Sunday Forum; 2; Behind Every Great Woman: Oleta Crain

Good evening and welcome to the Sunday forum. Tonight we're presenting part 2 of our series, "Behind Every Great Woman," a collection of 5 seminars on human development with outstanding women from New England. Our guest is Oleta Crain, Equal Employment Opportunity officer for the Department of Labor in New England, and the Federal Women's Program Coordinator for the region. The host for Behind Every Great Woman is Will Fitzhugh. This is ah, another evening in the series, Behind Every Great Woman. Essentially the program is a number of, of evenings with outstanding women primarily concentrating on their educational experiences and career development, that sort of thing, and I often say that we spend a lot of time worrying about people that go awry in some way, that, that people that we have trouble with in this society and don't know what to do about. And often we sort of take for granted and don't really spend the time to learn about the people who are extraordinary. So that's one of the reasons for this

series is to take some time and ask some questions and try to find out some of those things. My name is Will Fitzhugh. My guest this evening is Oleta Crain. Who is the, as a retired Air Force major; ah, is the Equal Employment Opportunity officer for Region 1, which is New England, for the Department of Labor. And is also a Federal Women's Program Coordinator for Region 1 in New England. One of the things I like to pick up on is -- 'cause it means a lot to me, having been brought up in the Southwest, and I always feel like if people don't really understand what a desert sunset is like, they don't really understand me -- and one of things we talked about at lunch was Oklahoma. I was wondering if that's where you were born. On a farm under a tree. On a farm under a tree. Yeah. What's -- I used to think that Oklahoma was all, well, from the '30s or from the movies or something, get an impression of Oklahoma as being all dust, but that's not the case at all, is it? No, dust and Okies

But it's a, it's a state of some variety, isn't it? Yes. What kind of country where you brought up in? I was born in Seminole County and it was primarily the oil fields. But we had good farmland and Pecans and chickens - Was, what, the farm that you were born on was, what sort of crops were there? Oh, my father raised corn and hays. I used to dash around behind the horses as they would cut the hay. I think they raised wheat, some cotton. They had a large pecan farm, also chickens. And did you - so, how long were you in this environment, or did you grow up to what age? I I don't remem- recall the age, but, ah, I went to Crain School, a school named after my father on the farm taught by my mother. I survived that until the eighth grade when I left and went to

Wewoka, Oklahoma, where I went to, finished eighth grade and went to high school there. But it was high school. [Fitzhugh] So this school, your father worked worked the farm and also organized the school. [Crain] Well it was a school built on the land owned by my father so it was called Crain School. [Fitzhugh] And were, but it was for not just for the people on the farm, but people from all around the- [Crain] The community. [Fitzhugh] And it was called Crain School because he built it, but he didn't - [Crain] I don't know whether he built but because it was on our land. [Fitzhugh] Oh I see. So he wasn't teaching at the same time or. [Crain] My mother taught. [Fitzhugh] That's right your mother taught the school. [Crain] She was a principal. That's- I didn't learn fractions because I got a switching because of that she was pretty strict. [Fitzhugh] It must be difficult to -- sort of full time, you never get out of school sort of at home your at school. [Crain] It's all we heard. School in the morning and at night [Fitzhugh] And like, what kind of help do you get with your homework when the person is the person who assigned it? [Crain] It was very easy. [chuckles]

[Fitzhugh] So that took you up through the seventh grade. [Crain] And then I went Wewoka, Oklahoma that was about it seemed as if it was 100 miles then but I suspect it must have been 15 miles maybe. [Will Fitzhugh] Did you commute or you moved? No I lived there. I had a room and then we got a apartment, I think my senior year my brother and sister joined me at that time, while I finished high school. [Fitzhugh] What size, what sort of a town was this? Now how big was- [Crain] 12000. [Fitzhugh] But it probably seemed like a big town. [Crain] Well it was large to us. For the most part, people went to school and they finished and they went to college. It's all we ?inaudible?. Practically all went to college. [Fitzhugh] Was there, did you show a sort of early inclination in one area or another as what you enjoyed more something more - [Crain] Oh I don't know, Oh I finished I graduated valedictorian of my class and I gave the valedictorian address and I participated in various contests, I used to like to talk and debate. Oh yes. I was always against capital punishment and I had many fights because of

that. [Fitzhugh] Were there, were there particular cases at around the time that that brought public attention to that issue? [Oleta Crain] You know I don't know why but it was always a big issue. I don't really know why. [Fitzhugh] Maybe you just didn't like people getting killed for, [Crain] I did not. [Fitzhugh] Then of course immediately comes to mind about here you are in the Air Force, not that that's the only thing that happened. But you chose the military at some point. [Oleta Crain] Yes I was in the Iliff School of Theology in Denver University. And they kept announcing that they needed women to join the service to help win the war. I had never seen a parade so of course I was not familiar with the military but we felt guilty so we went down and we passed the tests and I went in to play in the band. They needed women to play in the band and I used to play a cornet and the saxophone when I was in college and they recruited me and when I got to Fort Des Moines, Iowa, the first WAC training center, lo and behold I didn't get in

the band because they didn't have a black band and I wasn't allowed to join the white band. So they recruited me under false pretenses. But I was young, so it didn't really make any difference. They tell me then I would become a member of the cadre. But I didn't know what that was so I looked it up in the dictionary. I remember that they said the cadre is the nucleus around which something is built. [Fitzhugh] We haven't decided what we're going to build yet, but you're gonna be it, right? [laughter] [Oleta Crain] So I became a member of the cadre, when I finished basic training I was a third class you know it was organized, just recently organized bringing women in. And when I finished basic training we didn't have any corporals or sergeants so we competed. Sixty of us competed for, I think it must have been about 10 Sergeant positions to go from private to sergeant. And we competed by drilling. We had men who trained us ?calored? who were real tough and that's how I earned my sergeant stripes, I was never a corporal. But it was- [Fitzhugh] What, when was this now, 19- [Crain] '42. [Fitzhugh] '42, so the

