W am you FM American University Radio in Washington D.C. and national educational radio. We pause 30 seconds for station identification. This is the eastern educational radio network.

A decade ago Britain France Israel and Egypt were embroiled in a week long war. Now an extraordinary series of British radio documentaries revealed for the first time in many respects a complex web of events known as a serious crisis exclusive interviews with leading figures including President Nasser incorporated in these programs Thursday evenings at 7:30 repeated Saturdays at 5:00 on WGBH FM eighty nine point seven August cycles in Boston and already are back here live at the United States Senate Office Building hearings are in recess for 10 minutes so that senators may appear on the floor of the U.S. Senate in answer to a quorum call under consideration in these eight days of hearings will be Senate bill number 11 60. This hearing is specifically concerned with that bill called the Public Television act of nineteen sixty seven members of the subcommittee are now

returning from the Senate floor. Chairman past story has just taken his seat along with the Commerce Subcommittee is chief counsel Nick example who sits as an ex officio member it is not a vote but rather advises members of the Committee on procedural matters. More members are now returning to this room which is a very large meeting room necessitated by the huge interest in this bill. It's standing room only here today and police are now taking positions outside the door to turn away people. It's just impossible the hearings are resuming we turn to Senator past story at the rostrum. Now it is clear Mr. Secretary under this law that the corporation itself will not operate any broadcasting facilities that record now under them they are empowered to receive donations that correct and contract for

programs. When they receive a fee for any of these programs that they distribute to educational broadcasting stations. And settled under the elves that are there is no prohibition against the corporation receiving I think this is a policy question which the board of directors of the corporation have to deal with very early. But why should it be in the legislation. It may indeed be something you would want probably considered for the legislation but I would offer that you gentlemen would give some thought to this subject and give it your at least your own views on the subject. I mean after all there are probably earning taxpayers money by saying that this is a noncommercial institution. Well I'm going to begin the selling easier and commercialism much. And

the next question is could you contract out for a program initiated program and then even fell into a commercial station. No sir that would not be permissible. Where is that in the law. Let me think that. Senator we can develop a position on this if you wish and submit it. I would like to add that the visionary that I mean taken everything into consideration. That they can only contract with or make grants to for production and distribute to noncommercial educational broadcast stations say 15 lines 16 is the operative provision which does not permit them to make payments to any stations other than a noncommercial broadcast base. So they could not sell a programme service to a commercial station.

They could indeed contract with a commercial production center for the making of a program. But they could not distribute that program either by sea or by giving it to a commercial broadcasting the right fellow by giving. Yes that is correct. Now and let me ask you a question. Is there any conflict. Between this public. Corporation and the Ford Foundation opposed. Senator there need not be so this can be considered quite separately from the Ford Foundation because or if the fart rock foundation proposal were accepted and generated a substantial amount of fun they could be used. This could be one of the instrumentalities for distributing those funds. But there's

like a get rich often comment on this. I think what the secretary said Senator is really accurate. The furring foundation proposal is a financing proposal and deals basically with the medium itself what the Corporation for Public Television is concerned with is the message which goes over that medium. The Ford proposal would provide some revenue not nearly enough to support the entire structure of public feeling. But it would provide some revenues those revenues co-operatively could be worked out with the financing of the corporation to give general support both publicly and privately to the whole structure of public television. I think no fundamental conflict between the two I think they're quite separable. You could probably have either one without the other or you could have both together without any

conflict at all. But if you add both together what would the Ford Foundation do with its money. It collects and that's what I get in you know the Ford Foundation. Good continue to support program as it now does. Nothing in this Act gives the Corporation for Public television exclusive support for the already hébert noncommercial broadcasting and I would certainly hope by the way Senator that the establishment of this corporation would not dry up. Any other conceivable support for television I think we still need to have an additional support other than just this corporation I think the corporation would be the basic element the support of public knowledge. But of course I see that as a hope but I mean as a reality though I hope that you have two nonprofit corporations in competition with one another. I mean what good would the Ford Foundation proposal be and then to get themselves

into using this money for educational purposes. And how could they use this money for educational purposes unless they initiated programs or contracted out programs which is exactly what public corporation is going to have a group occasion if they carry it right out. Yes very much for the public good I would think in the sense that multiple sources of corridor are make for diversity make for options and as far as the stations are concerned they have choices. Oh my turn. This is a condition that exists in the government and in foundation now will all be developed under the study that is to be made. No sir that while in this you mean the instructional television study. Yes I know that it has to do with another subject another subject entirely. Yes. Well the president in his many years I remember correctly that something

