American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Charles Person, 2 of 2

[Interviewer]: We were talking about that- [Interviewer]: We were talking about that first three days and you were saying how, you know, it was like a piece of cake. So just tell me that story. How did you- Talk about what happened on those first three days, which was nothing happened. [Person] The first three days of the ride was uneventful, and basically it was a piece of cake. We realized, you know, this is not going to be as bad as we thought. And each evening we would always review the day's events, you know, just to bring each other up, because we were always separated into two groups -- and since you were going to be changing buses the next day, it just lets you know what happened on their bus. And this prepared us for the next, for the next day's ride. [Interviewer] And when you met, it was said that it was a piece of cake? [Person] It was a piece of cake. [Interviewer] You kind of stopped in the middle there, so you met and you compared notes. "So we met... [Person] We, uh, compared notes, and if there was any violence or any incidents that we experienced, we shared those with each other, which made us, all of us,

know what was going- everyone knew what was going on. [Interviewer] What did you learn from talking to the other group? [Person] Well, we knew the attitudes of, say, the other type bus drivers on the other line. We knew what we might expect at, say, at a Trailways versus a Greyhound. Those kinds of things, because, you know, they were- they were both bus lines, but they were also competitors. And there were some things that were similar and some things that were not similar. [Interviewer] I guess I'm trying to get you to say is, Charles, is that you met, and it seemed pretty good, right? So why don't you tell me that. [Person] You know, each evening, you know, we had nothing eventful to discuss, so it was, you know, it was good. Everything was going well, and we figured if we could do this all the way through them no we wouldn't have achieved what we're set up to do, which is to prove, or disprove, that Blacks could

ride throughout the South without incident. [Interviewer] Um, do you think in a way what you guys wanted was trouble? That, you know, that since you knew that these places were segregated, mostly segregated, you had just come up, so you knew it. I mean, in some ways what you wanted was trouble to publicize the problem, right? [Person] Right. If they had been smart and just let us travel and served us, the world would have said, "Tsk -- there's nothing to it." Because they reacted the way they did, it showed the world that traveling throughout the South was not easy for people of color. [Interviewer] So talk about get to Atlanta, and, you know, now you're going into Alabama. So you're in Atlanta. What- was there a thought that maybe things were going to change at all? [Person] Well, I- Dr. King met with us, with the leadership of the ride, and

told them that he didn't believe we would be as successful, and as peaceful as it had been early on. So, James Farmer, the leader, he was aware that trouble might be awaiting us in Birm- in, in Alabama and beyond. [Interviewer] But James Farmer was not- he got out of the ride? What happened to him? [Person] What happened that night he got word, I think his father was ill, and he had to leave. So he didn't make the trip the next day with us. [Interviewer] Ok, I'm going to ask you that again, and if you could say "James," say his name. Say, "The night we were in Atlanta, James Farmer..." So what happened in Atlanta? [Person] In Atlanta, uh, James Farmer had met with Dr. King and his staff, and they had been informed that trouble was awaiting us in Alabama and beyond. James Farmer, of course, was one of the leaders of the CORE organization. [Interviewer] And what happened to him? [Person] And he had to leave that

night, because he had received word of his father's illness. [Interviewer] So in other words, you got word that there's going to be trouble, and at the same time, the leader of the riot has to leave. Is that true? [Person] Yeah, that's true. James had to leave us the night before we embarked for Birmingham. [Interviewer] Doesn't sound so good; sounds like, you know, the leader's leaving, trouble's coming. Is that-? [Person] Well, we were seasoned riders, and, you know, we were seasoned in the movement, so, uh, you know, we had to continue. It wasn't- you know, we all had things to do. And each had responsibilities going on a ride. See, each bus had testers -- I mean, everyone was involved in some phase of the activities -- but there were generally two active testers on each bus, and the others just, I was on the seating arrangements on how they sat on the bus. [Interviewer] Ok, so you're in- you leave Atlanta.

What happens as you're leaving Atlanta for Alabama, going into Alabama? [Person] When we left Atlanta, everything was nice, as always. The only indication that I had that anything might be going wrong was we got near the Alabama border at one of the little way stops. And a man got off the bus, and he was in bib overalls. And he looks at us, and he says: "You niggers have had it good here in Georgia, but just wait until you get to Alabama." That kind of troubled me a little bit, because, you know, what did he know that we didn't know? And that was only just, actually, just an hour or so ride from Anniston. But he got off there, and it's a little small town. I can't recall the name, but it was right on the Georgia-Alabama border. [Interviewer] So what were you thinking? [Person] Well first of all, who is this guy? And we later found out who he was, but at the time we had no idea. I had no idea who he was. [Interview] Talk to me about what happened when you got to Anniston.