Air Force was part of the army at that point. [Crain] We were all a part of the army. We were the WAAC the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps and part of the Army and I was transferred to the Air Force in 1945. [Fitzhugh] Because they really didn't break off into a separate thing until after the war, [Crain] We were the Air Corp then [Fitzhugh] you know Army Air Corps and all that. [Crain] Yes, yes. [Fitzhugh] So so that really, that you say this was the third group of women period that had got into the Air Corps. [Crain] I was the, yes, I was the third class. [Fitzhugh] And what-- I've already, I've skipped over college, I'd like to get back to that-- but as you went through, how long was basic training that you had, do you remember? [Crain] Perhaps everything was 90 days, perhaps a month I don't recall at this stage in the game. [Fitzhugh] And did, and was there at some point during that training in which they said, "no we figured out what the cadre is going to be" and so would you begin to get an idea of what the, uh, options would be? [Crain] I became a sergeant, a, see what were we called? Platoon sergeant. They selected people to be over groups of

girls in the barracks you know-- [Fitzhugh] And wh- now did you have a black platoon? Was it, it was segregated so all your training was segregated? [Crain] Yes. Yes. Yes. [Fitzhugh] And what sort of duties were you being trained to perform? It wasn't playing music or was it? No? [Oleta Crain] No, no they just trained. They uh, we had a quota system with the service. They brought in 10 percent of the women in the service were black, and most of us were college graduates, I know in my class of a hundred and seventy five, a hundred sixty of us were college graduates. [Fitzhugh] Wow. [Crain] And, uh, I think normally when you had a company and we had companies, you had a company of three officers, I had a company of 23 officers because when the black office, when the black women became officers there was no place for them to go, so they put them all in this one company who in turn trained the rest of them to come in. Eventually, they sent a group of them to uh, Fort Devens, Massachusetts. I think that's how they solved some of the problems but we, uh, we had to work hard, we

organize, we called it the Charcoal Burgles and we had the same type of salute, like the black power salute at the time, it was composed of both black and white women who were quite concerned as to what was to be done with the black women. And we had women as far away as the Pentagon who had accepted messages and would tell us what the policy and the plans were. I remember they got ready to set up an all black regiment and they were going to give us some high grades but we didn't like that so we made -- we planned our strategy and when they called us all together, we all lived in what we called "boom town", it's a place where the barracks with the dirt and no grass and they moved all the whites up on, up on the, uh campus, it was like a campus where they had grass and they left us there. So at this meeting when they announced all of the assignments we had our Lieutenant by the name of Lieutenant Southerland who had a cue, when the colonel finished telling us, her cue was to ask him "if that was cut and dry sir?" And he said, "Yes, Lieutenant." And then we had a

Captain W. Roundtree Johnson who got up and took off her captain's bar, she was a captain. She put 'em on the table, and she came in parade dress, and she proceeded to tell the colonel that he had, uh, thrown us back at least a hundred years and she from there for about two hours and they all left, and that broke up the black regiment. We had lawyers, and then they called us down to take the oath of office of the Army of the United States, well they decided to make the women a part of the Army of the United States, we all marched out but forty of the black women decided they wouldn't take the oath. Some of us decided we would, because that's the way it was arranged. And I remember when I walked out on the parade ground with the thousands of women, there was a loud speaker silenced for Crain to come back to come back to, uh, come back to the rear. And I did an about face and back to the rear and then I saluted and there was a black company standing there and they said "Lieutenant we would like for you to march the company on the parade ground." But we had one company that was under the commandership

of a white officer and I said "Well, where is the lieutenant?", I forgot her name, and they said "well she refuses to march on the parade ground under a Black Battalion Commander." And I saluted and said, "I'll be damned if I take this company on the parade ground to take the oath of office of the Army of the United States" and I did an about face. And they said they would court martial me. And I was frightened and I was bad and I cried but I went back and I took the oath. But if you look at the picture you'll see that uh, the tears I think you can still, they're still there. But it was quite a struggle. But, uh, after that they finally decided to integrate us. And so some of us, I know I was the first teacher that they had of the company administration really put them in accounting, because we all had backgrounds and after that I just got used to think, because we had any number of the white girls who were quite upset - a lot of them got shipped to the Mojave Desert because of the stand they took in trying to help us break down the segregation. But after a while, well

we didn't really become integrated until 1949 when they broke up the all-black Air Force. We were in a black Air Force at uh, Columbus, Ohio under general B.O. Davis and we were integrated and I was trying to [inaudible] air force base, it was in the first integrated outfit. [Fitzhugh] Well now, getting back for a second to college what was your-- was it in accounting, that you mentioned accounting was it-- [Crain] No, I majored in um, history and what else did I major in, English I think, and uh, I decided I was going to do my YWCA work that's why I was in the school of theology to get a master's in religious education just for the background. [Fitzhugh] So then when-- [Crain] I taught school 3. I had taken my I had a certificate to teach and I had taught school before I went to graduate school and that's how I got into company administration as an instructor. [Fitzhugh] Oh, I see. [Crain] But as any number of the women came in with backgrounds, you know they were accountants, and there were, any number-- [Fitzhugh] But you mention graduate school, was this was this before you went into the service? [Crain] Yes, I was

in graduate school when I went into the service. At the Theol- School of Theology of Denver University. [Fitzhugh] That's- You've already told me that [Crain] Yes [Fitzhugh] and I didn't, yeah that's right, I see now. So, So what they were-- Once you got through training and got the oath of office and that, um, your first work was as a teacher, was that? [Crain] When they decided to give us jobs, I was, we had what we called company administration. And you taught people how the background in adminis-, all the administrative procedures that you had to know in the service. So I was a teacher. [Fitzhugh] So, also, you get an early start in problems of administration which is, I'm sure something-- [Crain] Then, I became battalion commander of all black troops so eighteen hundred girls and uh, we did the parades, likes to lay out the parade ground. And build- officers of the day, we had to you know stay up all night to watch the buildings you know, and inspect the guard. It's quite frightening to go by yourself at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning

around the basement. We managed. [Fitzhugh] And this would have been, is this Westover did you say? [Crain] This was Fort Des Moines, Iowa, but I was transferred to Westover, I was transferred as an intelligence officer. [Fitzhugh] So at some point you must have, when you first went in, you volunteered [Crain] Yes [Fitzhugh] and, uh, and you must-- was there some tour of duty that that was it was under, or for the duration, was it in those days you went in for the duration or something? [Crain] At the discretion of the President. [Fitzhugh] And s-, but in '45 that was lifted or something, that it was the peace and-- [Crain] Yes, well after war yes, I know of most of the women were discharged in '45 but I was asked to remain and I was the only, uh, commanding officer for blacks in the Air Force. from '45 on up until about uh 1950 I suspect. [Fitzhugh] Well, when you when you first-- what I'm trying to get at is whether you made a decision you know, how the decision came about to stay in and -- [Crain] I hadn't thought about it. [Fitzhugh] It just seemed like a good thing to do?

[Crain] No, each time I decide to get out, they say, "Please stay" and then when they decided to integrate in 1949, when they finally passed the law I was called to the Pentagon and asked if I would stay in for a while to help you know integration move in smoothly. [Fitzhugh] Did you have sort of an open contract or they did they give you two year segments or four year segments, or was it just sort of [Crain] No [Fitzhugh] "Won't you stay?" and you said yes. [Crain] Well normally after the war was over you had a chance to say, they either said "we'll keep you" or you may volunteer to leave. And I was ready to go, I hadn't thought about the service one way or the other. You know it was a war, said it was a war to end all wars, so we thought we were being patriotic so we went in. And I hadn't thought any further than that. And twenty years passed by mighty quick. [Fitzhugh] But also a lot happened in that period of time. [Crain] Yes after I left and came to Westover I then went to ?Thatson Dental school? which was a top school four months down in Camp Lee Virginia. Then, I was sent to Groton,

Connecticut as an experiment to set up a post exchange and I recruited people in Groton and set up a post exchange to see if I could sell twenty one thousand dollars worth of merchandise for four weeks to the uh, the reserve. They gave me a pilot. They gave me an airplane to pick up supplies and I did just that. Then I got transferred to Alaska at Christmas time. [Fitzhugh] When was this now? [Crain] '51. They flew me there and I had to leave my car at Westover because it was so- they needed me immediately. I got to Alaska in January, or right after Christmas and when I got there it never occurred to them that I was a woman, that I was black. [laughter] It was twenty eight below and I remember I got on the plane at Washington, Seattle, Washington and at that time we had priorities on that plane. Mail was number one. [Fitzhugh] This was during Korea, right? [Crain] No. [Fitzhugh] We're in '50, '51, [Crain] '51. Korea started in, yes, yes that's right. [Fitzhugh] in summer of '50, I mean I guess there were the peace

talks lasted such a long time, but it was still must have been wartime. [Crain] That's right and they had priority number one for mail, and then they had the vegetables, and then we were priority three, and there were 32 men and myself and for 9 hours we sat on the C47. You could stretch your legs out and this is the way you sat for 9 hours, and you didn't have a parachute because they tell us that if the plane failed you could last only two minutes, two seconds in the water so that was quite-- it was a long ride-- [Fitzhugh] Save the vegetables first. [laughter] [Crain] The vegetables were very important because the plane was in only once a week, there were 30,000 troops there plus their families, and of course you had 28 degree, 28-below weather and you'd stand in line hoping you can get in to get something green out of the commissary. Sometimes you have to stand in line three days, you know. [Fitzhugh] Sounds like the gold rush. [Crain] Food was pretty bad, bananas were 50 cents a piece at that time. Bread- [Fitzhugh] That was real pennies to you, not like 50 cents now. But uh,

30,000 what was it-- [Crain] Fort Richardson, there were thirty thousand, the army was connected with the Air Force, we had Elmendorf Air Force Base and then you had Fort Richardson, and that's the first place I've ever been where you could say "where are my thousand men" and there they were. But that was quite dangerous for a woman to go out even with to go out with one man and you always went out with at least four. Because there were only 200 women up there, so when the men came back from the chain, those islands you know they had strange looks in their eyes. [laughter] It was kind of bad because they use the chains to send the men out you know as punishment and they were supposed to spend 12 months of duty and some of them we found had been out there 24 months, it was really kind of sad. Then they had a lot of men that they had trained to be gunners and when the war ended they sent them to Alaska and they were folding sheets there in the supply, so there was quite a morale problem. Some of the men had been there 9 to 14 years. Air Force was incidental because they built log cabins, they

became plumbers at 14 dollars an hour, and the Air Force's chicken to eat. [Fitzhugh] It's not that important, but must have been a wartime force, I mean that's a lot of people to have keeping warm and-- [Crain] When we were there you know we didn't know when the last of the Russian was going to hold. [Fitzhugh] Oh right that's right because the Chinese was a threat. [Crain] -- Yes, we expected an attack from Russia at all times and and we, I remember how cold I was there because I was not allowed to wear pants, women had to wear, the military women, there were nine of us, we had to wear skirts and uh, the men of course were housed in long underwear and pants, but for my skirt, the hem of my skirt to the tip of my boots, I nearly froze to death. That was 28 below. And the only time we wore pants was two o'clock, every Saturday morning at 2 o'clock. The planes would come over and we never knew whether they were the Russians or ours, and we went into mock-warfare so then you put on all your battle gear and you went to your battle station that Monday morning, we didn't care if the Russians came or not, we were so tired,