to the effect that he was calling upon your department calling upon that morning upon other private agencies that it can look into this matter of did happen like this. Correct. You know that's what I'm talking about. Now we're going to do that. Is that being done. We will be working with Nancy on that subject. Yes sir. And now the last the title the title has to do with this construction and there's a request for a $500000 authorization that they cared for I think are safe I'd like to say first that very morning with a distinguished company and I think the department of health education welfare has responsibility for the administration many fine innovation and educational programs. We feel that the great progress is being made under your direction you can be proud of that progress and proud that they can in future promise. That's contained in this bill. If it is an act and I certainly

have some questions I want to ask about that when I point out the state of Indiana was one of the earliest to recognize and utilize the great potential of educational television for teaching and cultural enrichment. Our Midwest program on airborne callid a construction sponsored by the Ford Foundation started pretty Universe's world painted as its flying classrooms a den beaming educational courses in 1960 to schools and colleges in six states over an area of more than 200 miles. The National Film started Adil they feel that they are a repository for any key programs as located Indiana University Bloomington Zellers the National Center for school and college delegation a project which we're confident up in tribute to improve quality and distribution of instant destruction Ltd programs. Together these two centers comprise a significant national resource for E.T. The programming of every decision. We received three federal grants for construction of nearly TV stations and A Father's Law a seven for 47 so you can understand that we are have more than just casual interest in this new legislation. And I'm also delighted to say at least that

we recognize radio as being included in and the medium of communications as McLuhan would say this is a new age and certainly radio and television is back in that field. But the whole thrust of this bill goes toward local programming isn't that true. Sir let me ask you a question does the Civil Rights Act apply and I ask Mr. Mr. Cox into this is that what the Civil Rights Act applied to this. Bill I can you understand where I'm going I'm going to Alabama real quick. I don't know our terms in which you mean the question I'd like to ask I doubt it. I believe Senator that Title 6 of the Civil Rights Act would apply in the sense that federal funds are granted through this program would have to be given to grantees not practicing discrimination yet and all federal funds through any program funded by the federal government for operations by the Congress have to have to rule

that particular requirement. So I have my interpretation would be that it would apply whether there is a problem about determination there because the federal funds will be granted to a independent agency which will then make some grants. I'd like to get some legal advice on as to exactly how that granting rights by the independent agency is a properly referee. Well I can see that as representing a problem but I think it goes back to the bigger problem which is the heart of what I was driving at and that is the fact that basically as I understand of legislation it is oriented toward individual unit on individual areas. It's oriented toward a complete lack of identity toward a network system. On the other side of the net correct there is intention here. Building a considerable interconnection among independent educational TV stations but the option remains with the

individual station as to whether it will use that interconnection for network possibilities. But isn't it isn't it doesn't even go further than that doesn't it really orient itself away from the so-called network content. Could there be interchanges that there would not be a so-called network programming of educational programs as we look at today as NBC ABC and CBS. I believe that's correct that there be complete local option of stations local options and even greater than that developing local program. Now how do you make the determination as to what programs are going to be utilized and what section of the country for example. This again repeating your earlier remark almost verbatim will have to be a matter of the local station making its decision as to what programs it carries out what times I think the major purpose of the of the new corporation air is to increase the options that that local station has and to increase the quality of all the options that are right now how would it a prime

relation to the systems which are now operating in other words the outer system we have a limited system now in operation NEC correct. We have a limited education system in the sense that there's limited coverage and there are areas nighttime and so on what you're saying is that what you're really going to do is just explode the limited coverage to a greater area. We seek 100 percent coverage. Yes and I would also increase the possibilities of interconnection and network like operations. Yes. All right but who made it you're going to be anybody who's going to make a determination of how that feeds and they're going to be a centralized authority here is going to go on and and say this week at 9 o'clock we can present a program on the question of Social Security coverage for example house or. How they're going to feed in another words how do they how do the local programs how do they find out about all of this. They will have information about programs which are available and they will use the network to make the programs available to them to the local station at convenient times by

recording them on tape. The network will be available for distributing through the tape right. And encouraging local choice about that to be oh I know what authority will a corporation have a say for example that this program the high top rated program which is in demand built what does it have authority to propagandize. None whatsoever. Just for education to educate the station is a nicer word than propaganda volleys. The people who run these stations are pretty well-informed people they know what the resort's desire and they will very quickly become familiar with the possibilities available through the corporation I don't think will have to be any active. Is your authority for that cooperation. Is educate the Lhari instruct the local stations as to the quality of the programme and the type of programme. We have authority to establish and maintain a library and