[Person] When we got to Anniston, uh, there were some- several strange things that happened. One was the terminal itself was not open. The bus driver got off, and he approached several men who were standing outside, and they talked. And the bus driver got back on the bus, and he says that the other bus of Freedom Riders had been burned, and he wasn't going anywhere until the niggers got in the back of the bus. And of course we sat where we were -- we weren't going anywhere. And then the men he had been talking to got aboard the bus, and they started punching us ferociously. James Peck and Walter Bergman had gone to get refreshments, and they beat them unmercifully. In fact, they were both lying

end they're in them middle of the bus and then they proceeded to toss into what if students over them, and they tossed us physically to the back of the bus. And once they had gotten the bus the way they wanted it to, the bus driver came on, and we proceeded to Birmingham. [Interview] Talk about the beatings -- get in as close as you can -- talk about the beatings that you got from a personal standpoint, and what you saw them do to Peck and Bergman. [Person] Well since my seat was always the first one on the left, uh, they punched me in the face and- repeatedly. And the other student, they punched him as well. And then when the Bergmans came to our defense, they realized that, you know, here's a nigger lover, so they really was very ferocious when they beat them. In fact, they beat Walter as he laid on the ground, and, you know, he suffered injuries that he sustained for the rest of his life. Uh, James Peck, he was beaten, he was bloodied -- but he

was still, he was still conscious, and he was still able to carry out his duties once we got to Birmingham. [Interviewer] So you're still on the bus, and these guys are just beating you, beating you as you sit on the bus. [Person] It's, uh, it's- you know, I had never experienced anything like that in my life. There had been other movement activities, but never has the ferocity been as it was that particular day. They were just- it was like animals, you know, they were really- let's put it like this, they were very, very angry with us for whatever reason. They were very, very angry. [Interviewer] So, the bus continues on now, you guys are half-conscious and beat up on the bus. What happened when you got to Birmingham? [Person] When we got to Birmingham, James and I, James Peck and I we were scheduled to test the facilities. So he looked at me and I looked at him, and we proceeded to go into the terminal. When we got into the terminal, the wall was surrounded by men, and they all came towards us. And they

just started beating on us, and James went down almost immediately. Then they punched me and punched me and they hit me in the back of the head with something, and, you know, the blood started running. And after a while, they just stopped beating me, and I walked away. I walked from the terminal out to the street, and as luck would have it or fate, a city bus driver came down. And he stopped, and I got on, and I said, "Take me somewhere." And he drove several blocks, and he says, told me to get off the bus and go across the track. He says somebody will help you over there. I got across the tracks, and I called Reverend Shuttlesworth's house and told him what had happened and that we needed help. So he sent a driver to pick me up. They brought me back to his church, and they realized I was bleeding too badly, and they needed- I needed help. So there were three doc- black doctors in Birmingham, and they took me to the first one,

and he refused to treat me. They went to the second one, and he refused to treat me, so they just brought me back to, um, the church area, and a nurse in his congregation put a special kind of bandage on that would kind of pull the wound together, and that was the only treatment I really received for the wounds that I received that day. [Interviewer] So you say you went to two black doctors and they refused to treat you? [Person] They refused to treat me. [Interviewer] Why? [Person] They probably would have lost their license. [Interviewer] Okay, got it. ?inaudible [Person] Uh, we felt that the reason they we would not treat mainly this was because they would have lost the license. The white- I couldn't go to the white hospital. We didn't even try that -- we knew that was out. So, uh, I hear, you know, they considered us rabble rousers, outsiders, so, you know, I can understand. I mean now I understand. At the time, you know, when you're bleeding and so forth, there is, you know, doctors are trained to treat those folks who are injured, and as a young person I couldn't understand that. But as I've gotten older, I understand more. [Interviewer] So even the black doctors couldn't treat you? [Person] No. [Interviewer] Tell me that.

[Person] Even the black doctors would not and could not, well, would not treat me. They could have, and I mean they were skilled, because they s- their practice was there, that was that community in Birmingham, they serviced that community. But being an outsider, as they saw me, they refused to treat me. [Interviewer] What was the role of Governor Patterson in all this? [Person] Well, he considered us- [Interviewer] You've got to say "Governor Patterson." [Person] Governor Patterson considered us as outsiders. We were there to stir up trouble, and, you know, and so forth. That was his take on the riders. He was well aware that we were coming, just like the FBI knew that we were, they had a copy of our itinerary, they knew what the deal was. But the politicians in those days had a stance. They had a personal stance, but also to be successful in the South as a segregationist, you had to espouse certain things. If you wanted to be a successful politician, you had to carry the party line, which in those days was, you know, segregation. [Interviewer] Cut for a second.