and that's what we went through and then you practiced evacuation, we had one bridge you know. We had to try to evacuate the dependents just in case. I remember asking the general, "why were we there?" He said "Captain you're here to serve the Russians a beer while the men escape". [laughter] But I didn't stay in Alaska except well about nine months then I was transferred to Germany, and then Germany I went to England and I lived in London for four and a half years. [Fitzhugh] Well let me be, this is, um, I skipped over, I skipped over a couple things, one of these was you were teaching and you were in administration and you said I think on your way to Westover you got into intelligence by that time. And then, like what I'm trying to get at is sort of, well there's a thread in the kind of career assignments that you've had, one of the ways of asking that was you said they requested you to come to Alaska because they needed you in, and it was [Crain] Personnel. [Fitzhugh] In personnel. So was there a kind of common thread so far in administrative work sort of..

And so when you went from Alaska to Germany, what was your job in Germany? You were Captain by this time? [Oleta Crain] I was a Captain. Let's see, I was in, I was a Captain until 1960-- Almost, almost forgotten I guess, 1952 I made Major, I was-- [Fitzhugh] so '52 or '62? [Crain] '52. [Fitzhugh] So that must have been about the time you went to Germany or? [Crain] Yes, right up- well I left for Germany, I didn't like Germany when I first got there and I just didn't like what I saw, because you see Germany was occupied and they didn't really like the Yanks as they called us and they could never understand how we could find their houses to bomb but we could never find our way to the bahnhof, you know, the railroad station and they were very unhappy with us. And there were a lot of conditions there I didn't like. [Fitzhugh] This would have been only seven years after [Crain] It was '51, yes. [Fitzhugh] the end of the war. Yes so the first six years or so there and the rebuilding hadn't been completed at all. [Crain] No, it was very devastating. So you could see the hatred in their eyes.

I asked leave to go to London. They really wanted me to take over the first integrated company in Munich. Well, I had been with women for five years, you know. I had been a commanding officer and I thought that was enough you know, I want to be a staff officer. So I turned that down and I pulled up the other, I was really headed, because I was in intelligence, to go to General Norris's staff in France [Fitzhugh] He's a famous guy, isn't he? [Oleta Crain] Yes. Some of the men told me that we would have to live in tents and if I could pull a deal and not go to France they thought it would be to my advantage because that time they were living in mud so I wangled a deal and got to London, and I lived in London from 1951 to 1955. And I became, I was group adjutant and I was a top secret officer for the-- almost forgotten the group there, you know we picked up a top secret deal, I kept that job for quite a while and after I became major then I became a testing officer for England. Within a 60 mile radius I gave all the tests to the troops, those who want to go West Point you know,

and want to get promoted and that sort of thing and I was in personnel, and what else did I do, when I came back to America to Mitchel Air Force Base in New York and I got a coveted job as put in manpower administration. I was put in manpower, where they never put women, there were two places they wouldn't put women: in contracts and in manpower because you had to go and make surveys you know, all over the base and tell the General whether he had too many people, whether didn't have enough and that sort of thing. A general asked me if I would like the job and I said "yes, if I can go to school" so he sent me to school. I always made that a policy if I got a job I requested formal education, because I had the nerve, they always would let me go. So I did go and I got into manpower and my mother had a heart attack in Denver, so I got a compassionate transfer to The Air Reserve Records Center. And we had twelve hundred civilian workers and there were just I think about 60 military so we weren't very popular. I was the first military

assigned in the management shop and they didn't speak to me for twelve days. They thought it was just shocking you know that it should have a military plus a woman. But I think we did some good because we did a lot to try to upgrade the women that we found there that were very low grade and I would wear hard on that but then I wasn't there but for two years before I got transferred. I was on reserve? to go to Norway. But then I got diverted to England and they changed it while I was flying over, they changed the orders in the mid air and sent me back to Germany. [Fitzhugh] So when would this have been now? [Crain] This was in '59, and I stayed there until I retired in '63. [Fitzhugh] And from something you said earlier my hunch was that you liked it better the second time you went. [Crain] Well I was in the job I liked, I was in management and I was in the-- now became a contracting officer. [Fitzhugh] So that's the second place that heard you-- [Crain] And I took my training at ?Bantolls? Germany for contracting and my job then basically, I worked out of the

headquarters for Europe and I flew all over Europe, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Greece, Crete, Holland, France, England doing surveys, Norway and I did these surveys for the general. See whether the contractor should get new contracts and whether the Colonel was using his troops properly or if whether he needed more staff. It's a lonely job but a fascinating job and I got a chance to visit Damascus. You know down in Syria, and Jerusalem, Cairo, Egypt, and pretty much familiar with what they are doing now because I was there. [Fitzhugh] That's something else I wanted to pick up on because it's sort of sort of it's interesting to look at places where there were sort of major changes, I'm not sure this really falls in that category but it seems to be up, up to the time you were in Alaska, you hadn't been out of the country. [Crain] I did not.