archives of noncommercial educational television and radio programs and related materials and develop public awareness of and disseminate information about noncommercial education that prays to. What does that mean. Including the publication of a journal. Yeah well so what does that mean other words here. Where is that on page 15 page betting everything on a bottom of the page line here on exam What does that phrase mean there and subsection D and develop public awareness and disseminate information about what does that mean you want to comment on that. Well what this means Senator is that the corporation has a public information function publication of a journal would be one of the functions of it have it might support scholarly papers and research in the area of educational broadcasting. It would I assume publish a program guide which would be available to

all stations. The program guide might include both real time distribution and storage distribution. It could say for example that on Saturday evening at 9 o'clock the network will carry programme x. You may wish to carry this live off the network at 9 o'clock on Saturday. You may wish to think this program and carry it at some other time. Or you may choose to put your own program on at 9 o'clock and reject both options. I think this kind of information has to come from the corporation so that everybody knows what's available when it shows up on the network so that they can make decisions as to whether they want to use it in real time whether they want to store it or whether they want to ignore it. I'm drawing attention to the fact that there is criticism which I'm sure that you're well aware of the nature of this type of instrumentality being you're using federal funds and one of those is contained in a bill third issue

broadcasting magazine and their editorial on the substance of which is that nobody however should be misled by the appearances of innocent non-coding if adopted in the form of that the mission. Lyndon Johnson public television bill wouldn't establish the mechanism for federal television system responded to the prevailing center of power. Now what I'm asking you is do they really explain how this type of operation could really be avoided I would imagine you would not want to do is see that type of instrumentality but could it be utilized for such a search for such a purpose. Senator I think the most important thing as a corporation could not. As commercial networks do have option required time when the local station must carry the program supplied by the central source. As you know networks do block out certain very time required stations to carry their programs. This cooperation could not do that. No station could be placed under any requirement to broadcast any materials produced

by a grant or by direct directly or indirectly. By funds supplied through the corporation. So when your senator if I may say so I think the assertion in the editorial is ridiculous and I think anyone who read the bail. And examined the whole record can't possibly imagine that right now. In other words it almost assumes that the president of the United States in every instance is a rascal for some reason or other becoming fashionable. One man that's elected by all the people of this country for some reason can be trusted even by nominating 15 people who are going to be confirmed by the Senate of the United States competent. And I would say that in addition we have our very good and long tradition of inserting the kinds of protections that will make it exceedingly difficult to exercise control. And they're in the bill.

On the other side of that coin you have friend friend Fred Friendly's that alliteration down to the fact that the statement that the failure to have a comprehensive education network system. Can Not that that will that necessarily. Prevent us from having the type of educational benefits which which all of us are trying to obtain is that the criticism on the other side of the spectrum. Well if this is a matter which I think is kept fairly flexible in the present in the present plan the corporation is authorized to facilitate and support interconnection and it's quite possible so that authority to arrive at voluntary networks which may be very effective right now would there be any prohibition against any hype.

Combination of managers for example to develop within the framework of their own individual party structures are networks of their own and that's how they stay real the conduct that they would carry certain programs nationwide. You follow what I'm telling you that yes I do. They're not regarded a corporation acting. There certainly has been not even the slightest hint that any such thing may develop all of the station's treasure their independence and have shown no inclination to do this. But would it be illegal. No sir voluntary association with other worry I believe they have voluntary associations of these groups which are receiving money from the federal government which could restrict the areas on programming and date certain programs which would have to be covered for example by their stations and along that they were voluntary organizations among individual states and they would be permissible.

Well I don't know how they could exercise any control over. Individual members I don't know where the incentive or of the leverage would be to to coerce. A fellow member. Well could it be in the system most of them innocent on their part and not assume that there have. Any. Ulterior motives which are honest on purpose. Just assuming I own a very high plateau of let's say but in order to make sure that we can have a program. Which has the character and type of educational benefit which we're thinking it's going to be necessary bar at least 20 states and I picked those out and I don't want to know why I didn't think that Dean that I think 20 20 stations will agree that we will carry these programs in a unit in order to develop the type of growth engine they can look like I mean to me and I could be dark right. Yeah and fact it may be necessary in order to get the kind of

coverage to take care of some kinds of national events. Now in substance has any of this occurred with the limited number of stations which are on the air at the present time. Just a small amount of the scene you want to comment on. Senator there are regional networks which have been established to deal with materials which are of particular concern we read the outstanding one I think it's probably Eastern Educational Network. Which stretches down from the wave and all the way down I think close to Washington. If not I can make the Washington regional network performs a genuine service to the northeastern part of the United States and carrying a lot of very useful very valuable and a lot of real time. I think we're all very very or if it's desirable to encourage regional networks why is it not desirable then to

encourage national networks to those items which are have national concern for the city. In other words in other words what really you're ultimately going to have if you had the finances available you are ultimately going to have under some system or another a national network of educational television which will make programming there. There now has any study been made by your department as to the net effect of the programming that's been going on so far do you have an analysis of the type of programming and the net result of what the benefits have been and whether it has been up to the caliber that people should have a presence. There are good many studies available of existing television I think I'd have to summarize it by saying that that we have barely tapped the potential of this medium in terms of programs.