[Interviewer] When did you learn what had happened to the other bus? [Person] We didn't know the extent. All we knew then that something had happened on the on the bus at the publisher it conveyed to a set in in Anniston, but no one knew the extent and how it could have happened. And the thought that they would burn a Greyhound bus? You know, that was unfathomable, you know, but that was what we had been informed. [Interviewer] So they never took you to the hospital? [Person] No. [Interviewer] Do you remember- what's your memory of what happened next? So you go, they treat your wounds -- what happened next? [Person] While at Reverend Shuttlesworth's place, they were trying to find out all the status and condition of all the other people. Most of the other riders had smoke inhalation. Mr. Bergman was-

his face was all puffy and swollen. And, of course, James -- I knew he was going to require stitches, but he ended up getting 53 stitches. And they didn't want to treat him at the hospital, but they did. And the other- I didn't know at that time the status of the other riders, because the other riders who had a role, a lesser role, you know, they weren't testers for that day, and they were just riders and observers. And that was another thing -- their job was to make sure the word got out if something happened. Like say if we had been abducted or anything like that, at least someone would have known your whereabouts. And in many cases, they rode typically as black riders, they generally sat i sat in the back of the bus and they were supposed to do, and they were more or less observers. And also we had reporters on each bus from the Baltimore American and we had two- a photographer and a writer from Jet

and there was one from one other magazine. [Interviewer] Um, do you remember how the decision was reached to stop the rides, call off the rides? [Person] I- that was made at a higher level meeting, but- by the CORE staff, but I think we were just so weary. You gotta realize James had received 53 stitches. Mr. Walter Bergman was, was in bad shape. I was in pretty bad shape. We were pretty much traumatized. You had almost everyone on the other bus receive smoke inhalation. So that was our whole group. So you're looking at almost 10 of the 13 riders, original 13 riders, because James Farmer was not there. So, uh, out of 12 riders, 10 were almost incapacitated, so that was why the decision was made that we could no longer continue. But thank God that Diane decided to keep the rides going. [Interviewer] How did you feel when you were told the decision was made? Were you happy? [Person] We were very happy, because we didn't want it to end like that because - [Interviewer] No, not Diane. I don't want to talk about Diane. When

you were told that the decision was made to stop the rides- [Person] We were disappointed. We did not- [Interviewer] I'm sorry, you have to say- I'm sorry let's stop. Rolling? [Person] When it was decided by the CORE staff that the rides could no longer continue, we were disappointed. We did not want the rides to end that way. We were close to getting to Mississippi and for the rally in New Orleans, and, uh, as beaten, as weary as we were, we wanted to continue. But the staff made the decision, because we were a little raggedy bunch by this time. [Interviewer] Ok, let's cut. The fact that your mother didn't know that you went on the Freedom Rides. Did your mother know? [Person] No, and when we arrived in Atlanta I asked the leadership if I could go home and spend some time with my family, and at that time

I informed my mother what we were involved in and what had happened prior to us getting to Atlanta and asked her permission, uh, to continue. I told her there might be violence -- we had heard words that things were going to get a little rough in Alabama -- and she just gave me God's blessings, and she allowed me to continue the ride. [Interviewer] Did she give you a big hug and kiss? [Person] That's Mama. [Interviewer] Talk to- talk about what happens. So you guys have decided now to abandon the rides, and now you're just trying to get out of Alabama to New Orleans. What happened at the airport? [Person] Okay first we all, we tried to go by bus and the bus drivers refused to travel. They were not going to travel with Freedom Riders on the bus at all so then we opted to fly and we go to the airport and there's all kinds of strange people; there were a lot of FBI agents which we didn't know at the time. We get on board and there's a bomb threat; we have to get off the plane of course

they search the plane and so forth. I mean this goes on and finally we get a chance to leave and this is my first airplane flight; I've never flown before in my life and I must have watched the engines all the way into New Orleans. It's just that reaction to your first flight but it was nice to leave because as we took off to see the crowd on the ground and realize that we at least were flying to safety was really a good feeling [Interviewer] Uh I just need you to say you know something about you made the decision to call off the rides but they won't let you even get the bus out [Person] The decision had been made that we were not going to continue to ride but we were going to go ahead and ride to New Orleans for the rally on the seventeenth of May um but um, bus drivers refused to take us out. They were not going to ride, leave, ah, Birmingham with Freedom Riders on the bus. So therefore we ah, opted to ah fly to New

Orleans and ah, when we got to the terminal, we're sitting there we got tickets and uh they process us through we get ready to um, we embarked get to- to get on the plane and there's a bomb threat, so of course we have to get off the plane and wait while they searched the plane and after a while, ah the plane was clean and we were allowed to ah, get- get you know, back on the plane, and from there, we flew on to New Orleans. [Interviewer] Ok, ok, I think that's it. ?inaudible? the peaks [papers rustle]