[Fitzhugh] So Germany was your first and that wasn't a very-- [Crain] I just stayed there just briefly. [Fitzhugh] Was it, was it a culture shock at all to move to Europe and, how old were you at this time, how old were you at this point? [Crain] Because of women's lib we don't tell our ages anymore. [laughter] We draw the line. I was past 26 and a half, so I was old. Well I wasn't-- I guess when you get into a country where they didn't speak any English, and I remember when I landed in Germany very well, I went downtown and they hadn't seen a black officer, woman, and I was looking at a storefront and you could feel you know that something's wrong and I turned around I was completely surrounded, it frightened me to death and I didn't know, I don't know where I was, I didn't know where I came from, what hotel. It was a frightening experience, no one spoke English. I couldn't speak German. That was really something else. [Fitzhugh] I should think so. [Crain] But I had the same experience, I got to London at New Year's Eve,

and we went down to Piccadilly Circus. I was in uniform again and of course and some of the English soldiers saw me and they were having quite a big deal. So they came and they pulled me away from the nice lady that I was staying with and they put me in a circle and they start singing about the Yanks thought they won the war. You know what they think the limeys were for. And this just went on and the bobbies had to rescue me, it was a frightening, that was a frightening experience. But you know at that time they had a habit of stealing girls at New Year's and sometimes you just didn't quite get back, so it was kind of weird way back in those days. (laughter) [Fitzhugh] Jeez, you should have stayed in Alaska, at least there were four men with you all the time. [Crain] Don't worry, it was all pretty wild. They thought it was swell. [Fitzhugh] I don't know how much fun for you. So then let's see now, you came in in forty two. [Crain] Forty two, yes. [Fitzhugh] So it must have been in '62 that decided to take your 20 and-- [Crain] '63. [Fitzhugh] '63.

[Crain] Yes and I was going to -- I decided to get another undergraduate degree while I was over there, University of Maryland we had -- a lot of the colleges from America had programs there. So I went five nights a week just to prepare myself for civilian life and I got a second undergraduate degree and I got a degree at Heidelberg, Germany, it was very very exciting. And then I applied and was accepted at the School of International Relations at the University of Vienna, that is the Sommerschule at the St. Wolfang in Austria. And I went there in the summer, I had already gone to Cambridge University at the School of International Relations so I really enjoyed that. So I went right from retirement to school then I came back to America. [Fitzhugh] And then I see here we were talking earlier you said that you when you got out of the service you really hadn't you hadn't decided you were going to do something, you were sort of, you wanted to take some time off and-- [Crain] That's right. And so how did you-- where did you-- where were you what is it called, released or-- anyway.. [Crain] I retired in Germany, had a big parade and then I gave

them a big party at the club. They had the band and the -- only time you get a chance to stand to the right of a general, you know as a rule you stand to the rear or to the left, you know you walk behind him in case he drops his handkerchief so you can pick it up [laughter]. But when I retired I stood tall right beside the General. [Fitzhugh] That must be, I suppose no matter how complicated or varied your experiences are, must be a moment of some importance, I mean 20 years of anything, was it was a difficult separation or a--? [Crain] No. Well I think I had-- I remember I had to walk from the building to get into the-- well I was the only one who retired that day. And so they had this big retirement ceremony and my boss who was a Colonel and brought me up to a point and then I had to walk the last seemed to be a hundred miles to get into the position you know over time and that of course was kind of-- and it kind of chokes you up, you know,

your friends are there. But afterwards because I had planned it you know, went straight to school, I didn't have time to think. When I came back to America I just kind of dashed around and then I did volunteer work, I became a counselor at one of the schools and then someone asked me why didn't I come and help and teach because they needed a substitute teacher and I decided well why not. But when I signed up some lady had gone on maternity leave in history and that was my major, so they hired me right off the bat. But I had cultural shock there. When I first went to Turkey they gave us a lecture on the cultural shock, I didn't need it for Turkey. I needed it for the school when I came back to Washington. [Fitzhugh] Why? What was it?-- [Crain] Well, when I went to school and the teacher walked in, you know you were teacher and you were students and so there was a kind of rapport and respect. But when you came in you know you dodged chairs. [Fitzhugh] So, '63 or '64? [Crain] Yes, well you know, I wasn't prepared, I had never thought about a civilian school, see I'd been gone too long. Even in the military you know, you walked in and the teacher walked in, you came to

attention and everything was quiet and I assumed that that was the way it was there and so when I walked into the classroom it wasn't that way at all. [Fitzhugh] Welcome to the mid '60s. [Crain] It was terrible. You know and then I found out they had a track system and I had some classes which tracks 13 and these were the people that didn't know their names really, you know they didn't know the states and I was just really confused, I just didn't understand, I wouldn't get homework and they didn't have their lessons but I didn't realize at that time that some of the students didn't really have a place to study because they were too busy living in a house. I didn't know that until I got to the Department of Labor with the poverty programs. And that they didn't have anything to eat. And I remember asking a young man why was he absent from school, he said he had to loan his brother his shoes, and well I thought I'd heard of everything. I didn't know that. They weren't allowed to wear tennis shoes. They had to wear neckties and white shirts. But kids going to college of course could

wear tennis shoes. But this was a way of bringing them into the mainstream, I guess. So that, I found that very shocking. But after a month or so they decided that I was different and they would come in and they would say "be quiet" because she is different, I was told I should scream at them. But you know I just wasn't accustomed. I was there-- they asked me to stay on the next year and that summer I went to American University to the School of International Relations for the entire summer. I did sign up with them and they were looking for contract specialists in Department of Labor and I was hired as an expert. They hired three of us. They paid us $50 a day. So I resigned teaching, and then eventually I was converted, and I became a civil servant the next year. [Fitzhugh] So you've been with the Department of Labor? [Oleta Crain] Yes, except for three months, so, The YWCA, the National YWCA at Lexington Avenue in New York signed their first contract with the government. And I used to do a lot of Y work. So they

asked if I would take a leave of absence and come and help organize their first program. So I did go to New York, and I stayed there for three months. Yep set up their program, then I came back. And I stayed in Washington until '68 and then I was transferred up here to help them open up this region. We spend up the region here in 1968 in June. I've been here ever since. [Fitzhugh] Well that's a, that's a start. I've gone a little bit longer than my time-- Other people say things that are on your minds. [Female speaker] I just have to say, I'm overwhelmed. I've never heard such a life history in my life. You know, except in biographies and books I've read. But to sit here and meet somebody, it's, it's quite impressive. I certainly, I mean, it sounds to me that ever since you were little you were giving, giving, giving, giving, doing, doing, helping, helping, helping. Did you ever have any time for yourself?