The Imam you know is there any responsible report which has been made to Congress as to the type of programming and whether or not it has had improved character. I don't think there's been any report to contradict you know that are required by any law. No sir not a word at the present time we're going to move on into a new field without having a valuation of the present system is that we have very extensive evaluations in the educational literature there's a great deal of attention to existing programs and they're not very good. In regard to the programming at the under the veil you said that the corporation could not program and NCLR distribute or give to commercial stations. Could the reverse be true if commercial stations couldn't give programmes to the have our say our program for Educational Television.

I would think so. Now that word is sent to them I'm terms they mean well that's the end of this. Bill would not prohibit that. Let me ask this question I don't see how you're going to develop a nationwide system and at the same time not have any type of control over the corporation has to play I think educational television in certain areas. This escapes me in other words. It does about voluntary initiatives from individual areas coming in making their applications and I think that you got an answer to the chairman that the reason for changing the equation in the first part of the bill was the

purpose that you are going to really give attention to those who develop initiative first which could not like that to develop in eight states for example. But what is what is to prevent us from developing a say in 30 states to the exclusion of 20 states and I are talking about of the Title 1 the facilities. Yes well basically the whole operation it that deals with the facilities that it deals with the whole problem of how you're going to use of utilizing the section 2 in relation to title line or title relate to that. I think we

are there. And there been any attempts at Radio at applications for radio education radio radio not for men and I understand that the media have you had any application to be the one to go into the field or this and it like to feel no absence long established. But it's never had much money. One other problem there and this is with the Ford Foundation suggestion. How do you convey in the station how the satellite Saudi is an invasion a concept well make contracts with educational television networks are certain channels to be assigned. Do you have any recommendations in this deal. I have no recommendations with or respect for the Comsat or forward

proposals. I mean in regard to how are you going to use the communication satellite itself that words are you. Educational Television Corp. going to concern itself with how that media is going to be used. The corporation as such I would not think would be involved in the decisions that are pending now eventually it would certainly presumably want to make use of satellite communication. But it could under several alternative ways of doing it do it in the satellite. And I'm sure they

sound like I think less coverage of Senate hearings on the proposed educational television manic 1967 produced by W. a MUFON American University rodeo in Washington D.C. and national educational reading we pay ours for station identification and the Eastern educational radio network television that this season Boston's distinguished series of Sunday evening lectures for the whole forum is being broadcast live from Jordan Hola. If you can't attend in person plan to join us Sunday at 8:00 when author Ayn Rand will be the speaker is WGBH Af-Am eighty nine point seven mega cycles Boston. On a corporate basis and I want to have educated television on the forward base of the elder

statesmen or office building blocks that are members of the present to help the intercalation and welfare are now being questioned no no answers are there you are see Clark in memory and rich area of HP in our government on the consent of both flexibility and ingenuity in finding ways to do things that need to be done and I think this is just another example of that I don't think that I don't think that most government operations require the kind of special instrumentality that this early in the day for her and her race which as I said very far away voice Valley fixation. Unique in the sense that. It's unique in this respect you're dealing with the most powerful media in the world

and which we have very little understanding at the moment as to what the effect of the media has upon our young people are made up for the reason we can't understand our young people and it's much difficult in that problem or the other if you do have that it's still the old story that we're in seemed to take past bellicose statement is that you can tell a man he's a cripple and he understands that if you tell a man ready to fight you know this is one of the I don't know how whether we have even begun to touch that other problem of knowing many 774 were telling their people they're stupid because they're they're buying television and they provide television which we're saying is not the point. Senator let me go back to a point I made earlier that that the existing system with a limited number of hours a limited number of channels inevitably limits options and makes it very difficult to serve smaller but very important audiences in

this case we're dealing with an audience of people who want this kind of cultural and educational material maybe fairly substantial but will never get the figures that would put it on prime Network Time article here but Jack Laurie says Kathleen I get enough of that you know. It's a favorable statement fine if you know anybody. An article in April in 1967 New York Times leading I think a lot of and let's make a comment which I think is appropriate here at this type of influence and public television must be accorded to the adventurous and first impression of imperial believes that a choppa make a point as well that a Tory on that overriding shortcoming of today TV is the absence of sustained vertical theatre rather than only the inadequacy of public affairs programming shaking up