[Crain] Oh I had a lot of time. Because I just spent my time reading. I used to go up the little tree and read, I read books. I didn't learn how to dance, until I was in the 9th grade. I remember when I went to high school the kids thought I was kind of queer. I couldn't dance because I came from the country. But, when I was little, when I lived on a farm, we joined the 4H club. You know, I learned how to can properly. I learned how to sew fairly well, and I won a trip to the state fair, and I won a trip to Tuskegee Institute in Alabama. But my mother was very active. And I guess we got it from her, I don't know. But I always wanted to be someone. I guess that's why I worked so hard and studied. [Female speaker] Who is somebody in your childhood, or your young youth that really influenced you? That made you want to be somebody? Or was it something that you always just wanted to be? [Oleta Crain] I don't know, I always wanted

to give my mother big trip. My mother worked so hard, I always wanted to do something where I can give my mother a trip. And I did finally, I took her to Europe with me. And she went to Egypt, and she went to out to Spain. I guess maybe she kind of inspired me. And then I read quite a bit, and I can't tell you, who might have had an impact on me. I'm just really not sure. So many people. From Louisa Alcott and all of her characters, to the, the whole thing. I guess I live Walden Pond, and the Hawthorn experiment, and that bit. (laughs) went through all of it. [Male speaker] You spoke earlier about the prejudice, it was in the Air Force during the war, and after the war. How is it now in the Air Force, or at least at the time that you retired? What was the situation, was it still the same amount of prejudice even though the laws have changed and our attitudes have changed? [Crain] When I first went in, as I said

there was prejudice, but we were all young, and you know those things you don't really have the impact, you were aware. We knew we were segregated over here, but so, you know, we had a lot of fun. I'm not sure it really had the impact at that time, because of-- the white girls, we couldn't go to the Officers Club. I always remember, I was in Des Moines, Iowa for 45 months ,and the Colonel made us take up physical education. That is physical training, every Friday evening, for two hours. And then everyone was supposed to go to the officer's club and drink beer and get free sandwiches. But the black officers couldn't go. We had to go to town if we wanted a beer. Well that really hit us, you know. But then we say so, you know, so we went to town and had a beer. And the whole thing was so new, and we knew it was the top. It was not the sausage, you know the other officers, the other enlisted people. because we all felt we were a captive audience you know. And the white girls had the same type of-- they had to scrub floors, just like we had to scrub, you know. And we didn't know

what an Officer's club was anyway. We just knew we couldn't go, and I often wondered what it was. For 45 months, I wondered what on earth an officer's club could be. Until I was sent to Nebraska. When I got to Nebraska, because I was an officer, I had to join the club. And I had to pay $9 a month, and $9 a month out of a Second Lieutenant's pay was a lot of money. So I wish they had segregated me in Nebraska -- [laughter] [laughter continues] [Oleta Crain] So those little things you know, we were aware of, but I've been abused since I've been working with the women's program, because I said I thought things that might have happened to me, happened, I guess because I was black, but I have decided maybe they happened because I was a woman. There were certain jobs in the service of course that you know, we just didn't get. They tell us that when we came in. We couldn't supervise men. And we didn't supervise men until 1949, and we had to make jobs for women. And there were just,

men's jobs and there were women's jobs, and we understood that. [Male speaker] How about recently or at the time that you retired, what was the attitude -- not our attitude, but the real attitude, towards women and particularly black women, in the military? [Oleta Crain] Well, I guess I wasn't really aware that they, the attitude for women because I guess I was culturally conditioned like all other women, and the way they treated women was something that you grew up with. So I don't think I was too aware of that. But I do know that when I was in Europe, I was the only black officer assigned at the headquarters. And what they did was they, was the Air Force took credit for integrating and being the first branch to integrate, and certainly if you went to my headquarters and if you came to my building, then you would have seen me, and you'd say "yes the Air Force is integrated in this building". But if you went to the other thousand buildings you didn't see anyone. And then if you went to

Turkey, there was Colonel ?Kamil? there, and that was all. And if you went to some other base, they integrated us but there were few of us. And so they were here and there, and so you really didn't have an impact. But that was not true in the Army, because you had many more black soldiers and officers. And they were the last to integrate because of the impact. To integrate the officers it meant that they eventually had to supervise and be in charge of white troops. And it took a long time. There was no problem with the Air Force like that because we were too few in number. You always accept it when there's one. You're a novelty if no more. [Fitzhugh] You mentioned something about, you know, when you got out of the service it was-- and you're going to teaching in school. Times were changing, and we know there, the country was-- it was a new country in some ways because you were coming back to it after having been away for a long time, but civilian life was new and the country was going through changes in the '60s certainly. It wasn't-- the question is, I got the impression what you were saying, that there was a transition

point in which you began to think that maybe it was because you were a woman and not because you were black. But in other words, a sort of consciousness of-- [Crain] I didn't think I was black until I came here. [Fitzhugh] Until you came to Boston? [Crain] Yes, when I was appointed Federal Woman's Programs Coordinator. I had never heard of Gloria, what's the name, Steinem. Nor had I heard of Betty Friedan [laughter] Because I had spent my time on the jobs other jobs that I had, and when I became Federal Woman's Programs Coordinator, when I met some of the women that belong to NOW, and fortunately I met a girl by the name of, a lady by the name of Dorothy Amder, who liked me very much, and she was well read. And I think she was kind of shocked at my ignorance, so Dorothy saturated me with books about women. And I used to stay up all night reading these books. And then that's when I first started thinking about things, I hadn't really thought about. These are the things that have always happened to us, and I hadn't really gone so far, to stop to think about when did we lose in our place in the garden. I realized we

have lost our place in the garden, and I don't know why. That really, I'm stunned sometimes as I think of the treatment that women get. It's hard for me to rationalize why all our great men have something in common, a king, a president, a soldier, a statesman, they all have a woman for a mother. But women still are just people that perform a service. And it's hard for me to understand how men can spend so much money, sending their daughters to Harvard and Radcliffe, and Vassar if you please. And they're contented to see their daughters come out and accept jobs as a typist, or a lesser job. That's not clear in my mind. I spoke with some women at Tufts University the other night, and I told them that when they go home they should ask their fathers, who I'm sure, are presumed accomplished, "what are you doing about women?

When I finish what kind of job are you going to give me? Will it be a typist job?" You know they should encourage their fathers to tear down those companies. The Chamber of Commerce brick by brick. And they keep selecting the outstanding man of the year, when you have all these fine young women. And I'm not advocating anything except that, if a woman has to work, and 42 million are working, so we know they have to work, that I think that they all allow them to exploit their talents. And to make as much money as they can, to take care of their necessities. I think it's unfortunate that you spend eight hours a day, and must content yourself with the type of jobs that they offer you and the pay that you get when you have much more to offer. [Fitzhugh] It's an incredible waste of brains. [Crain] It's an incredible waste of everything. [Fitzhugh] Brains, character, and everything else. [Crain] It's a unique phenomenon, when you realize that they, wasted the blacks, were wasted like that, and I'm alarmed realizing that there's not that much difference in the way they treated the blacks

and the way they are treating the women. Really. You know, the women are waking up just as the black did, you know, they started the revolution. And I see changes now. And that's why they appointed Federal Women's Program coordinator because the government hasn't been any better. You know, they hired the first women in civil service in the 1800s and they hired them in the post office, six of them, along the side of a man. The women were given $600 a year at 1800, and the man made $1800 a year. They did the same job. Well If you just think about the constitution that says "all people have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." And men voted, and then they insulted the women by passing the 15th amendment and they gave the black men the right to vote, do they give the women a right to vote? Did they give the black womena right to vote? Of course not. Did they give the white women? Negative. It wasn't until they passed the 19th Amendment that they decided that we could have the right to vote and it's not

to say that when we got the right to vote all we did was elect Calvin Coolidge. [laughter] [more laughter] [coughing] And it's hard for a lot of women to recognize that, because we are culturally conditioned to staying at home in a women's place in a man's world. That's where we all grew up. [Fitzhugh] But that's not quite true for you. I mean like you've been. You've been in a man's world, in the military, and also administration, for a lot of time. And I um... [Oleta Crain] I don't know where I would have been, had I not been in the military. (undistinguishable) I was just lucky. I don't know where I would have been. [Fitzhugh] I don't know exactly what I'm trying to ask, but I suppose it's something to do with-- it's partly what you're doing now and how that relates to what you were doing all along. And certainly, the impression I am getting is that over time you built up a good deal of skill in administration, a good deal of understanding of organization of people's work, things like that. And also

in the courses you mentioned, in your early interest in history, that it seems like you, you sustained an interest in what do I call it? Diplomacy or international relations, the kind of settling of disputes and that kind of thing. And it seems like, is it true, I guess this is the hypothesis I'm working on is that, the kind of, the job that you have now is, it uses a common, uses that combination, the understanding of management of people and the understanding of, of resolution of disputes things like that. I wonder what exactly which one to ask about, because you have so many different things that you're doing. But one of the things you mentioned was the the job that you recently got on the-- it's the the Federal Executive Board? [Oleta Crain] Yes I chair the-- [Fitzhugh] Chairperson? [Crain] Chairperson of the Women's Opportunity Committee. And that's a composition of women from all of the federal agencies in the Boston area. [Fitzhugh] And you're their representative on this-- [Crain] Federal executive board. [Fitzhugh] Federal Executive Board. Which

is heads of, go ahead -- [Crain] I think it's interesting because here, in the Boston region we have about 50 agencies, I suppose, and the head of each agency of course is a man. And they are the ones that form the Federal Executive Board where they make the top policies. And they don't have any females nor blacks on this board. But they did condescend, I shouldn't say condescend, but they did decide to organize a subcommittee that is a women's group and the chairman of that group will be able to meet with the men, every month as they make their policies. So I was selected to be the chairman, and I guess I will meet with them on the 21st and see what these big policies are. (laughter) [Female speaker] I myself have reactions to this. I consider myself in many ways a women's libber, to a certain extent, although I must admit I never joined the bra burning branch. [Oleta Crain] We needed them for attention.

[Female speaker] Oh yeah yeah absolutely, I agree. I guess I'm finding it difficult though to come down as hard as some women do on men, simply because again, as you said, you were raised culturally as a woman. And just as we accepted the role for years and years and years without ever fighting back, the men accepted the role the same way, and it's going to have to be sort of a re-education process for them at the same time it is for us. I think women contributed greatly in keeping themselves down, because they had this anger and resentment built in, took it out on their male sons who in turn-- know so it was a vicious, ongoing type of cycle. I think the male in the working world though, has had an added disadvantage because he's been trained to go out and be the breadwinner. And if he does not make a decent salary, he is a failure. Whereas the woman, it's a luxury, or that's

the way it was presented, and this is man say from 25 years even on up, still have not come to the fact that it is it's perfectly, not emasculating to stay home while the wife goes out and earns $20,000 a year or whatever. I- I just find it difficult to say that it's all men's fault. I think that we women have to take our share of the blame. [Crain] Oh I think, I hope I didn't convey that--. When I talk to men, to the group, I tell them you know all this happened long ago and far away and I go back to 1490 when they burned Joan of Arc at the stake. You know, start it way then. Joan of Arc was quite a lady and she saved France, if you please. They didn't give her a medal, they burned her. Because they thought there was something queer about her. And I told the men it started that back in the days, and these men didn't do that, we are hoping that they will

have the same type of awareness that we are trying to get, because we can't win the war without the men, because men have all the power. That's why I suggested to the girls at Tufts, to go back and talk to their fathers. Because if their fathers start thinking about it, then this is going to help solve our problem. It has to start in the home. You know, they either have to decide, and I'm only to talking about people who have to work. And far be it for me-- if I didn't have to work I would not work, I'd like to do some other things, I wouldn't just sit, but I mean I wouldn't be in the labor market. I'm concerned about people who have to earn a living, and I think what I'm saying is that the men are in power. They have the jobs, and statistics tell me that-- but we know that 95 percent of all jobs that pay $15000 or more are held by white men. So we are only talking about 5 percent of the jobs that should be distributed between the women and the black male.