TV news and public affairs as an admirable goal but shaking it up in a fable entertainment is even more urgent. Expansion of the mentions of TV news room is important. So what I mean I think this may be at the heart of part of our difficulty and I wish that a very great study you're going to make in Title 3 on instruction maybe in the little section over there and thought on that is. We dropped the word civil rights and then we just laughed it off. I wish someone here would a labyrinth and I address myself now to my distinguished colleague just how would civil rights community. I mean we're definitely not. But how about this. Several things here I wonder. And I think Mr. Harper his finger on it under this title too. There's a very serious question is or not as to whether or not any Granted be native to any institution which was practicing segregation. Senator using the analogy of the federal contracts that are

awarded for construction purposes where that even when the extent of sub contracts that there must be fair employment practices followed by the subcontractor and I assume that kind of thinking would apply in this case grants made by the federal government to the new corporation then subsequently granted to other agencies presumably independent nonprofit TV stations those grants would require that this. Requirement of Title 6. Follow them along the way and that there not be discrimination practiced in the spending of those funds. I mean that now wait a minute wait a minute don't let's get this out of context. We talk too fast and we slough off a lot of things that when you look at the record raises a lot of trouble. Now the local station what if it contacts the corporation and suggested maybe it would like to have a certain program. Correct. Now you mean to tell me that your department of the corporation is on a fine go there that station to

find out how many colored people are sweeping the flaw. How many white people are sweeping the floor in the studio. Really well how far do you go in this. That's what I'd like to clear in this record because now this subject is going to come up. I'd like to know more definitively whether this Title 6 come into this picture. I think we should get you a legal opinion on the Sun in an eye or a legal opinion is. I know Laurie I'm getting the application and that's a matter of experience. I think the application is and is certainly a matter of legal opinion I would say first of all that for the direct and construction of facilities grants from AGW there's no question about that that's right now that is money that is distributed by or depart that has nothing to do with the corporation as a Title One is money that is distributed by. The governmental agency am I correct on that. It's not a money that will be distributed under Title 2 has been distributed by the corporation which is a separate entity. Which receives federal money. Correct and friend when it's federal money it makes a

program. Write a program that will be used by a local station to be shown to the general public. Now tell me where the civil rights get into it. Well unless the corporation allows it to get in there. Those those funds granted by the corporation to the local station senator can presumably include also operating funds. I'm not correct about that Mr cotton and therefore in the grant of operating funds to those stations it seems to me the question of equal employment opportunity can and should be raised so that in the operating funds aspect. I think this question is pertinent. I don't see how it would apply in the distribution of programs it seems to me a very indirect kind of matter. The corporation will make contracts with agencies for the production of programs and it would seem to me that those contracts should carry equal employment opportunity stipulations and that is a decision that's

made by the corporation. I would assume that that obligation would be laid on the corporation in any transfer of federal funds. But if you understand it the element of civil rights might pertain to where an inquest is made for operating funds that would be my non-legal interpretation again I think we should figure that I think we're going to get on the audit that clearly in the record. When you submit it or we will. Now let's come on back I mean this is why in part will they take Title 1 away from title to completely as they are interdependent Isn't that true. Mr. Secretary you have a facility to carry the message that it too is going to help reduce the many marijuana facility and take even title on page 14 of the Act large subsection one a C I guess it is but on line 18. There it is says assess an establishment development one and more system a

noncommercial educational television or radio broadcast stations throughout the United States and in developing those systems on when and when the Civil Rights Act apply. I think insofar as there are grants to agencies which are employing people there would be applications. All right and then when you come on back to the question again now does the Civil Rights Act applied enter in to the next step. That is what the local station has a complete right to systematically. And completely. Disregard all actions in regard to civil rights and for example education matters regarding civil rights. I would add that right now they have to write another word to to segregate out of their programming itself where they have that authority to completely take that item out. I would just let this be a matter which would be determinant in whether or not they could participate in utilization of these programs.

Other programs for example in other words if they would systematically take out the civil rights programs that they use the other programs. I think you have to say here that the right of selection of programs remains in the hands of the local stations. But you have to say at the same time that any nonprofit educational TV facility has a representative board of directors just as a corporation we're talking about that this is a broadly constituted of business leadership usually educational leadership from the community the station serves and that the ultimate reliance error and judgment about balanced programming which is the point you're raising resides in the board of directors of the local station and I believe we have to trust those boards. Now they were just saying that the question of local balance would be a matter of determining killed it by the local educational station which is a corporation would have no authority to make any

decision is that correct. Yes sir.