I mean just 5 percent, that's all we're talking about. What we're saying is this somewhere we're not telling the 95 percent of the jobs that the men have, for them to move over. But I'm saying that when they leave, they are to open it up so that more than 5 percent can, some of them other groups can get in so that they can make a decent living. We can't do anything without the man. But I can't help but you know chide them because I told them that the women help build this country. They didn't bring the sweet young things over here, they brought strong women, who worked side by side with the men. And when I pointed out that when the men became affluent in America, what do they do, they built Harvard and they built Dartmouth and they built Yale, but they'd built them for whom? For men. And then as they became more affluent in the 20th century they built the generals, they built General Motors, and they built General Electric, they built General Dynamics. And for whom? For better jobs for the men. And so we have a continuation of this. But what I'm saying is that somewhere along the line, our fathers and our brothers

who are-- who have daughters, must decide that "if my daughter has to work what type of job should she have? That shouldn't-- doesn't she have the right to the job in which she's prepared?" And he has to help fight for that, the same as the mother has to fight for it. I mean, this is all we're saying. [Female speaker] Yeah, I guess I didn't mean to imply, by the way that you were coming off this way. I'm trying to-- I think I think you know, I think the men deal with a tremendous amount of fear. You know I-- just presenting it the way you're saying, you know, to go home and ask-- If she were a twin, he would give the job to the brother, it would just be automatic. [Crain] Well we have a case now where a daughter is suing her father: she-- he hired her as a secretary and her brother as a manager. And she's developing some statistics now, and she is going to sue her father. But right, discrimination. And sometimes I say it's good to discriminate, because I said if

I had an equal employment opportunity officer in the White House perhaps there would be women in the Watergate bit. [laughter] Since they didn't give us sometimes, this is pretty good. I don't know where it all the ends but you know we talk about the welfare rolls and we talk about this, but you have to analyze why so many women are on welfare and most of the people are on welfare are women, and women with children. And if the women could get some good jobs, decent paying jobs and what I'm saying is in the construction field, in the electronics field, in the mechanical field, where they pay for $4 and $5 an hour, this would take them off welfare. This will help them have a decent living. I mean to me it's as simple as that. We know that everybody can't make $15,000 but then if they can make $12,000 why not? And they shouldn't be denied that just because they're a woman but you see, it's been my experience that when a man has a vacancy, and it's the man that had the job since

the dispense? when they hire women, I think a woman is an extension of his wife. You know, he immediately thinks that the woman will provide a service. But men are getting away from that now, because the government is seeing to it, they're becoming conscious of this, and it's interesting in the federal government you know, to see the affirmative action plan, how the men are reacting. And they are trying to promote the women for the most part. We still have some, like the Coast Guard, but they haven't come through yet. They haven't regarded the women as anything else other than women. [Female speaker] How is your office dealing with the normal type of argument that you get in terms of "well you may get married, or you may get pregnant, or you're going to take two years off to raise your child" and things like that, because that's the standard-- [Crain] We are right now, we just met and we were reviewing the maternity regulations in the federal, federal personnel manual. And we are recommending that they completely eliminate any reference to pregnancy in the manual, because we

feel that if a woman is pregnant, that it should be treated the same as if a man broke his leg. If a man on duty broke his leg, he's given all the leave that he needs until his leg gets well, or repaired. And they don't make a big deal about it except to tell him they're sorry. And we feel that if a woman didn't get pregnant then what'll happen to the race? What'll happen to humanity? [Fitzhugh] We'll all be sorry. [Crain] And they act as if this is really something like unique phenomenon. "We don't want to hire her because she's going to get pregnant," I told them that "of course she's going to get pregnant, if she's married and wants a baby." You know, she didn't get pregnant by herself. [laughter] They don't understand that. So I think they should give any young woman who comes to work, and they know if we hire anyone from 18 up through 30 that of course she's liable to get pregnant. Why shouldn't she? And why doesn't she have the privilege to go off and have a baby and come back to work? And this is the thing that we are saying, that a woman should have

that privilege, a right to her job, when she comes back. A soldier can go off to war and spend-- a male can go off to war and spend 10 years. He has a right to his job when he comes back. And he's welcomed back, so why wouldn't he want to be welcomed back? They look on ya'll, "we can't hire her, look at her, she's going to get pregnant." And he's probably a father of 10 children already. [laughter] So I really want to understand the rationale and that type of thinking. And this is the thing we find that between 18 and 24 women come into the labor market and then they leave, and then they get married and they have their family and at about 34 they find that they, either-- you know if they are able to stay out that long, then for the most part their children have grown up and what's the woman going to do? So she comes back into the labor market, and as I said if you're 26 and a half you're too old for America, of course. This is a youth-oriented society. And once they come back into

the labor market at 34 they're mighty old, they're ancient the way America feels and their skills are rusty. And maybe they don't have any skills and so they find that they must take the, what we call the "there till they get there" jobs. There's nothing wrong with the jobs, the jobs have to be performed, and I'm not against the jobs. Because some of the jobs that the women do if the women would walk off the job as a typist, the government would have to close their doors because they're the most important people there, but they just don't pay them enough.